"Heroes and VIllains, Part 2":Does it, or did it ever exist?

[PhilCohen]

As for "Heroes and Villains,Part Two"(intended B-side of the unreleased "Smile"-era "Heroes and Villains" single), does it, or did it ever exist? This question may(or may not) be answered by the new "Smile" box set. The sequence of 8 segments  with "My children were raised..." as the 7th segment  and concluding with the Heroes and Villains chorus(which debuted on the Japanese T-2580 bootleg CD) has been widely thought to be "Part 2"

[bossaroo]

Brian was planning a double-sided 45 at one point, was he not?
Mark Linnett has confirmed that there is a longer version of 'Heroes' than the ones we know about.

I disagree that part 2 would have been just the "sections" that are found in your Big O collection.

I think part 1 was the Cantina mix that ends with a tag, and part 2 would have included more sections and concluded with the "boy/girl" and "sunny down snuff" bits.

[Runaways]

i've always enjoyed the "MOK" 8 minute h&v mix.  if they made a mix incorporating that "the heroes the heroes the heroes and villains" and the "he gives speeches" "aaahhh duuum dum dum de do be doo" thing, then i'd be happy. 

[PhilCohen]

Brian was planning a double-sided 45 at one point, was he not?
Mark Linnett has confirmed that there is a longer version of 'Heroes' than the ones we know about.

I disagree that part 2 would have been just the "sections" that are found in your Big O collection.

I think part 1 was the Cantina mix that ends with a tag, and part 2 would have included more sections and concluded with the "boy/girl" and "sunny down snuff" bits.

In assembling my version of "Smile", I went by "the book"......Domenic Priore's 2nd edition of "Look Listen, Vibrate,Smile". Whether Priore was correct or incorrect, there's no doubt that I followed his "instructions"  exactly "to the letter". Priore's version of "Smile" would have fit onto two sides of a vinyl record, whereas BWPS wouldn't have, and doesn't.

[18thofMay]

Brian was planning a double-sided 45 at one point, was he not?
Mark Linnett has confirmed that there is a longer version of 'Heroes' than the ones we know about.

I disagree that part 2 would have been just the "sections" that are found in your Big O collection.

I think part 1 was the Cantina mix that ends with a tag, and part 2 would have included more sections and concluded with the "boy/girl" and "sunny down snuff" bits.

In assembling my version of "Smile", I went by "the book"......Domenic Priore's 2nd edition of "Look Listen, Vibrate,Smile". Whether Priore was correct or incorrect, there's no doubt that I followed his "instructions"  exactly "to the letter". Priore's version of "Smile" would have fit onto two sides of a vinyl record, whereas BWPS wouldn't have, and doesn't.

I really wish I did not like your "Smile" stuff..

[guitarfool2002]

Brian had the concept in mind, with the tracks actually being slated in the control room as "part 2" or whatever, but I think the notion of a finished "part 2" may have fallen victim to Brian's 1967 tinkering and re-making/re-recording, after that brilliant burst of work energy in late '66 which saw a lot more of his more complete musical ideas realized. It seems the focus and energy shifted to repetitive short passages and unnecessary re-makes. Not saying there were not some brilliant moments...

Finding a new archived test edit of anything connected to "part 2" would be quite a holy grail of a find, if said test edit exists.

[buddhahat]

As for "Heroes and Villains,Part Two"(intended B-side of the unreleased "Smile"-era "Heroes and Villains" single), does it, or did it ever exist? This question may(or may not) be answered by the new "Smile" box set. The sequence of 8 segments  with "My children were raised..." as the 7th segment  and concluding with the Heroes and Villains chorus(which debuted on the Japanese T-2580 bootleg CD) has been widely thought to be "Part 2"

One of the boots, maybe archaeology, has a Brian edit of the heroes sections which is very similar to the Linnet edit on the GV box, except it is missing Gee from the start, and False Barnyard from the end. Interestingly you can hear on this edit that Swedish Frog has been spilced out - maybe to use for another tack, who knows?

My personal hunch was that the initial Heroes part 2 kicked off with Heroes Intro, plus maybe the minor key bicycle rider variations, and then subsequently Brian scrapped this and recorded Gee as the intro to Heroes part 2 and all the major key bicycle rider variations as the main body of it.

I would dearly love to see an unearthed, unbooted Heroes mix as part of this new box, although won't be holding my breath for any unbooted stuff.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Don't believe there ever was a "Part 2". Never have, never will.

[buddhahat]

Don't believe there ever was a "Part 2". Never have, never will.

The most convincing evidence for me is the existence of Heroes Intro. It's titled as an intro, but surely wouldn't have been an intro the main single, which only leaves the option of it kicking off a 2nd incarnation of H&V i.e. a B side.

Gee, to my ears, clearly sounds like an intro, but I very much doubt Brian ever intended to start H&V with it so that leaves another potential intro track for side 2.

[Phoenix]

My thought was "Part Two" only existed as being the second part of a song called "Heroes And Villains".  As I've said before, my guess on the mythical "long version" is the Cantina version, up through the tape explosion, right into the first chorus of the regular single version (with no "Barnshine").  I always thought the "Part Two" tag came from that section being the second half of the song, following the obvious split point for the single, if it were spread over both sides of the 45. 

I don't think anyone ever pondered over the writing or recording of a Don McLean song called "American Pie Part Two" even though that was the "title" to the B-side of "American Pie".

Hopefully that makes sense.  It is kinda late.

[Phoenix]

Also I think the intro, like the prayer, would have been an unlisted "hidden" track, beating the Beatles' "Her Majesty" to it by two years and even their "Sgt. Pepper Inner Groove" by several months

[Andrew G. Doe]

although won't be holding my breath for any unbooted stuff.

Reading what's been printed recently, I think you're wrong.

[buddhahat]

although won't be holding my breath for any unbooted stuff.

Reading what's been printed recently, I think you're wrong.

I, too, find the comments from Mark Linnet very heartening as regards stuff that even the bootleggers haven't got hold of, and also a longer version of H&V that he suggests is kicking about. However the pessimist in me is erring on the side of caution with all this. A) They may well have found unbooted material but it may not necessarily make the cut for the final tracklisting, B) the longer version of H&V that Mark describes caould just be the sections we already know and not necessarily an unbooted vintage edit (surely that would just be too good to be true!) and C) That Linnett interview is peppered full of typos so there's plenty of room for chinese-whisper-syndrome if you ask me!

But I've been proven wrong by your optimistic forecasts once already in the last week and am happy to be proven wrong again! 

[Cam Mott]

I don't know anything about any new material discovered, so that may change things. But as things stand now it seems to me you can make a case for or against an H&V Part/Side 2.

I think the case for is stronger. You have two scenesters who claim it was intended or existed and you have tracks identified as Part/Side 2 with their own master numbers which are recorded concurrently with the H&V tracks not identified as Part/side 2 under a different master number. As far as I can tell now, coincidently all of the so far identified Part/side two tracks are samples of non-H&V SMiLE album tracks.

Interesting either way.

[A Million Units In Jan!]

I would dearly love to see an unearthed, unbooted Heroes mix as part of this new box, although won't be holding my breath for any unbooted stuff.

That's what I thought at first until I read Mark's interview.  He knows what's out there in 'Unofficial Cd land', and a lot of times in the past people have said 'there isn't anything new' or 'everyone pretty much has heard it all'. IIRC he didn't say anything like that this time around.  I'm pretty confident we will hear new stuff. It may not be the stuff we want, but it will be new.

[Runaways]

he actually said most of it will be new.  which probably isn't true, but cool.

[guitarfool2002]

Am I wrong in remembering that there are/were several Heroes sessions where the track about to be recorded is slated in the control room as "part 2" or something similar? As I wrote above there seems to have been a part 2 at least in the concept stage.

[buddhahat]

Am I wrong in remembering that there are/were several Heroes sessions where the track about to be recorded is slated in the control room as "part 2" or something similar? As I wrote above there seems to have been a part 2 at least in the concept stage.

There is the Heroes part that sounds like a precursor to Do A Lot that the engineer names as Part 1 Tag. It's a fade to the single as far as I can tell. Why would you name a piece Part 1 Tag, if you weren't intending to create a part 2? This debunks the argument (imo) that Brian often split single songs up into parts for the purpose of recording, and that is why some Heroes sessions are called part 2, not because Brian was actually recording a 2 part single. The fact we have a definite fade called Part 1 Tag seems good evidence for a two part H&V to me. Think about it - part 1 has a tag. There is a Heroes Intro, which clearly wasn't intended as an intro to the main single. It's a no brainer if you ask me.

[Chris Brown]

Am I wrong in remembering that there are/were several Heroes sessions where the track about to be recorded is slated in the control room as "part 2" or something similar? As I wrote above there seems to have been a part 2 at least in the concept stage.

There is the Heroes part that sounds like a precursor to Do A Lot that the engineer names as Part 1 Tag. It's a fade to the single as far as I can tell. Why would you name a piece Part 1 Tag, if you weren't intending to create a part 2? This debunks the argument (imo) that Brian often split single songs up into parts for the purpose of recording, and that is why some Heroes sessions are called part 2, not because Brian was actually recording a 2 part single. The fact we have a definite fade called Part 1 Tag seems good evidence for a two part H&V to me. Think about it - part 1 has a tag. There is a Heroes Intro, which clearly wasn't intended as an intro to the main single. It's a no brainer if you ask me.

I agree.  Who knows whether a part 2 would have ever actually ended up being released, but the evidence definitely suggests that the idea was in Brian's mind for awhile. 

I'd have to look over recording dates, but I think that perhaps part 2 was intended to be the second side of the single release, and not on the Smile album itself (thus allowing Brian to keep as much of Smile a secret as possible).  As fascinating as the sections that were supposedly intended for part 2 are, I'm not sure they could stand alone as a distinct album track.  I just can't see any other use for a lot of those sections, as they don't really seem to fit within any versions of the Heroes single we've heard.

[Mr. Cohen]

Or maybe Brian was experimenting with two versions of the same song?

[hypehat]

I mean, this stuff is basically impossible to pin down. For instance, on the 'Dum-Dum-Dum' session, Chuck calls out 'Version 4, Part 2'. Is that a 4th version of Heroes & Villains? the song? as in the entire piece? or just the chants? if it's just the chants, why is it part 2? Etcetera, etecera.

Sure, i think a 'Part Two' for Heroes & Villains existed. I think the acapella chants would have been an amazing b-side to the single, but he never finished the damn things and changed his mind! *mashes keyboard in frustration* 

[buddhahat]

As fascinating as the sections that were supposedly intended for part 2 are, I'm not sure they could stand alone as a distinct album track.  I just can't see any other use for a lot of those sections, as they don't really seem to fit within any versions of the Heroes single we've heard.

I agree  - a lot of those Heroes sections are quite repetitive. Beautiful, but repetitive in a sort of "look what we can do" way. I think that they were designed for the Heroes b side makes perfect sense. They are throwaway - an advert for the album, but not part of the album proper.

[Les P]

Don't believe there ever was a "Part 2". Never have, never will.

So your belief is those long "the heroes, the heroes..." and "dit dit dit, heroes and villains" chants were actually meant to be part of the A side at one point?  Because to me they have always sounded like a throwaway B side (as others here have said). 

[Bicyclerider]

I'm with Cam - there definitely were plans to do a Heroes Part 2 at one point.  Whether it was finished is unclear - Chuck Britz said it was finished and mixed, but we don't have it in the tape archive.

As another poster mentioned, there is a mixed edit of the Heroes "sections" on the Sea of Tunes boot which has the "Swedish frog" edited out but otherwise sounds like it could have been a Part 2 in progress.  We have reports of five and six minute versions of Heroes which sounds like Parts 1 and 2 together (not split into two parts yet) - I don't think Brian would have released a six minute Heroes single as it would be unlikely to get much airplay (despite the success of the long Dylan Rolling Stone).  Hopefully this is the longer version Mark is referring to - possibly the same as on Al's acetate (or Bruce's).

[Roger Ryan]

Don't believe there ever was a "Part 2". Never have, never will.

So your belief is those long "the heroes, the heroes..." and "dit dit dit, heroes and villains" chants were actually meant to be part of the A side at one point?  Because to me they have always sounded like a throwaway B side (as others here have said). 

Regardless of whether the chants were intended for a B-side or not, they work really well as replacements for the "Bicycle Rider" chorus!