Carl and Mike's relationship

[KittyKat]

On the other hand, Brian is/always has been also obsessed/concerned with wanting to be commercial and he has said it publically. Neither one considers commercial a dirty word, that commercial is a dirty word is a figment of our own imaginations/sensibilities. They have both always wanted to be artfully commercial.

Exactly. Brian was never happy if the Beach Boys didn't sell.  One could make the argument that Brian Wilson was the most commercial of all Beach Boys. He was actually better at being commercial than Mike Love.

[Doo Dah]

On the other hand, Brian is/always has been also obsessed/concerned with wanting to be commercial and he has said it publically. Neither one considers commercial a dirty word, that commercial is a dirty word is a figment of our own imaginations/sensibilities. They have both always wanted to be artfully commercial.

Exactly. Brian was never happy if the Beach Boys didn't sell.  One could make the argument that Brian Wilson was the most commercial of all Beach Boys. He was actually better at being commercial than Mike Love.

Don't have the exact quote handy, but the Uncut interview circa '98 (the one with Sean Hagen, Bruce, etc.). Brian tells Sean "can we get Carol? can we get Hal for the sessions? If we do, we'll have a number one record!" He's then told by Melinda I believe - "Brian you don't have to make a number one record...just make the record YOU want to make." To which Brian responds - "you mean you don't want a number one record?"

It's funny, it's sad...it's just Brian!

I bet he wouldn't have enjoyed BWPS half as much if it didn't do as respectably in the charts. He obviously puts a lot of weight on that stuff.

[Cam Mott]

It seems to me that they all want to be commercial and that is what they are striving for with their art. The idea that we project our ideas on them and claim this one is a goose but that one is a gander for the same good-for-them seems...I don't know...not pointless...but not necessary.

[Nicko1234]

Don't have the exact quote handy, but the Uncut interview circa '98 (the one with Sean Hagen, Bruce, etc.). Brian tells Sean "can we get Carol? can we get Hal for the sessions? If we do, we'll have a number one record!" He's then told by Melinda I believe - "Brian you don't have to make a number one record...just make the record YOU want to make." To which Brian responds - "you mean you don't want a number one record?"

It's funny, it's sad...it's just Brian!

I bet he wouldn't have enjoyed BWPS half as much if it didn't do as respectably in the charts. He obviously puts a lot of weight on that stuff.

I think it was Sean O'Hagan himself (could be wrong) who said they didn't have to have a number one record. I think Bruce's advice of 'Talk corporate. The Beach Boys like corporate.' said everything really.

I agree that Brian puts a huge weight on chart positions. Before BWPS was released he was saying in the press how badly he wanted it to be a hit.

The C50 album probably had a fair bit to do with being able to make a hit group record rather than a miss solo album.

[Cam Mott]

Anyways I bet there is a lot more sympatico between Carl and Mike [and Brian and Dennis] on the deep levels like the music and commerciality than many of us are ready to recognize. They are first cousins and grew up making music together after all.  My impression has always been that they had love and respect for each other.

[Micha]

I'm late chiming in here, but I have to agree with those who say the use of the word "commercial" as a qualitative exercise in an interview is actually a significant indicator of where Mike's head at, and pointing it out isn't obsessing at all.  And before all of Mike's defenders jump all over me, look:  credit the guy for saying what he thinks even when it isn't "cool" to do so.  Because that's exactly what he's doing here.

...

You just didn't SAY that in an interview, because to say that meant you valued commercial success over artistic success or "feel".  It puts you squarely in a certain kind of camp and ironically, in 1992, to say something like that puts you out of the mainstream.  So it betrays a lack of perspective and understanding of the true commercial landscape on Mike's part.  Like many of Mike's statements over the years, he boldly says things that, while you can defend them on their merits if you choose to, make him sound out of touch and, occasionally, a bit douchey.  It's kind of a "tin ear" effect.  Again, if you are a Mike defender, credit the man for not giving a sh*t and saying what he thinks and leaving it at that.

I am sort of a Mike defender, but mostly because many attacks against him seem so irrational to me. If only everybody here would bring their points forward as civilized as you do, this board would be a much better place. The points you bring forward against Mike don't have that attack attitude, so I can heartily agree with you even as a "Mike defender".

[Chocolate Shake Man]

On the other hand, Brian is/always has been also obsessed/concerned with wanting to be commercial and he has said it publically. Neither one considers commercial a dirty word, that commercial is a dirty word is a figment of our own imaginations/sensibilities. They have both always wanted to be artfully commercial.

Exactly. Brian was never happy if the Beach Boys didn't sell.  One could make the argument that Brian Wilson was the most commercial of all Beach Boys. He was actually better at being commercial than Mike Love.

Absolutely he was better at it and probably because he didn't equate commercialism with quality, as Mike does. If he did, he probably wouldn't have made Good Vibrations or Pet Sounds, for that matter. Yes, I'm sure Brian really wanted them to do well in the charts - he probably wanted everything he ever did to do well in the charts. Who wouldn't? Nevertheless he still often did what he wanted to do with the hopes that an audience would be there but never catering to some fictional audience of pop listeners. Take a look at some of the albums Brian has listed as his favourites: Friends, Love You, etc. Obviously he evaluates his own work on merits other than commercial potential. I don't get the sense that Mike does.

[Cam Mott]

I'm convinced Brian never did/does anything without the intention it be commercial. And Mike/Al/Carl/Dennis/Bruce does the same as Brian, he puts his best out there with the intention it be commercial. In the early years their ideas of commercial and art coincided with popular taste and then later neither one of their ideas of art coincided with being commercial except for a few rare exceptions. They both [all] see commercial as a noble goal I imagine because they are in the Popular Music business. 

[Chocolate Shake Man]

They both [all] see commercial as a noble goal I imagine because they are in the Popular Music business. 

So is, say, Neil Young but he doesn't consider "commercial" as a noble goal, and I would agree with him. However, I get the point that you keep making. I'm not sure how it is a response to what others are saying, though.

[Cam Mott]

That's OK 'cuz I get the point you keep making but I'm not sure how others' are a response to what I am saying.

[Sheriff John Stone]

I'm convinced Brian never did/does anything without the intention it be commercial.  

Absolutely. Brian was competing against Phil Spector and The Beatles for hit singles and popularity.

Brian created this artistic masterpiece with Pet Sounds, but expressed disappointment because of its underwhelming sales.

One of the reasons that Brian scrapped SMiLE was because he felt that the listening public wouldn't "get" it, which is another way of saying they wouldn't buy it.

After the SMiLE debacle, sprinkled among Brian's dwindling output were these commercial singles - "Darlin", "Do It Again", "Marcella", "Sail On Sailor", and, yes, even "Child Of Winter". Brian never stopped trying for that hit single.

When Brian "came back" in 1976, he had one goal in mind - to produce hit singles and hit albums for The Beach Boys. From 1976 until, well, That's Why God Made The Radio, Brian didn't release one deep, artistic, song with The Beach Boys. But, I think there were a lot of fans who would've welcomed one. I, for one, was hoping and waiting for Brian's Pacific Ocean Blue.  

[SMiLE Brian]

"Night was so young" was a deep artistic song, same with "my Diane"

[Sheriff John Stone]

"Night was so young" was a deep artistic song, same with "my Diane"

While I love "The Night Was So Young"; it's one of my favorite Love You songs, and I like "My Diane" very much; it's one of the best M.I.U. songs though I do think it is slightly overrated....I don't think of them as complex, deep, artistic cuts, but more simplistic verse/chorus/verse type love songs - not that those songs can't be arty....I'm thinking more of songs like "Time To Get Alone", "Til I Die", This Whole World", "Day In The Life Of A Tree", heck I might even throw in "A Mess Of Help To Stand Alone". And those Pacific Ocean Blue songs. I bought that album when it came out in 1977, and for some reason, many times when I listen to that album, I think of Brian. And I would think, gee Brian, didn't that wake you up, didn't that motivate you, didn't that show you the possibilities, you know, just a little friendly brother-to-brother competition. Just my opinion.

[SMiLE Brian]

I think Brian did the best he could with his mental issues in my opinion. I mean how productive are you going to be with the voices of "Phil Spector and Murry Wilson" buzzing in your head 24/7. Adult Child's new tracks like "still I dream of it" showed Brian's muse was still there for great music.

[clack]

Listen, of course Mike and Brian and Carl wanted to make hit records. (Did even Mike make a record as egregiously faddish as 'Smart Girls?')

But to get back to Mike's comment : Carl's vocals on SIP are "the most commercial he's ever done". That remark is obtuse on several levels.

1) Mike had no idea what was "commercial" (actually Nirvana, grunge, U2) in 1992 rock.
2) What does he even mean by "most commercial" vocals? More commercial than GV? What attributes constitute a commercial vocal, anyway?
3) And of course, Mike is demonstrably wrong. SIP was a huge flop -- nothing was "commercial" about that lp.

Rather than demonstrating Mike's commercial acumen, Mike's comment showed how out of touch with contemporary musical tastes and trends he really was.

(And no, I'm not a Mike hater. I love the Beach Boys, and Mike is a Beach Boy).

[Nicko1234]

After the SMiLE debacle, sprinkled among Brian's dwindling output were these commercial singles - "Darlin", "Do It Again", "Marcella", "Sail On Sailor", and, yes, even "Child Of Winter". Brian never stopped trying for that hit single.

I'm not sure Marcella or Sail on Sailor were really Brian attempts. He had very little to do with the recording of them after all.

I think it's true what Jeff Foskett has said about Mike being a performer. Mike probably wouldn't describe himself as an artist and thinks about pop music as something that should connect with as many listeners as possible. He wants success rather than respect which is fair enough. He got it wrong with Summer in Paradise though clearly.

Interestingly Melinda said that Carl's reason for quitting the sessions with Don Was in the 1990s was that the music wasn't commercial enough. I haven't heard any of the Don Was productions and he may well have been right but it suggests he and Mike weren't a million miles apart.

[adamghost]

Listen, of course Mike and Brian and Carl wanted to make hit records. (Did even Mike make a record as egregiously faddish as 'Smart Girls?')

But to get back to Mike's comment : Carl's vocals on SIP are "the most commercial he's ever done". That remark is obtuse on several levels.

1) Mike had no idea what was "commercial" (actually Nirvana, grunge, U2) in 1992 rock.
2) What does he even mean by "most commercial" vocals? More commercial than GV? What attributes constitute a commercial vocal, anyway?
3) And of course, Mike is demonstrably wrong. SIP was a huge flop -- nothing was "commercial" about that lp.

Rather than demonstrating Mike's commercial acumen, Mike's comment showed how out of touch with contemporary musical tastes and trends he really was.

(And no, I'm not a Mike hater. I love the Beach Boys, and Mike is a Beach Boy).

AND it followed on to the topic of how qualitatively GOOD Carl's vocals were...with "commercial"-sounding being the highest praise in that regard.

[adamghost]

Yeah, everything that's been posted above is a fair statement.  Again, and I'm speaking as someone who has been "on the inside" to a minor level, there's the commercial calculations you put into your art, which everybody who is trying to make a living does or SHOULD do, and then there's the level to which you TALK about it publicly, and make commercialism your guiding star.  They seem like the same thing but they are not.  Anybody who ever got onstage has to think about how their music is going to translate to the crowd...and Mike being the consummate frontman that he is, that's front and center in his reality.  He's not necessarily going to grasp the subtler long-term aspects of how a band positions itself or comes across -- which is ALSO a commercial consideration, just not as immediate as the other.

If this is a little too hard to follow, let me put it this way:  talking about being "commercial" in an interview is an uncommercial thing to do.  It affects perception of the band adversely and that trickles down to how magazines review you, what stations add you, etc.  There's a whole 'nuther level of what is and isn't "commercial" that is all about such winks and nudges and how the band's image is conveyed.  So there's an ignorance of that level of how the game is played. 

Yeah, all bands think about the marketplace, even if it's to think about how to turn it against itself (e.g. punk).  But you aren't supposed to live by it, or talk about it, because you're "the artist".  Them's "the rules."

[oldsurferdude]

Consummate frontman? WTF? He's a dirty old (rich) man! Beach Boys never needed a "front man". Just get out there and play the crap outta the songs and skip all the corn fed banter. 

[Wah Wah Wah Ooooo]

Consummate frontman? WTF? He's a dirty old (rich) man! Beach Boys never needed a "front man". Just get out there and play the crap outta the songs and skip all the corn fed banter. 

I'm not a big Mike Love defender, but I think you're wrong there...Mike Love is a great frontman. Cheesy? Corny? Hell yes...but that's been part of The Beach Boys from Day Freaking One....Mike Love and his slightly cornball personality has always been part of the band. You can't have it both ways: It's either The Beach Boys with Mike Love and all that comes with it, or no Beach Boys. Brian IS the Beach Boys. Yeah, I've heard that quote and agree with it to an extent, but Terry Melcher was right in Endless Harmony when he said "There's a definite Mike Love element to the Beach Boys."

[cablegeddon]

What Mike's hopes for SIP failed to take into account was that pop radio had changed dramatically since Kokomo hit #1.

He also couldn't admit that maybe, just maybe, Kokomo was a fluke.

A no.1 song and a platinum album is historic.

Getcha back reached #26, Still cruisin reached #9 on Adult contemporary radio (just a quick look at wikipedia).....

Why is it a fluke?

[SMiLE Brian]

I wonder if Mike still rubs Kokomo in Brian's face like its 1988.

[cablegeddon]

I wonder if Mike still rubs Kokomo in Brian's face like its 1988.

So now all of a sudden it's a bad thing to write a no.1 song?

[Chocolate Shake Man]

What Mike's hopes for SIP failed to take into account was that pop radio had changed dramatically since Kokomo hit #1.

He also couldn't admit that maybe, just maybe, Kokomo was a fluke.

A no.1 song and a platinum album is historic.

Getcha back reached #26, Still cruisin reached #9 on Adult contemporary radio (just a quick look at wikipedia).....

Why is it a fluke?

Well, for one, we're not talking about A/C chart numbers. Kokomo went to #1 in the Billboard Chart where Still Cruisin reached #93. Apart from Rock and Roll Music which was also somewhat of a fluke hit, riding the coattails of Endless Summer and a renewed Beach Boys mania, the boys hadn't had a top 10 hit in the States in over 20 years, let alone a number one, which is significantly more difficult to achieve than a #26, a chart position they managed to beat 7 times in the years since Good Vibrations. Had Kokomo reached #26 I wouldn't have called it a fluke success - it wouldn't have been out of the ordinary at all.

Kokomo came at a very lucky time - it was right at the time of about five years or so in the mid to late 80s when the baby boomers were nostalgic for the 60s (i.e. their own youth which they were just beginning to realize was gone) - thus, the era saw massive hits by people who hadn't had massive hits like that in years - (Paul Simon's Graceland (#3 - 1986), George Harrison's "Got My Mind Set On You" (#1 - 1987), Neil Young's "Rockin' in the Free World" (#2 - 1989), Roy Orbison's "You Got It" (#9 - 1989), etc.). On top of that, it was also a huge time for that kind of song due to the rise in popularity of "island"-theme music ("Hands Up", "Montego Bay", "Hot Hot Hot", "Conga"). Kokomo kind of occupied the space where these two colliding sensations met. And, then, to solidify things it was part of a soundtrack to a box office smash which itself cashed in on what was then a popular trend of island-themed music. The soundtrack produced a few big hits (Don't Worry, Be Happy - anyone???).

[Nicko1234]

Well, for one, we're not talking about A/C chart numbers. Kokomo went to #1 in the Billboard Chart where Still Cruisin reached #93. Apart from Rock and Roll Music which was also somewhat of a fluke hit, riding the coattails of Endless Summer and a renewed Beach Boys mania, the boys hadn't had a top 10 hit in the States in over 20 years, let alone a number one, which is significantly more difficult to achieve than a #26, a chart position they managed to beat 7 times in the years since Good Vibrations. Had Kokomo reached #26 I wouldn't have called it a fluke success - it wouldn't have been out of the ordinary at all.

Kokomo came at a very lucky time - it was right at the time of about five years or so in the mid to late 80s when the baby boomers were nostalgic for the 60s (i.e. their own youth which they were just beginning to realize was gone) - thus, the era saw massive hits by people who hadn't had massive hits like that in years - (Paul Simon's Graceland, George Harrison's "Got My Mind Set On You" [#1 - 1987], Neil Young's "Rockin' in the Free World" (#2 - 1989), Roy Orbison's "You Got It" (#9 - 1989), etc.). On top of that, it was also a huge time for that kind of song due to the rise in popularity of "island"-theme music ("Hands Up", "Montego Bay", "Hot Hot Hot", "Conga"). Kokomo kind of occupied the space where these two colliding sensations met. And, then, to solidify things it was part of a soundtrack to a box office smash which itself cashed in on what was then a popular trend of island-themed music. The soundtrack produced a few big hits (Don't Worry, Be Happy - anyone???).

I don't think either Rock and Roll Music or Kokomo were a fluke exactly.

Rock and Roll Music was a hit because the Brian is Back campaign was a stroke of genius in terms of publicity. I think the song is crap but it certainly wasn't a fluke.

With Kokomo The Beach Boys had clearly realized that the idea of doing duets and movie soundtracks was their best chance of chart success (hence Wipeout also being a big hit). Nothing accidental about that. Kokomo is a much catchier song than Chasing the Sky, Happy Endings, Still Cruisin' etc. and it was in a bigger movie. The soundtrack idea was a good one commercially and there was always the possibility that one movie they recorded a song for would be a box office success.

Anyway, there is no way that you can expect the singer and co-writer of the song to say, 'Our biggest hit was a complete stroke of luck'. Not realistic at all.