Classic Rock Outtakes Industry:where do we go from here?

[PhilCohen]

For the Classic Rock outtakes industry, the release of the "Smile" box is analagous to the end of a fireworks display, where the operator shoots off a cluster of the most spectacular stuff he's got, to signal the end of the show. Then the question is (for the outtakes industry) where do we go from here? The Beach Boys have more unreleased songs, but they are from years when Brian Wilson wasn't participating much. There's concert recordings from all eras of the group's career, and the possibility of more deluxe editions of the 1960's catalogue albums.

By now, so many groups from the heyday of classic rock have partly or totally emptied their stashes of vault material. This leaves a bunch of artists that have, until now, rarely permitted the release of outtakes. These performers adamantly oppose the release of outtakes, but I expect that most of them will soon capitulate. But we may find that the quality or quantity of some of those artists' outtakes gave those particular artists genuine reasons to be reluctant.

[bgas]

For the Classic Rock outtakes industry, the release of the "Smile" box is analagous to the end of a fireworks display, where the operator shoots off a cluster of the most spectacular stuff he's got, to signal the end of the show. Then the question is (for the outtakes industry) where do we go from here? The Beach Boys have more unreleased songs, but they are from years when Brian Wilson wasn't participating much. There's concert recordings from all eras of the group's career, and the possibility of more deluxe editions of the 1960's catalogue albums.

By now, so many groups from the heyday of classic rock have partly or totally emptied their stashes of vault material. This leaves a bunch of artists that have, until now, rarely permitted the release of outtakes. These performers adamantly oppose the release of outtakes, but I expect that most of them will soon capitulate. But we may find that the quality or quantity of some of those artists' outtakes gave those particular artists genuine reasons to be reluctant.

I tell you , tho, there's plenty on this list form when Brian was perspiring:         http://www.esquarterly.com/bellagio/vaults.html

[Andrew G. Doe]

For the Classic Rock outtakes industry, the release of the "Smile" box is analagous to the end of a fireworks display, where the operator shoots off a cluster of the most spectacular stuff he's got, to signal the end of the show. Then the question is (for the outtakes industry) where do we go from here? The Beach Boys have more unreleased songs, but they are from years when Brian Wilson wasn't participating much. There's concert recordings from all eras of the group's career, and the possibility of more deluxe editions of the 1960's catalogue albums.

By now, so many groups from the heyday of classic rock have partly or totally emptied their stashes of vault material. This leaves a bunch of artists that have, until now, rarely permitted the release of outtakes. These performers adamantly oppose the release of outtakes, but I expect that most of them will soon capitulate. But we may find that the quality or quantity of some of those artists' outtakes gave those particular artists genuine reasons to be reluctant.

The upcoming Queen reissues have raided the vaults, and I gather the Floyd are contemplating an archive project. That aside, I'm thinking the remaining legendary tracks are the 24-minute "Helter Skelter" (yawn...) and Macca's "Carnival of Light", which I'm most reliably informed is absolute bollocks. Oh, and maybe before he dies, Dave Clark will authorise the DVD/BluRay release of the RSG ! material he owns.

[GuyOnTheBeach]

The upcoming Queen reissues have raided the vaults, and I gather the Floyd are contemplating an archive project. That aside, I'm thinking the remaining legendary tracks are the 24-minute "Helter Skelter" (yawn...) and Macca's "Carnival of Light", which I'm most reliably informed is absolute bollocks. Oh, and maybe before he dies, Dave Clark will authorise the DVD/BluRay release of the RGS material he owns.

Solo and with Wings, Macca has some outstanding unreleased material, and the usual insipid crap. The Beatles were one of the bands where I think 99% of their unreleased material was left that way for a very good reason (Mary Jane, the Get Back sessions.. which despite being this legendary source of unreleased material, is closer to a load of fragmented recordings by a band who were falling apart), I'd go so far as to say they had one unreleased song that should have been released, and that was Not Guilty (George's solo version drags a little), even though it did turn out that the version which is now available was a basta ... combination of different tapes courtesy of George Martin.. that's something else I never liked but I'll save that for a more appropriate thread.

[guitarfool2002]

I disagree with the original statement that artists have "partly or totally emptied their stashes of vault material". What is the basis in fact of such a sweeping statement? A few box sets here and there does not equal emptying the vaults. And letting false starts, control-booth announcements, and rejected mixes where one background vocal or guitar line is left off the mix trickle down one or two at a time onto various "reissues" and the like suggests a bit of laziness, or as was suggested a reluctance to let the proverbial cat out of the bag by releasing tapes that certain band members may not want to let out for personal reasons. But that doesn't mean they are at the end of the rope with the supply of material.

Sea Of Tunes, the Beach Boys bootleg series, was what it was - but one thing it *did* do quite well is illustrate how much material exists across the board for a multitude of vault/outtake releases for years to come. Take roughly 7 years of one pop band's output, minus some missing segments, and it fills well over 20 volumes, several dozen single discs! That's a goldmine of sorts - and consider that similar vaults exist from bands who have been making music 3 or 4 times as many years as the Sea Of Tunes covered in the Beach Boys' career.

The surface is starting to be scratched but in no way do I think the outtake industry is at a point of showing all their cards with Smile being released.

The problem as I see it is we fans of The Beach Boys, Brian Wilson, and in particular Smile, live in a sort of bubble, or a microcosm of everything else that may be happening with other bands and styles. If we say the upcoming Smile project is the epitome of vault releases, that may be true for a lot of fans like myself who feel that Smile is the epitome of the Beach Boys and Brian's vault release, but again why translate that into suggesting there is a similar situation across the music industry?

I keep hope alive that all of those larger collections of material which the various outtakes and rough mixes were taken from for previous single-disc releases will be raided soon enough, especially as demand continues to increase for some bands and fans tire of buying the same songs as "newly remasters" collections.

A few examples? How much of the KISS outtake/studio material has been released officially? I'm not a fan at all but for those rabid fans out there, how would hearing some studio rehearsals play in that market? I imagine it would sell. How about all the Nirvana studio run-throughs for Nevermind, where they basically let the tape roll as Cobain messed around on the guitar between takes? Fans would go crazy for more of that, if the legal and personal issues around Courtney and Grohl/Novoselic could be hashed out. Same with Phil Spector - those amazing studio reels which are in average quality and have been trading for years - those would be huge among a certain fan base if more complete and improved-quality releases could be prepared.

It's far from over.

[PhilCohen]

I am refering to reasonably finished outtakes with vocals, not rejected backing track attempts.

[guitarfool2002]

I am refering to reasonably finished outtakes with vocals, not rejected backing track attempts.

I'm not referring to rejected backing track attempts either. It would also depend on whether or not the singer in any given case recorded a scratch vocal track and whether that was saved on a reference mix or wiped later. Case-by-case.

Reasonably finished outtakes with vocals: Plenty of those would seem to exist as well. The availability of cheap and somewhat stable media from cassettes to CDR's to mp3's created a situation where every time a band went into a studio to work on a track, they were able to leave with multiple copies of that day's work to listen and evaluate at home. Name any band from the past 40 years or so and there is a 99% possibility that this kind of thing exists even outside the vaults, depending of course on what was saved and what was scrapped by the individuals. And we haven't even touched the issue of the recording engineers having copies of their own, officially or unofficially.

[PhilCohen]

I am a fan/collector of many artists from the 1960's & 1970's, but for every Springsteen, Neil Young, Rolling Stones, Hendrix or Dylan, who have a bottomless well of releasable outtakes, there are many other artists who are now a spent force as far as (reasonably finished) studio outtakes are concerned, such as The Who, Paul Revere & The Raiders, Jefferson Airplane, The Doors, The Monkees, ELO, ELP, Deep Purple, ABBA, Yes, Jethro Tull, Sweet, Uriah Heep, Genesis, The Move, Dusty Springfield, Creedence Clearwater Revival, Led Zeppelin, Blondie, Simon and Garfunkel, Syd Barrett & The Moody Blues......and most of EMI's British Invasion artists(other than The Beatles)

[JohnMill]

For the Classic Rock outtakes industry, the release of the "Smile" box is analagous to the end of a fireworks display, where the operator shoots off a cluster of the most spectacular stuff he's got, to signal the end of the show. Then the question is (for the outtakes industry) where do we go from here? The Beach Boys have more unreleased songs, but they are from years when Brian Wilson wasn't participating much. There's concert recordings from all eras of the group's career, and the possibility of more deluxe editions of the 1960's catalogue albums.

By now, so many groups from the heyday of classic rock have partly or totally emptied their stashes of vault material. This leaves a bunch of artists that have, until now, rarely permitted the release of outtakes. These performers adamantly oppose the release of outtakes, but I expect that most of them will soon capitulate. But we may find that the quality or quantity of some of those artists' outtakes gave those particular artists genuine reasons to be reluctant.

The upcoming Queen reissues have raided the vaults, and I gather the Floyd are contemplating an archive project. That aside, I'm thinking the remaining legendary tracks are the 24-minute "Helter Skelter" (yawn...) and Macca's "Carnival of Light", which I'm most reliably informed is absolute bollocks. Oh, and maybe before he dies, Dave Clark will authorise the DVD/BluRay release of the RSG ! material he owns.

Just put the entire contents of The Beatles recording sessions at EMI online and call it a day.  Charge people a monthly fee and let them download as much as they want at their convenience.  The real interest when it comes to The Beatles for most collectors anyhow are not the 27 minute "Helter Skelter" or "Carnival Of Light" (although both would be interesting to hear) but all the songs that we don't have alternate versions of yet.  There is almost nothing available on bootleg from "Rubber Soul" or "Revolver" and the "Sgt. Pepper" material on A2 was mostly created by George Martin after the fact.  Just give us the raw session tapes and go from there.

As for other acts, we all have our preferences but being a fan of seventies rock and roll, I'd love for either Bruce Springsteen or Tom Petty to open up their vaults a bit more.  Unfortunately Springsteen seems to like to re-record his outtakes making releases such as his recent "Promise" CD worthless from a collector's standpoint.  As for Tom Petty, I'd love to hear the original two disc version of "Wildflowers" that never came out.  

Edit: Back to The Beatles for a minute.  Personally one batch of sessions that I would love to see escape are the 1995 sessions for "Now And Then"/"All For Love".  There is apparently a rough backing track for "Now And Then" in the can although there has never been confirmation on any vocal work done on the song to my knowledge.  With the technology available today even if just the backing track escaped, internet bootleggers could probably make a good run at completing a "final version" of the song using the cleaned up Lennon demo and the Threetle backing.  "All For Love" is also quite tantalizing because we know so little of the track except that it's a McCartney/Harrison composition.  For years there was even some question as to whether or not it existed at all but a few years back I believe there was some confirmation from Peter Hodgson regarding the track which you can read about here:

http://abbeyrd.best.vwh.net/news/411allforlove.html

[guitarfool2002]

Is the issue the quality of said reasonably finished outtakes? As in the quality would have to be at a certain level for a release which would draw in casual fans as well as the more rabid?

I'm also zeroing in on one band from the list: Paul Revere and The Raiders. I'm not a rabid fan, in fact I know mostly the hits, but in my travels I came across a compilation of at least three discs of Raiders acetates which would fall in line very well with what we're discussing. Many are working mixes, or works-in-progress of some obscure and some well-known Raiders tracks. The quality as with many acetates is rough at times, which I could see a casual fan rejecting after a few seconds of hearing it. But they are "out there", again at least 3 discs' worth of this stuff.

Are these available commercially, or are these strictly black-market or grey-market collectors' compilations? As someone who is not a major Raiders fan, I'd think this would appeal to the more rabid fans but I don't know what is or isn't out there already.

[punkinhead]

While we're on what's left of the outtakes, how about we finally get a re-release of the Monkees Head on dvd with all the footage/outtakes I've heard about over the years....is that at all plausible?

[Chris Moise]

Macca's "Carnival of Light", which I'm most reliably informed is absolute bollocks.

Perhaps a minor point but I'm not sure it's fair to call it "Macca's Carnival of Light". It gets repeated over and over again that Carnival of Light is along the lines of Revolution 9 but this is simply incorrect. Carnival of Light has Ringo on drums, George on electric with John and Paul each on organ and shouting random phrases over the top. Obviously not another Hey Jude but I think it will be an interesting listen. The band thought enough of it to have the recording played in public on two occasions. I'm really keen to hear what George's guitar sounds like on the recording.

Barry Miles head Carnival of Light and said resembles a less rhythmic 'Return of the Son of Monster Magnet' but "more fragmented, abstract and serious." Hmmm...

[Dead Parrot]

The upcoming Queen reissues have raided the vaults, and I gather the Floyd are contemplating an archive project. That aside, I'm thinking the remaining legendary tracks are the 24-minute "Helter Skelter" (yawn...) and Macca's "Carnival of Light", which I'm most reliably informed is absolute bollocks. Oh, and maybe before he dies, Dave Clark will authorise the DVD/BluRay release of the RSG ! material he owns.

That said the 10 minute version of "Revolution 1" which surfaced quite recently is bloody great.

I'm still hoping for some kind of Pink Floyd out-take collection, which if Nick Mason is to be believed, might actually happen. And I think those connected with Pink Floyd missed a big oppotunity by not including "Vegetable Man", and "Scream Thy Last Scream" on the recent Syd Barrett best of, or the PATGOD reissue from a while back.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Macca's "Carnival of Light", which I'm most reliably informed is absolute bollocks.

Perhaps a minor point but I'm not sure it's fair to call it "Macca's Carnival of Light". It gets repeated over and over again that Carnival of Light is along the lines of Revolution 9 but this is simply incorrect. Carnival of Light has Ringo on drums, George on electric with John and Paul each on organ and shouting random phrases over the top. Obviously not another Hey Jude but I think it will be an interesting listen. The band thought enough of it to have the recording played in public on two occasions. I'm really keen to hear what George's guitar sounds like on the recording.

Barry Miles head Carnival of Light and said resembles a less rhythmic 'Return of the Son of Monster Magnet' but "more fragmented, abstract and serious." Hmmm...

Paul's idea, Paul's commission... and George was most vehement about not including it on Anthology 2, which I think is highly instructive.

[Chris Moise]

What is frustrating about the Beatles is their vault wasn't nearly as interesting as, let's say, Hendrix or Dylan but Anthology still managed to miss a couple dozen of the most interesting and listenable tracks. A few examples...

The unbooted early mono mix of Got To Get You Into My Life that pre-dates the brass overdubs, has George and John's fuzz guitar (wiped by later overdubs) and Paul's original vocal track. Far more interesting and listenable than 75% of what is on Anthology 2.

The unbooted first electric version of While My Guitar Gently Weeps. Completely different performance, backwards guitar, organ more to the fore, has lead vocals. The LP was a later re-make and thus totally different performance. More interesting than the alternate Don't Pass Me By for sure.

Early version of Nowhere Man with "elaborate" three-part harmony intro. LP version was a re-make.

Paul's World Without Love demo, mix of Girl with the unused fuzz guitar overdub, the Abbey Rd attempt at Fixing a Hole (LP version was rec at Regent), Fixing a Hole take 1 (considered best, has vocals).

[Chris Moise]

..and George was most vehement about not including it on Anthology 2, which I think is highly instructive.

Is it though? This is the same George that insisted the (sub-3 minute) Shout be edited and that a section of You Know My Name that is *on the released record* be edited out of it on Anthology.

[Chris Moise]

I'm still hoping for some kind of Pink Floyd out-take collection, which if Nick Mason is to be believed, might actually happen. And I think those connected with Pink Floyd missed a big opportunity by not including "Vegetable Man", and "Scream Thy Last Scream" on the recent Syd Barrett best of, or the PATGOD reissue from a while back.

I mentioned a couple tasty unbooted Piper outtakes to someone peripherally involved in selecting bonus material on the set and he said something like "if we knew that existed we probably would've put it out". When asked said individual said he hadn't read Random Precision so he wasn't familiar with the inventory of surviving tapes. A shame as that was probably our last chance at hearing this stuff. It isn't like there will be another Piper reissue.

[rogerlancelot]

While we're on what's left of the outtakes, how about we finally get a re-release of the Monkees Head on dvd with all the footage/outtakes I've heard about over the years....is that at all plausible?

What footage/outtakes? Do any really exist? Anybody know anything about this?

[punkinhead]

I remember there being a couple of Beatles' "stack-o-tracks" boots but they were highly expensive when I saw them so long ago. The tracks that were released on Anthology 2 (Elenor Rigby is all I can remember at the moment) just weren't enough....Am I the only one here who wants more of the backing tracks?

Capitol loves releasing those for the BB, why not the Beatles?

[Andrew G. Doe]

I'm still hoping for some kind of Pink Floyd out-take collection, which if Nick Mason is to be believed, might actually happen. And I think those connected with Pink Floyd missed a big opportunity by not including "Vegetable Man", and "Scream Thy Last Scream" on the recent Syd Barrett best of, or the PATGOD reissue from a while back.

I mentioned a couple tasty unbooted Piper outtakes to someone peripherally involved in selecting bonus material on the set and he said something like "if we knew that existed we probably would've put it out". When asked said individual said he hadn't read Random Precision so he wasn't familiar with the inventory of surviving tapes. A shame as that was probably our last chance at hearing this stuff. It isn't like there will be another Piper reissue.

Huh ?  You're saying the people in charge of a major reissue admit they didn't do their job anything like properly ?  Not sure I buy that - you don't have to be a Floyd geek to know about "Vegetable Man" or "Scream". Whatever shortcomings Abbey road may have had, its filing system wasn't one of them.


The rest of the band blocked the release of "VM" at least once before. Just sayin'.

[PhilCohen]

The upcoming Queen reissues have raided the vaults, and I gather the Floyd are contemplating an archive project. That aside, I'm thinking the remaining legendary tracks are the 24-minute "Helter Skelter" (yawn...) and Macca's "Carnival of Light", which I'm most reliably informed is absolute bollocks. Oh, and maybe before he dies, Dave Clark will authorise the DVD/BluRay release of the RSG ! material he owns.

That said the 10 minute version of "Revolution 1" which surfaced quite recently is bloody great.

I'm still hoping for some kind of Pink Floyd out-take collection, which if Nick Mason is to be believed, might actually happen. And I think those connected with Pink Floyd missed a big oppotunity by not including "Vegetable Man", and "Scream Thy Last Scream" on the recent Syd Barrett best of, or the PATGOD reissue from a while back.

Because those two songs are actually from sessions for the group's 2nd album.

[JohnMill]

What is frustrating about the Beatles is their vault wasn't nearly as interesting as, let's say, Hendrix or Dylan but Anthology still managed to miss a couple dozen of the most interesting and listenable tracks.

I think it's pretty subjective as to what is interesting and what isn't.  I have a healthy trove of Dylan material and to me a lot of it sounds very much the same.  There are some gems in there to be certain but a lot of it to me is neither here nor there.  I will give him this though, as far as completed unreleased songs his catalog was worlds ahead of The Beatles who as it's been mentioned generally released their best material.

Personally speaking I'm always hungry for new Beatles material.  A few weeks back I finally heard the "non-looped" version of "Besame Mucho" from 6-6-62 and although we are talking about maybe ten seconds difference it was a nice surprise hearing a different ending than the one I've grown accustomed to hearing for years now.  Paul McCartney's "Unforgettable" has also recently surfaced and while not anything near a revelation it's still nice to have a recording that we've known about for years but never heard.

Someone above mentioned The Beatles solo output.  It amazes me that Paul McCartney still doesn't have a boxset out chronicling his solo career.  I remember him saying several years ago that he lost interest in his archival release ("Cold Cuts") once the stuff started getting booted.  Now that so much of McCartney's solo catalog has been booted would it be a stretch to say that he feels that "since it's out there anyway, there is no point in him releasing it officially"?

[Andrew G. Doe]

The upcoming Queen reissues have raided the vaults, and I gather the Floyd are contemplating an archive project. That aside, I'm thinking the remaining legendary tracks are the 24-minute "Helter Skelter" (yawn...) and Macca's "Carnival of Light", which I'm most reliably informed is absolute bollocks. Oh, and maybe before he dies, Dave Clark will authorise the DVD/BluRay release of the RSG ! material he owns.

That said the 10 minute version of "Revolution 1" which surfaced quite recently is bloody great.

I'm still hoping for some kind of Pink Floyd out-take collection, which if Nick Mason is to be believed, might actually happen. And I think those connected with Pink Floyd missed a big oppotunity by not including "Vegetable Man", and "Scream Thy Last Scream" on the recent Syd Barrett best of, or the PATGOD reissue from a while back.

Because those two songs are actually from sessions for the group's 2nd album.

Unreleased post-"Emily" single, actually.

[guitarfool2002]

While we're on what's left of the outtakes, how about we finally get a re-release of the Monkees Head on dvd with all the footage/outtakes I've heard about over the years....is that at all plausible?

What footage/outtakes? Do any really exist? Anybody know anything about this?

Still photos exist of several scenes which were cut, including one with Peter dressed as a sad clown character. With Rhino being Rhino, apart from the photos I'd like to think they'd put something out like the actual film of those scenes if they could, but I'm just a fan.

I'd actually like to hear some of the tapes they recorded in Ojai where they basically smoked a lot of potent weed and wrote the story on audio tape with Jack Nicholson. If those still exist, that is.

[JohnMill]

I remember there being a couple of Beatles' "stack-o-tracks" boots but they were highly expensive when I saw them so long ago. The tracks that were released on Anthology 2 (Elenor Rigby is all I can remember at the moment) just weren't enough....Am I the only one here who wants more of the backing tracks?

Capitol loves releasing those for the BB, why not the Beatles?

There was a "Stack O' Vocals" mix prepared of "Paperback Writer" for A2 but it was vetoed.