VDP: "victimised by Brian Wilson's buffoonery"

[Andrew G. Doe]

'Xactly.

[buddhahat]

Maybe it doesn't address conflict within the band because there wasn't any really.

I find that hard to believe. it's one thing to argue that the inter-band conflict over smile wasn't the main reason it collapsed, but that there was no conflict at all flies in the face of all the available evidence. Why would brian, VDP, Marilyn, Danny Hutton etc. make that stuff up? Even Mike openly admits to his dissatisfaction with the lyrics. None of them are claiming that the conflict surrounding Smile is a myth dreamed up by fans and music journos.

[SMiLE Brian]

Truth is very often stranger than fiction.

Please throw us a bone!!!

[Micha]

I'll tell you in another 41 years. 

Don't make promises you can't keep.

[Cam Mott]

Maybe it doesn't address conflict within the band because there wasn't any really.

I find that hard to believe. it's one thing to argue that the inter-band conflict over smile wasn't the main reason it collapsed, but that there was no conflict at all flies in the face of all the available evidence. Why would brian, VDP, Marilyn, Danny Hutton etc. make that stuff up? Even Mike openly admits to his dissatisfaction with the lyrics. None of them are claiming that the conflict surrounding Smile is a myth dreamed up by fans and music journos.

Having an opinion band isn't conflict.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Maybe it doesn't address conflict within the band because there wasn't any really.

I find that hard to believe. it's one thing to argue that the inter-band conflict over smile wasn't the main reason it collapsed, but that there was no conflict at all flies in the face of all the available evidence. Why would brian, VDP, Marilyn, Danny Hutton etc. make that stuff up? Even Mike openly admits to his dissatisfaction with the lyrics. None of them are claiming that the conflict surrounding Smile is a myth dreamed up by fans and music journos.

There's a lot of overcompensating going on. The narrative used to be "the band hated smile and killed it." Then we reevaluated the evidence and decided that was unfair, but now there's many who claim Mike and the boys must have 100% loved it in spite of Mike, VDP and Brian saying otherwise all these years. The truth is in the middle, of course.

[Cam Mott]

Maybe it doesn't address conflict within the band because there wasn't any really.

I find that hard to believe. it's one thing to argue that the inter-band conflict over smile wasn't the main reason it collapsed, but that there was no conflict at all flies in the face of all the available evidence. Why would brian, VDP, Marilyn, Danny Hutton etc. make that stuff up? Even Mike openly admits to his dissatisfaction with the lyrics. None of them are claiming that the conflict surrounding Smile is a myth dreamed up by fans and music journos.

There's a lot of overcompensating going on. The narrative used to be "the band hated smile and killed it." Then we reevaluated the evidence and decided that was unfair, but now there's many who claim Mike and the boys must have 100% loved it in spite of Mike, VDP and Brian saying otherwise all these years. The truth is in the middle, of course.

Or do they just basically say Mike had an opinion.

[guitarfool2002]

Keep it in perspective, too. That pendulum swings too far in both directions, and I agree to a point that the story unfolded in the middle somewhere, if we're weighing the versions of the story(s) that have been published "on the record".

But keep in mind there are also accounts from people who also were there and have not gone "on the record", and have no desire to do so, yet they have spoken with some who post on the board.

As far as that pendulum swinging, for one I think the Smile Sessions Youtube "webisodes" were a whitewash, and I guess they had to be for promotional and marketing reasons (especially at that time with everything else coming up re: 50th) but in some ways they still bother me in the same way you could go to a new burger joint in town and get a horrible burger with horrible service, a stale roll with overcooked meat and wilted lettuce served cold by rude employees...and someone asks you after the fact how was that new burger joint and all you do is rave about the fries. It misses the point.

I also think if the pendulum is allowed to swing too far, you'll get the version of Smile that was shown on the ABC "biopic" TV movie, which I've said many times here was so absurd it could border on slanderous. Yet how many hundreds of thousands of viewers got that impression of the era from that depiction? It's potentially worse than trying to bust the incorrect opinions that have since been "busted" which swung the other way, because it was presented as an official account. I still don't know how that made it to air as it did, but it's past history and I don't see many clamoring for DVD's of it.

[Cam Mott]

Or the pendulum has not swung back enough yet.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Enger-land swings like a pendulum do.

Allegedly.

[CenturyDeprived]

Or the pendulum has not swung back enough yet.

And if only we can further convince ourselves of every person’s feelings also being "not valid", we can make the pendulum fall off its axis all together, and believe whatever we want to.

[Cam Mott]

Or the pendulum has not swung back enough yet.

And if only we can further convince ourselves of every person’s feelings also being "not valid", we can make the pendulum fall off its axis all together, and believe whatever we want to.

Yeah. Whatever that means.

[SMiLE Brian]

Enger-land swings like a pendulum do.

Allegedly.

says the mysterious man in the picture. 

[KittyKat]

What does being "victimized by buffoonery" look like? VDP is such a popinjay. He got his collar studs all in a twist.

[bgas]

What does being "victimized by buffoonery" look like? VDP is such a popinjay. He got his collar studs all in a twist.

"Victimized by buffoonery" looks exactly like Kittkykat

[KittyKat]

Is that B-Gas or is it short for Big . . .

[bgas]

Is that B-Gas or is it short for Big . . .

You've got the  popinjay manner to a T, go with what suits ya

[Bill Tobelman]

I think that Van Dyke Parks is sort of a victim of SMILE. His Tony Asher-like mission seems to go on & on.

VDP was there big-time for the SMILE album but later left due to various project difficulties as well as personal opportunities.

He stuck up for SMiLE and Brian through the years all the way to BWPS and even took over sole responsibility for all the album's lyrics (my guess is that this move was to take pressure offa Brian).

VDP has more than paid his SMiLE dues. My guess is that the "buffoon" comment has more to do with Brian's dealings with the band (The Beach Boys) than his relationship with Brian for the basic idea of SMiLE.

That seems likely a reflection of the same rift that separated VDP from The Beach Boys in the first place.

There is however the possibility that the "buffoon" comment has to do with Brian not leveling with the public and spilling the beans about SMILE.

[CenturyDeprived]

I think that Van Dyke Parks is sort of a victim of SMILE. His Tony Asher-like mission seems to go on & on.

VDP was there big-time for the SMILE album but later left due to various project difficulties as well as personal opportunities.

He stuck up for SMiLE and Brian through the years all the way to BWPS and even took over sole responsibility for all the album's lyrics (my guess is that this move was to take pressure offa Brian).

VDP has more than paid his SMiLE dues. My guess is that the "buffoon" comment has more to do with Brian's dealings with the band (The Beach Boys) than his relationship with Brian for the basic idea of SMiLE.

That seems likely a reflection of the same rift that separated VDP from The Beach Boys in the first place.

There is however the possibility that the "buffoon" comment has to do with Brian not leveling with the public and spilling the beans about SMILE.

The fact that Brian's public stance on Beautiful Dreamer specifically fingers Mike, and that Brian's public stance 7 years later has ZERO mention of Mike, tells me that something happened to cause that change of Brian's public stance in the interim.  That public change of heart didn't happen out of thin air, methinks.

I have a feeling that a tiny contingent of people on this board may think that Brian magically "came to his senses" while not being around people putting lies in his head... but I think that both times around, Brian never publicly mentioned any person/circumstance that he didn't in some shape for form honestly perceive as being contributing factors (and there were many). It's just that his selective omissions at certain times surely happened for a reason. Maybe not an insidious reason, but a reason nonetheless.

I cannot imagine that in the time period just preceding TSS, that this subject (and how it would be handled during the release of TSS) was not at some point delicately talked about between Brian and Mike's people, and that there wasn't some PR massaging going on behind the scenes.

Mike surely likes having his name not mentioned whatsoever in the discussion of the contributing factors of SMiLE's non-release - and it doesn't make sense that, after Beautiful Dreamer, that he'd just sit back during the filming of the TSS Webisodes without wondering/worrying about if Brian would say the same thing again in 2011, ya know? He wasn't gonna just take his chances on that. Even if there was some legit mending of fences happening behind-the-scenes regarding the subject, it still only makes sense to me that the 2011 public stance was very well and delicately plotted out about what was ok/not ok for all parties to say publicly.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I think that Van Dyke Parks is sort of a victim of SMILE. His Tony Asher-like mission seems to go on & on.

VDP was there big-time for the SMILE album but later left due to various project difficulties as well as personal opportunities.

He stuck up for SMiLE and Brian through the years all the way to BWPS and even took over sole responsibility for all the album's lyrics (my guess is that this move was to take pressure offa Brian).

VDP has more than paid his SMiLE dues. My guess is that the "buffoon" comment has more to do with Brian's dealings with the band (The Beach Boys) than his relationship with Brian for the basic idea of SMiLE.

That seems likely a reflection of the same rift that separated VDP from The Beach Boys in the first place.

There is however the possibility that the "buffoon" comment has to do with Brian not leveling with the public and spilling the beans about SMILE.

The fact that Brian's public stance on Beautiful Dreamer specifically fingers Mike, and that Brian's public stance 7 years later has ZERO mention of Mike, tells me that something happened to cause that change of Brian's public stance in the interim.  That public change of heart didn't happen out of thin air, methinks.

I have a feeling that a tiny contingent of people on this board may think that Brian magically "came to his senses" while not being around people putting lies in his head... but I think that both times around, Brian never publicly mentioned any person/circumstance that he didn't in some shape for form honestly perceive as being contributing factors (and there were many). It's just that his selective omissions at certain times surely happened for a reason. Maybe not an insidious reason, but a reason nonetheless.

I cannot imagine that in the time period just preceding TSS, that this subject (and how it would be handled during the release of TSS) was not at some point delicately talked about between Brian and Mike's people, and that there wasn't some PR massaging going on behind the scenes.

I think this sounds plausible. It's very sad that we seem to need a bad guy in the first place. BWPS/Beautiful Dreamer dumps it all on Mike, now with TSS and the backlash against Mike "hating" we have an alternate scenario where VDP and Brian never got along, disliked one another's work, etc.

Obviously, it's nobody's fault. But regardless, it's really lame that PR whitewash and Van's inability to let go and move on have robbed us of a more balanced take in TSS book, and a retrospective from the project's lyricist. Now, I've praised Mike's essay for sticking to his guns and setting the record straight and I'm glad it was included. But the fact that the guy who sung a few parts apparently had so much say in this boxset at the expense of the album's original collaborator doesn't sit right with me at all.

We can't know what happened, but something about the compiling of this set definitely ruffled VDP's feathers, and that's a damn shame because this should've been his time to shine as well as Brian.

[CenturyDeprived]

I think that Van Dyke Parks is sort of a victim of SMILE. His Tony Asher-like mission seems to go on & on.

VDP was there big-time for the SMILE album but later left due to various project difficulties as well as personal opportunities.

He stuck up for SMiLE and Brian through the years all the way to BWPS and even took over sole responsibility for all the album's lyrics (my guess is that this move was to take pressure offa Brian).

VDP has more than paid his SMiLE dues. My guess is that the "buffoon" comment has more to do with Brian's dealings with the band (The Beach Boys) than his relationship with Brian for the basic idea of SMiLE.

That seems likely a reflection of the same rift that separated VDP from The Beach Boys in the first place.

There is however the possibility that the "buffoon" comment has to do with Brian not leveling with the public and spilling the beans about SMILE.

The fact that Brian's public stance on Beautiful Dreamer specifically fingers Mike, and that Brian's public stance 7 years later has ZERO mention of Mike, tells me that something happened to cause that change of Brian's public stance in the interim.  That public change of heart didn't happen out of thin air, methinks.

I have a feeling that a tiny contingent of people on this board may think that Brian magically "came to his senses" while not being around people putting lies in his head... but I think that both times around, Brian never publicly mentioned any person/circumstance that he didn't in some shape for form honestly perceive as being contributing factors (and there were many). It's just that his selective omissions at certain times surely happened for a reason. Maybe not an insidious reason, but a reason nonetheless.

I cannot imagine that in the time period just preceding TSS, that this subject (and how it would be handled during the release of TSS) was not at some point delicately talked about between Brian and Mike's people, and that there wasn't some PR massaging going on behind the scenes.

I think this sounds plausible. It's very sad that we seem to need a bad guy in the first place. BWPS/Beautiful Dreamer dumps it all on Mike, now with TSS and the backlash against Mike "hating" we have an alternate scenario where VDP and Brian never got along, disliked one another's work, etc.

Obviously, it's nobody's fault. But regardless, it's really lame that PR whitewash and Van's inability to let go and move on have robbed us of a more balanced take in TSS book, and a retrospective from the project's lyricist. Now, I've praised Mike's essay for sticking to his guns and setting the record straight and I'm glad it was included. But the fact that the guy who sung a few parts apparently had so much say in this boxset at the expense of the album's original collaborator doesn't sit right with me at all.

We can't know what happened, but something about the compiling of this set definitely ruffled VDP's feathers, and that's a damn shame because this should've been his time to shine as well as Brian.

Even when viewing VDP's non appearance on TSS as a completely separate issue with its own set of reasons/circumstances... I still think that VDP would have had to have his own feelings on the project filtered/muted/muzzled to some degree, if he were to have been part of TSS (and if peace was to have prevailed).

And the thing is, I don't think there has to be a "bad guy" or a "good guy" in this. It's a bunch of flawed people, and hindsight is 20/20. It's just that the people involved should all admit the things they did, acknowledge hurt feelings, and share the contributing factor thing a bit. Just even a little tiny bit. Then there can/could've been be some true forgiveness, at least in the public sense. The "bad guy" thing IMO is a public reaction to a certain someone never, ever even slightly publicly discussing their contributing factor role (or not talking - at the very least - about the reasons why some people would think they are a contributing factor) for 47 years.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I think that Van Dyke Parks is sort of a victim of SMILE. His Tony Asher-like mission seems to go on & on.

VDP was there big-time for the SMILE album but later left due to various project difficulties as well as personal opportunities.

He stuck up for SMiLE and Brian through the years all the way to BWPS and even took over sole responsibility for all the album's lyrics (my guess is that this move was to take pressure offa Brian).

VDP has more than paid his SMiLE dues. My guess is that the "buffoon" comment has more to do with Brian's dealings with the band (The Beach Boys) than his relationship with Brian for the basic idea of SMiLE.

That seems likely a reflection of the same rift that separated VDP from The Beach Boys in the first place.

There is however the possibility that the "buffoon" comment has to do with Brian not leveling with the public and spilling the beans about SMILE.

The fact that Brian's public stance on Beautiful Dreamer specifically fingers Mike, and that Brian's public stance 7 years later has ZERO mention of Mike, tells me that something happened to cause that change of Brian's public stance in the interim.  That public change of heart didn't happen out of thin air, methinks.

I have a feeling that a tiny contingent of people on this board may think that Brian magically "came to his senses" while not being around people putting lies in his head... but I think that both times around, Brian never publicly mentioned any person/circumstance that he didn't in some shape for form honestly perceive as being contributing factors (and there were many). It's just that his selective omissions at certain times surely happened for a reason. Maybe not an insidious reason, but a reason nonetheless.

I cannot imagine that in the time period just preceding TSS, that this subject (and how it would be handled during the release of TSS) was not at some point delicately talked about between Brian and Mike's people, and that there wasn't some PR massaging going on behind the scenes.

I think this sounds plausible. It's very sad that we seem to need a bad guy in the first place. BWPS/Beautiful Dreamer dumps it all on Mike, now with TSS and the backlash against Mike "hating" we have an alternate scenario where VDP and Brian never got along, disliked one another's work, etc.

Obviously, it's nobody's fault. But regardless, it's really lame that PR whitewash and Van's inability to let go and move on have robbed us of a more balanced take in TSS book, and a retrospective from the project's lyricist. Now, I've praised Mike's essay for sticking to his guns and setting the record straight and I'm glad it was included. But the fact that the guy who sung a few parts apparently had so much say in this boxset at the expense of the album's original collaborator doesn't sit right with me at all.

We can't know what happened, but something about the compiling of this set definitely ruffled VDP's feathers, and that's a damn shame because this should've been his time to shine as well as Brian.

Even when viewing VDP's non appearance on TSS as a completely separate issue with its own set of reasons/circumstances... I still think that VDP would have had to have his own feelings on the project filtered/muted/muzzled to some degree, if he were to have been part of TSS (and if peace was to have prevailed).

And the thing is, I don't think there has to be a "bad guy" or a "good guy" in this. It's a bunch of flawed people, and hindsight is 20/20. It's just that the people involved should all admit the things they did, acknowledge hurt feelings, and share the contributing factor thing a bit. Just even a little tiny bit. Then there can/could've been be some true forgiveness, at least in the public sense. The "bad guy" thing IMO is a public reaction to a certain someone never, ever even slightly publicly discussing their contributing factor role (or not talking - at the very least - about the reasons why some people would think they are a contributing factor) for 47 years.

Agreed. If Van was approached to contribute an essay then on the subject of the project's collapse he could've kept it to "I didn't feel welcomed by the band, I wanted more of my ideas to be heard, I got a solo album deal, I left" and keep it at that. It's too late to point fingers. Just discuss the music, the inspiration and the memories. Even if it was all Mike's fault, nobody needs a giant "screw you, mike" essay from VDP. An all inclusive retrospective on the project's goals and whatnot would've been nice tho, coming from him.

Whoever's fault it was that he was excluded or made to feel unwelcome to contribute to the book ought to be ashamed. The opportunity will never come again now.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Everyone's arguing and theorising from the premise that VDP was in some way excluded, made to feel unwelcome or ignored concerning the Smile box, and maybe he was. But suppose he wasn't ? 

[Andrew G. Doe]

Is that B-Gas or is it short for Big . . .

Check out a Jan & Dean singles discography, especially the B sides. 

[Andrew G. Doe]

We can't know what happened, but something about the compiling of this set definitely ruffled VDP's feathers, and that's a damn shame because this should've been his time to shine as well as Brian.