Guns N' Roses

[the captain]

I don't "buy" any of it, and more than that, I don't give any particular value to songs about things the writers lived as opposed to things imagined (or for that matter, written about for the sole reason of profiting). Lou Reed wrote songs about whatever trends he was told to, after all. Frankly, there is something to respect in that: craftsmanship. So for me, the purported reality isn't important at all. What is, is that the songs were just better than most of those of the other bands we're talking about. (Though, for example, I also would be happy to discuss the merits of Poison. There is no shame in shameless enjoyment.)

[Mike's Beard]

GNR were definitely not a "hair metal" band. They were kind of like a version of the Stones for the late 80s, full of that bad-boy machismo and great guitar licks. Besides, shouldn't we all love GNR because they covered a Manson track?

No because it was an abysmal cover.

[Jay]

I've really been into the Illusion albums lately. I consider Estranged and November Rain works of art.  Say what you want about Axl, but every artist has his "masterpiece". Those songs are Axl's. 

[grillo]

I've really been into the Illusion albums lately. I consider Estranged and November Rain works of art.  Say what you want about Axl, but every artist has his "masterpiece". Those songs are Axl's. 

Like I said earlier, you need to hear the old demos to know how good November Rain could've been. Check this (forget the visuals, or don't...) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1O70QP80oMM
Hope you like

[Jay]

I've really been into the Illusion albums lately. I consider Estranged and November Rain works of art.  Say what you want about Axl, but every artist has his "masterpiece". Those songs are Axl's. 

Like I said earlier, you need to hear the old demos to know how good November Rain could've been. Check this (forget the visuals, or don't...) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1O70QP80oMM
Hope you like

Have you heard the Estranged demo? Axl was(and probably still is) one hell of a great piano player.  This might get deleted, but hopefully somebody will see it before that happens. After getting all the albums Guns put out(except Chinese Democracy), I'm looking to get into the tape trading scene, but I know absolutely nothing about Guns N Roses bootlegs. Any help would be appreciated.

[guitarfool2002]

I don't "buy" any of it, and more than that, I don't give any particular value to songs about things the writers lived as opposed to things imagined (or for that matter, written about for the sole reason of profiting). Lou Reed wrote songs about whatever trends he was told to, after all. Frankly, there is something to respect in that: craftsmanship. So for me, the purported reality isn't important at all. What is, is that the songs were just better than most of those of the other bands we're talking about. (Though, for example, I also would be happy to discuss the merits of Poison. There is no shame in shameless enjoyment.)

That is all valid and I agree with the craftsmanship of being able to write in the third-person as a character or from a perspective you may not personally have experienced, but the original comment was about the songs being "genuine" and at least on the Appetite album it would be hard to make the case that the songs were anything but genuine since the band was writing about their own situations and lives.

The extreme point would be an artist like Vanilla Ice, claiming to be all kinds of things he was not in order to seem credible to his audience. When the truth comes out the backlash is too much to overcome, because they're tagged as a phony. Saying Vanilla Ice's music is not genuine is miles away from saying Guns N Roses music is not genuine.

And for the record, it was never Axl Rose that made me a fan of the band. It was them as a *band*, and actually I thought Axl was a pain in the ass more often than not, and as soon as his vision for the band became the band. I was done with them.

[Mac the Hat]

I've really been into the Illusion albums lately. I consider Estranged and November Rain works of art.  Say what you want about Axl, but every artist has his "masterpiece". Those songs are Axl's. 

Like I said earlier, you need to hear the old demos to know how good November Rain could've been. Check this (forget the visuals, or don't...) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1O70QP80oMM
Hope you like

I had this verison on a tape before the Use Your Illusion discs came out. (and a longish piano verison too). The acoustic verison is just stunning, I could have wept when I heard the over produced album version. I never really forgave GnR after that.

[Jay]

I didn't know that some Illusion demos were being traded even before the songs got officially released. I bet Axl didn't like that.  Personally, I really like November Rain. A lot of people say it's not really a typical "Guns N Roses" sound, but I think it's great.

[?]

This might get deleted, but hopefully somebody will see it before that happens. After getting all the albums Guns put out(except Chinese Democracy)

What, you don't have $1.99? 

I'm looking to get into the tape trading scene, but I know absolutely nothing about Guns N Roses bootlegs. Any help would be appreciated.

Somewhere in my piles of neglected cds I have a boot with the two early versions of November Rain, demos/rehearsals of Appetite songs and some other stuff.  There's a boot out there of the Lies sessions with some alternate takes and an unreleased track.  I really like the dvd boots of the Live At the Ritz MTV show (there's one taken from the broadcast master as I recall, as well as an uncut version in lesser quality) and the '87 acoustic gig at CBGB.

I loved GNR, but after Adler left it was all downhill.  And when Izzy left it was over.

[grillo]

Somewhere in my piles of neglected cds I have a boot with the two early versions of November Rain, demos/rehearsals of Appetite songs and some other stuff.  There's a boot out there of the Lies sessions with some alternate takes and an unreleased track.  I really like the dvd boots of the Live At the Ritz MTV show (there's one taken from the broadcast master as I recall, as well as an uncut version in lesser quality) and the '87 acoustic gig at CBGB.

I loved GNR, but after Adler left it was all downhill.  And when Izzy left it was over.

Yeah, i remember having a one or two LP set of Appetite demos that had Don't cry and both versions of Nov. Rain (piano and guitar) that made me pretty hip in High School around 1990. They sounded shitty but they were in vinyl. Sold them along with my copy of the 12" single of Welcome to the Jungle that had the way better mix of Mr. Brownstone on it about 15 years ago!
Even then they were worth good money and I had to pay rent after all.
Forgot about the Ritz show, but I did tape it at the time.
Post Adler is unlistenable. Sorum lacks anything resembling soul.

[Alex]

Now that I think about it, GNR did have some worthwhile songs...Sweet Child, Patience, Look at Your Game Girl...I think my problem lies mostly with their image and their being aligned with the LA metal scene instead of the alt/indie/college rock movement. I`m superficial like that sometimes. :-O

[guitarfool2002]

It does surprise people to tell them November Rain was written and recorded as a demo years before the Use Your Illusion project: It's so tied into Use Your Illusion as an epic song with Axl tinkling away on grand piano and everything from the video - but that song was in fact considered for Appetite but held back in favor of Sweet Child.

That MTV live at The Ritz show is really, really good and I'd highly recommend anyone interested look for that one. I mentioned just a bit of that a few posts ago, but that show was a killer. I remember watching the show itself, then they spun videos like "Paradise City" and "Knockin On Heaven's Door" from that concert and played them semi-regular on MTV's playlist when GnR were huge. There was a time when MTV at night had a request countdown well before Carson Daly turned it into a fucking travesty with all his boy bands and Kid Rock, but they took actual requests.

Among those longest-running number one request videos I remember: GnR Paradise City which seemed to be at the top for weeks on end, and Daydream Believer by the Monkees. Unless my memory is bad...

[Jay]

I've read that November Rain existed during the Appetite For Destruction, but I think I read that it was still unfinished, so I don't think it could have been included on Appetite, even if they wanted to.

I'm starting to become a pretty big fan, but I don't really understand the argument about Izzy. I tend to think that Slash and Duff were the real backbone of the group. I've seen some videos of the group in concert with Gilby Clarke, and they sounded just as great as they did a year or two earier, if not even better.

By the way, am I the only Guns N Roses fan on earth that actually likes Dizzy Reed? Even Slash doesn't like him. 

[guitarfool2002]

I've read that November Rain existed during the Appetite For Destruction, but I think I read that it was still unfinished, so I don't think it could have been included on Appetite, even if they wanted to.

I'm starting to become a pretty big fan, but I don't really understand the argument about Izzy. I tend to think that Slash and Duff were the real backbone of the group. I've seen some videos of the group in concert with Gilby Clarke, and they sounded just as great as they did a year or two earier, if not even better.

By the way, am I the only Guns N Roses fan on earth that actually likes Dizzy Reed? Even Slash doesn't like him. 

Who the f*** is Dizzy Reed? 

Just kidding!

It's not hard to find a demo for November Rain which was done before Appetite, and it's as finished as a song might get on a demo before they'd have gone in with a producer and refined the rough spots to make it sound pretty. It could have easily gone on Appetite but they chose not to work on it because they already had a "ballad" in Sweet Child and didn't want another on the same record.

Izzy and Slash were the team that brought that Stones-Aerosmith rhythm and lead sound back in style, and read an interview with Slash where he's asked about it and he'll always praise Izzy as an excellent rhythm player. Izzy got in between the beat the way Keith Richards did best when he had Mick Taylor to play leads, or how Joe Perry and Brad Whitford played that awesome funky rhythm in a tune like "Walk This Way" where neither player is overpowering or getting in the way of the other parts. It's fitting into a pocket of rhythm that drives a full band, including the drums.

Welcome To The Jungle is a fantastic example of this style of rhythm guitar bewteen Slash and Izzy, and what's cool about the way they mixed Appetite is how Izzy's guitar is always panned to the same side on every song. So if you want to hear the song without Izzy, just drop that channel and you'll hear Slash, Duff, and Adler with Axl singing over top.

And it's sounds like it's missing something important.

[Jay]

I'll have to check that out. Thanks for pointing it out. 

Listening to that acoustic demo of November Rain and then hearing the finished product is quite interesting. The demo has a very bleak mood to it. It has a very raw naked emotion to it. The studio cut is obviously about heartbreak and a loss of love, but on the demo you can actually FEEL it.  It's a lot like the early acoustic version of the Bob Dylan song Idiot Wind, versus the released studio version. The lyrics are pretty much the same, but the difference in mood makes it seem like two completely different songs.

[guitarfool2002]

On Appetite, Izzy's guitar is panned hard to the left channel the whole time. It's cool because on a song like Welcome To The Jungle some of the leads that may be assumed to be from Slash were actually Izzy, like the intro leads under the echo guitar. And Paradise City is easy to hear the Aerosmith Walk This Way guitar influence in the verses, plus you hear Slash doing technical stuff like pinch harmonics and speed runs in his rhythm track, while Izzy is more classic-rock straightforward. Really cool.

[?]

I'm starting to become a pretty big fan, but I don't really understand the argument about Izzy. I tend to think that Slash and Duff were the real backbone of the group. I've seen some videos of the group in concert with Gilby Clarke, and they sounded just as great as they did a year or two earier, if not even better.

To add to guitarfool2002's comments, on Appetite and Lies Izzy was essentially the primary songwriter.  He's all over those albums.  Less so on the Illusions and they suffer for it.  It says something that after Izzy left the band they couldn't get original material together.

[Jay]

I've akways wondered who the main song writer was. I knew that Patience was Izzy's song. But with all the things said regarding Axl, I kind of figured that he took charge of most of it. In his book, Slash kind of gives himself a lot of credit for the songs.

[Shady]

Is this not the best cover ever?

Axl's still got it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsK9gCg32Qw

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I don't know why, but I've never liked GNR. I don't care for Slash's style, and Axl Rose's voice is like Freddy Kreuger's nails on a chalkboard.

[shelter]

I liked them when I was in my teens and I have all their albums on CD, but I never listen to them anymore.

[Jay]

Is this not the best cover ever?
Axl's still got it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsK9gCg32Qw

No. 

[Jay]

Yesterday was the 20th anniversary of the Use Your Illusions albums. I feel old.