BWPS: How much input did Brian have?

[Bill Tobelman]

After I run...I could really use a drop to drink.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

He did the same in a dutch newspaper in connection with the european Smile tour, where he said he wasn't able to make any decisions and other people had to do it for him. Melinda had to tell the bewildered fans that it was one of Brian's bad days and there was bad vibes between him and the interviewer.

Well, if its true that he wasn't able to make any decisions and other people had to do it for him, then its no wonder that he has bad days. Not the only time he's said that, too.

[Glenn Greenberg]

the whole RockyNStan thing was pretty grim, and that was Mike's idea.

You're gonna have to elaborate on that one.  I'm still a newbie, remember?

[Bicyclerider]

I don't think it's any secret that Melinda, David, and others around Brian make decisions for him regarding his career, his concert tours, and even what his next project will be.  If Brian had his way, and he's said as much in interviews, he would stay at home, watch TV, and eat steak and drink Heineken beer.  The Smile live tour was not his idea - resurrectiing the Smile music in any form was not his idea or his wish, it was suggested to him by Melinda and David Leaf.  Nevertheless Brian acquiesced (sp?) to the tour and the album, despite misgivings and a trip to the hospital.  Apparently Brian realizes he is inherently lazy (along with many of us) and that he "needs" some prompting to work.  Once the work is done, he is happy he did it, but along the way he has his "bad days" where he feels he doesn't want to do it.

The bottom line is that the people around Brian feel they know what's best for Brian, and make decisions for him and his career that he goes along with it, mostly happily but sometimes not so happily.  I've heard this justified by the reasoning that if Brian really didn't want to do it, he would find some way out of it or just would refuse - maybe that's true, maybe it isn't.  The theory is a "productive Brian" is ultimately a happier Brian at the end of the day.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

If Brian had his way, and he's said as much in interviews, he would stay at home, watch TV, and eat steak and drink Heineken beer

And the problem with that would be...? Sh*t, if that would make him happy, then so the hell what? I mean, personally, I'd love it if he kept making music (selfish, yes) but not at the expense of him being happy.

[Cam Mott]

Since we are questioning what everyone tells everyone, I have to question what Carl told Peter about concert arrangements.  Maybe because he was older and it was later day Carl misremembered.  Only a couple of British writers questioned the concert not matching the album as far as I know and back at the time it happened Carl basically told the writer anyone who expected the concert to sound like the album was an idiot.  He wasn't cowed by it a bit.  Their matching shirts got ridiculed in England too but they didn't stop wearing them as long as Brian was in charge.  They were already playing PS and GV to sold out crowds and if it was such a problem why did they continue to play them in concert, even adding H&V.  Did any of their concerts ever sound like the albums?  Did no music equivalent to whatever would be a single from SMiLE get played in concert?  Al's memory of his and Carl's attitude of artistic challenge rather than avoidance rings truer to what actually happened imo.

[Cam Mott]

For years no major label would touch them as far as giving them a shot at making an album unless Brian was involved in a major way. Forcing that pressure on a mentally ill man who really wanted nothing to do with the band could be called by some as cruel and demeaning. 

I don't think it was cruel of Melinda and David.

Carl in particular would produce Brian's songs (the Brian songs on CATP=ST are Carl productions) in Brian's style, creating the appearance that he was still involved.  As to what they used to get him to stay, that would take a book to explain.

Carl was creating a false appearance or doing it the way he had learned from his mentor?

[MBE]

As for MBE's assertion that Brian was deeply involved through Surfs Up? I suppose you can convince yourself of lots of things, but having heard nearly 90% of the tape from those years, I can tell you that the Beach Boys after Smiley Smile did a very good job of convincing the record companies that Brian was there, when he wasn't. Why? Because he was mentally ill with untreated bipolar, and because he was full tilt in cocaine dependence.

Nothing personal Peter but you have to go on what you have been told and so do I.What I have been told differs greatly from what you have I guess. I have heard plenty of tapes myself and of course studied the albums. Desper and Brian himself both told me was involved with almost every track to one point or another during that time. Desper's book tells us exactly what everone did. You can hear the difference when Brian did stop. Ed Roach and Debbie Keil among many others say the saw a big change after Holland. Like everyone here I have listened to records seen pictures and heard interviews that tell me what Brian acted like on stage, in the studio, and in interviews. My opinion the Brian of 1967-71 was in far better shape then he ever was later. Again I have to go on what I have been told and my own observations. Still enjoy your posts Peter even if we disagree.

[Andrew G. Doe]

The Smile live tour was not his idea - resurrectiing the Smile music in any form was not his idea or his wish, it was suggested to him by Melinda and David Leaf. 

... as was the Pet Sounds Tour[/b] and, indeed touring in the first place.

The bottom line is that the people around Brian feel they know what's best for Brian, and make decisions for him and his career that he goes along with it, mostly happily but sometimes not so happily. 

Maybe it's just me, but does the fact that most, if not all, of Brian's albums since Imagination have been released on different labels worry anyone ?

As for Brian wanting GIOMH to be a part of the BWPS package - well, we know that's not true. The album was being shopped around for a good few months, and the original release date was January 2004. Scott Bennett got ripped a new one when he told a fan that they were having trouble getting a record deal for it and said fan repeated the news on the Beach Boys Britain MB.

[buddhahat]

In July 2006 this is what I want to know about Smile.  In September 2000 Durrie Parks E-mailed me stating she had Smile acetates and tapes.

Could someone please tell me if the tapes and acetates are safe?  Further, has anyone (Hello David Leaf) listened to them?

Yeah in one of the saved threads of this site there is talk of Smile acetates sitting in Durrie Parks garage waiting to be listened to when her and her family have time to clear the garage. I have wondered if there have been further developments with these acetates - does anyone hane any info please?

[Jeff Mason]

As for Brian wanting GIOMH to be a part of the BWPS package - well, we know that's not true. The album was being shopped around for a good few months, and the original release date was January 2004. Scott Bennett got ripped a new one when he told a fan that they were having trouble getting a record deal for it and said fan repeated the news on the Beach Boys Britain MB.

Andrew, it was my understanding that GIMOH was done before the Smile tour and no one would release it without Smile being part of the deal, and that Brian was miffed because what he really wanted to release was GIOMH.  Is that wrong?

[MBE]

I'm just glad the last 3 have been on vinyl and that they don't sound "modern"

[Andrew G. Doe]

As for Brian wanting GIOMH to be a part of the BWPS package - well, we know that's not true. The album was being shopped around for a good few months, and the original release date was January 2004. Scott Bennett got ripped a new one when he told a fan that they were having trouble getting a record deal for it and said fan repeated the news on the Beach Boys Britain MB.

Andrew, it was my understanding that GIMOH was done before the Smile tour and no one would release it without Smile being part of the deal, and that Brian was miffed because what he really wanted to release was GIOMH.  Is that wrong?

GIOMH was in the can by late fall 2003 and being shopped around the record companies by itself... and no-one would take it. That's when it became part of the BWPS, especially post-2/20/04.

As for Brian wanting to release it, well, my ears tell me he wasn't all that interested in the project at all. He didn't pick the tracks and he sure as hell didn't waste too much time doing the vocals properly (when the material engages Brian's interest, he responds... when it doesn't, it's very obvious). In my opinion, the sole redeeming feature of the whole farrago was that it made someone realise that 1) Brian had to sing way better for BWPS; and 2) doing all the bvs by himself wasn't such a good idea in 2003/4.

[Sir Rob]

As for Brian wanting GIOMH to be a part of the BWPS package - well, we know that's not true. The album was being shopped around for a good few months, and the original release date was January 2004. Scott Bennett got ripped a new one when he told a fan that they were having trouble getting a record deal for it and said fan repeated the news on the Beach Boys Britain MB.

Andrew, it was my understanding that GIMOH was done before the Smile tour and no one would release it without Smile being part of the deal, and that Brian was miffed because what he really wanted to release was GIOMH.  Is that wrong?

GIOMH was in the can by late fall 2003 and being shopped around the record companies by itself... and no-one would take it. That's when it became part of the BWPS, especially post-2/20/04.

As for Brian wanting to release it, well, my ears tell me he wasn't all that interested in the project at all. He didn't pick the tracks and he sure as hell didn't waste too much time doing the vocals properly (when the material engages Brian's interest, he responds... when it doesn't, it's very obvious). In my opinion, the sole redeeming feature of the whole farrago was that it made someone realise that 1) Brian had to sing way better for BWPS; and 2) doing all the bvs by himself wasn't such a good idea in 2003/4.

Why would he sing all the background vocals if he had little interest in the album?  Why not just leave the band to arrange and perform them?

[Andrew G. Doe]

As for Brian wanting GIOMH to be a part of the BWPS package - well, we know that's not true. The album was being shopped around for a good few months, and the original release date was January 2004. Scott Bennett got ripped a new one when he told a fan that they were having trouble getting a record deal for it and said fan repeated the news on the Beach Boys Britain MB.

Andrew, it was my understanding that GIMOH was done before the Smile tour and no one would release it without Smile being part of the deal, and that Brian was miffed because what he really wanted to release was GIOMH.  Is that wrong?

GIOMH was in the can by late fall 2003 and being shopped around the record companies by itself... and no-one would take it. That's when it became part of the BWPS, especially post-2/20/04.

As for Brian wanting to release it, well, my ears tell me he wasn't all that interested in the project at all. He didn't pick the tracks and he sure as hell didn't waste too much time doing the vocals properly (when the material engages Brian's interest, he responds... when it doesn't, it's very obvious). In my opinion, the sole redeeming feature of the whole farrago was that it made someone realise that 1) Brian had to sing way better for BWPS; and 2) doing all the bvs by himself wasn't such a good idea in 2003/4.

Why would he sing all the background vocals if he had little interest in the album?  Why not just leave the band to arrange and perform them?

Because someone else thought it was a good idea ?

[Glenn Greenberg]

A question regarding Brian's involvement with the Beach Boys circa 1969-71:

If the Boys were desperate for Brian to be involved with them during that time--or at least to create the APPEARANCE that he was involved with them--is it possible that they added his name to the credits of songs that he didn't really write or co-write on albums like SUNFLOWER, SURF'S UP, SO TOUGH, and HOLLAND?

[Andrew G. Doe]

A question regarding Brian's involvement with the Beach Boys circa 1969-71:

If the Boys were desperate for Brian to be involved with them during that time--or at least to create the APPEARANCE that he was involved with them--is it possible that they added his name to the credits of songs that he didn't really write or co-write on albums like SUNFLOWER, SURF'S UP, SO TOUGH, and HOLLAND?

Well, Elvis got his name added to stuff he didn't write, and so did Spector.

[Glenn Greenberg]

A question regarding Brian's involvement with the Beach Boys circa 1969-71:

If the Boys were desperate for Brian to be involved with them during that time--or at least to create the APPEARANCE that he was involved with them--is it possible that they added his name to the credits of songs that he didn't really write or co-write on albums like SUNFLOWER, SURF'S UP, SO TOUGH, and HOLLAND?

Well, Elvis got his name added to stuff he didn't write, and so did Spector.

I'm now feeling very disillusioned.

[Smilin Ed H]

He didn't write any of Pet Sounds.  David Marks did.  Wait for Stebbins' new book.

[jazzfascist]

Brian gave one extremely negative interview when GIOMH was released.  He claimed the songs were chosen for him, and he wasn't happy with the results.  He gave different views in different interviews.  It's hard to say what Brian feels about things at times.

He did the same in a dutch newspaper in connection with the european Smile tour, where he said he wasn't able to make any decisions and other people had to do it for him. Melinda had to tell the bewildered fans that it was one of Brian's bad days and there was bad vibes between him and the interviewer.

Søren

And why is that hard to believe?  I say things I don't mean when I am in a snit. 

You can believe anything you want. The point is that you get a lot of contradictory stories about Brian's situtation, also from himself. He was probably exaggerating somewhat, but I think there's also some truth to it. I don't think he's a vegetable, but he's probably not up to his full capacity. I think you can also hear it in the music, his lead vocals sound somewhat stilted and unsure, like he's had to relearn singing and considers every word he's singing, it doesn't just flow from him. Doesn't mean that he still hasn't got  something to offer, I think there was still good things on GIOMH and his christmas album, but I just think he still has to fight a debilitating insecurity and some heavy mood changes, he's probably not just lazy. It's great that he's still trying, and some good things can still come out of that, even if he's probably just able to work at half speed.

Søren

[jazzfascist]

A question regarding Brian's involvement with the Beach Boys circa 1969-71:

If the Boys were desperate for Brian to be involved with them during that time--or at least to create the APPEARANCE that he was involved with them--is it possible that they added his name to the credits of songs that he didn't really write or co-write on albums like SUNFLOWER, SURF'S UP, SO TOUGH, and HOLLAND?

Well, Elvis got his name added to stuff he didn't write, and so did Spector.

I'm now feeling very disillusioned.

I don't know if it's a big problem, he was probably sometimes cocredited for songs like "At My Window" or "Deirdre" even if he contributed very little. The big songs like "'Til' I Die" must have been Brian, there's just a marked difference in quality.

Søren

[Jeff Mason]

Brian gave one extremely negative interview when GIOMH was released.  He claimed the songs were chosen for him, and he wasn't happy with the results.  He gave different views in different interviews.  It's hard to say what Brian feels about things at times.

He did the same in a dutch newspaper in connection with the european Smile tour, where he said he wasn't able to make any decisions and other people had to do it for him. Melinda had to tell the bewildered fans that it was one of Brian's bad days and there was bad vibes between him and the interviewer.

Søren

And why is that hard to believe?  I say things I don't mean when I am in a snit. 

You can believe anything you want. The point is that you get a lot of contradictory stories about Brian's situtation, also from himself. He was probably exaggerating somewhat, but I think there's also some truth to it. I don't think he's a vegetable, but he's probably not up to his full capacity. I think you can also hear it in the music, his lead vocals sound somewhat stilted and unsure, like he's had to relearn singing and considers every word he's singing, it doesn't just flow from him. Doesn't mean that he still hasn't got  something to offer, I think there was still good things on GIOMH and his christmas album, but I just think he still has to fight a debilitating insecurity and some heavy mood changes, he's probably not just lazy. It's great that he's still trying, and some good things can still come out of that, even if he's probably just able to work at half speed.

Søren

I can agree with this.

[Old Rake]

Doesn't mean that it probably wasn't supposed to be some kind of concept album, but more in the way that Pet Sounds or Song Cycle were concept albums.

Yes, and yes. I can buy the concept of movements if we're still talking about, as Van Dyke Parks told Andrew further up the thread, "twelve banded tracks." In other words: movements in name or placement on album only. If, when we talk about movements, we're talking about songs that join together like they do on the MODERN Smile, I have a major problem with that because as Cam has pointed out many times, the songs have fades recorded for them. They were VERY CLEARLY cut as stand-alone songs. Joined-together movements aren't borne out by the songs COMPOSITIONALLY.

If the idea is that Brian's ORIGINAL idea was to have songs join together but that got scotched along the way, it must have gotten scotched pretty early because Wind Chimes, cut very first, quite a while before the other stuff -- and actually, before Van Dyke was even on the project, right? -- was recorded first with a definite ending and then, in the redo, with a fade. In fact, all the songs besides "Wonderful" were cut with a definite ending or a fade -- there doesn't seem like an "early stage" of the compositions where they seem like they were being cut with joining together in mind.

I have no problem with the songs being joined together on the modern Smile, because it works with way they arranged the songs for that album -- meaning they lopped off a lot of those definite endings/fades and found ways to join the songs together via new pieces of music. I like it, it works great. But I'm virtually certain after hearing all the sessions, and seeing all the pictures of boxes with "fade" and such labeled on them, that the songs were just that in '66 -- *songs*.

Now, as to how Brian meant to place them in the track lineup -- that's open for debate. He may very well have planned on grouping them thematically into "movements" -- hell, lots of folks did that in the 60s, Brian probably wouldn't even have been the first! But I'm not at all sure a) why the Beach Boys would object to that, since it really makes no nevermind how they sit on the album, does it? I mean, does it? and b) why it matters so much that we write history such that the songs need to be "joined together" into THAT kind of movement for the album to be "true to Brian's vision" or whatever.

This business-meeting veto -- until I hear a direct quote from somebody who was at said meeting, or who could describe it, I think it needs to sit in the realm of speculation. I just have a hard time with the Beach Boys objecting to the way the songs are arranged on an album. That seems like such a tiny, niggling sticking point that I cannot imagine they'd care about when the GIANT WHITE ELEPHANT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE ROOM is that the songs were effing weird to begin with!

It'd be a bit like hiring a painter to paint a wall brown, and then when you saw it the next day it was painted garish pink, and all you could think of to object to was that he missed a spot. You know?

[Old Rake]

Further, to J. Rauch's point earlier about the fragments not working as songs -- of course, that's because they haven't been edited together into songs! Do you really think that "Great Shape" in 2005 bears more than a passing resemblance to what "Great Shape" in '66 would have been like? I'm virtually certain it was assembled in modern day with no rememberance of what the plan was back then regarding that song, based on session documentation. Brian was so meticulous back then -- each song had so many different parts and they fit together in such an intricate way, that "Great Shape" the way it exists in modern day sticks out like a sore thumb.

I mean, heck, "Old Master Painter" exists on the modern album without the fade they cut for it (and I do miss it), so they definitely were not following the mold from '66.

So yeah -- those songs would have worked far better as SONGS back in the day, because they would have been assembled differently. In the context of the modern album, I think they work well as fragments, parts of a whole or parts of a movement, but they certainly could have existed as banded tracks, and I'm sure would have.

[Old Rake]

A question regarding Brian's involvement with the Beach Boys circa 1969-71:

If the Boys were desperate for Brian to be involved with them during that time--or at least to create the APPEARANCE that he was involved with them--is it possible that they added his name to the credits of songs that he didn't really write or co-write on albums like SUNFLOWER, SURF'S UP, SO TOUGH, and HOLLAND?

Well, Elvis got his name added to stuff he didn't write, and so did Spector.

I'm now feeling very disillusioned.

I think that what they did, frequently, was finish fragments of Brian's. I think "Marcella" is an example of that. I'm not sure at all that they didn't just take part of "I Just Got My Pay," put new lyrics to it, and re-produce it as a "new" song.