How would BB history be different if Mike had received proper cowriting credits?

[CenturyDeprived]

If Mike had always been properly credited on (and properly compensated for) all BB songs that he co-wrote from the inception of the band, how do you think BB history would’ve played out differently? While there’s little doubt that Mike held a justified grudge/bitterness (at least to some degree, or maybe to a huge degree) about being screwed out of credits by Murry (and Brian’s non-action to rectify things), one has to wonder how much of Mike’s actions, way of seeing things, and interaction with Brian/Brian’s other lyricists were affected in one way or another by a chip of some sort that he presumably had on his shoulder.

I have to think that there was lots of passive aggressive stuff going on between Mike and Brian (and vice versa) that may have stemmed from Mike’s non-credits, but at the same time, I’m almost of the opinion that a good deal of their interrelationship (and the band’s history) would have remained unchanged overall (sans a difference in their respective bank accounts).
 

[bgas]

Mike would just have found something else to bitch about. It's simply his nature

[Niko]

By not receiving credit, he becomes an 'uncredited artist'. Imagine if he had the praise for writing those songs from the beginning...his ego would have gotten huge!

[Mr. Wilson]

I don't believe much would have changed.. BW was// is still The Producer.. And architect  of the backing tracks + vocal stacks.. He also set the tone of the story line of the songs + wrote words also.. He had the falsetto every one loved and in the beginning Brian + Mike were the main vocalist..  Brian had total veto power on any song and what was released for many years.. What would have changed history more would have been if Brian stayed on as a performing member and not gone away and if he had a large success as a independent record producer.. And of course the drug problem..

[Howie Edelson]

I think a better and more important question is "How would BB history be different if Mike had been the lyricist on PET SOUNDS?"

[relx]

I'm waiting for the day when you can surf again?

[bgas]

I think a better and more important question is "How would BB history be different if Mike had been the lyricist on PET SOUNDS?"

Perhaps he was, hence it's inclusion as an instrumental...

[shelter]

Imagine if he had the praise for writing those songs from the beginning...his ego would have gotten huge!

Not sure about that. I think that Mike just got a bit frustrated because he never really got the credit that he probably deserved. So he stood up for himself, which is fine, but at some point he just started overcompensating. I guess the same thing must have happened to Carole Kaye.

[urbanite]

Acknowledging up front that Mike didn't get all of the credit he should have, he did become rich and famous as the lead singer of one of the world's most loved rock and roll bands.  Mike was a great lyricist on many tunes, but over time, his skill as a songwriter faded.  This is a long winded way of saying, that I don't think it would have changed the band's history if he had been given proper credit.   

[rab2591]

I think a better and more important question is "How would BB history be different if Mike had been the lyricist on PET SOUNDS?"

The album wouldn't be much different. Mike would be around Brian more - influencing/dissuading Brian from heavy drug use perhaps. And with Brian's increased exposure to the Lovester, I wonder if Mike would've persuaded Brian to keep the theme of Smile simple....or would Smile have ever crossed Brian's mind?

Fascinating question....anyone else have thoughts?

[Howie Edelson]

I think Mike Love providing the lyrics to Pet Sounds would've in no way diminished the power of the LP. I mentioned to Brian, that in light of the amazing work Mike was producing for their '64/'65 songs, Mike -- who could go deep and romantic with the best of them -- would've made the PERFECT choice to supply the lyrics for Pet Sounds. When asked point blank about why he didn't go to Mike in view of Today! and the amazing success of their 1965 singles, Brian could only muster, "Y'know. . . I don't know. . . I DO NOT KNOW!"

Whatever your personal opinions about the music and albums produced by the band in 1966/1967, Mike Love was put on ice artistically by Brian and by the time he was allowed back in, in America at least, nobody gave a sh it about the Beach Boys. It was like Bobby Vinton in 1965. Imagine being sidelined and knowing that you could've helped save the team. (And maybe that's why he's always been so protective of the live act, he's never allowed that to slip out of his grasp.)

To deliver the goods on "Good Vibrations" and be shelved in place of yet another temporary outsider was where the dissension REALLY started. Not Murry or Brian screwing him out of credit and dough (although that didn't help) -- it started with the fact that, like he's said every chance he's been given since -- he took Brian's "crazy" music and made the PLANET sing along with it. Van Dyke Parks didn't (and in truth didn't want to), and although that wasn't what he was hired to do, he was being artistic and oblique on someone else's dime in someone else's gig. Perhaps Mike Love wouldn't have been as "brave" with Smile knowing that "putting asse s in seats" applied as much to to record sales as it did to auditoriums. Obviously, I'm glad Smile exists. I love it. But had Mike Love been given the spot he deserved artistically in the band in 1966, the place that "Happy Together," those massive Association singles, and all the other great sunshine pop of the era -- I think -- would've belonged to the Beach Boys. They might never have gotten the "FM" respect they deserved, but they wouldn't have been relegated to Top 20 also-rans as the decade wore on. There's no doubt in my mind that had they been on the same page, Wilson/Love could've owned '67.

The debate about Mike and the credit and the money is the symptom to a bigger issue -- and that was being all but benched for Pet Sounds and Smile after delivering gold for so long.
What he's saying when he does his "Mr. Positivity" dance is essentially: "I made good for the brand. I never blew it when it meant everything."

That's really what it is.

[Moon Dawg]

I'm waiting for the day when you can surf again?

  Mike actually wrote the lyrics for "I'm Waiting for the Day"! His only real Pet Sounds writing credit.

[rab2591]

Great post, Howie.

[mikeddonn]

That is one of the best posts on here Howie.  Really made me think about it, especially the analogy of Mike being put on ice.  Up to that point you are right he had delivered the goods and maybe around 65/66 he was really growing as a lyricist (Today album onwards) and probably felt that the chance to further develop and hit the heights with Brian had been taken away from him.  By the time he was needed again maybe he had lost the creative momentum and felt it easier to look backwards to the early hits for lyrical inspiration.

[Mike's Beard]

I'm waiting for the day when you can surf again?

  Mike actually wrote the lyrics for "I'm Waiting for the Day"! His only real Pet Sounds writing credit.

And the lyrics are great as are his I Know There's an Answer rewrite lyrics. Mike deserves a bash now and then but some people really blind themselves to the fact that in the 60's the guy was in a league of his own as a first class lyric writer.

[CenturyDeprived]

I think Mike Love providing the lyrics to Pet Sounds would've in no way diminished the power of the LP. I mentioned to Brian, that in light of the amazing work Mike was producing for their '64/'65 songs, Mike -- who could go deep and romantic with the best of them -- would've made the PERFECT choice to supply the lyrics for Pet Sounds. When asked point blank about why he didn't go to Mike in view of Today! and the amazing success of their 1965 singles, Brian could only muster, "Y'know. . . I don't know. . . I DO NOT KNOW!"
 

I think that a recent Brian interview where he said "Y'know. . . I don't know" about why he didn't want to work with Mike at this time is simply Brian not wanting to get into the tough emotional territory of answering the question in a fully truthful way within a public arena. Nothing new there.  IMO there's no way he could answer the question truthfully without it getting ugly in some sense.

While Mike was undeniably able to write great, from-the-heart lyrics when he wanted to (Kiss Me Baby, Please Let Me Wonder, etc)... it's also very possible that if getting an entire album's worth of heartfelt lyrics out of Mike meant a good amount of struggle for Brian (dealing with possible resistance and/or an "attitude" about it all - even if just an indirect undercurrent), that Brian wouldn't have been able to function at his utmost top level, and Brian's own creative heights could have been compromised. Or at least, Brian may have subconsciously felt that would be a possible thing that could've happened if he'd kept writing more or less exclusively with Mike at that time.

IMO, around the Pet Sounds era, Brian likely sensed that he truly needed/craved to write with someone who would willingly be in a subordinate role relatively speaking, where Brian was ultimately the unquestioned boss, and could write about subjects he wanted to write about without dealing with an overbearing sarcastic personality. Just because Mike would usually relent and give in ultimately to Brian, doesn't mean that Brian didn't have to go through some emotional turmoil (or at the very least an unpleasant experience of resistance) when dealing with his cousin - even if there could be beautiful art as the end result. Not saying that all Brian's writing with Mike was that way, but I'd imagine that trying to write an entire Pet Sounds album with Mike would almost certainly have been a VERY tough thing for both parties to go through without a metric ton of friction.

When creating art at the level that Brian was creating at, and at a time when Brian was *really* reaching for the stars and actively trying to push boundaries in a huge way and departing from the Beach Boys comfort zone norms... what artist wants to be put into a position of having to justify/defend the artistic (and ultimately less commercial for the short term, but most profound and career-defining for the long term) vision that they were undertaking at the time? Just because Mike was occasionally capable of writing at a very good, deep emotional level, doesn't mean that it didn't make *perfect* sense for Brian to want to stop working with Mike for this project.

[Howie Edelson]

On both a creative and commercial level, I believe it does make perfect sense.

Coming off Today! and "Dance, Dance, Dance," "Help Me, Rhonda" "Let Him Run Wild," and "California Girls" and passing him over for Pet Sounds was an insane risk. With no blockbuster coming off the LP, who did he got to for the next single?

Even riskier was dumping him again for "Good Vibrations."

Regarding my chat with Brian -- this was hardly a situation where Brian was rushing through an interview or shying away from anything uncomfortable. Discussing why he chose Tony Asher over Mike Love was probably the most benign subject we covered.

Wenner wasn't entirely wrong with his prickish comment about chasing the Beatles.

What Brian never fully got was that Wilson/Love's TRUE peers were Holland-Dozier-Holland -- and all three of those guys knew that to truly f*** with the formula and score a smash was to do it TOGETHER.

[CenturyDeprived]

On both a creative and commercial level, I believe it does.

Again - if the guy (Mike) who did have a track record of writing some good lyrics, also was nonetheless beginning to be a BIG thorn in Brian's side from a creative standpoint, and if Brian's intuition was that continuing to work with this guy (within the framework of the same power structure) could compromise Brian's full creative juices, how does it add up that it would still make sense for Brian to keep working with Mike at this time?

I could perhaps buy into your theory (just a bit) if somehow Mike would have agreed to be utilized by Brian ONLY when Brian wanted Mike's input on songs, but absolutely without any of the pushy type of attitude and continued grilling/questioning of Brian's creative plans that would have most certainly come with the territory. That was not gonna happen with Mike's personality and sense of creative entitlement for having written past hits.

[urbanite]

Howie posts are great, he makes solid points.  I thought BW hooked up with Tony Asher as a lyricist because Mike and the guys were on the road, while he stayed in L.A. and wrote and put together the new songs.  Which led me to wondering how did BW and Tony Asher connect?  

I totally agree with the point that to reach for new creative highs and to experiment is great, but simultaneously you have to produce hit songs or you will lose your foilowing.  Mike was let back in at some in the last 60's to write with BW again.  It doesn't seem like he was able to come up with very much besides Do It Again.

[Dancing Bear]

On both a creative and commercial level, I believe it does.

Again - if the guy (Mike) who did have a track record of writing some good lyrics, also was nonetheless beginning to be a BIG thorn in Brian's side from a creative standpoint, and if Brian's intuition was that continuing to work with this guy (within the framework of the same power structure) could compromise Brian's full creative juices, how does it add up that it would still make sense for Brian to keep working with Mike at this time?

Because he was in a band. 

Just kidding, your post was great. You represented what probably went through Brian's head in late '65 very well, without suggesting that Mike and the rest of the band owed Brian anything.

[CenturyDeprived]

On both a creative and commercial level, I believe it does.

Again - if the guy (Mike) who did have a track record of writing some good lyrics, also was nonetheless beginning to be a BIG thorn in Brian's side from a creative standpoint, and if Brian's intuition was that continuing to work with this guy (within the framework of the same power structure) could compromise Brian's full creative juices, how does it add up that it would still make sense for Brian to keep working with Mike at this time?

Because he was in a band.  

Just kidding, your post was great. You represented what probably went through Brian's head in late '65 very well, without suggesting that Mike and the rest of the band owed Brian anything.

The other thing to remember is, that in bands, power structure and writing processes sometimes change. For different reasons. The creative process of people can change, and the "way we do things" for a particular album does not have to mean that will always be the "way we do things" for a subsequent album. Lots and lots and lots of bands will "reboot" their way of thinking and way of doing things from album to album. Freshened circumstances can (and did in this case) lead to some amazing new heights.

I could empathize more for Mike unarguably having felt butt-hurt by his "demotion" more if he hadn't been someone who was questioning Brian's artistic motives (and not in a particularly "nice" way) as much as everything I've read about the band's '65/'66 power structure/dynamic has told me that he was.

[Howie Edelson]

Having the guys on the road was a definite deterrent in the Wilson/Love collaboration. But the difference is, Brian needed to be home to do what he did -- Mike didn't. Acetates would've been handed/mailed to Mike to write on the road with great ease.

I think it all comes down to Brian's ambitions/hangups in wanting to be more than he was (in his mind, Beatles/Dylan) and not wanting to be part of a club that would have him as a member. He wanted to be taken seriously and discussed the way Lennon & McCartney and Dylan were. That was what the underlying trip was -- being considered "legit."

Brian didn't WANT to work with his family, he wanted to "leave home." And that turns into the whole "your family is your business" viscous cycle that still pertains as of this writing.

[CenturyDeprived]

On both a creative and commercial level, I believe it does make perfect sense.

Coming off Today! and "Dance, Dance, Dance," "Help Me, Rhonda" "Let Him Run Wild," and "California Girls" and passing him over for Pet Sounds was an insane risk. With no blockbuster coming off the LP, who did he got to for the next single?

Even riskier was dumping him again for "Good Vibrations."

Regarding my chat with Brian -- this was hardly a situation where Brian was rushing through an interview or shying away from anything uncomfortable. Discussing why he chose Tony Asher over Mike Love was probably the most benign subject we covered.

Wenner wasn't entirely wrong with his prickish comment about chasing the Beatles.

What Brian never fully got was that Wilson/Love's TRUE peers were Holland-Dozier-Holland -- and all three of those guys knew that to truly f*** with the formula and score a smash was to do it TOGETHER.

In an ideal world, I'd love if Brian and Mike would've been able to continually truly f*** with the formula, score repeated smashes, and do it TOGETHER. That would've been nice if that could have been achievable.  But IMO it was a deep, fundamental personality clash (and power struggle) between those two guys that would have made that impossible. Ultimately, it seems to me that Brian was too fragile, and Mike was too pushy (and IMO has shown some bully traits - sorry for those who will take offense to this, but it's how I see it).

If anyone has ever been in a band with a relentlessly "pushy" bandmember, you'll know how tough it is to create art with your own creative juices turned up to 11. It's pretty damn close to impossible.

[Dancing Bear]

 Mike was let back in at some in the last 60's to write with BW again.  It doesn't seem like he was able to come up with very much besides Do It Again.

'Good Vibrations' with more generic and uninspired moon and june lyrics would still be a huge hit. 'Wild Honey' (the single) could have had  lyrics by Asher, Parks, Lennon or Dylan and it would still bomb.

[Howie Edelson]

I also want to add, that I highly doubt that Mike would have had a problem with ANY of Brian's music had he been his collaborator on it. He heard "Good Vibrations" and knew what it needed to put it over the top -- and those lyrics are as cool, au courant, and brilliant as anything else out there.

I'm just saying that Mike coulda, shoulda, woulda, nailed Pet Sounds -- and had he been given the shot at Smile, (as crazy as that feels to think and type) he would've come back with some dynamite sh it as well -- a whole other direction than VDP -- but one equally valid.

It's a chicken and the egg scenario -- which came first?

"Don't f*** with the formula."

or

"You're not worthy of me."