The Smiley Smile Message Board

Can't remember seeing a thread on this subject recently, and I only just learned about it myself: the (abandoned) plan to have Sean O'Hagan of the High Llamas "oversee" a Beach Boys album with Brian(!?!).

Good article about it here, written by "DJ M" (most likely a Smiley Smiler I'd bet):

http://uncanny1.blogspot.com/2005/05/brian-wilsonandy-paleysean-ohagan.html

Would love to know more.

That's about it.

The Sean O'Hagan thing never got beyond talk.

The Don Was sessions happened, but Carl scotched the project. He didn't believe in the material.

Always really blew my mind how Carl didn't believe in the material during the Was sessions, yet he was ok with the god-awful SIP tunes???? Carl kind of f***ed Brian over.

I remember when that article appeared in Uncut in the summer of 1998, it was really exciting to read as I thought 'Cool, maybe there's a good album in here somewhere' but then it went on to explain about Imagination and all that. I was a big Llamas fan at the time too so it was extra disappointing. I did manage to obtain the Paley stuff a couple of years later and they were very wrong not to have released it IMO.

Agree on the Paley stuff. Sometimes it's unfairly dismissed. A wonderful 'last BBs album' was lurking in there somewhere.

Reads like a lot of authorial input to that article...

I remember reading an interview with Bruce Johnston where he expressed an interest in a Beach Boys - High Llamas collaboration. I think it would have been tops! with or without Brian's involvement. But best with Brian on board as well, of course.

Also -- in Carlin's book it's suggested that Brian was not thrilled with the idea of working with Sean. He wanted to produce an album with the Beach Boys. If Don Was and Andy Paley helped, that was okay. They were friends and helped him do his thing. Bringing in Sean -- to Brian at least -- was seen as the group not trusting him, yet again.

I'm a little confused.  If Wilson was already recording with Paley and Was, how come O'Hagan was brought in?  Were they already talking about scrapping the Paley/Was stuff and starting over?

Relevant graf from Carlin's book:

"I have no idea why it didn't come together," Mike says. "I think everyone was willing to do it. I'm not sure how eager, but certainly willing." In 1998, Brian pointed the finger at Carl. "Well, a month after Carl sang Soul Searchin', he said he didn't like it and didn't want it on an album. That he didn't like it and had changed his opinion." According to Melinda Wilson, the real problem was that Carl didn't think Brian's new music was commercial enough. As a counterproposal, he and the other Beach Boys proposed teaming Brian with Sean O'Hagan, the leader of British avant-pop band the High Llamas. But Brian wasn't interested in doing that. "He didn't pick up a positive vibe," she says. "And Brian was really hurt that he had gone to them and asked them to work with him, and they had turned him down."

Some of the sequencing here might be a little off -- that'll happen when a lot of wrangling and bad feelings are put in a paragraph. But it captures the emotional dynamic. And frankly, I think Brian was wise not to collaborate with O'Hagan. The two don't actually have a lot in common aesthetically (the Llamas capture some of the sonic tricks, but it's done in service to lounge/exotica irony), and I can't imagine a collaboration working out particularly well.

I wouldn't say that their borrowing of lounge/exotica styles is ironic. I think Sean O'Hagan genuinely appreciates and is influenced by that music.

I think you're right. Irony isn't the word I want.

The general point is more that Sean O'Hagan has a certain distant, chiller approach to his musical materials. None of the Llamas songs (that I've heard) seem like they were written in moment of personal anguish (or, for that matter, jubilation). It's a somewhat detached approach.

This isn't to say the music isn't brilliant -- I actually managed to see the band on a rare U.S. tour and chat with Mr. O'Hagan some 12 years ago. A really nice guy, who really loves his "Friends." But that also makes sense, because that's one of the most lounge/exotica influenced BB albums, and one featuring a certain coolness and detachment.

This story really gives a whiff of just how toxic things were/are in BBs-land.  "Let's bring in a guy to sound like young Brian since old Brian ain't cutting it."  Not to mention Mike Love's seemingly resentful, passive/aggressive behavior towards O'Hagan, or Johnston's "be corporate...The Beach Boys love corporate" stuff.  Uggghhhh. 

Working out well musically? Or not working out well personally? Personally, I'm fairly confident I would find the outcome of their collaboration wildly interesting.

This is from a review of some Sunrays collection by Richie Unterberger. I think that it accurately expresses the problem with bands who say they're "influenced by" The Beach Boys:
Of course, replace 'The Sunrays' and 'Rick Henn' with whatever '90s/2000s Beach-Boys-influenced band you like! I think it still fits. Am I cynical? Probably! Too many bands can capture the letter of The Beach Boys well enough in making complex, pleasant-sounding pop music with fine vocal harmonies and whatnot. The spirit, however, is the missing aspect of the feel that truly makes it transcendent. I think one of the few recent albums to capture both is The Complete Pet Soul by Splitsville. See: "Aliceanna", "The Love Songs Of B. Douglas Wilson" (no merda!), "Caroline Knows", and so on. Curiously, their imitation manages to not be merely that; ostensibly it is because they -- as you might say of a gospel group -- got the spirit!

There's a degree of dis-ingenuity here in leaving out a major portion of the equation, which was the offer that was on the table from V2 and its being declined by Brian's management who decided he needed to do a solo album (Imagination) first. Bruce has gone on record as saying that was one of the stupidest decisions in the band's history.

Two more anecdotes: O'Hagan reportedly met with Joe Thomas, who in his words was producing "very right-wing country artists" and mentioned that Brian was an avant-garde artist and Thomas laughed in his face.

When Brian was asked of O'Hagan he said "he's doing things I did thirty years ago, why would I want to do that?"

Everyone quoted in this story (O'Hagan, Bruce, Melinda, Brian) has an agenda.

It makes it very hard to figure out an objective truth.

"He's doing things I did 30 years ago, why would I want to do that?" says Brian a couple of years before he takes Pet Sounds out on the road and resurrects Smile. Oh the irony!

It's up to debate, but I'm pretty sure Brian was talked into Pet Sounds & Smile tours, it wasn't necessarily his idea or his favorite thing to do. Now if it was the "Shortenin' Bread" Tour, yes then I'd agree.

I think the Brian quote is of questionable veracity. It appeared in print, I know, but still ...

Also, the band was offered a Pet Sounds tour (with Brian) of its own, but Carl shot that down because he told Melinda that he thought Brian would embarrass himself.

I know Mike might not be the warmest guy in the world all the time but I find it really hard to believe he called Sean O'Hagan a f****t as soon as they met. . .

I had the same thought.  It doesn't sound like something he'd say.

I kinda doubt that Sean O'Hagan played live with the band. I've never heard it from anyone other than him -- although, they did play Cincinnati on August 9 1996 (http://www.btinternet.com/~bellagio/gigs96.html), so it possible. That narrows down the time frame, too -- that's after sessions for Stars and Stripes wrapped, but before its release. Joe Thomas was on the scene by that point, too.

(The dismissal of a Cincinnati Beach Boys crowd as rednecks? Pretty silly.)

I said it before and I'll say it again, Carl really screwed Brian over during this time.

The Carlin paragraph doesn't make a lot of sense in suggesting that a partnering with O'Hagan was the proposed alternative to recording the supposedly non-commercial Paley tracks. There's no way O'Hagan and Wilson would come up with something more commercial than what Paley and Wilson did; is that what Carl was hoping for? If the band wanted something artsier and more like SUNFLOWER (which I believe O'Hagan suggested as a template), then I can understand the request to work with The High Llamas guy.

Since I don't think Mike is homophobic, and knowing Mike's unusual sense of humor, I wouldn't be surprised if calling Sean a "fagg­ot" was just a way of making him uneasy. I remember reading that Mike once said, during an interview, something along the lines of "I like making jokes who don't make people laugh". I can definitely relate to that - what matters to me are people's reactions. If they laugh, it's funny; if they're shocked, it's funny too! Some people don't get that, so you have to explain to these people afterwards that you just intended to be funny, at least to yourself. Mike might simply not have made himself clear enough after making fun of Sean.

Well, the High Llamas were on the label that had the offer -- V2 (it was the Virgin records follow-up company that Branson started) -- so perhaps it was a record company suggestion, too.

I think at one point they were trying it seems like maybe too hard to pair him up with anyone who sounded or were influenced in BB like fashion. I think Jellyfish at one point was suppose to do stuff with him too, but that didn't work out either.

He did some work with one of those guys. Manning? I forget whom. Probably something that ended up on a Ringo Starr album or something...

Backing vox on Don Was produced track "in a heartbeat" on the Time Takes Time album.

If Carl was resented, he had reason for it. After all, he was portraied as a distant alcoholic on his brother's autobiography. Oh, and also made responsible for Dennis' death.

...

That Brian had no interest in working with O'Hagan is made clear even by O'Hagan's account... even if he didn't realise it.

The song Manning and Brian worked on ended up as 'Wish it would rain' on Mannings first album, read about it here under July 1993;

http://smileysmile.net/OLDlibrary/timeline.html

In defence of Carl...

I think it's far too simplistic to compare Carl agreeing to perform on Summer in Paradise and yet not following through with the Paley sessions. I'm sure that SIP required very little emotional involvement from Carl and he could just turn up, record his vocals and forget about it. To have Brian so involved again would be a very different proposition though and Bruce's statement that the sessions were, 'underwhelming in every way' indicates that it certainly wasn't just about the quality of the songs. It certainly doesn't seem like Brian was in the best state at this point judging by the comments of O'Hagan and Rick Parfitt.

Carl turning down the idea of a Pet Sounds concert makes sense too. Carl had seen Brian have some terrible moments on stage (not just with the BBs but also solo) and would understandably be worried about him. A couple of years later Brian was still clearly nervous about performing so the idea of forcing him out on stage every night in front of several thousand people was bound to cause concern.

Im a HUGE Jellyfish fan and the song that Roger from Jellyfish wrote for/with Brian is called "Wish It Would Rain."

Here it is from Roger's first solo record.

http://www.last.fm/music/Roger+Joseph+Manning+Jr./_/Wish+It+Would+Rain

If you haven't heard Jellyfish's "Spilt Milk" LP then you need to buy it IMMEDIATELY. It's up there with Pet Sounds IMO.

Also, dunno if anyone's seen this pic of Brian, Andy, and songwriter Mike Viola (another modern pop genius - his album Lurch is fantastic) in the studio.

(http://c3.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/131/l_55155e325e65478d962a53160215739a.jpg)

Never seen that picture before, neat! Did Viola oversee the same meeting/sorta-sessions discussed above or was this for an entirely new project sometime else?

I've said it before and I'll say it now - Sean O'Hagan comes off as something of a weasel in this article. Of course I am happy he spilled the beans so I could read about it, but it is a very unprofessional thing to do, especially so close to  the time that the abortive collaboration would have happened.

I own several High Llamas albums and they are very good but there is a strong element of pastiche - hence Brian's "doing things I did thirty years ago" remark. O'Hagan's work with Stereolab is excellent. Had it happened, his work with Brian probably would have resulted in some good material.

The problem with it, however, is that like someone else said up-thread, Brian's people worked to pair him with collaborators who would make him sound 'more like Brian Wilson.' His best songwriting collaborators have always been the ones who added their own feel and flavor to what he does. Scott Bennett fits this mold nicely.

It's pretty amazing that Brian's camp was considering collaborating with Sean O'Hagan at the same time that Joe Thomas was courting him. Two diametric opposites.

After Imagination, Thomas must have had a rude awakening, since he and Brian bought houses next door to each other and everything. When was the last time Mr. Thomas worked with Brian Wilson?

I'd like to make a case for the High Llamas' 'Lollo Rosso' here. It is a remix album, and much less derivative then their other output. Very creative, happy and rhythmic. It features people like Cornelius and Mouse On Mars. There are definitely elements of 'Diamond Head' and 'Little Pad' in there. It came at mid- or budget price, but my latest investigation told me that it is out of print.

Highly recommended to all Brianistas.

Amazing that Carl (or Mike-Bruce-Al) would consider Sean O'Hagan, unknown to the mainstream U.S. pop audience, as a potenitally more commercial option than Don Was, who at the time was undoubtedly the most successful American record producer around. 

Was got Brian together with both Jellyfish guys (according to him) around 1992-93. 

I wasn't aware that the "Wish It Rain" song ever saw release, so thanks for the tip!  Was Brian credited on it?

Dunno if Viola actually wrote anything with him. I'll ask him next time I'm at one of his shows.

BW didn't get credit on the Roger song as the parts BW wrote for it were never used in the final version - so it's just Roger's song at this point. He BROUGHT it to BW to use (it wasn't obv).
GREAT song though.

Was doesn't come across well here either. I read somewhere he boasted about 'collecting' the 60s biggies - Bob, The Stones and BW... An opportunist, to be sure.  O'Hagan comes across as a major fan.  I can see why he might have felt he could've appealed to Brian's avant garde side.  Perhaps he wasn't aware that was long gone.

Someone mentioned earlier in this thread how everyone involved had their own agenda...a quick recap might be:

Brian's agenda was to produce the Beach Boys again...on his terms

The Beach Boys' agenda was to have another hit record; Capitol was willing to offer them a deal, provided Brian was involved, but the Beach Boys (or at least Carl) didn't trust Brian's judgement enough to allow him sole producer's rights

Brian would only share the producer's role with someone he felt comfortable with, such as Andy Paley and/or Don Was...and he was ready to do it now

Mike's agenda was to have Brian accept him again as a songwriting partner; he was willing to record the new songs Brian was writing with Andy, but only if he was allowed creative input in the majority of them

The Beach Boys decided to model their reunion with Brian after the Eagles' template:  first do an album with country artists singing their old songs to whet the public's appetite (in the BBs' case, they planned two such albums); to that end, they brought in Joe Thomas to co-produce that effort with Brian, possibly hoping that Thomas could then shepherd them through a commerical-sounding album of new songs with Brian that Capitol would be willing to market

Joe Thomas' agenda was to work with Brian on an album of new songs, either with the Beach Boys or with Brian solo (a Brian-produced Beach Boys album would undoubtedly be a bigger commercial success than a Brian solo effort, but Thomas was willing to take whichever he could get)

Richard Branson/Virgin's agenda was to sign The Beach Boys to V2, get Brian and Mike writing together again, and have a successful record (both artistically and commerically); knowing that the other Beach Boys wanted a solid co-producer working with Brian, they suggested Sean O'Hagan, whose Brian-influenced band the High Llamas were already signed to Virgin

Virign's offer was much more enticting than any deal they could get from Capitol, so the other Beach Boys were willing to work with whomever Virgin suggested

Sean O'Hagan's agenda was to work with Brian and move the Beach Boys' back to the artistic mindset of their "Holland" era

Brian (and his "people"), hurt by the Beach Boys' earlier rejection of his offer to produce them and their subsequent decison to delay an album of new songs in favor of "Stars and Stripes", and uninterested in a colloboration with Sean O'Hagan, decided to now make the Beach Boys wait by first moving forward on a solo album

Melinda's agenda was for Brian to have a hit (meaning "commerical-sounding") record, so she facilitated the partnership between Brian and Joe Thomas

In the end, everyone lost:  Brian's new album achieved only minor commercial success, the offer from Virgin expired, Carl got sick with cancer and passed away (thereby ending any desire on Brian's part to ever work with the Beach Boys in the studio again), and the fans were deprived of a potentially great final Beach Boys album full of new Brian Wilson-Andy Paley songs such as "Soul Searchin'", "Still A Mystery", and "Desert Drive".

Wow great picture! I love Andy's stuff too. I really love the work he did with Puffy Amiyumi!!! I was not aware of Mike Viola being involved with Brian? He's great too. He was (or is) in a band called the Candybutchers. Fun stuff to listen to!

C-Man -- Thank you. That seems to sum it up perfectly. A post for the ages.

And, of course, everyone likes to say Brian is manipulated in this situation, but it's pretty clear (in retrospect) what he wanted to do. You stated it. The Boys didn't want to do it.

And, for that matter, I think Brian got a bit swept up with the idea of doing an adult contemporary record, at least for a time. Several (but not all) of the Imagination tracks worked in that style. It's certainly worth noting that his subsequent original projects (TLOS, BWRG) have serious MOR elements. It was not as foreign to him as it might have seemed.

That being said, it was a hard turn from the Paley sessions aesthetic. And he's managed to navigate between those extremes more successfully with the band.

Does Brian really think that way, though?  I can't imagine him being calculated enough to consciously fit his sound into a particular genre. 

You may be right of course, but I'm betting it was more a matter of Melinda and Joe cooking up the idea that this was a good direction for Brian to go in, and BW just said "Great!" and ate some more ice cream.

I think he was excited about the prospect hits, absolutely. His folks told him AC was a way to do it.

He's talking in the Uncut article -- mentioned at the start of this thread -- about having a number one hit. Talking the boys all the way to the top!

That kind of competitive spirit was in the air for him at the time. Thomas talked about it in interviews. And Brian had to have realized at some level that if he couldn't do it with the Beach Boys, he might have to take a different tack. True, it was an easy direction to take -- a sympathetic producer was on hand, his wife liked Kenny G -- why not? It would been entirely unlike Brian, having reached this point, to say, "Forget you, Joe Thomas. I'm going back to cut a solo album from material I was really planning on using with the Beach Boys."

I do think in retrospect he probably doesn't like the direction as much, simply because it's very far from his signature sound (not all of the album, but certainly a third of the cuts or so). If it had produced hits, I think he may have liked it more. I mean, the man is still bummed he didn't sing on Kokomo -- he sees response to the music as utterly justifying the means.

Edit --

And it's clear that in the two years or so that happened after this, things took a turn (like usual in BW land) toward the worse. He seems to have lost some enthusiasm for Imagination as it went on (he was producing initial demos and early mixes, for instance -- this seems to have petered out as JT piled on the guitar flourishes and sonic smoothing), and there were record company problems. He had to re-record some lead vocals, apparently, after they were decreed "not good enough." And the initial efforts to perform the album live were awkward.

But I think at the start of the process -- and at times during the record's creation -- this was a project Brian cared about and took seriously. And his vocal arrangements are perhaps the best of his solo career -- intricate and soaring, lush and lulling throughout.

Lovely post Wirestone!

Granted, it's not a situation Brian was comfortable in (camera, lights, strangers), but the Imagination DVD St. Charles studio segments are most informative. The only time he really seems to come alive is when he's halfway out of the door to catch a plane to LA. Factor in the outtakes and... well.

Brian has, and always has had, a limited attention span: he gets bored very easily, moves on quickly.  Back in the early/mid 60s, he had the energy - and the industry was so configured - to turn out product like a sausage machine. And he did. Smile was the first mis-step in this - he took his time, because he thought he could, but somehow it didn't gel. Smiley, Honey & Friends gelled because they were short, sharp projects, but by 20/20 it was taking months as opposed to weeks to do an album, and Brian's initial enthusiasm waned quickly. Spring turned into a Sandler/Desper/Wilson (M.)/Rovell project. And so on.

The other factor to consider about Brian is his almost pathological desire to please people. When the Imagination project commenced, he'd been married to Melinda for less than two years. Of course he's going to nod when she suggested an AC direction. Brian's credo post-Smile has been almost monastic in its spartan simplicity: the path of least resistance... unless it's something he really wants to do, or that engages him. There haven't been many, but the Gershwin project is one such.

Great point on the short bursts of activity, AGD. And if the bipolar diagnosis for BW is correct, it makes a lot of sense. Brian can create almost effortlessly in a manic phase, but once he crashes, it's hard for him to care about or do anything.

As for the path of least resistance post-66 -- the history is pretty self evident. But Carlin's book makes a good point of showing how Brian can subtly manipulate folks around him into clearing a path of least resistance for him to follow. He latches into tough people to make decisions and choices he's not willing to make himself. Then they "talk him into things." Well, that's one of the reasons he loves (and hates) these people -- Murry, Gene, Melinda -- they force him to act.

As for the people pleasing -- that's one of the most heart-rending scenes of IJWMFTT -- watching Audree so hesitantly yet accurately diagnose what makes Brian both wonderful and frustrating.

Interesting.  Will need to go back and read Carlin again.  BW does seem to have a knack for getting involved with people who tell him what to do and how to do it.  Very frustrating for fans, but perhaps that's the way he likes it(?).

I don't think there's any question.

Think about it this way -- basically at any point in his life where he hasn't had strong supervision or motivation from a parental figure, Brian has fallen apart. And it's not that complicated -- he is mentally ill and needs a caretaker. And he knows it, but like many folks with such issues he also resents it as well.

But he's also smart, and a little egotistical. Brian knows that if he makes himself look as blameless as possible, if people don't like what he does, he can always make someone else the fall guy. You think his constant "wifeandmanagers" talk is about Brian being manipulated? Maybe. But it's also about him manipulating the people around him, and his audience's expectations.

Latest case in point -- the Gershwin album. Multiple sources have suggested that this is project Brian has talked about and wanted to do for awhile. Yet in interviews, he's said that he was asked to do it. He's clearly familiar with at least some of Gershwin's output, yet he says he was taught all the songs by Paul. There's no question he produced the album, yet in one interview he said that Melinda produced his lead vocals (I assume she was at the studio at some point when he was working on his leads).

The common factor here -- a lack of willingness (in public) to take responsibility for creative decisions. (Unless the album does well, like Smile, in which case he's more than happy to take the credit, regardless of how much he actually did.) "I'm Brian, I'm a legend, but I'm so weak." Yeah, right.

And a few more observations:

1.) The BB were recording over Don Was produced backing tracks, not the Paley/Wilson tracks. Soul Searching out on boots is the groups vocals flown back onto the Wilson/Paley tracks. Carl objected to the Was tracks.

2.) Brian really didn't get a good vibe off of Sean. He said to several people Seankinda creeped him out. Brian said Sean seemed to be buzzed when he met him. We know Sean talks about like his drugs in interviews around that time. Who knows.

3.) Imagination is an album I still listen to more than any of Brian's other projects, because his voice sounds so good. The songs aren't bad either.

I will shut up now.

From the article it sounds like Sean was already creeped out by Bruce Johnston before going to meet with BW.  That may have contributed to the weird vibe too.