Spector's influence on BW & Smile: Zip A Dee Doo Dah

[buddhahat]

I'm reading Mick Brown's fascinating Phil Spector Biog: Tearing Down the Wall of Sound and when I got to the bit about Zip A Dee Doo Dah, it really struck me how this may have been a major inspiration for Brian's Old Master Painter, and Smile in general. The way Phil has reworked a popular favourite into this avant garde, almost sinister production - slowed it down - given it a sort of knowing weariness, and essentially turned the whole character of the song on its head in a kind of post modern way, seems remarkably similar to what BW was doing with Old Master Painter, and other Smile reworkings such as I wanna be Around and the rag bits in Look. Spector's Zip A Dee Doo Dah also sounds like a giant train, which is obviously something Wilson was doing throughout Smile - the parts of H&V and Cabinessence that sound like a train, Worms as an ocean liner. The more I listen to Spector the more I can see just how much Wilson was inspired by him, beyond the obvious 'wall of sound' similarities.

[A Million Units In Jan!]

One thing I found sort of odd is that, for the most part, when Brian would talk about Spector, it was usually in glowing terms. He really admired the guy, and was in awe of what he had accomplished.
However, during the SMiLE period, he seemed to take on a different attitude. Look at 'Goodbye Surfing' article to see what I mean. The infamous 'Seconds' situation, where Brian is freaked out, and then continues on to draw a graph showing how he's gone beyond Spector, and that he knows that the two of them have some sort of rivalry going on. Brian also goes on to say that the music he's going to make is going to scare alot of people. I always thought that was odd considering Brian always made music out of love, as he liked to say.

[buddhahat]

One thing I found sort of odd is that, for the most part, when Brian would talk about Spector, it was usually in glowing terms. He really admired the guy, and was in awe of what he had accomplished.
However, during the SMiLE period, he seemed to take on a different attitude. Look at 'Goodbye Surfing' article to see what I mean. The infamous 'Seconds' situation, where Brian is freaked out, and then continues on to draw a graph showing how he's gone beyond Spector, and that he knows that the two of them have some sort of rivalry going on. Brian also goes on to say that the music he's going to make is going to scare alot of people. I always thought that was odd considering Brian always made music out of love, as he liked to say.

I think Brian was fixated on Spector, so he simultaneously adored/idolized him but was also fiercely competitive with him. I think in about 66 with the flop of River Deep Mountain High, Spector's decline in popularity was pretty obvious, and must have been significant in giving Brian a sense that he'd moved beyond his hero. Also (although I haven't heard it) there is a Modern Folk Quartet song produced by Spector that supposedly is a stylistic nod to the BBs. These things must have really bolstered Brian's confidence and sense that he was superceding his rival, but ironically Spector's commecrial downslide must have been very worrying for Brian inasmuch as at the core of the BB sound was that Wall Of Sound thing. I think Brian to some extent was also a victim of the Wall Of Sound becoming tired. He must have thought - is there any future in these huge productions? I think this must have been another fear that undermined Smile.

[rasmus skotte]

I've made the point (in my recent SMiLE essay) that the Spector-influence is all the place on SMiLE namely the first 3 (recurrent) notes from Brian's favorite Be my Baby. You'll them tributed on Prayer, The Surf's Up coda and several more.

[Roger Ryan]

Brian also goes on to say that the music he's going to make is going to scare alot of people. I always thought that was odd considering Brian always made music out of love, as he liked to say.

Brian has often used the term "scary" to mean "amazing"; not necessarily inconsistent with "making music out of love".

[Mr. Cohen]

...there is a Modern Folk Quartet song produced by Spector that supposedly is a stylistic nod to the BBs.

You're thinking of "This Could Be The Night", most of which was written by Harry Nilsson and then produced by Phil Spector in '65. It sounds somewhere in between the BBs sound on Today and Summer Days, but without the vocal harmonies and with Spector's typical Wall of Sound touches. It was never really released as a single, but it was played at some kind of big concert going on at the time and Brian wound up with a copy of the song somehow. I always thought that the famous bass line on "Heroes and Villains" sounded like the child of the bass lines on "River Deep, Mountain High" and Spector's version of "Save the Last Dance For Me", both of which were released in '66. The harmonies in the beginning of the verses of "River Deep, Mountain High" definitely seem to nod to the BBs, as do some of the other harmonies.

While Brian seems very influenced by  Spector on "Heroes and Villains", he also seems to be trying to obliterate Spector musically, throwing unbelievably dense vocal harmonies all over the song and brilliantly employing those unpredictable changes in musical sections that he had perfected with "Good Vibrations".

[Andrew G. Doe]

...there is a Modern Folk Quartet song produced by Spector that supposedly is a stylistic nod to the BBs.

You're thinking of "This Could Be The Night", most of which was written by Harry Nilsson and then produced by Phil Spector in '65. It sounds somewhere in between the BBs sound on Today and Summer Days, but without the vocal harmonies and with Spector's typical Wall of Sound touches. It was never really released as a single, but it was played at some kind of big concert going on at the time and Brian wound up with a copy of the song somehow.

The show was "The Big T.N.T. Show"... and Brian didn't lay hands on a copy of the song (which was only officially released in the seventies, I believe): he was at the session, and for years thereafter asked Phil for a copy, in vain. Pretty sure he was still asking as late as 1973, as he wanted Spring to cover it.

[Mr. Cohen]

Thanks AGD, that was some interesting information there!

[Fall Breaks]

Was at the session as in watching or as in playing?

[A Million Units In Jan!]

Brian also goes on to say that the music he's going to make is going to scare alot of people. I always thought that was odd considering Brian always made music out of love, as he liked to say.

Brian has often used the term "scary" to mean "amazing"; not necessarily inconsistent with "making music out of love".

Good point-although he does say that 'Mrs. O'Leary's Cow' was going to 'scare a lot of people', and seemed excited by the prospect. At least that's what I got out of it.

[Chris Brown]

Brian also goes on to say that the music he's going to make is going to scare alot of people. I always thought that was odd considering Brian always made music out of love, as he liked to say.

Brian has often used the term "scary" to mean "amazing"; not necessarily inconsistent with "making music out of love".

Good point-although he does say that 'Mrs. O'Leary's Cow' was going to 'scare a lot of people', and seemed excited by the prospect. At least that's what I got out of it.

In that particular instance, I agree that Brian meant "scary" in it's commonly accepted definition.  But he does use the word liberally in a lot of other situations.  I always found that statement a bit odd, as Brian's goal was (seemingly) always to make people feel positive emotions when listening to his music, not negative ones.  The whole "Fire" debacle put an end to that pretty quickly I suppose.

I think that after Pet Sounds and Good Vibrations, Brian reached the only point in his career where he could actually recognize the fact that he had gone beyond Spector (something he actually says in the "Goodbye Surfing" article).  He knew that he was doing incredible things, things that Spector could never have pulled off.  After Smile fell apart, it seemed that he went back to just expressing admiration for Spector without really putting himself in the same league.  Just as in the early days, he looked at Spector as his mentor/teacher, or as a rival who was superior to him. 

It's really a shame that even today, you would never hear Brian say that he was better than Spector or has a better body of work (which I think most would agree is true).

[Andrew G. Doe]

Was at the session as in watching or as in playing?

Watching.

[rasmus skotte]

Pet Sounds IMO provided the 'steppingsTones'  leading to SMiLE. Is it still a safe bet that a big reason  for Brian to embrace that album title was for its Phil Spector initials? (- recycled on 'Project SMiLE'...)
In an old issue of Beach Boys Stomp it was documented by Chris White, that almost every Pet Sounds SONG included the same 3-noted 'descending arpeggio' (9 out of 11, I believe). This key-note figure - but now clearly identified as the do-bi-la(-sol) signature from Be My Baby was (dis-)tributed thoughout SMiLE: On GV ("I'm pickin' up GOOD...", The Prayer opening and on Surf's Up-coda (Brian's wordless vocal) primarily.
If I'm allowed to re-coin a phrase and then a multi-layered pun - this very spectre of SMiLE represents the musical side of Brian's 'PHILosopher'sTONES', the totality of which I guess would be the accumulated message of my 3 SMiLE-pieces from last year: Brian Wilson's Radiant RayDIODish (from E.S.Q. about the psychological effects Spector had on Brian and SMiLE via Seconds), the Deus Pax Machina-video and the online SMiLE-essay.
I rest my case - maybe even zipping it - Doo Dah!

[Fall Breaks]

Was at the session as in watching or as in playing?

Watching.

Thought so.

[The Heartical Don]

...there is a Modern Folk Quartet song produced by Spector that supposedly is a stylistic nod to the BBs.

You're thinking of "This Could Be The Night", most of which was written by Harry Nilsson and then produced by Phil Spector in '65. It sounds somewhere in between the BBs sound on Today and Summer Days, but without the vocal harmonies and with Spector's typical Wall of Sound touches. It was never really released as a single, but it was played at some kind of big concert going on at the time and Brian wound up with a copy of the song somehow.

The show was "The Big T.N.T. Show"... and Brian didn't lay hands on a copy of the song (which was only officially released in the seventies, I believe): he was at the session, and for years thereafter asked Phil for a copy, in vain. Pretty sure he was still asking as late as 1973, as he wanted Spring to cover it.

I have the two 'Rare Masters' LPs by Spector... with fantastic cover pics, by the way. TCBTN is on one of these. Was that its first release? (around 1975 or so).

[Andrew G. Doe]

...there is a Modern Folk Quartet song produced by Spector that supposedly is a stylistic nod to the BBs.

You're thinking of "This Could Be The Night", most of which was written by Harry Nilsson and then produced by Phil Spector in '65. It sounds somewhere in between the BBs sound on Today and Summer Days, but without the vocal harmonies and with Spector's typical Wall of Sound touches. It was never really released as a single, but it was played at some kind of big concert going on at the time and Brian wound up with a copy of the song somehow.

The show was "The Big T.N.T. Show"... and Brian didn't lay hands on a copy of the song (which was only officially released in the seventies, I believe): he was at the session, and for years thereafter asked Phil for a copy, in vain. Pretty sure he was still asking as late as 1973, as he wanted Spring to cover it.

I have the two 'Rare Masters' LPs by Spector... with fantastic cover pics, by the way. TCBTN is on one of these. Was that its first release? (around 1975 or so).

Yup... but if you're being picky, Rodney Bingenheimer used it as his KROQ show theme for years.

[buddhahat]

...there is a Modern Folk Quartet song produced by Spector that supposedly is a stylistic nod to the BBs.

You're thinking of "This Could Be The Night", most of which was written by Harry Nilsson and then produced by Phil Spector in '65. It sounds somewhere in between the BBs sound on Today and Summer Days, but without the vocal harmonies and with Spector's typical Wall of Sound touches. It was never really released as a single, but it was played at some kind of big concert going on at the time and Brian wound up with a copy of the song somehow. I always thought that the famous bass line on "Heroes and Villains" sounded like the child of the bass lines on "River Deep, Mountain High" and Spector's version of "Save the Last Dance For Me", both of which were released in '66. The harmonies in the beginning of the verses of "River Deep, Mountain High" definitely seem to nod to the BBs, as do some of the other harmonies.

While Brian seems very influenced by  Spector on "Heroes and Villains", he also seems to be trying to obliterate Spector musically, throwing unbelievably dense vocal harmonies all over the song and brilliantly employing those unpredictable changes in musical sections that he had perfected with "Good Vibrations".

Thanks - that's the song and I just heard it the other day. It's pretty great and I can definitely hear the BB influence. I wish Spector had produced an album's worth of this kind of stuff.