Carl and Mike's relationship

[drbeachboy]

Supposedly, Carl had some conditions set for returning to the touring band in mid 1982, which included more rehearsal and a more interesting setlist. In the first few years after Carl's return, this seemed to help. But eventually as has been discussed, he seemed to put up less of a fight to the way the touring band ended up.

I'm not sure what you mean by the way the touring band ended up? I went to many shows throughout that time frame and in that regard every show was well done. They did vary the setlist each year, but was a typical Beach Boys setlist for the most part.

[HeyJude]

Supposedly, Carl had some conditions set for returning to the touring band in mid 1982, which included more rehearsal and a more interesting setlist. In the first few years after Carl's return, this seemed to help. But eventually as has been discussed, he seemed to put up less of a fight to the way the touring band ended up.

I'm not sure what you mean by the way the touring band ended up? I went to many shows throughout that time frame and in that regard every show was well done. They did vary the setlist each year, but was a typical Beach Boys setlist for the most part.

I was referring to the sometimes stale setlists and sometimes rote performances of the 80's and 90's. Even Carl admitted that sometimes the shows were a bit on autopilot. I think they did plenty of great shows too, and even the "autopilot" shows were usually professional.

[Mikie]

When I think of the names Dennis and Al together, I think about what happened on September 3rd, 1977 on an airport tarmac in New Jersey.

[Cam Mott]

Someone of the Boys has addressed the pre-post Carl setlists directly and said it was a democratic group vote so all get the "blame" or the "credit" I believe. Geez, I hope I don't vaguely remember that wrong. Surely not.

[The 4th Wilson Bro.]

Just wanted to reiterate what southbay said about Carl's quote on the Endless Harmony doc.  This is as close to verbatim as I can get: "My partners are my greatest teachers."  And yes, I believe Carl was referring to all of his bandmates, not just his brothers.

Also, I must confess that I've grown weary of hearing (reading) the Beach Boys referred to as an "oldies act" in reference to the band's concerts of the '80s and early '90s.  To me, an oldies act is a band or performer that covers someone else's 1960s-era hits. The term, in my opinion, should not apply to a band that is performing hits from its own catalog – and especially an iconic band like the Beach Boys whose recordings are rock-and-roll classics and who have literally millions of fans throughout the globe who demand to hear those songs played in their concerts.

And, finally, I've really enjoyed this thread; plenty of interesting tidbits/comments. I confess, however, to knowing very little more about Carl's and Mike's relationship than I knew already.  I guess that's just the nature of the beast when it comes to Carl Wilson and learning anything more than just rudimentary facts about his life.

[Nicko1234]

Yeah, I do think the oldies tag is sometimes a little bit overstressed. Of course they did play the vast majority of the greatest hits but they also added new songs whenever they had something to promote. Even in 1997 they were playing stuff like You're So Good To Me and Summer in Paradise regularly.

I think when M&B started going out together they were in danger of really going down the oldies route by playing stuff like Duke of Earl, Sherry and couple of Beatles numbers but thankfully they gradually fell from the setlist.

[Cabinessenceking]

When I think of the names Dennis and Al together, I think about what happened on September 3rd, 1977 on an airport tarmac in New Jersey.

I'm ignorant of the details of what happened during that confrontation. Could you please elaborate?

[Wirestone]

I saw them in the summer of 1997, and there was no question that the band was incredible. Yes, it was phoned in to a degree. They had a very precise formula. But on the other hand, the combined vocal power of Carl, Al, Mike and Bruce on stage (not to mention Matt Jardine, who is still arguably the finest falsetto fill-in the band ever had) was amazing. To realize that this blend of voices was still what you'd heard in records 30-plus years before -- and that they all still had it -- was profound.

The C50 shows were more meaningful and had better setlists. The backing band was arguably more inspired. But that vocal blend -- even with Brian and a bunch of his guys added -- just can't compete with the Carl-led lineup.

[DonnyL]

I saw the band in October '96, then again in June '12. The '96 show was a downer, and the '12 show was transcendent.

[KittyKat]

When I think of the names Dennis and Al together, I think about what happened on September 3rd, 1977 on an airport tarmac in New Jersey.

I'm ignorant of the details of what happened during that confrontation. Could you please elaborate?

It's in the Gaines book. Something about Carl and Dennis Wilson getting in a fight/confrontation with Al, Mike and Bruce about which airplane Brian should fly on, the stoners or the TM'ers  (they had two separate aircraft for each band faction).  It made Rolling Stone magazine and has been part of the BB lore for years. 

[Nicko1234]

It's in the Gaines book. Something about Carl and Dennis Wilson getting in a fight/confrontation with Al, Mike and Bruce about which airplane Brian should fly on, the stoners or the TM'ers  (they had two separate aircraft for each band faction).  It made Rolling Stone magazine and has been part of the BB lore for years. 

Bruce wasn't part of it in 1977 surely...

[KittyKat]

So it was Mike and Al on the tarmac, then.  Back when they were BFF's in TM.

[Nicko1234]

So it was Mike and Al on the tarmac, then.  Back when they were BFF's in TM.

I don't think it was so much that. Some of the books have said it was more that Al sided with Mike because he felt he had no choice. Carl and Dennis were too drunk/drugged up to trust at that time.

[cablegeddon]

The huge success of Kokomo had to be a boost in morale for Mike and Carl and their friendship....Mike's speech at HoF probably hurt equally though....what do you think?

[Iron Horse-Apples]

Yes, I've always wondered about Carl's thoughts on Kokomo. OK, I imagine, as he was a champion of that synthy 80's sound on the 85 album. Carl always seemed to want to be very current when it came to recording. I wonder what he'd have made of the autotune on the new album?

[AndrewHickey]

All kinds of Beach Boys things are discussed in the greatest detail on this board, and still I can't find out what Al Jardine did to get suspended from the group.  I'd like to know what happened.

The only public discussion of it I've ever seen was in a Goldmine interview from 1992 - http://troun.tripod.com/mikelove.html
Mike talks about Al Jardine:

... And I told Al... we had a rough time the last couple of years communicating. He's definitely been on a bummer for many years based on some things that have happened to him historically. Different than what happened to me with Brian with respect to the writing but a similar effect on him emotionally. And me, I ignore it and go straight ahead and I think more of the future. Al has this thing where he'll obsess on something that happened 20 years ago. It's hard for him to let go.

So we've actually been having group meetings between Carl, myself and Al with the psychiatrist Howard Bloomfield, who's a good friend of mine and a board member of the Love Foundation, and we've done a lot of healing kind of things, airing grievances and working things out. It's been very therapeutic for all of us individually and collectively. I think we've gotten to understand each other and see the other's point of view and experience and it's made the group better and stronger.

That confirms a report i heard a little while back that Al Jardine had left the Beach Boys.

We got to the point where we didn't want to be in the same room or on stage with him because he was so negative about things. He was negative about certain things and once we were able to get into a forum, an area where he was able to unload some of that, we could empathize with some of it, not all of it, and air our points of view and it resolved all that stuff.

Are you getting along better now?

A lot better. But the point is he wasn't even on the album until a couple of months ago when we finally resolved all the stuff. Then he came in and I told Al he made a good song great. It's not that we couldn't do an album and do it well without Al Jardine around. Or the same goes for anybody. You're talking the Beach Boys, you're going to get someone to listen anyway. But on several songs it went from good to great. And Carl, God, he's a monster on the album. I think he sounds phenomenal, the most commercial he's ever sounded.

[Iron Horse-Apples]

That's a very interesting interview Andrew. To be a fly on the wall at those meetings eh?

Interesting that Carl was present as well. Was this in his role as mediator, or did he also have grievances / points to raise? As Bloomfield seems to have filled the role of mediator, I'd lean more towards the latter.

It's been very therapeutic for all of us individually and collectively. I think we've gotten to understand each other and see the other's point of view and experience and it's made the group better and stronger.

[clack]

" And Carl, God, he's a monster on the album. I think he sounds phenomenal, the most commercial he's ever sounded."

The most commercial  -- I guess Mike means that as high praise.

[Shady]

That's Mike for ya. Carl didn't sound beautiful, angelic or soulful he sounded "commercial".

Oy vey

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Yep. It's a ridiculous interview through and through. And then people say things like, "If Mike Love gave you a million dollars you'd still find a reason to dislike him." No, I just dislike because of the things that he actually does.

[Autotune]

It is not difficult to understand that certain things in life (in this case Al's) are not easy to let go. The RS reporter that tells the tarmac episode relates how some of the bitterness had to do with things that happened 15 or more years before (e.g. Dennis being left out of Brian and Carl's pre-BB group only to be let in thanks to their mother). Or remember Al being bitter towards in Gary Usher in 1986 because he thought the latter owed him money from the Rachel & Revolvers single from 23 years before! Biographical info that we take for granted, or that is part of our lore, are many times accounts of real-life very hard experiences that left their scars in these men.

[Autotune]

Yep. It's a ridiculous interview through and through. And then people say things like, "If Mike Love gave you a million dollars you'd still find a reason to dislike him." No, I just dislike because of the things that he actually does.

That's the most aggressive interview of Mike there is. He sometimes comes out as blunt, but he comes accross as bitter on this one. Maybe he was pissed because of the royalties issue. Maybe he was playing tough. Maybe he just could not stand Al anymore plain and simple. I do not find inadequate the quote about Carl, though.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Maybe the autobiography set him on edge but that doesn't really explain the Al stuff. Like I said in another thread, though, when the chips are down and Mike opens up, I just don't like what I see.

The Carl remark isn't nasty but it is pure absurdity and speaks volumes about how Mike measures quality. The man should have been an exec.

[drbeachboy]

Mike always speaks from the "Hits" perspective, which is odd, but I guess Kokomo had him thinking that way. From that "Hits" perspective, Carl was the most commercial sounding as a lead vocalist. I see nothing wrong with Mike's comment. Carl had the rock 'n' roll voice in The Beach Boys.

[Cam Mott]

Did you miss the "monster" and "phenomenal"?