Lowest point in the BB career?

[Jonathan Blum]

It's worth remembering that power in a group situation often has little to do with skill or accomplishment, and much to do with force of personality.  If you've got plenty of self-confidence and forcefulness, and the other people in your group can have their self-confidence more easily damaged, then sure, one guy can out-disrespect all the others.

And it sure sounds like all the Wilsons at the very least were in that boat to one degree or another.  Even Dennis veered between extremes of self-confidence and self-doubt.  And yes, there's a tendency on all their parts to withdraw in one way or another rather than stand and fight.

It's just a classic dysfunctional-family situation, really.

Cheers,
Jon Blum

[KokoMoses]

A couple pages up there was a quote refrenced: " If only Mike didn't take himself so seriously"

That might be true, but perhaps we're taking HIM too seriously. Mike's never set out to be Dylan. So, he loves silly fluffy "fun" songs about summertime or the beach. Big deal? And if he's trying to make money? Big deal! What rock star can you stand behind100% who's NOT trying to make money? Or at least make a living.

Someone mentioned how Mike is like Johnny Ramone. Very astute! Hits the nail on the head in so many ways. I don't see how if Mike is so concerned with having hits, repeating some magical formula, how it should completely negate him of any artistry, creativity, or talent. It's soooooooo mean to sit here and analyze every move/word/act/deed of Mike's like we all have psych degrees and try to chip away at any bit of self respect or ego the guy might have left. Why do we have to find excuses for how he was somehow "permitted" to be a part of such an amazing musical legacy? Why do we pick away at every fiber of the guy's personality and make-up when we warmly embrace guys like Gary Usher who wandered to the Wilson house from down the street, or Tony Asher, and advertizing guy for God's sake!, and laud their words as droppings from heaven. Why is it such a freakish thing that Mike and Brian, two first cousins with a lot of history, would have a chemistry for writing songs together? Why treat Brian as a God and Mike as trash? Do we worship Keith Richards as a God and slam Mick because he merely wrote some great lyrics to some classic songs? Or the other way around?

If I was Mike I would have an attitude the size of Mars. I don't see why he should give a damm, at this point, about anything other than making himself happy, playing shows and making money. Honestly. He's been fodaed since 1967 and couldn't redeem himself in the "fans" eyes no matter what he did.

[KokoMoses]

I gonna go right out and get myself in big trouble here and say it:

It SUCKS that Brian quite the touring band and created a giant crack in the band's varnish that was never healed. It was a selfish thing to do really. Selfish and weak in a lot of ways. Then he sat back and let the guys tour relentlessly and make cash while he didn't do much of anything. I'm not saying he didn't have his reasons. And I respect them. But looking at the big picture. Yeah, it sucked in a massive way. Since then it was pretty much slam after slam after slam in the other guy's faces. Why do we have to bash the other guys for wanting to continue as the Beach Boys and do it? Didn't they just want to function as a band and be exactly that? Just like pretty much everyone else in history who was ever in a band? Who can blame them?


If the Brian and The Beach Boys had stuck together like a real band. A band like The Stones/REM/The Beatles even, we probably wouldn't be sitting here blaming Mike love for everything. The whole thing just sucks. Sure, they did become a true band again, but by then it was too late and the well had been poisioned by too many interlopers. It's sad.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Was Brian there, could he have done more, should Al or Carl have contributed, etc.? Maybe. But I can't blame them for an absence. Sometimes nothing is better than something, and those albums are such times.

We'll just have to respectfully disagree, Luther. I do think, yes, Brian could have done more. I do think, yes, Al and Carl should've contributed more. I can blame and do blame them for their absence. Yes, sometimes nothing is better than something (GIOMH for example), but not in this case. Those BB albums in question needed more. It's one thing to blame someone, it's another thing to single them out unfairly. But, hey, no problem; look forward to your posts....

Alan was excluded from the band for the majority of the SIP sessions, so it would have been a tad difficult for him to contribute material.

[Andrew G. Doe]

[quote author=Sheriff John Stone link=topic=5795.msg93186#msg93186
4) You say that Mike wasn't succeeding? "Getcha Back"? "Wipe Out"? "Kokomo"? "Somewhere In Japan"? Not successful? You don't have to LIKE them, but they were successful. And, I'm sorry to repeat myself, but I didn't find Mike's SIP songs THAT bad.
[/quote]

One, "Somewhere Near Japan" was written almost entirely by John Phillips (as was "Kokomo")... and two, as a single, it tanked. Never charted. As it happens, I consider it the last halfway decent song the band did, but Mike had little to do with its genesis.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Why did Mike have the power (or whatever the appropriate word is) to single-handedly veto/reject songs from Beach Boys albums? Why didn't the other guys (including Al, if you think he was into "art") disrepsect him, out vote him, shut him down, shut him up, or crush him like a grape. Instead, according to many on this board (and I'm not putting words in their mouths), Mike prevented the other Beach Boys' songs from getting on the albums. And please don't respond that they didn't feel like fighting him and it was easier to give in....

Simple - he had the voting power. back in the 70s and 80s, he & Alan formed a voting block. Brian either abstained or gave his vote to Mike (I have no idea why), which left Carl and Dennis, or most frequently, just Carl. Simple politics. After Dennis passed on, even simpler, as his estate sold his vote and shares back to BRI.

[Andrew G. Doe]

One very important of Mike's character to consider - when he was quite young, 18, 19, he was thrown out of his comfortable family home and forced to fend for himself and his new family (one purely incidental spinoff: The Beach Boys), then a few years later his family's business failed. Don't know about you, but that would make me concentrate on the commercial rather than the artistic more than a little. To have had money and then lost it suddenly is hugely traumatic.

[KokoMoses]

One very important of Mike's character to consider - when he was quite young, 18, 19, he was thrown out of his comfortable family home and forced to fend for himself and his new family (one purely incidental spinoff: The Beach Boys), then a few years later his family's business failed. Don't know about you, but that would make me concentrate on the commercial rather than the artistic more than a little. To have had money and then lost it suddenly is hugely traumatic.

very good point!

[MBE]

Why did Mike have so much control later on? First of all Brian effectively stopped having final say when Surf's Up was used against his wishes back in 1971. Sure he cooperated but after that his role in the group's decision making lessened considerably. Carl and Dennis' positions were compromised once Jack was fired and Stephen Love hired. This worsened once Ricky and Blondie left. Murry's death also took some the drive out of all of the Wilson brothers. Once all this occurred Mike got his way more often, and Endless Summer strengthened his already strong desire to return to the oldies.

By 1976 Carl and Dennis were dabbling in hard drugs and Al felt more comfortable on Mike's side regardless of his own artistic desires. The back and forth over the next seven years is well documented. Fast forward to 1984 Dennis is gone, Bruce is back, Landy is making Brian's decisions for him, and the Beach Boys haven't recorded regularly in five years. They cut an album and Mike contributes its most successful and debatabley most memorable moment. Steve Levine is someone no one wants to work with again, Brian's now being further pulled away, and Terry Melcher is the Beach Boys new "recording caption". Carl seemingly no longer has the desire to write for the group. Because they can't land a long term record deal, they do a bunch of one offs. among which was Kokomo. That was the ace in hole they needed, so they do a half baked album in 1989 of which nobody (even Mike if you read the Goldmine interview) seems to take a great deal of pride in and it bombs taking along their chance to be major recording artists with it.

The one off recordings continue with no fanfare and litigation over Landy begins. As the sessions for SIP commence, the group is in total disarray. Brian is now completely being kept from participating. Al and Mike fall out, and Jardine only comes back towards the end of the session, Bruce hasn't been prolific for years, and Carl just doesn't seem to care much. Mike is left in charge because he is the only one really giving a darn about making a record at that point. Brian and Al seem not to have the opportunity to contribute, so that leaves, Mike, Bruce, and Carl at fault for the results. Carl should have pushed more, and I doubt Mike would have prevented him from recording, He is at fault for going along passively. Bruce seemed to have given up any artistic pretensions and also seems to have just let Mike go ahead with his plans and must share that part of the blame with Carl. Mike should have encouraged more group work, and not sought to redo the 15 Big Ones formula. That is his fault, and the album is his baby. He also takes fault for not writing any decent material. Getcha Back and Rock and Roll To The Rescue were OK but Mike hadn't really been consistent for over a decade. He did rely too much on nostalgia, trends, and yes Kokomo styled production.

The Beach Boys had one last chance in 1994-95 and they blew it by doing a lame country tribute to themselves. It all came to a sad end and they were all at fault. That my friends was the low point.

[Jay]

I think it's impossible to pick a specific low point. There are just to many, and it depends on the fan. Releasing a live album(their first one, specificly) filled with dumb covers (Monster Mash, Long Tall Texan, Pappa Ooo Mow Mow) instead of their great original songs(no Don't Worry Baby???) was a low point. To the hardcore surf fans, Pet Sounds was a low point. For the people that actually understood Pet Sounds and Good Vibrations, Smiley Smile was practically a slap in the face. I could go on and on. My point is, virtually every Beach Boys album/era was a low point to SOMEBODY.

[KokoMoses]

I think it's impossible to pick a specific low point. There are just to many, and it depends on the fan. Releasing a live album(their first one, specificly) filled with dumb covers (Monster Mash, Long Tall Texan, Pappa Ooo Mow Mow) instead of their great original songs(no Don't Worry Baby???) was a low point. To the hardcore surf fans, Pet Sounds was a low point. For the people that actually understood Pet Sounds and Good Vibrations, Smiley Smile was practically a slap in the face. I could go on and on. My point is, virtually every Beach Boys album/era was a low point to SOMEBODY.

Pure genius! This is MUSIC/ART we're talking about. To many Warhol was a genius, others a no-talent opportunist. Music is no different. It's all subjective and everyone's opinion is right.

[Jay]

Why did Mike have so much control later on? First of all Brian effectively stopped having final say when Surf's Up was used against his wishes back in 1971. Sure he cooperated but after that his role in the group's decision making lessened considerably. Carl and Dennis' positions were compromised once Jack was fired and Stephen Love hired. This worsened once Ricky and Blondie left. Murry's death also took some the drive out of all of the Wilson brothers. Once all this occurred Mike got his way more often, and Endless Summer strengthened his already strong desire to return to the oldies.

By 1976 Carl and Dennis were dabbling in hard drugs and Al felt more comfortable on Mike's side regardless of his own artistic desires. The back and forth over the next seven years is well documented. Fast forward to 1984 Dennis is gone, Bruce is back, Landy is making Brian's decisions for him, and the Beach Boys haven't recorded regularly in five years. They cut an album and Mike contributes its most successful and debatabley most memorable moment. Steve Levine is someone no one wants to work with again,  Brian's now being further pulled away, and Terry Melcher is the Beach Boys new "recording caption". Carl seemingly no longer has the desire to write for the group. Because they can't land a long term record deal, they do a bunch of one offs. among which was Kokomo. That was the ace in hole they needed, so they do a half baked album in 1989 of which nobody (even Mike if you read the Goldmine interview) seems to take a great deal of pride in and it bombs taking along their chance to be major recording artists with it.

The one off recordings continue with no fanfare and litigation over Landy begins. As the sessions for SIP commence,  the group is in total disarray. Brian is now completely being kept from participating . Al and Mike fall out and Jardine only comes back towards the end of the session, Bruce hasn't been prolific for years, and Carl just doesn't seem to care much. Mike is left in charge because he is the only one really giving a darn about making a record at that point. Brian and Al seem not to have the opportunity to contribute, so that leaves, Mike, Bruce, and Carl at fault for the results. Carl should have pushed more, and I doubt Mike would have prevented him from recording, He is at fault for going along passively. Bruce seemed to have given up any artistic pretensions and also seems to have just let Mike go ahead with his plans and must share that part of the blame with Carl.  Mike should have encouraged more group work, and not sought to redo the 15 Big Ones formula. That is his fault, and the album is his baby. He also takes fault for not writing any decent material. Getcha Back and Rock and Roll To The Rescue were OK but Mike hadn't really been consistent for over a decade. He  did rely too much on nostalgia, trends, and yes Kokomo styled production.

The Beach Boys had one last chance in 1994-95 and they blew it by doing a lame country tribute to themselves.  It all came to a sad end and they were all at fault. That my friends was the low point.

Great post! While I was reading it, I had a thought. Do you(by "you", I mean just anybody who happens to read this) think that in regard to everything stated in the above post, and with the financial issues Andrew pointed out, that Mike's infamous speech at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame might have been his misguided attempt at a pep talk? I mean, maybe he realised that nobody but himself actually cared by this point? Sure, he insulted everybody and their brother, but Mike ended his speech with something along the lines of "...and we're going to do it for world peace, and harmony!". If you watch it closely, Mike seems to have a fire in his eye as he says it. Perhaps we all sometimes take Mike for granted?

[MBE]

I think Mike was tactless, but he was trying to point out the soulessnes of the music industry. He was offended that people like Diana Ross and Paul McCartney didn't show for political reason's Perhaps he was trying to say it didn't have to be that way, but I don't think it was aimed at the other Beach Boys exactly. He was on a fast and not thinking normally, it's hard to know what he would have done had he been in a different place. It's not his finest hour but it was genuine which most of these occasions aren't.

As far as taking him for granted, yes we do but that doesn't mean I like many of his post 1973 creative decisions. He has had a handful of great moments that show his full potential since then, but like the rest of the Beach Boys was never as consistent as he had been previously. The big mistake is to deny how great he and the others all were before that point. Each and every Beach Boys played a part in their creative and commercial success, but each is also to blame for their failures or decline.

[KokoMoses]

Ok, because we've been talking about the Summer In Paradise album so much, I went and listened to the title track and have to admit, it's a pretty damm good little song! The eco-lyrics certainly aren't "cynical" but then again, anything can seem cynical if you're looking at it with a cynical mindset. For 1992, I don't see anything at all wrong with this track. The production doesn't even sound all that dated.

[KokoMoses]

I also listened to Still Cruisin and tried to hate it, but I dunno.... the beat is nice, the chorus is catchy, and Carl's vocal parts are, dare I say, killer! Other than being at it's (gasp) heart silly, I honestly can't see what the big deal about this stuff is? Like Mike or not, you have to admit, he has a THING he does, and he does it well. His voice is unique and if he didn't dress so bad, you might actually be able to call him cool.

I just can't, for the life or me, hate this stuff.

[KokoMoses]

and Adam, I'm totally with you on a song like "Cool Head Warm Heart" ..... It's night and day when Mike writes about something he really cares about rather than what he thinks Beach Boy "fans" wanna hear and will make into a hit. Even though I'm not offended by that stuff.

[carl r]

I think it's impossible to pick a specific low point. There are just to many, and it depends on the fan. Releasing a live album(their first one, specificly) filled with dumb covers (Monster Mash, Long Tall Texan, Pappa Ooo Mow Mow) instead of their great original songs(no Don't Worry Baby???) was a low point. To the hardcore surf fans, Pet Sounds was a low point. For the people that actually understood Pet Sounds and Good Vibrations, Smiley Smile was practically a slap in the face. I could go on and on. My point is, virtually every Beach Boys album/era was a low point to SOMEBODY.

I would say that the 1st live album was an aberration during a prolific period. But let's turn it the other way round. For many people, Pet Sounds was a high point. The only BB album they collected. The period following Smile's abandonment was difficult, however just 3 years later, and a few steadily improving albums behind them, Sunflower is seen by some people as a high point, and the late 60s collected output can also be seen in its entirety as a high point. The early 70s marked a different stage, and for me personally many of the high points in this sprawling back catalogue can be found at this time.

Other than "Love You" there were not so many high points in the late 70s, but there were some good tracks around.

But who can honestly say that the late 80s early 90s BB output was a high point?

So I don't buy the basic argument. There is a basic quality or not within art, and it's not just subjective in a crude way - however you slice it, some albums really do stink, for real.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Was Brian there, could he have done more, should Al or Carl have contributed, etc.? Maybe. But I can't blame them for an absence. Sometimes nothing is better than something, and those albums are such times.

We'll just have to respectfully disagree, Luther. I do think, yes, Brian could have done more. I do think, yes, Al and Carl should've contributed more. I can blame and do blame them for their absence. Yes, sometimes nothing is better than something (GIOMH for example), but not in this case. Those BB albums in question needed more. It's one thing to blame someone, it's another thing to single them out unfairly. But, hey, no problem; look forward to your posts....

Alan was excluded from the band for the majority of the SIP sessions, so it would have been a tad difficult for him to contribute material.

Difficult, but not impossible. How many days was Al present? How long does it take to present a tape (or whatever you present), and say, "Here's a song I wrote which I think is pretty good. Would you give it a listen?". There, that took ten seconds...

[KokoMoses]

I think we was actually banned from the band at this point for having attitude problems, or something to that effect.

[Sheriff John Stone]

[quote author=Sheriff John Stone link=topic=5795.msg93186#msg93186
4) You say that Mike wasn't succeeding? "Getcha Back"? "Wipe Out"? "Kokomo"? "Somewhere In Japan"? Not successful? You don't have to LIKE them, but they were successful. And, I'm sorry to repeat myself, but I didn't find Mike's SIP songs THAT bad.

One, "Somewhere Near Japan" was written almost entirely by John Phillips (as was "Kokomo")... and two, as a single, it tanked. Never charted. As it happens, I consider it the last halfway decent song the band did, but Mike had little to do with its genesis.
[/quote]

Mike's name is on the credits, and, based on Mike's record as being proven (in a court of law) to be honest in his songwriting claims, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, and at least some credit. Is he at least partially responsible for bringing the track to the group's attention? I'll give him credit for that also.

I'm aware that "Somewhere In Japan" didn't chart. But after being scolded for equating some (but not all) degree of success with sales, I included "Somewhere In Japan" as being successful, based on what I heard, rather than its chart performance. Jeez, I can't win no matter which way I go....

 

[MBE]

Was Brian there, could he have done more, should Al or Carl have contributed, etc.? Maybe. But I can't blame them for an absence. Sometimes nothing is better than something, and those albums are such times.

We'll just have to respectfully disagree, Luther. I do think, yes, Brian could have done more. I do think, yes, Al and Carl should've contributed more. I can blame and do blame them for their absence. Yes, sometimes nothing is better than something (GIOMH for example), but not in this case. Those BB albums in question needed more. It's one thing to blame someone, it's another thing to single them out unfairly. But, hey, no problem; look forward to your posts....

Alan was excluded from the band for the majority of the SIP sessions, so it would have been a tad difficult for him to contribute material.

Difficult, but not impossible. How many days was Al present? How long does it take to present a tape (or whatever you present), and say, "Here's a song I wrote which I think is pretty good. Would you give it a listen?". There, that took ten seconds...

In the Beach Boys first decade this is a very feasable scenerio, but by 1992 relations were too strained for that easy give and take. I have a feeling Al was lucky (if you want to call it that) to be on the album at all.

[KokoMoses]

I'm aware that "Somewhere In Japan" didn't chart. But after being scolded for equating some (but not all) degree of success with sales, I included "Somewhere In Japan" as being successful, based on what I heard, rather than its chart performance. Jeez, I can't win no matter which way I go....

 




[/quote]


Hating Mike is like a religion: based on a sliver of fact and a whole lot of mythology. What are you gonna do, argue someone out of their religious faith? It aint gonna work.

Just remember...... "It's a Love-thing"

[Dancing Bear]

As I mentioned, Carl was follwing a muse that nothing to do with or even could share a place in Mike's vision of the BB during that timeframe.

Mike's and Carl's material in the early 90s share the distinction of being songs that I wouldn't listen twice or even once if they weren't written by a Beach Boy. That's a lot in common. 

[Dancing Bear]

Adam, why do you think Carl dried up as an interesting songwriter after Long Promised Road / Feel Flows / Trader / Angel Come Home?

Hmm.  Good question.  Well, I think there are a couple of possible factors.

One's not so obvious...when I worked out those songs for the LONG PROMISED ROAD album, I noticed how odd the chord structures were.  They're the kind of songs you write when you're not a very schooled keyboard player but you're really searching for the sounds and interesting chord shapes.  Carl would have this weird chords with 2s and 6s and 3rds in the bass.  It made it sound like there was never any home key, and combined with the particular layered production style he favored in the early '70s gave everything an otherworldly quality.

Now you get into the later stuff, it's much more traditional, and may I say guitar-oriented.  Carl's not really stretching out on an unfamiliar instrument, although "Heaven" has some weird chords, some of those same kind of chord structures.  The difference with "Heaven" though is whereas on keyboards and with that particular type of song structure, it sounds like you're in outer space, with acoustic guitar and a more generic production style, it feels like you're just idling and not really going anywhere, which songs with lots of sixth chords in them tend to be like ("Babe" by Styx leaps to mind).  (I know a lot of people love "Heaven" so I don't mean to bum anybody's trip...but imagine it being done on SURF'S UP on a Wurlitzer electric piano and that might convey what I'm talking about)

Another thing is that ever notice that "Feel Flows" and "Long Promised Road" are the same song?  Same chord progression, just a different production and melody.

So my personal theory is a lot of what made Carl interesting wasn't what he wrote, but how he produced it.  He didn't really start writing prolifically until the late '70s, after what most of us think of as his peak.  Once you take the guy out of the studio he owns and put him in Caribou Ranch, or with Steve Levine or whatever, he's much less likely to say "I would produce it this way" than go with the flow of people who have more experience.  Plus by the '80s Carl wanted a hit as much as everybody else did.  And so you get a much less interesting interpretation of the songs he came up with.

Another factor is from what I'm told Carl by 1980 was into country music and hard rock, basically.  And I mean new country, 1980 country, not Johnny Cash or Merle Haggard.  So his tastes were reflected in what he wrote, and I think a lot of us would feel that that wasn't as interesting as what he was probably listening to 10 years before.

That said, a lot of my favorite Carl stuff is from later years.  "Keepin' The Summer Alive" and "Maybe I Don't Know" were fascinating...he actually forced the Beach Boys to try to be an '80s AOR band, and just about pulled it off.  And "Where I Belong" is gorgeous.  I like some of the Beckley-Lamm-Wilson stuff too.  But I get your point.

Great post, I see what you mean about production vs. songwriting. Btw, "interesting" is too harsh, maybe "songs I wish I had written" is a warmer way of expressing it. I like some of his stuff in KtSA and BB85.

[mikeyj]

The one problem with the tune

Another problem for me is Mike's voice. I too don't really mind Getcha Back as a song, but I just wish Mike had done a better job of the vocal.