Aeijtzsche's Annual Assortment of potentially unsolvable BB mysteries.

[Ebb and Flow]

And, upon listening again, who was playing that "Star Spangled Banner" based riff? I know I've heard that in a song, but cannot remember the song or artist. Whoever it is at Gold Star plays it over and over again, just riffing it constantly on what seems like every break between takes. That had to get annoying...but maybe it was an "in joke" of some kind? Knowing what that damn riff is from could solve that!

For what it's worth, someone made a comment on my BTS video about a year ago claiming the riff is a combination of the "Star Spangled Banner" and "Darktown Strutters' Ball".

[OBLiO]

Just listened to Good Vibrations and I still hear that line as guitar... it sounds like a bass where the tape is damaged. The bass comes in on the 2nd half of the verse. That line is bass? I am sleepy so maybe I need to try again tomorrow.

On the RELEASED version of "Good Vibrations", the main line played behind Carl's vocal is played on a Fender bass (by Ray Pohlman) up high on the neck.  The second bass line that comes in hafway through the verse is the upright bass, played by Lyle Ritz.  There is no guitar on that part of this version of the song (a later alternate version has Carl playing that main line on his guitar, but none of that was used in the 45 edit).  There WERE two guitar players on the session that produced the track used for the verses in the final version, but they were tacet until the choruses, and those choruses weren't used.     

I found your essay here and I am hearing bass now. I think I also had it in my head that when they played the song live, Carl played that line on guitar. Question: was the Fender Bass VI used? It's interesting that Brian says "Fender Bass" instead of just "bass" or "electric bass". The gauge on the extra strings could make the sound more guitar-like. Anything definite on the actual instrument used? Thanks.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Just listened to Good Vibrations and I still hear that line as guitar... it sounds like a bass where the tape is damaged. The bass comes in on the 2nd half of the verse. That line is bass? I am sleepy so maybe I need to try again tomorrow.

On the RELEASED version of "Good Vibrations", the main line played behind Carl's vocal is played on a Fender bass (by Ray Pohlman) up high on the neck.  The second bass line that comes in hafway through the verse is the upright bass, played by Lyle Ritz.  There is no guitar on that part of this version of the song (a later alternate version has Carl playing that main line on his guitar, but none of that was used in the 45 edit).  There WERE two guitar players on the session that produced the track used for the verses in the final version, but they were tacet until the choruses, and those choruses weren't used.    

I found your essay here and I am hearing bass now. I think I also had it in my head that when they played the song live, Carl played that line on guitar. Question: was the Fender Bass VI used? It's interesting that Brian says "Fender Bass" instead of just "bass" or "electric bass". The gauge on the extra strings could make the sound more guitar-like. Anything definite on the actual instrument used? Thanks.

The Fender Bass VI was not seemingly very popular among the studio people at that time, although I think Craig "C-man" has speculated that it could be on something...was it Salt Lake City?

"Fender Bass" was, in those days, a reflection of Fender's pre-eminence in making electric basses; like Kneenex or Xerox, the brand was very identified with electric basses at the time.  If a 6-string bass was ever used (and it was, a lot) it would normally be a Danelectro brand.  I've seen photos of a few models in use in the studio in that era, either the two horn or the single cutaway.

In some ways, using the brand names was a way to distinguish between what kind of bass an arranger wanted.  And since the type of bass was so prevalent, in the case of basses, we often know exactly what was used (unlike the guitar situation here, for instance.)

Good Vibrations is just a 4-string, Fender P-bass in my opinion.  Typically the 6-strings were used to add a lot of high end definition to the bass line, but Brian always blurred the lines there.  There is, in my opinion, 6-string Danelectro bass on WIBN, That's Not Me, Possibly Sloop John, quite likely God Only Knows, and plenty of stuff before and after Pet Sounds.

The guys in Brian's band use the Dano for some things that were probably just 4-string, but you never know I guess.

C-man, do chime in here, I've been wanting your opinions about basses on Pet Sounds for years now!

[guitarfool2002]

"Fender Bass" was a generic term for electric bass, that's correct. We have photos of Kaye, Pohlman, Jamerson, even Brian Wilson-Glen Campbell-Bruce Johnston playing the Fender Precision Bass - *that* was still the standard, and was the first electric bass Fender sold.

The Jazz Bass was an upstart - one of the few LA players using one regularly on sessions was Joe Osborn. For decades both the P-bass and J-bass go in and out of style with musicians.

The Bass VI was not popular with studio players, although Fender endorsers would have had one. Danelectro owned the tic-toc bass market, although more studio players replaced the wooden bridge with a better one that could intonate better.

Plenty of reasons to think most of Pet Sounds' electric bass sounds came from a Fender P-bass.

[OBLiO]

That Fender bass sound is just classic Ray Pohlman, too.  I've never been able to definitively tell if that great sound he gets is all palm muting or if the built-in Fender mute colors the sound as well--I get pretty close with palm muting.  But just listening to GV then comparing that with IJWMFTT or Here Today, and you can tell it is the same player.  Carol doesn't quite get the same sound, even when she goes for it.  Which she certainly doesn't when she demonstrates the line these days, going for a much smoother sound.

I think you might be right about the built-in muting. The bass doesn't open up on Good Vibrations until the chorus and that's where Carl's playing comes in. Listened to IJWMFTT and Here Today and yes, there it is. Here Today is really a great tune and I am guessing that's Ray Pohlman playing the surf slide down, too. And the first thing I noticed in the documentary trailer is that Carol didn't play it the way it sounds on the record.

[guitarfool2002]

Notice one element common to almost every guitar shown in the classic Wrecking Crew photos - the lack of a tremolo bridge, the "whammy bar". On most of their sessions they used guitars with a hardtail bridge, unless it specifically called for a tremolo-equipped guitar for surf or whatever. Most photos I've seen are Telecasters and not Strats, Jags, or Jazzmasters.

The Fender Bass VI had a whammy bar bridge. More prone to slipping out of tune during a session. Danelectros had a hardtail bridge. More user-friendly!

[Jay]

It just occured to me that a relative of mine has an old Gibson mandolin. I believe it belonged to my great grandpa. It predates the period we're talking about(1966) by about 40 or so years. Still, I wonder if it would sound anything like the WIBN intro, provided it's played through the right amp/setting(s), etc.

[guitarfool2002]

It just occured to me that a relative of mine has an old Gibson mandolin. I believe it belonged to my great grandpa. It predates the period we're talking about(1966) by about 40 or so years. Still, I wonder if it would sound anything like the WIBN intro, provided it's played through the right amp/setting(s), etc.

If someone in your family has a Gibson mandolin from the 20's, I wouldn't worry too much about the WIBN intro  ...that mandolin could be quite a collectible, very valuable, and highly sought after by players and collectors. If there is a signature in that mandolin by someone named "Lloyd Loar", that mandolin is money in the bank, a family heirloom. No joke. Depending on what exactly it is. Get it appraised and insured, I'm being serious. Six figure value if it's signed by Loar.

If not a Loar, a regular Gibson mando from the 20's is still quite valuable.

[OBLiO]

I reckoned the Fender bass reference was just that at first until I saw that the possibility of Fender Bass VI. Whammy bars can be removed. It's kind of strange that bass has a whammy in the first place isn't it. Maybe it's possible a lighter gauge string was used on the P bass and played high up. The other thing that had me on the guitar sound is the reverb or echo on the pick sound. It sounds a bit like a rock-a-billy guitar delay. Sharp pick attack echo. Maybe the bass went through a guitar amp with that reverb. Just another thought. Also, were the strings flat wound or round. The J-Bass was around in '65, too. I am pretty sure the Jazz basses were using a maple fretboard and the P bass used rosewood.
Is there any other stuff out there where you can hear the bass called "Fender Bass" other than that one spot?
Also I made reference to a G chord earlier and it's actually an F chord. I was tuned down a whole step when I tried messing with that little guitar riff. Why did Geddy Lee order a Jaco signature fretless P-bass and have frets put back on when Jaco's bass started as a fretted bass whereupon he removed the frets. Strange. 

[Micha]

My point - if the AFM sheet says she's there but there's nothing on the tapes to support that, I'd go with your ears.

Do you mean to say that AFM sheets could be wrong? 

[Andrew G. Doe]

My point - if the AFM sheet says she's there but there's nothing on the tapes to support that, I'd go with your ears.

Do you mean to say that AFM sheets could be wrong? 

 

[Jay]

It just occured to me that a relative of mine has an old Gibson mandolin. I believe it belonged to my great grandpa. It predates the period we're talking about(1966) by about 40 or so years. Still, I wonder if it would sound anything like the WIBN intro, provided it's played through the right amp/setting(s), etc.

If someone in your family has a Gibson mandolin from the 20's, I wouldn't worry too much about the WIBN intro  ...that mandolin could be quite a collectible, very valuable, and highly sought after by players and collectors. If there is a signature in that mandolin by someone named "Lloyd Loar", that mandolin is money in the bank, a family heirloom. No joke. Depending on what exactly it is. Get it appraised and insured, I'm being serious. Six figure value if it's signed by Loar.

If not a Loar, a regular Gibson mando from the 20's is still quite valuable.

It was appraised once at a five figure sum, but that was several years ago. It's a very secretive item among the family. I've known about it since I was a little kid, and I've never seen it. I haven't even seen a picture of it.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Maybe it's possible a lighter gauge string was used on the P bass and played high up.

On the contrary, the bass players in LA studios at least felt that heavy strings recorded best.  Carol has said that she played with as heavy strings as she could handle.

The other thing that had me on the guitar sound is the reverb or echo on the pick sound. It sounds a bit like a rock-a-billy guitar delay. Sharp pick attack echo. Maybe the bass went through a guitar amp with that reverb. Just another thought.

Brian almost always wanted a heavy pick sound on his records.  Carol Kaye played exclusively with a pick and Ray et. al usually adapted to Brian's wants.  In those days, what they considered to be a bass amp is now considered a guitar amp:  the Fender Bassman.  Special bass amps, though, were still a thing of the future in some ways.  Ray used a Bassman, Carol a Fender Super Reverb, both 4x10 guitar amps.  And while they certainly could have added reverb at the amp, most everything went through the studio's echo chamber and a lot got sent through tape slap.

Also, were the strings flat wound or round.

Flats.

The J-Bass was around in '65, too.

Yeah, but as guitarfool mentioned, the Jazz just didn't have the cachet in that particular studio culture.  Osborn is really the only guy who played one that I can think of.

Is there any other stuff out there where you can hear the bass called "Fender Bass" other than that one spot?

Basically any song ever recorded with a P-bass?  It's not some occult thing, to the people in the recording business circa the 1960s, "Fender Bass" is just a synonym for an electric bass guitar.  In the 60s, it just so happened that this most often happened to be a P-bass because of that model's domination, but Carol talks about how even after she switched brands, some older producers would still call it "Fender Bass."

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

My point - if the AFM sheet says she's there but there's nothing on the tapes to support that, I'd go with your ears.

Do you mean to say that AFM sheets could be wrong? 

In seriousness, they can be wrong, but most often they aren't, in terms of actual personnel.

Yes, there could be some manipulation, but, seeing as most people like to be payed, it was in everybody's best interest to get those right.

[bgas]

Can someone explain to me, the meaning of /difference in Flat wound or round wound strings?  ( since I don't play) Do they sound different when played? 

Also, how about  playing "High up" ? Does that mean closer to the body of the guitar, or closer to the tuners? Cuz the way I think of it, High up on the neck would be closer to the tuners( but I have the feeling I'm thinking in reverse) 

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

After all of this, are we any closer to answering the original question, namely who is playing what and what are they playing on that intro? It felt like it all came around in a loop, and the bottom line remains we still think two 12-string electric guitars played that part. We've looked at AFM sheets, listened to every session tape available, and it feels like we're at the starting gate again. Brian said as much, that two 12-string electrics played that part.

On this question, we do seem to have made a loop.  I think it truly is unsolvable, at least to the level I'm interested in, which would be to know, for example, that "Barney was the bottom guitar and played a Fender XII, and Jerry Cole was on the main line and played a Vox Mark XII."

I think I'm spoiled from knowing exactitudes like that from a lot of other tracks, where you can hear who's playing a certain guitar, or whatever.  Well, we had a good conversation about it at least.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Can someone explain to me, the meaning of /difference in Flat wound or round wound strings?  ( since I don't play) Do they sound different when played? 

Also, how about  playing "High up" ? Does that mean closer to the body of the guitar, or closer to the tuners? Cuz the way I think of it, High up on the neck would be closer to the tuners( but I have the feeling I'm thinking in reverse) 

Flat Wounds and Round Wounds do sound different, hard to describe, and it's a subtle difference.  It's actually a fairly literal description; thick guitar strings have a core that is wrapped in metal, rather than being just a long single wire.  Rounds have a core which is wrapped with a round length of metal, which leaves a textured surface, like if you were to stack a bunch of donuts.  Flats end up smooth because the wrapping is flat.  If take your pick and run it down the length of a string, rounds will make a sound like a guiro, with flats there would be no such sound, it would just be like running your pick on a flat piece of metal.


High up means close to the body, in order to play higher notes.  It's the ability to play ranges of notes that determines the highness or depth when describing the fingerboard, not any spatial direction.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

So how are we doing?

1.  What ever happened to CBS engineer Ralph Balantin, who is is credited on Pet Sounds but seems to have avoided any other mention anywhere?

We learned that it's actually Ralph Valentin, whom I will have to investigate.  Considering his presence at some historic sessions, it still seems to bad he's never had anything to say about recording the Beach Boys.

2.  Precisely what sort, make, and model of stringed instrument is it that plays the WIBN intro?

We shall never know this to the level of detail I seek, unless a secret photo turns up.

3.  If a full session tape for "That's Not Me" exists (does it?) why wasn't it booted?

Still uncertain.

4.  What exactly is going on in the guitars on I Know there's an Answer?  Are they special, i.e. abnormal?

No progress, also pretty unknowable.

5.  I still can't definitively hear that there are two electric basses on GOK after 10 years of obsessive listening to the session.  Are there?

Still a mystery to me!

6.  Is the second harpsichord on YSBIM overdubbed after the main session?  If not, why does it sound like it is totally isolated on its track?

We have Mark saying it's not OD-ed but at least I know I'm not the only one who seems to think that's not possible.

7.  Why does there seem to be such a paucity of a photographic record for Beach Boys instrumental tracking sessions?

Still unknown why the record is so bad for sure--but there's still hope.

[guitarfool2002]

Hope is lost on WIBN! At least not yet...

I may have worded it the wrong way, but what I was getting at in that long post was the possibility of turning the page upside down in a way, and looking at the research from a different angle. The resources here are fantastic, and all the avenues we've pursued, centered around the instruments and the studio,  have led the same way. Has there ever been a specific request for photos? We know several collections of photos and collectors of photos - barring any legal issues wouldn't asking for a scan through a collection be a good next step?

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Hope is lost on WIBN! At least not yet...

I may have worded it the wrong way, but what I was getting at in that long post was the possibility of turning the page upside down in a way, and looking at the research from a different angle. The resources here are fantastic, and all the avenues we've pursued, centered around the instruments and the studio,  have led the same way. Has there ever been a specific request for photos? We know several collections of photos and collectors of photos - barring any legal issues wouldn't asking for a scan through a collection be a good next step?

Certainly.  I'm not sure where to begin, though. 

[Andrew G. Doe]

Can someone explain to me, the meaning of /difference in Flat wound or round wound strings?  ( since I don't play) Do they sound different when played?  

Also, how about  playing "High up" ? Does that mean closer to the body of the guitar, or closer to the tuners? Cuz the way I think of it, High up on the neck would be closer to the tuners( but I have the feeling I'm thinking in reverse)  

I'm thinking 'high' in this instance means closer to the body, not by the top nut. Thus it would sound, er, 'plinkier'.

[guitarfool2002]

A few things to add:

1. Oblio: You can remove a whammy bar but the problem would still be there. It's the way the bridge is not fixed down to the body and "floats" with tension from springs that causes the issues. It's been an issue since the 50's on Strats. I've had a Strat since 1989 and I finally had to tighten the bridge down to the body to avoid the tuning issues rather than installing a custom device to fix it or something. Even going to drop D throws the other strings out of tune, and in the worst cases you try to bend a string and the other strings audibly go out of tune, which is bad if you do a lot of pedal steel style bends.

2. Adding to the string discussion from a guitar angle: Flatwounds also have a "warmer" sound and don't produce string noise (squeaks) when you're moving up or down the neck while playing, which can be good for recording based on the situation. I have them on my hollowbody guitar for jazzy stuff and mellow friggin' sounds, and I'd estimate most jazz players you see with hollowbody guitars have flatwound strings on them.

With electric basses, weren't flatwounds pretty much all you'd have on electric basses until Rotosounds caught on in the 60's?

[guitarfool2002]

To a guitarist "played high" would usually mean above the 12th fret and "low" would be closer to open position, usually frets 0 to 5. In teaching guitar it can be confusing to beginners because what normally would be going "up" to a beginning player actually looks like "down". Up the neck is sliding from the 1st fret to 8th fret like the bass intro on Lou Reed's "Walk On The Wild Side", sliding down the neck is Dick Dale's intro to Misirlou or Pipeline by the Chantays.

[guitarfool2002]

Ha! I just noticed my use of the word  finger picking as in the guitar style must have gotten flagged and was replaced by "friggin"! That's too funny.

Fingerpicking!

[OBLiO]

Can someone explain to me, the meaning of /difference in Flat wound or round wound strings?  ( since I don't play) Do they sound different when played?  

Also, how about  playing "High up" ? Does that mean closer to the body of the guitar, or closer to the tuners? Cuz the way I think of it, High up on the neck would be closer to the tuners( but I have the feeling I'm thinking in reverse)  

It was John Entwistle, from The Who, that brought attention to the round wound string usage in the 60's. Steve Harris, from Iron Maiden, uses flat wound strings and has his own signature string. The rounds have a bite and the flats are smooth. The flat wound strings are used on upright basses, so when electric basses were designed they used flat wound and then the round wounds were developed and have now become the standard.

"High up" refers to the notes. The Low notes are near the tuning keys and the higher notes near the body. guitarfool mentioned Dick Dale and that's what I meant when I said surf slide down with a fast pick... the notes go down... sliding down away from the body toward the tuning keys while picking really really fast. No, I mean really really fast. In "Here Today" you can hear the fast picking slide down, which I believe is the bass, during the "you've got to keep in mind love is here" vocal line.