How good a guitar player was Carl?

[Mike's Beard]

The Monkees are the most underrated group of all time. Their work between "Headquarters" and "Head" is just amazing. Mike Nesmith in particular is in that upper bracket of 60's songwriters.

[guitarfool2002]

I just wanted to say how great it is to see other fans of the Monkees posting the comments! I have been listening to the fantastic "Headquarters Sessions" box this past week, and it always puts a smile on my face and reminds me why The Monkees were and are one of my biggest musical influences since I first started playing!

"The Girl I Knew Somewhere" could be one of the greatest singles of the 60's, and I mean that from all perspectives: songwriting (Nesmith), production (Chip Douglas and Hank Cicalo), performance, and historical context. On the session tapes you can hear Micky struggling with the drum fills as Peter Tork talks him through the parts. They struggle with the song, but they're working hard on it, and the results on the final released version are quite amazing considering they were not expected to be able to record anything of quality as a self-contained band. Yet try to play along with Micky's drumming on that track, or Mike's guitar, or Peter's sublime harpsichord solo which always makes me smile. It's quite a record! And quite a moment of truth for the so-called "manufactured" band who was out to prove themselves.

Micky Dolenz could have survived a career as simply the "voice" of The Monkees, and his voice was perfect for the music. He did have one of the most distinctive voices on top-40 radio in the 60's, and not only with his tone but in the way he'd make a song so personal, such as the already mentioned "As We Go Along" and "Porpoise Song" and also the early album cuts like "Sometime In The Morning" and Headquarters' "I'll Spend My Life With You". He had one of the more intimate voices of that era in pop. But he also took one for the team and took up the drums, and worked hard at that too.

Micky was a natural creative talent, beyond his vocals, but it also seems he needed people to bring it out of him and encourage him, and maybe when he didn't have that his creative nature made him want to move onto the next discovery instead of working through what he had started. I think it was Chip Douglas who said he was "incapable of repeating his triumphs" when working in the studio, which could mean you had to get him on that one special take (like the 100% live Circle Sky) before he moved onto another thing.

And as was written many times before, compare Micky's Moog part on "Daily Nightly" to Paul Beaver's Moog part on "Star Collector" (Beaver sold Micky the Moog...). Micky's is pure creativity with a sense of the unknown and unexpected, while Beaver's is technically great and musically "out". Both are stunning, both are groundbreaking, but Micky's Moog parts are as fleeting and as unique as I guess Micky himself was! Would anyone else have recorded those parts on a major album in 1967 with literally no previous reference on how to play that instrument, since it was brand new?

Underrated isn't even the word for that music!

[Mike's Beard]

As much as I love The Monkees, Davy Jones will always be to me what Mike Love is to oldsurferdude.

[bgas]

As much as I love The Monkees, Davy Jones will always be to me what Mike Love is to oldsurferdude.

Lover? Best Friend?

[Mike's Beard]

As much as I love The Monkees, Davy Jones will always be to me what Mike Love is to oldsurferdude.

Lover? Best Friend?

An annoying butthole.

[adamghost]

I think you could make an argument that Davy Jones is to the Monkees as was Mike Love to the Beach Boys...without necessarily going the "butthole" route, but it's a fair observation in terms of their roles in the band.

I could go on and on talking about the awesomeness of Dolenz in particular and the whole Monkees project in general.  I'll pull in a Beach Boys tie-in and say that I was extremely skeptical of them for years and it was Darian Sahanaja who convinced me otherwise.  He loaned me his Monkees box set and then his entire VHS collection of the series (which I still have), and I was blown away by the depth and breadth of their catalog. Relative to the amount of time they were recording, they have as many if not more quality tracks than just about any band out there.  Of course, it wasn't really a fair comparison, since you had four guys recording separately plus a wealth of talent backing them up on the songwriting and playing end.  So you have to apportion credit out to a lot of people.

But, yeah...Dolenz and Nesmith.  I am not quite as high on Nesmith's songwriting as most people are (though it was damn good) but I friggin' LOVE that guy's voice, too.  What tone, especially in the higher register.  They didn't do it a lot but when they harmonized together it was just magic.  I remember not long ago on Facebook someone was dissing on the Monkees and I posted a long response in the form of a list of "50 undeniable Monkees tracks" and it was surprisingly easy to compile.

Speaking of Dolenz's tours de force, what about "I'm Goin' Down"?  Stunning.  I've played that for people and said "guess who this is." And no one EVER has a clue.  And everything that was said upthread I agree with...spot on.  Especially when the guy was singing Carole King.  SPINE chilling.  I agree that he was perhaps the best interpreter of her material ever, and that's saying a lot.  Porpoise Song, As We Go Along, Sometime In The Morning, Pleasant Valley Sunday...WOW.  In general I like the Monkees better when they're interpreting other songwriters, though there's no denying all four of them came up with some strong material on their own (even Jones, on the Neil Young-driven "You And I").

Did anyone hear their reunion album 15 years ago?  It was kind of bad, but in a completely stubborn, unique way that made absolutely no concessions to anyone's expectations, like they had been to Mars for the last 25 years.  I kind of like that instead of trying and failing to recapture something, they just decided to go down in flames doing their own thing.  The best song on it sounded like Z.Z. Top.  The worst song on it sounded like Sting.

[Steve Mayo]

love nez's music. i think his lp "and the hits just keep on comin'" is one great lp.

www.videoranch.com to get papa nez's tunes.

and micky's last lp, king for a day, is a good one also

[adamghost]

I actually had a song on my last album called "The Night I Bought Micky Dolenz A Beer," btw.

[Mike's Beard]

My reasons for disliking Jones are not so much for his lack of musical ablilty but because of all the shitty things he has said about the other members in the past decade. Plus many of the groups weaker songs are from him. Compare that to 'the Nez' who didn't make a bad song during the Monkees.

[adamghost]

I get the sense that all of the guys have issues with one another, and it's perfectly understandable...they were all thrown together and were all very, very different personalities, and they've kind of been tied to one another psychically for 40+ years now.  I cut those fellows an enormous amount of slack.  Being in a close working environment such as the road with people who you respect, but have very little in common with, is a tough bitch.  And you can bet they're all just a little bitter (Nes probably excepted) at the shadow the Monkees thing has cast over their career.  Dolenz at least put together a credible career as a director and voice over dude.

I did a gig opening for Peter Tork a year or two ago, and the guy was just hounded by this one old-record-geek-posing-as-journalist-dude who was asking him the most asinine questions imaginable, and I was thinking, good God, he's been putting up with this since 1966.  He was much more graceful about it than I would have been.  I don't think I could have put up with a lot of what they did.  The Beach Boys had a rough time too, but the money was probably better for longer with them, and they got to tour and make many records beyond their heydey, so at least there was a better tradeoff there. 

[Magic Transistor Radio]

I am also a Monkees fan, but mainly because of Mickey's voice. I am not too crazy about Nez' songwriting though. Davey reminds me of Bruce with Mike's musical talent. Peter Tork is interesting.

Does anybody know why Peter didn't become the drummer since he knew how to do it?

[adamghost]

I am also a Monkees fan, but mainly because of Mickey's voice. I am not too crazy about Nez' songwriting though. Davey reminds me of Bruce with Mike's musical talent. Peter Tork is interesting.

Does anybody know why Peter didn't become the drummer since he knew how to do it?

Actually what I've read was that Davy Jones was actually the most talented drummer in the group.  The problem was he was so short you couldn't see him over the kit.  I believe Mike Nesmith said that if they'd apportioned it according to talent, it would have been Davy on drums, Peter on guitar, Mike on bass, and Micky on vox. 

[Mike's Beard]

I've read or heard that Peter had the ability to play pretty much any instrument at session musician level. It's odd that he was always the least dominant force in the band.

[adamghost]

I've read or heard that Peter had the ability to play pretty much any instrument at session musician level. It's odd that he was always the least dominant force in the band.

I think it has to do with him being the least driven/organized member.  He was the one who always wanted the group to function as a group, whereas the other guys were more or less doing their own thing to some degree and pushing their own agendas.  In that political situation, that's how it's usually going to play out.  (This has a lot to do with how Mike Love wound up being the dominant force in the Beach Boys as well...90% of success as they say, is just showing up...and Mike is the most organized mind -- in the conventional sense -- and the most dominant ego of the original five BBs)

Secondarily, the Monkees were primarily a vocal band in the studio (besides a few stray tracks they really only played on HEADQUARTERS, PISCES and part of HEAD), and Peter was by far the least talented singer in the band, so his ability to contribute was going to be limited to those occasions when the band recorded as a band or used the other players on their tracks (which more often than not wasn't the case...even when the guys weren't using session players they often liked to use friends or family members like Bill London or Coco Dolenz), or on tracks that Tork himself spearheaded as a writer or singer (which happened even less).

I read recently that when Tork was working on "Lady's Baby", his working method consisted of inviting his friends over to the session, hanging out all day and recording in 90 minute spurts.  The track wound up costing more than "Good Vibrations" IIRC.  You compared that to how the other three guys worked in the studio (Nes as the taskmaster, Dolenz as the inspired savant, Jones as the guy who showed up and hit his mark), you can see why he didn't wind up really being a driving force in the band.  Now, when it came to actually performing live, Tork was the key to holding it together.  Without him they would probably have been dead.  But on record it was a totally different dynamic.

Put another way, to express his talents, Peter needed the other guys more than they needed him.  A lot of time it's not about being the best or most talented, it's going to be about being the right widget for the right situation.

[c-man]

Here's a good place to put in a plug for the '96 Monkees reunion album "Justus".  As the title implies, they wrote, produced, sang & PLAYED the whole record themselves.  Critics be damned, I love it!  Especially the Dolenz stuff...Mickey just slays me!

[guitarfool2002]

Interesting observations all around! About Peter Tork - I have been listening a lot the past week or so to the "Headquarters Sessions", and I remember a comment from Chip Douglas in an 80's Monkees bio where he ran through the talents of the band members. He was vague, but hearing the sessions I think he was accurate too. My own take:

Mike was a solid rhythm guitarist, and damn good and consistent on the electric 12-string, which is a tough instrument. Davy Jones, apart from his vocals, really didn't do much except play tambourine on a few tracks, and his musical contributions consist of a few lead vocals and that was it. He wasn't much of a driving force at all, and I think the other band members did in fact resent Davy going off on his own to work with Don Kirshner after Mike and Peter specifically wanted Kirshner fired, and fortunately Kirshner was such a jerk that the Monkees' brainpower Rafelson-Schneider agreed with them about Don.

Micky Dolenz was a natural talent, and he was the hardest worker, especially on Headquarters with his drumming. He also plays guitar, contributed some really strong and unique but ultimately too unfinished songs to the project, and seemed to bring the most enthusiasm to the Headquarters album in particular. He was quite a character, and quite a musician too, but there really was not the time to develop his talent in the midst of the wild Monkeemania in 1967, so a lot of it went unfinished and a lot of ideas untapped.

Peter Tork - he was at heart a musician and a real folkie, but hearing the actual tapes he was full of energy though his musicianship was not up to the par of a session player. He had the talent, he had the drive, he's playing at least a half-dozen instruments on Headquarters alone, but his playing for a lot of what I heard was not consistent or rock solid. He'd be playing a killer banjo piece, but he'd hit a lot of dead or fluffed notes. He'd play a killer piano line but miss a left-hand note which would stand out too much as a mistake. He'd be playing an electric guitar lead and again hit too many dead notes in the middle of an otherwise very neat part. His vocals wavered off-key all the time, and it's odd but even his whistling part on Seeger's Theme can come in flat on certain pitches. His time was not as solid as Nesmith on guitar, or as Nesmith's pals filling in on random bass or guitar parts, or even Chip Douglas himself on some pretty rock-solid, amazing bass playing.

Then when given time, as on Lady's Baby, he'd whittle the time away and worry more about having the "party" atmosphere going in the studio complete with Persian rugs incense/candles and kaftans and all the other trappings of that scene and not manage to get a decent take of the tune! I think it was engineer Hank Cicalo who got very annoyed having to record Lady's Baby literally dozens of times with all of the party stuff going on, and never getting a useable take out of any of the folks assembled on the studio floor. Jimi Hendrix did the same thing with hangers=on and groupies but Eddie Kramer fortunately told him he can either cut a good record or have a party every session where Hendrix played to his crowd more than played the song itself. It could have been another scene like Tork and Lady's Baby had Kramer not ended it.

Having said all that, Peter Tork was a genuine, sincere, talented guy who had it not been in the middle of a hurricane around the Monkees and having to record with tight deadlines and touring schedules, he could have flourished more. His harpsichord solo on "Girl I Knew Somewhere" is a mini-masterpiece of a composition, and an integral part of that tune. His piano on Daydream Believer fits the song perfect. His guitar on For Pete's Sake is awesome and awesome-ly hard to recreate! His banjo on You Told Me is a highlight of his entire career, doing that country-rock thang before Bernie Leadon was even an Eagle and before Henley-Frey signed big contracts.

So Peter Tork should not take a back seat to anyone regarding the Monkees, and Micky never hesitates to give Peter praise and thanks for teaching him how to drum and being patient with him as a musician in general. I'd almost call him a mentor to Micky, along with Mike who encouraged Micky's writing. I think Peter Tork was a great person, a big influence, and a genuine lover of music but he wasn't at that time at the level of the session guys.

At the end of the day, the situation they were in did not allow them the time to develop as a band or to fine-tune their individual skills as would be the case in a "normal" band, so things Micky and Peter could have fine-tuned as creative musicians never developed as much as they could have. Davy didn't care, he had the role as the British heartthrob before anyone else was even cast. Mike had his gig solidly in place as a singer-songwriter with a country tinge, which actually was timed early but it worked out for him in the long run. Plus he inherited a fortune!

[adamghost]

Great post, guitarfool.  I think you are spot on in everything you wrote.

When we gigged with Tork a few years ago it made me a little sad in that I felt like the Monkees thing probably prevented Tork from developing into a truly great -- as opposed to very competent -- player.  It would be hard to quantify this but it was like a shadow cast over the whole show, which was with his blues band.  He could never quite REALLY be a full-on blues band, because he was playing to a room full of Monkees fans, and also he didn't quite have the chops that the rest of his band had...and how could he?  The guys in his band probably had lives like most musicians have had, in obscurity and also in total devotion to music.  Even in the Monkees, Tork was an actor first, and he could never really go back to the Greenwich Village mindset, no matter how much I'm sure he would have liked to.  Your focus and priorities change, you have a different set of issues to deal with that knock you off the musician's path.  I think a lot of this is probably a mental thing, the stigma of ridicule of the band, the price it extracts on one's ego and self-confidence, and possibly overreacting in a different direction.  He probably felt and still feels like he had something to prove, and unfortunately, that desire often can be counterproductive.

I say this with great admiration because I gigged with Tork one other time, back in the '90s and he played solo and it was literally one of the very best solo performances I had ever seen.  I learned a lot from watching how he maintained a crowd's attention for that long as a solo performer.  But therein lies the difference between being a great musician and a great entertainer, if that makes any sense.

That's not meant as a diss at Tork's musicianship, btw.  I just think he had a lot of talent that, as guitarfool suggested above, probably was never fully developed as a result of the Monkees meat grinder, and possibly motivation-killing issues arising therefrom.

[Paulos]

As much as I love The Monkees, Davy Jones will always be to me what Mike Love is to oldsurferdude.

A good reason to dislike Davy is' The Day We Fall In Love' from More Of The Monkees, one of the worst songs ever.

[Mike's Beard]

As much as I love The Monkees, Davy Jones will always be to me what Mike Love is to oldsurferdude.

A good reason to dislike Davy is' The Day We Fall In Love' from More Of The Monkees, one of the worst songs ever.

I've never heard that one but if it's worse than "Someday Man" it must be bad!

My favourite Monkee tunes are
1) The Girl I Knew from Somewhere.
2) As We go Along.
3) Auntie's Municipal Court.
4) Randy Scouse Git.
5) Nine Times Blue.

I'm still unclear if "Shorty Blackwell" is a work of genius or one of the worst things I've ever heard in my life.

[Paulos]

As much as I love The Monkees, Davy Jones will always be to me what Mike Love is to oldsurferdude.

A good reason to dislike Davy is' The Day We Fall In Love' from More Of The Monkees, one of the worst songs ever.

I've never heard that one but if it's worse than "Someday Man" it must be bad!

My favourite Monkee tunes are
1) The Girl I Knew from Somewhere.
2) As We go Along.
3) Auntie's Municipal Court.
4) Randy Scouse Git.
5) Nine Times Blue.

I'm still unclear if "Shorty Blackwell" is a work of genius or one of the worst things I've ever heard in my life.

Here you go, don't say that you weren't warned! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4VS4Y7SIO4

[Mike's Beard]

That was hideous beyond words!!!!!!!

[bgas]

That was hideous beyond words!!!!!!!

You really think so? 
I thought it was laughably funny! Not something I'd want to put on repeat, but it would be good to share at a party when you need people to cut-up and roll on the floor...

[Mike's Beard]

That was hideous beyond words!!!!!!!

You really think so? 
I thought it was laughably funny! Not something I'd want to put on repeat, but it would be good to share at a party when you need people to cut-up and roll on the floor...

Or when you want them to go home! 

[bgas]

That was hideous beyond words!!!!!!!

You really think so? 
I thought it was laughably funny! Not something I'd want to put on repeat, but it would be good to share at a party when you need people to cut-up and roll on the floor...

Or when you want them to go home! 

Sure, you'd just have to play it louder, on REPEAT. 

[jeremylr]

One of the aggravating things about The Monkees are their three post Peter Tork albums, "Instant Replay,"  "The Monkees Present," & "Changes,"  released in 1969 & 1970.  The Monkees recorded so many great, unreleased songs from 1968--1969, that it continues to mystify as to why pre-1967 cuts made those albums.


Looking For The Good Times & Ladies Aid Society are two that spring to mind.  These songs were at least 3 years old when they were pulled from the can by their music supervisor, Brendan Cahill, & appeared on "Monkees Present."   Incidentally, Davy sings both, and they severely disrupt the album.  Critics likely had a field day with these songs, as they were recorded before the band had any creative control.

Instant Replay & Present deserve a listen.  Nesmith & Dolenz contribute brilliant songs, especially Nesmith's country-rock "Don't Wait For Me," "Listen To The Band," & the barroom shuffle of "Oklahoma Backroom Dancer."  Micky's songs are best on Present, including Bye, Bye, Baby, Bye Bye & Mommy & Daddy.  He wrote both, & he's exploring jazz territory, socially conscious heavy rock, & nursery rhymes on the same album.

You would have to be a completist to hear their final original album before the reunions, "Changes."  It's bubblegum soul & pop, produced & recorded in New York by Andy Kim & Jeff Barry.  99 Pounds & I Never Thought It Peculiar were the 3-year-old songs that made it, again both sung by Davy.

However, Davy wrote some good songs during '68 & '69 that remained unreleased for years, including "Time & Time Again" & "If You Have The Time," both cowritten with Bill Chadwick.  Good Davy songs at least.  If You Have The Time has an innovative Moog solo.


You can also start a discussion as to why Tork's Lady's Baby, Tear The Top Right Off My Head, & Come On In didn't make an album.  I've got a soft spot for Come On In especially.


Seems someone in the BB camp had these albums, as the boys grabbed onto the idea of releasing old (up to a decade) songs onto current albums.  "Good Time," Suzie Cincinatti, & When Girls Get Together spring to mind.  As a result, these blasts into the past are just that, confusing an often cohesive-sounding album.   I think the BB took it to the extreme though, releasing songs so old.

By the way, Andrew Sandoval wrote a great coffee-table Monkees book (The Monkees:  The Day-By-Day Story of the '60s TV Pop Sensation) a few years ago.  Includes complete sessions, all concert gigs, & long discussions with great photos.  There's even an index at the back of the book with each song, the recording date, & album it appeared on.  You can also go to each musician in alphabetical order & see each song where their contribution has been confirmed.  The BB & their fans have a template, if they would only  check it out.