Carl and Mike's relationship

[Rocker]

The only debatable thing in that interview imo is:

So we've actually been having group meetings between Carl, myself and Al with the psychiatrist Howard Bloomfield, who's a good friend of mine and a board member of the Love Foundation, and we've done a lot of healing kind of things, airing grievances and working things out.


If I were a clear thinking human being (and no Beach Boy) I would believe that having a friend of yours as your psychiatrist is not an advising situation.


Regarding the other stuff: Mike is praising Carl's and Al's voices. Nothing wrong with that. They both sound fantastic on the SIP album. No need to see something in Mike's words that isn't there

[hypehat]

I just find it funny that a bunch of nobodies go on and on about a man who is more successful than they'll probably ever be...Michael really cares what people have to say about him, but he can't hear the bullshit over the sound of thousands of adoring fans night after night.

Remind me to use this line on you if we ever argue about Barack Obama again 

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Mike thought Carl was artfully commercial.

He doesn't say anything about being artful in the quotation we're discussing. Does he use the term "artfully commercial" elsewhere?

Isn't that the point in Popular Music. Commercial is not a bad word in Popular Music. You don't get to express yourself long in Popular Music if you aren't commercial and popular. Imo.

Depends. There are commercial artists who have had a long shelf life. There are commercial artists who had a very short shelf life. There are non-commercial artists like, say, The Velvet Underground who have achieved long term success. Pet Sounds was at one point considered not commercial and now it's the most commercial Beach Boys original LP. You're right that commercial is not a bad word in Pop music. However, it is a useless term because the people who seem to really care about what is commercial like, say, music executives and Mike Love, haven't much of a clue about it. They don't really know what it is and they don't know how to make it, which is why they sometimes get lucky and sometimes fail spectacularly. Meanwhile artists achieve real success without seeming to care about what is commercial and what isn't. So, as far as I'm concerned when someone judges things on the basis of its commerciality, I am afraid I find it to be at best a trivial observation and at worst a betrayal of one's own ignorance.

[Cam Mott]

OK, we'll just continue to disagree.

[Nicko1234]

He doesn't say anything about being artful in the quotation we're discussing. Does he use the term "artfully commercial" elsewhere?

You don't think you might be obsessing too much over a quote from decades ago again do you? 

[Chocolate Shake Man]

 

It's only a matter of time before I analyze Mike Love's remarks on TV show Quantum Leap.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

We need to keep in mind that Mike is a guy who has one of the most commercial vocals in the history of popular music. His voice has been heavily featured in countless hit records and his voice is instantly recognizable due to so many hits and high profile exposure. So maybe his opinion on such should be a bit more respected.... Also, with the right promotion back in 92 (the height of the anti anything Beach Boys related that wasn't all BRIAN BRIAN BRIAN, David Leaf era) just about anything off SIP could have been a hit, so it wasn't like he was speaking gibberish.

Someone mentioned Velvet Underground.... I wonder if there was ever any mention in that camp of Doug Yule's vocals sounding commercial as opposed to Lou's? It wouldn't have been a ridiculous comment and if any of the songs with Doug on lead vocals had been a hit: his more commercial voice wouldn't have hurt.....  

[Cam Mott]

There are non-commercial artists like, say, The Velvet Underground who have achieved long term success. Pet Sounds was at one point considered not commercial and now it's the most commercial Beach Boys original LP.

One last thing, I don't consider VU to be a Pop group.  Pet Sounds was actually very commercial, its sales just weren't reported in 1966/67.

[SMiLE Brian]

Does the Love Foundation still exist?

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

There are non-commercial artists like, say, The Velvet Underground who have achieved long term success. Pet Sounds was at one point considered not commercial and now it's the most commercial Beach Boys original LP.

One last thing, I don't consider VU to be a Pop group.  Pet Sounds was actually very commercial, its sales just weren't reported in 1966/67.

Other than White Light/White Heat, roughly half of the Banana album, and Murder Mystery from the third album, just about everything else from The Velvets could have been an AM radio pop hit!

[Chocolate Shake Man]

We need to keep in mind that Mike is a guy who has one of the most commercial vocals in the history of popular music. His voice has been heavily featured in countless hit records and his voice is instantly recognizable due to so many hits and high profile exposure. So maybe his opinion on such should be a bit more respected....

He's an excellent and unique singer no doubt. He also undoubtedly sings on many hits - though interestingly he only sings lead on 2 of the boys #1 hits and one could say that the hook in Kokomo belongs to Carl (though that "Aruba Jamaica" bit was sung by many at the time). He's also sung on some duds (the self-penned Still Cruisin', the Looking Back with Love album). Like a lot of people who talk about commerciality, he doesn't really seem to know what makes for commercial music and what doesn't. And even if he was the one guy in the world who could know, it's still an inane observation on his part. He's not some suit working on the top floor of the Capitol Tower, spending his day mostly pushing paper around on his desk and and playing with that ball thing on his desk that every corporate office had in every 80s movie I ever saw. And yet, he sure sounds like one in this quotation. And that's the last thing I want anyone to sound like.

Someone mentioned Velvet Underground.... I wonder if there was ever any mention in that camp of Doug Yule's vocals sounding commercial as opposed to Lou's? It wouldn't have been a ridiculous comment and if any of the songs with Doug on lead vocals had been a hit: his more commercial voice wouldn't have hurt.....  

It's hard to say - some of the biggest hits and more enduring songs have been sung by guys who do not necessarily have what one could call (though I wouldn't) a commercial voice - Bob Dylan's Like a Rolling Stone, Neil Young's Heart of Gold, etc. I don't think anybody can truly say with any real certainly what voice is commercial and what isn't.

[Lonely Summer]

The only debatable thing in that interview imo is:

So we've actually been having group meetings between Carl, myself and Al with the psychiatrist Howard Bloomfield, who's a good friend of mine and a board member of the Love Foundation, and we've done a lot of healing kind of things, airing grievances and working things out.


If I were a clear thinking human being (and no Beach Boy) I would believe that having a friend of yours as your psychiatrist is not an advising situation.


Regarding the other stuff: Mike is praising Carl's and Al's voices. Nothing wrong with that. They both sound fantastic on the SIP album. No need to see something in Mike's words that isn't there

There's nothing wrong with Carl's or Al's vocals on SIP - the problem is the material and the production. But I suspect Carl's mind was elsewhere; he came in, punched the clock, did the required work on SIP, but he was already planning to work with Gerry Beckley and Robert Lamm. What Mike's hopes for SIP failed to take into account was that pop radio had changed dramatically since Kokomo hit #1. The only way the Beach Boys were going to have a hit in 1992 was to start wearing flannel shirts and become a garage band again. Yeah, that would've been cool, middle aged Beach Boys trying to jump the latest fad (Here Comes the Night, anyone?). I don't even believe Brian could've had a hit in this era. IJWMFTT and OCA didnt' exactly race up the charts.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

What Mike's hopes for SIP failed to take into account was that pop radio had changed dramatically since Kokomo hit #1.

He also couldn't admit that maybe, just maybe, Kokomo was a fluke.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

We need to keep in mind that Mike is a guy who has one of the most commercial vocals in the history of popular music. His voice has been heavily featured in countless hit records and his voice is instantly recognizable due to so many hits and high profile exposure. So maybe his opinion on such should be a bit more respected....

He's an excellent and unique singer no doubt. He also undoubtedly sings on many hits - though interestingly he only sings lead on 2 of the boys #1 hits and one could say that the hook in Kokomo belongs to Carl (though that "Aruba Jamaica" bit was sung by many at the time). He's also sung on some duds (the self-penned Still Cruisin', the Looking Back with Love album). Like a lot of people who talk about commerciality, he doesn't really seem to know what makes for commercial music and what doesn't. And even if he was the one guy in the world who could know, it's still an inane observation on his part. He's not some suit working on the top floor of the Capitol Tower, spending his day mostly pushing paper around on his desk and and playing with that ball thing on his desk that every corporate office had in every 80s movie I ever saw. And yet, he sure sounds like one in this quotation. And that's the last thing I want anyone to sound like.

Someone mentioned Velvet Underground.... I wonder if there was ever any mention in that camp of Doug Yule's vocals sounding commercial as opposed to Lou's? It wouldn't have been a ridiculous comment and if any of the songs with Doug on lead vocals had been a hit: his more commercial voice wouldn't have hurt.....  

It's hard to say - some of the biggest hits and more enduring songs have been sung by guys who do not necessarily have what one could call (though I wouldn't) a commercial voice - Bob Dylan's Like a Rolling Stone, Neil Young's Heart of Gold, etc. I don't think anybody can truly say with any real certainly what voice is commercial and what isn't.

Hey, I dig Still Crusin'

You are absolutely right, but people still have these rather vague yet rather stiff ideas of what constitutes "Commercial" yet still understanding all the variances and exceptions to....

Mike's also a collaborator.... I don't think he's ever talked himself up as some guy who single highhandedly cranked out hits all by himself with no help.... We can't blame the guy exactly for being a bit lost/adrift without the right collaborator(s) ....

[SMiLE Brian]

What Mike's hopes for SIP failed to take into account was that pop radio had changed dramatically since Kokomo hit #1.

He also couldn't admit that maybe, just maybe, Kokomo was a fluke.

Also couldn't admit kokomo was a team effort of songwriters not a total ML composition.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

What Mike's hopes for SIP failed to take into account was that pop radio had changed dramatically since Kokomo hit #1.

He also couldn't admit that maybe, just maybe, Kokomo was a fluke.

Also couldn't admit kokomo was a team effort of songwriters not a total ML composition.

Yes, but Mike and The Beach Boys made it a hit!

You gotta admit the "Aruba, Jamaica" part is damn catchy and Mike's cool voice followed by Carl is pure gold!

OK, I'm running away now.....

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Hey, I dig Still Crusin'

In the words of Richard Kimble's judge, "May God have mercy on your soul."  

[Jim V.]

Whenever we're ragging on [insert any celebrity actor/athlete here], a brother of a friend of mine likes to opine, "he makes more money that YOU do."

Oh jeez, guess you're right. Never mind. End of discussion!

Never understood that line of thinking either. But then again money means everything to some people. And as we can tell, money has made Mike Love a INCREDIBLY happy, who always sees the bright side of an issue. Err, wait...

I just find it funny that a bunch of nobodies go on and on about a man who is more successful than they'll probably ever be...Michael really cares what people have to say about him, but he can't hear the bullshit over the sound of thousands of adoring fans night after night.

Remind me to use this line on you if we ever argue about Barack Obama again 

Zing! Good one hypehat.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

What Mike's hopes for SIP failed to take into account was that pop radio had changed dramatically since Kokomo hit #1.

He also couldn't admit that maybe, just maybe, Kokomo was a fluke.

Also couldn't admit kokomo was a team effort of songwriters not a total ML composition.

Yes, but Mike and The Beach Boys made it a hit!

You gotta admit the "Aruba, Jamaica" part is damn catchy and Mike's cool voice followed by Carl is pure gold!

OK, I'm running away now.....

I like Kokomo just fine. I don't think it's a fluke that the boys could make a song like that - they made much better on their own: All This is That as a glaring example. I do think, though, that they were very lucky with their timing with that one.

[Sheriff John Stone]

He's (Mike's) an excellent and unique singer no doubt. He also undoubtedly sings on many hits - though interestingly he only sings lead on 2 of the boys #1 hits...

Well, they only had four #1 hits (I Get Around, Help Me Rhonda, Good Vibrations, Kokomo) so singing lead on 50% of them ain't a bad average. Plus his "bow bow bow" on "Help Me Rhonda" is prominent as is his "I'm picking up good vibrations" part. Of course I don't have to mention that he wrote lyrics on all of those No. 1 hits.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

He's (Mike's) an excellent and unique singer no doubt. He also undoubtedly sings on many hits - though interestingly he only sings lead on 2 of the boys #1 hits...

Well, they only had four #1 hits (I Get Around, Help Me Rhonda, Good Vibrations, Kokomo) so singing lead on 50% of them ain't a bad average. Plus his "bow bow bow" on "Help Me Rhonda" is prominent as is his "I'm picking up good vibrations" part. Of course I don't have to mention that he wrote lyrics on all of those No. 1 hits.

All in all: a guy who can get away with having an opinion on what constitutes commercial......... even if he's dead wrong at whatever moment.

[HeyJude]

The only debatable thing in that interview imo is:

So we've actually been having group meetings between Carl, myself and Al with the psychiatrist Howard Bloomfield, who's a good friend of mine and a board member of the Love Foundation, and we've done a lot of healing kind of things, airing grievances and working things out.


If I were a clear thinking human being (and no Beach Boy) I would believe that having a friend of yours as your psychiatrist is not an advising situation.

I remember thinking something along these lines years ago back when I first read this interview. Even if one wouldn't have a problem with their friend being their therapist of some sort, if I was a band member and another member came to me and said "hey, let's go to a group therapist who can be objective, how about my good friend who is on the board of my foundation?", I'd probably wonder how impartial or objective that person could be under even the best of circumstances.

[HeyJude]

By the way, Al gave an interview in ESQ in about 2000 which is much more bitter about Mike. Obviously I can understand he was bitter about being frozen out of The Beach Boys but he even criticized Mike for marrying Jacqueline which was a bit much. In the interview Al said that Mike never forgave him and Carl for getting rid of the cheerleaders which I don't really believe but there we are.

I don't believe I'm familiar with that interview, but here is an interesting exchange from Al's 2000 Goldmine interview regarding the cheerleaders:

Goldmine: It saddened me that the Beach Boys' live shows were cheapened by the cheerleaders.

Al: Yeah, I actually got in trouble in an interview I did for a big magazine. I said virtually the same things and Mike got quite upset because I characterized the band that way. But I'm only telling the truth. It began to be a sideshow. Mike reluctantly gave into that eventually. But then I think he was so embittered by that that maybe that's when he began to reinvent the band.

[Mikie]

I'm with Al on that one. How 'bout you, Jude?

When the cheerleaders came out, at first it was a novelty. Good looking ladies kicking their feet up in front of the stage. Then after a couple of tours, it kinda got old. Kinda took away from the Rock & Roll band's performance.  I mean, I like cute young ladies jiggling and bobbing around as much as the next guy, don't get me wrong, but it just turned it into a circus. I was waiting for the next act to come out in the circus.....

[Nicko1234]

He also couldn't admit that maybe, just maybe, Kokomo was a fluke.

How many artists call their hit singles a fluke?