The Smiley Smile Message Board

... do you think Brian would have remained an active participant in the Beach Boys and managed to avoid the steep decline he experienced in the early to mid 1970s?

I've seen it suggested that he took the failure of the album very hard, as if it were a final repudiation of Brian and his work, and a message that the public didn't want to hear from him anymore.

Had the album been embraced then and there, when it first came out, do you think it would have had any effect on Brian's self-esteem and his mental state in general?  Or do you think things would have played out exactly as they did in real life?

Interesting question.  I know we all go this-or-that song should have been a hit, but usually we fail to take into account that a hit was (and to some extent still is) something that sounds "right" on the radio.  Using that criteria, the one song on SUNFLOWER that always struck me as a hit that never was was actually "Deirdre," although it might have been about a year too late for its Carnaby Street vibe.  And I wonder if a Bruce tune hitting for the band might have upset the applecart in a whole different way.

It's hard to be totally certain, not knowing how any of his other problems (mental illness, drugs) may have effected him in the event of a success with Sunflower, but I'd think it would have helped.   It wasn't enough to simply be making great music, i think he really wanted that acceptance too.  Knowing how competitive he was and how the idea of "failing" to a guy that had been raised by Murray, had to have been nearly the worst thing ever.   To have ditched his own direction for the new democratic band structure (music wise), yet knowing he was still the lynch pin for its success or failure must have been a mind effer in itself, but then to witness his efforts (and he put forth many good efforts during the time leading up Sunflower) pretty much put down and ignored - it could've been pretty devastating.  
But then again, success or not, he may have travelled the same course anyway.   :-\

"Deirdre" a hit?  I never could imagine in my wildest dreams that the Boys could've had a hit with that...

"This Whole World" should've been the lead single, but even that wouldn't have been a hit.  The Beach Boys were pretty irrelevant when Sunflower came out. 

But, if the album HAD been a hit, I think it would have only minimally impacted Brian's future role.  We're talking about a guy who had way more serious issues to deal with than just the flop of an album.

A more interesting question might be, what would have happened if a song by Dennis or Carl would have been a major hit single?  That would have taken a lot of pressure off Brian.  What if "Its About Time" was a monster hit?  Or "Long Promised Road"?  What would have been Dennis' or Carl's reaction to the pressure to deliver a follow-up hit?  For, in spite of how many good songs the other brothers may have written, they never knew that same pressure that Brian always faced, that of "being the meal-ticket"...

Some of Dennis' friends say this was the exact train of thought that led Dennis to derail his own solo career in '77...

If a Dennis and/or Carl song would have been a hit, I wonder if they would have delayed the start of the oldies shows, and/or if Mike still would have been able to take control over the band towards the end of  the 70s?

My fantasy back in the late '70's was that Dennis would write a hit, Carl would write a hit, Brian would write a hit, Mike would have a series of nervous breakdowns and leave the group, and the band would re-name itself "BCD Wilson" and become cool...

I think it would've rejuvenated Brian somewhat. And feeling successful again, Carl and the rest of the guys probably wouldn't have seen the need to refresh the band with "new blood," so Ricky and Blondie probably wouldn't have entered the picture.

Sunflower was killed by its timimg.

If it were released in thr 1974-1976 time frame it would hve sold millions.

If it were a success in 1970 I don't know how it would have effected Brian given his illness.  I do suspect, though, that there would have been no "Surf's-Up", CATP or Holland and that Blondie and Ricky never would ahve become Beach Boys.

I disagree a little, Sunflower died IMO because the BB were as cool as...Doris Day in 1970. In a the year where CSNY was huge something like The Beach Boys just seemed square and unhip. Really, can you blame people with one look at the Sunflower cover.

On the other hand, when they had songs like "Slip On Through" and "It's About Time" and "Forever," with the right counter-culture promotion they could've been decent hits...but what do they release as a single? "Tears in the Morning". Mind-boggling if you ask me. What I'm getting as is I think Dennis was fairly in tune to 1970 radio but never was given good promotion or the chance to break out. Every time I hear "Slip on Through," I think 'man that's cool, that should've been on the radio a lot!'

Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower Sunflower

"All I Wanna Do," "This Whole World," and "It's About Time" scream counter-culture to these ears. Granted I wasn't around at that time, but they definitely sound of the era. As much as Warner promoted the album I think they missed out on that angle.

Speaking of Sunflower, when it was reviewed, someone said it was the Sgt. Pepper of beach boys albums......anyone care to explain how they're alike to me?

HA! I love it. Mike Love is a tool.

IAT was the only thing close to "counter culture" at the time. That, along with CCW and surprisingly ASM got decent airplay, but it didn't help sell the album. It just wasn't their time yet. After Big Sur, things started turning around for their live act.

Uhhh, OK.

Anyways, I thought the band thought of Sunflower as the most group democratic, least Brian-centric/responsible at that time album?  Maybe it was just Bruce?

I think the statement was made in a British review, and rather than saying that the albums were alike, it was saying that this was the BB's magnum opus and it was very eclectic - like the Sgt. Pepper album was to the Beatles.

Never was too crazy about sunflower.  Just a few songs.   Maybe half.  I wonder sometimes how the band might have evolved without the drugs and the feeling that they needed to be hip and individuals as artists.......

Would they have done better......made better music....or would they have become even more passe' even quicker.....and lost the mythology they have otherwise garnered these past couple or three decades?

..i would have sh*t my pants from shear delight, if sunflower had been a hit. back then i lived and breathed anything beach boys. took a lot of sh*t from a lot of people liking them then. would have been in heaven if i saw sunflower high on the lp charts and all over the radio.

While Sunflower may have been a disappointment to a band with dozens of hits under its belt, I'm sure there were bands that would've killed to see their record even make it into the top 200, or on the charts at all. At least it was a bigger hit in Europe.

Interesting.

An even better thought I often think about is "what if the beach boys FULLY got behind Brian and gave him the support he needed from Pet Sounds on?"

imagine...

makes me crazy wondering the possibilities. imagine them all helping him and pitching in, taking stress off, recognizing him for the genius that he is.

Also, think about the impact having a studio right in your home had on Brian... anytime he ventured downstairs, there was that pressure of "Brian's coming, let's get him to work on some new material"... no wonder he stayed in his room as much as possible...

Some of us think that is what happened, the Boys fully gave Brian their support even when his demands seemed crazy or humiliating to them.

Another way to think of the home studio is think of the freedom it gave Brian and the responsibilities it relieved him of and how it allowed him to do what he wanted when he wanted without hassle and it was his choice.  I don't doubt he regretted his choice because of the intrusion [and Marilyn's understandable discomfort] but I doubt he regretted it because it increased his productivity. He took full advantage of that freedom to be productive in that first year. IMO.

being a beach boys fan is frustrating, but I wouldn't have it any other way...too many "what if" scenarios.... ???

Hey, me too!  No one I played it for back in 1970 had anything negative to say about the album.  Many said they really liked the music on Sunflower, but some seemed surprised that The Beach Boys were still making music. Unfortunately, most people didn't consider the Beach Boys to be hip back then, so many simply ignored or were unaware of what they were doing.  

But Sunflower has withstood the test of time, and that's worth a hell of a lot to me.  It initially stayed in print for almost 10 years, is regarded as one of the Beach Boys finest, made the Rolling Stone list of the Top 500 albums of all time, and was recently rereleased on vinyl.  Yes, it was disheartening to see Sunflower practically ignored back in 1970 - 71, but the fact that it is so highly regarded today makes me feel vindicated that so many others now also recognize the sheer musical brilliance found in my favorite album of all time.

Agree to disagree... ;D. I think "All I Wanna Do" blasting at full volume and a "J" ( :smokin) would definitely sway your opinion however...

No doubt Brian would have had a bigger hand in the following couple of records if Sunflower had hit it big. I think the difference is the mindframe Brian had to the rest of the band at the time. Each flop seemed to spur the band on and make them more determined to succeed in the future while lack of sales disillusioned Brian more and more till he just couldn't face doing it anymore.

I do wonder how Surf's Up would have differed creatively if Sunflower had sold? Surf's Up is my all time favourite record btw. It could only have been improved if the Dennis stuff hadn't been yanked off. Not sure if there was room on the album for anymore BW to be honest.

Weren't the BBs always that way? Surfing and cars seems cheesy to us now, but that was hip at the time and no more alien to the BBs for the most part at the time than the themes they would explore later on. If anything, the BBs seemed more honest as time went on. Pet Sounds is Brian's personality 100%, and so is Friends.  Songs like "This Whole World", too.  Aside from a few of Mike and Al's efforts in the early 70s, I don't see any of the BBs acting particularly unnatural.

Brian would have regained his confidence and done something like the Polyphonic Spree back in the 70s...

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