The Smiley Smile Message Board

I'd say that Jan & Dean and The Beach Boys had an equal role in terms of developing what we know as the California Sound. As Mark A. Moore points out in the introduction to his book, Jan Berry had been producing West Coast pop hits since 1958, whereas The Beach Boys didn't start until the end of 1961. But aside from Jan Berry's production chops, I've always wondered if Brian Wilson had heard some of Jan & Dean's songs, specifically those that utilized Torrence's falsetto, and took inspiration from them. Dean Torrence had began to sing with his signature falsetto with songs like "Baby Talk", "Barbara Ann", and most notably, "Linda". The last song, in my opinion, is one the earliest examples of what we know call the California Sound. Lead falsetto vocal, harmony stack, and the Wrecking Crew in full effect. We know that Brian's biggest influence to use falsetto was The Four Freshman, but I can't help but think that Jan & Dean, and specifically Dean Torrence's falsetto voice, influenced his arrangements.

Nah. I think it was the Four Freshman and the Four Seasons that did more for Brian's falsetto.

In my opinion...It is really a stretch to think that Jan & Dean were equal to the Beach Boys in any way, shape or form. J&D were a very minor blip on the cultural and artistic history of popular music, while the Beach Boys are GIANTS and in many ways in a class of their own. One eye-popping bit of evidence is that Jan & Dean had four LP's by the end of 1965 that had made the top 40, those four totaled 10 weeks (not each) but ten total weeks in the top 40. That's their career. By comparison...The Beach Boys had ten LP's by the end of '65 that had made the top 40, not THAT many more than J&D's four, BUT their ten totaled 196 weeks in the top 40, and they kept going with hundreds more weekly top 40 appearances in their future. Beach Boys 300+ appearances in the weekly top 40 of album sales, Jan and Dean 10. It's a gargantuan difference in sales and popularity. You might say, oh well, Jan & Dean were a singles band, you can check those numbers too and they are not close to being in the same league as the Beach Boys singles success. The truth is the people who bought records and went to concerts didn't really care very much for Jan & Dean when compared to the Beach Boys. It was a very unequal perception and reaction from consumers of music. So to say they were equal in developing a much loved sound that captured the world's attention and is still loved nearly everywhere just can't be true IMO. Jan & Dean had some success, they had some influence, they left a minor mark. The Beach Boys are among the greatest popular phenomenas and creative well springs the world has ever seen.

FILE UNDER: "Freddie Cannon"

I wasn’t too impressed with my (limited) exposure to Jan and Dean. A few of the songs I thought were ok but nothing really moved me

Nice BW side project! ;)

The only "Jan & Dean" I can even bear to listen to is post-accident Jan.
Fascinating stuff. "Natural High" -- I'm THERE.
That said -- I love READING about Jan Berry -- Mark's book was brilliant on every level. I devoured it. Incredible.
If only I could stomach their music.

I've really never understood ANY part of the allure of Jan & Dean's music. In my opinion during the most brilliant, groundbreaking decade in rock they were instantly out of date, shockingly unoriginal, tone-deaf, and supremely uncool. Silly gooses in the shadow of BRINGING IT ALL BACK HOME.

The only thing I can compare it to is in Beatles circles, how there are always a few dudes in the shadows who are REALLY, REALLY into Gerry Marsden or Billy J.
This is that.

Buffoon jock rock.
What a weird fetish.

One thing you can't deny is Jan Berry's impact on Brian's productions. There's a huge difference in production quality from before and after Jan and Brian got in the studio together. Brian has even said that he learned a lot from watching Jan produce.

I didn't like Jan & Dean's music too much, until I began to dig a little bit deeper. For those who think they just made silly rock music, listen to songs like "When It's Over", "A Surfer's Dream", and "You Really Know How To Hurt A Guy".

Y'know what -- I do deny it.
It was Spector.

Spector is right.

All this time I thought I was alone in feeling this way!

Jan was one of  the first producers Brian observed working. Brian learnt about overdubbing from observing Jan Berry. More importantly, he observed Jan working with session musicians. Being a producer is not just about creativity and music, it's about people management and organisatinal skills. Seeing as Jan had a reputation for being nice to work for and Spector did not, I would say that Brian learnt this side of things from Berry.

Brian did not develop in a vacuum, by all accounts in the early days he was a sponge, soaking everything in. To say that Berry didn't have an influence on Brian as a mentor and early teacher is disingenious. 

And putting aside their music and cultural positioning, J&Ds music has an extremely polished sound. You don't hear that sort of clarity in instruments and particlarly drums in many recordings of that era. He played the studio well, particularly with overdubbing. Very similar to how Brian was putting stuff together in 63 - 64. Listen to the Fun Fun Fun sessions.

Far more Berry than Spector.

Spector didn't overdub all the instruments. 

Double tracking vocals as well. I'm not saying Berry invented the technique, but it was from Berry Brian first observed the practice that went on to define the Beach Boys sound as much, if not more than what he learnt from Spector.

Jan Berry was a huge influence on Brian Wilson as a producer.

So much to learn.  From Berry, Spector, many others. But then there is the measuring and accounting in the mind in a way that is unique…and perhaps genius. That goes for arranging and producing and especially to the creation of melody. It may be that the most important influence on Brian…to this day…is the melody of “When You Wish Upon a Star.” The fleeting shapes and impulses therein. Then the unique geometry of his brain matter going further. Never to be explained fully. I often think of how Brian’s vocalizing in “Don’t Worry Baby” will always be the best version—the correct version. As when Sinatra would make a Rodgers and Hart song his own. As in “that’s how it must be done.”  For the artist, being “influenced” involves recognizing what one desires/accepts as well as what one does not desire/accept. Sumpin like dat.

I think part of the thing with trying to wring some huge influence on the BBs out of J&D is that it speaks to the penchant many have for trying to frame something in a larger sense than is needed.

Not everything has to influential, game-changing, first-of-its-kind, etc.

There are some of those Beatles knock-off bands from the 60s that I occasionally enjoy listening to (although not coincidentally it's usually cases where they're recording some Lennon-McCartney castaway deemed not-good-enough for the Beatles).

I dig some J&D records as well. But it stops there. I was kind of excited a decade or so back when they put out that 2-disc set of Liberty singles, because I frankly didn't have much J&D beyond the old Capitol single-disc hits set. I couldn't get through it. I kept going back to the same core hits we all know, and the rest of the stuff was goofy and/or uninteresting.

Probably more grating for me is watching old J&D performance footage. They *always* have a look on their face like they started a music career for s**ts and giggles. Jan often has a smirk on his face like the whole thing is a joke.

Jan and Dean never took themselves too seriously, but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.

And certainly Brian was influenced to some degree by Jan in particular.  Jan was making hits before Brian, and they hung out in the early days - I don't see how Brian could help but be influenced.  The Dean falsetto, not so much...

Billy, I'm thrilled to hear you agree with me! I've been thinking this for years.

I seriously felt alone in this for a long time. I actually thought the issue was with me for not getting it. Hey Jude summed up my feelings rather well.

One correction: Brian Wilson did not learn about overdubbing from Jan Berry. He was stacking his own vocals, often in Freshmen-style harmony, back in the Hawthorne music room and bedroom after Murry got him a reel-to-reel. Some of those tapes even survived, like the "Happy Birthday Freshmen" or whatever that was called. That's an example of Brian overdubbing on tape before he set foot in a pro studio or watched Jan Berry in a studio.

I'm confused as to what you guys agree on...

Now I'm confused :lol

I took it that you were agreeing with Jon and Howie. I think Nate thought you were agreeing with his original post. Which, yeah, I guess is a little awkward.  :lol

Yeah, I'm not sure why one would think Brian would need to learn the basic concept of "overdubbing" from Jan Berry or anyone else. The moment he owned a sound-on-sound style tape recorder, he would have understood (and indeed executed) the basic concept of overdubbing.

Yeah I was indeed agreeing with them :lol

I was talking with Brian one time and we were discussing the winding down of Pet Sounds and the post-production of the album prior to release. I asked him what he remembered about Jan's accident, which was concurrent with Brian wrapping the project, and he couldn't remember ANY particulars: who told him, where he was, etc. Now, yes, it was then-40 years prior -- but Brian said, "Yeah, I remember hearing about it, but I don't actually remember it happening." I say this because there's this kind of decades-long BB fan revisionist theory that Brian and Jan were in some type of race, or that Brian deemed this guy a professional peer -- and it's just not true. I'm not saying that Brian didn't consider Jan a friend, but Jan Berry was VERY far off Brian Wilson's creative radar -- just another in a VERY long line of marginally talented dudes putting out crappy product via the outmoded label and studio system. To believe any different is to suspend reality. Read the stats that Stebbins posted.

And I think sometimes by trying to hold an artist (or a particular work) up to some epic hugely-influential status does a disservice to that artist/material as well.

There are plenty of people from that era who made a cool record, or wrote a good song (or several), who absolutely deserve recognition. But it's more like "They wrote and recorded that single, that was a good single. I like that one", as opposed to making it like Brian was vacillating between Jan&Dean and the Beatles when looking at true peers.

It's like calling a good movie "the most amazing movie ever!", where then the reaction is going to be "well c'mon, it's not the most amazing ever, it's just pretty good", when if you come away saying "I liked that movie, that was a good one", then people can commiserate on how it's a good one.

It reminds me of people who say Emitt Rhodes was more talented than Paul McCartney. No. He made one *really great* album, and two okay albums, none of which measured up to McCartney's greatest work. But man, that first Emitt Rhodes album is REALLY good. Dude knocked out a little pop mini-masterpiece. Let's talk about it like that instead of saying his stuff was better than the White Album and Abbey Road.

Great post. I agree entirely. Several years back I wrote a “defense of mediocrity “ or something, probably on The Record Room, dealing with some of those ideas. It actually might be somewhere here, too.

That reminds me of being at a party years ago, and somebody asked a friend of mine -- "Hey do you listen to Jan & Dean?" and my buddy said, "Nah, but believe me, I listen to plenty of OTHER shitty music."

:lol

I'm trying to remember how or when it started happening, but there seemed to be a lot of over-inflating of Jan & Dean and specifically how it related to Brian and the Beach Boys to the point where it didn't serve Jan or Dean anything to keep reading absurdities about Brian stealing his production ideas from Jan or whatever else was being said. And I also remember reading a discussion or argument that "Jan And Dean Meet Batman" was on par with if not a direct influence on what Brian was doing with Smile. That one always makes be laugh because it's absurd, but I digress.

Ultimately, and not to take away from J&D, take a look at their bigger hits or the ones most people today would name if asked, and on several of the most familiar Brian was directly involved. Brian was a better songwriter.

Production wise, I thought Brian's records had more punch and were very "full sounding", yet didn't mask or bury certain key elements in the mix, especially mixing in mono for AM radio. Some of Jan's techniques to my ears at least were trying to load too much sound onto the tape and losing some of the punch in the process. Spector and Levine's "Wall" obviously had that punch too but was done in different elements and textures. That's just me.

But if anything was an influence, especially vocals and falsetto, it was The Four Freshmen with Bob Flanigan singing falsetto, not Dean. You hear some of those classic Freshmen records from the 50's, it's too obvious to even argue where Brian got his influence in terms of group vocals and arrangements. Obvious enough with just a single listen, even the falsetto has the same character in the voice as Brian would later apply on BB's records.

I love how lots of BB fans love getting the opportunity to throw shade at J&D.  To make a pro wrestling analogy it reminds me of how Andre the Giant used to bully Big John Studd and other big men backstage in the WWF.  

I've always enjoyed Jan & Dean as being into satire way before it was a thing.  The DGAF-ness of a lot of their output charms the hell out of me, though in these more PC times it hasn't worn well, understandably.  They have moments ("Submarine Races" and a lot of BATMAN) that are flat-out hysterical, and it helps that they are firmly in on the joke.

Also full props to Jan for being a wunderkind in the studio.  A lot of those productions are quite impressive particularly considering Jan was a medical student at the time.  That said I'm gonna pile on a bit because I've often found his compositions sound very forced and unorganic.  Some of the chord changes he favors - those jarring modulations that come out of nowhere, chord changes that just leap from one place to another without any logical link to one another - are certainly interesting but they never strike me as being very musical.  They often seem haphazard, as opposed to when Brian would go into a different key on a bridge and the hairs would stand up on the back of your neck, and you knew darn well that was by design (not all of them, mind you - "Little Old Lady From Pasadena"'s key shifts are sublime).  I don't know if that makes any sense - it just feels sort of like music made by a brilliant student in a composition class, as opposed to an actual musician, in terms of how the music is put together.  Some of the orchestrations feel that way as well.  I'm probably not making any sense.

I probably rate Jan & Dean slightly higher than most of the folks on this thread but I also firmly agree that their influence has been overstated.

It all goes back to what I mentioned in my previous post, which is that it's doing J&D a disservice to try to overinflate their output or influence.

I think we're seeing a bit of shade because it's being posited that J&D were a major, noteworthy influence on Brian, and/or that J&D are being referenced in any way as a peer on the same level as Brian or the BBs.

I don't think we'd see any shade if someone just mentioned that J&D had some good songs.

I file the "Jan and Dean and the Beach Boys were peers" argument in the same general category as the "Derek Taylor secretly slipped the Beatles 'Smile' tapes in 1967" argument.

I don't see J&D as some helpless dog being kicked by BB fans. If anything, they've been prominently regarded to the point of eating up pages in ESQ over the years, etc.

I would imagine that J&D satire/humor works for some folks. It has never worked for me. It has always come across to me more as a "don't give a s**t" attitude rather than clever satire or humor.

Nailed it, Jude.

The Beach Boys had only ONE peer -- The Beatles.
To rate the idiocy of Carnival Of Sound to, say, REVOLVER is absurd.

I'm not saying DON'T listen to Jan & Dean's dork rock comedy LP's, but seriously -- go get high, have sex, CREATE something.
Or just listen to BRIAN WILSON and leave the novelty stuff to the out-of-touch 8-year-olds in 1964.

I love J and D's singles and some of the deep cuts from that era (my favorite J and D song is "Anaheim, Asuza, & Cucumonga Sewing Circle, Book Review..."). Yet, as much as I tried, I don't really get the rock satirist vibe that their partisans push. Frank Zappa did rock satire much better than Jan Berry did.

I think Jan gets singled out as a Brian influence because he, unlike Spector, didn't completely blow Brian off.

I'd think it's safe to say that I like Jan and Dean more than does Howie! 

Whatever one thinks of the direct influence, Brian and and J&D worked together. Brian didn't collaborate with many other songwriters or producers, so the fact he did so with those guys should mean something to the larger history of both groups' careers. Clearly J&D were part of the scene, and they were friendly and attractive folks to know.

I must have missed that in all the books. Now have mental image though which will haunt me forever.

I don't totally get the territorial parts of this thread.  I think there is room for most perspectives to be accommodated. 

I think that you can probably nail down a half dozen or so "direct influences" on Brian as he was mastering his craft and fully realizing what he would become.  Spector, Freshmen, etc.  I think Jan Berry was probably at the bottom of that list- like 5% compared to FF's and Beatles' 30%.  Or whatever, just making a gross estimate.  Nonetheless to even be on that list is super impressive.

When I compare the two now it is like comparing Gilligan's Island to Mr. Ed.  But maybe to experience both in the present rather than past sense, the gulf wouldn't have seemed as big as it does now and Mr. Ed wouldn't look so primitive.  Just a thought.

It's sort of the BB version of how metal / hard rock elitists throw shade at the cynically so-called hair metal bands. 

There was a relatively specific theory/thesis proposed in the original post; not just a "is J&D as good as the BBs?" sort of thing.

You have now numerous experts/biographers/writers who have studied this stuff and interviewed Brian and the actual BBs, including specifically asking about Jan Berry, telling you that any significant influence on Brian from Jan, and any significant implication that the two men or two bands were true peers, is vastly overstated.

Not that it's non-existent, but just that it's a minor blip in the overall story. Brian was friends with Jan to some degree, and they co-wrote a few tunes together. I'm sure Brian listened to J&D records back then. I'm sure he pulled, in some sense, all sorts of things from the whole spectrum of what he listened to. And, knowing Jan and co-writing stuff with him, what he drew from J&D was of course more significant than some random record he may have listened to back then.

But in the pantheon of huge, noteworthy influences during the 60s pop/rock music scene, there has occasionally been a bit of an overblown supposition put forth by some that, at least in those formative years, Jan and Brian were equals/peers and/or that Brian drew heavily from Jan's work. I don't believe this is the case.

These alleged/supposed influences should be assessed and reassessed from time to time to make sure an inaccurate narrative isn't taking hold. For instance, take the Beatles and their digesting the work of Brian. Sometimes it's implied that all of the Beatles were influenced and heavily listened to a lot of Brian's work. But no, it's pretty much mostly McCartney, and it's mostly in relation to "Pet Sounds." It's not that simple, but a narrative that suggests that like George Harrison was listening endlessly to the "All Summer Long" album is most likely pretty inaccurate (to use a hyperbolic example of course).

The most interesting tidbit in the story of the crossing paths of the two bands is probably Murry (supposedly) being pissed off that "Surf City" got to #1.

I'm not down for just kicking an artist unprompted, for no reason whatsoever. But has everyone here actually listened, say, to Jan and Dean's vocals? Jan was serviceable but kind of monotone, and Dean's "falsetto" was often Adrian Baker-status. As I've said before, they're *very lucky* they get as much attention being lumped in with the Beach Boys as they do.

Read through the J&D bio on AllMusic, and see if some of the claims or statements seem a little off.

https://www.allmusic.com/artist/jan-dean-mn0000213165/biography (https://www.allmusic.com/artist/jan-dean-mn0000213165/biography)

Just correcting and adding to Surf City - It was the song Surfin USA which Brian played for Jan and Dean, who said they wanted to record it. Brian said no because it was already slated for the Beach Boys to release. So he played them Surf City, which he had not finished but most of which was apparently there. Jan finished it up, and recorded it in March 1963. But by that time, Surfin USA had already come out that same month.

So in terms of a "chicken or the egg" scenario, Brian had already been contributing to J&D and had actually been paving the way for the type of music that would put J&D higher up on the charts.

It was after Jan met Brian and Brian started co-writing and contributing to the duo's songs (which included Brian's collaborators like Roger Christian) that they really found success beyond where they had been. So if there were an influence, Brian came into the mix and J&D started to have bigger hit records than they had before.

Man, I just don't get this thread at all. I've always been a fan of J&D. I consider "Dead Man's Curve" to be one of the greatest records ever made.

"Dead Man's Curve" being a good record (I dig it too) is a separate issue from framing whether Jan was a big influence on Brian.

The thread began with a theory/supposition/open question, and many are saying they disagree. It doesn't mean J&D fans should stop digging them.

Yes, in the process of discussing the relationship (or lack thereof) between Jan and Brian and between the two bands, some of us have also taken the opportunity to make more general comments about J&D's output. But I think it's still about providing more context. Having some good records isn't the same as being a true peer of the BBs and Brian, and there *has* been a general tone/tenor in some cases over the years in magazines, articles, and fan discussions that overemphasizes J&D in relation to Brian and the BBs and the influences involved.

It's good to use discussions like this to help correct some of the claims that have been made regarding Jan & Dean in terms of influence on Brian Wilson and/or The Beach Boys. Some of it has been overstated, and some of it just isn't 100% correct. Look at the most basic chart listings of Jan & Dean's releases on something even as simple as Wikipedia, and you'll see they did not start having big hit records until Brian Wilson got involved. Surf City was the breakthrough. The numbers do not lie. They literally 'rode the wild surf' onto the top 40 after the Beach Boys started charting hits about surf and hot rods and kicked that door open. The influence in terms of Brian liking how Jan cut records and watching some of the sessions is one thing, but the way in which some accounts have described it isn't as accurate as it could be.

Hasn't Brian himself gone on record saying that Jan Berry taught him how to cut clean sounding records? I think I've seen that claimed before, but I don't remember the actual quote and/or source.

guitarfool2002, I would disagree with your statement about Jan & Dean not having hits. "Jennie Lee", "Baby Talk", and "Linda" all were moderate hits. Jan had a knack for making great records, and I think he would have grown as a producer without Brian. Just my opinion though.

On the topic of Jan & Dean, I finally found this clip today, of the infamous gig with Mike, Bruce, Dean, David, and Glen and the football game. Pretty awesome footage, too bad they are miming. It seems to me like Glen was taking the lead on Surf City which is pretty cool . It's also pretty cool to see Glen Campbell playing Surf City, since he was one of the guitarists on the originial recording. Full circle moment. I think a Mike, Bruce, Dean, David, Glen combo would have made a great Post-Carl group. Al should have been there too! However, I think Mike & Bruce have done a fine job sporting The Beach Boys name since the late 90's. Especially now, with Mike's current group, they really do the name justice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-fhEwJ1q84&index=5&list=FLjLWTx2xziJVn8NZOaLBz5Q&t=0s

I found that '98 Super Bowl gig lame at the time, not even knowing the context, and in retrospect it's even harder to celebrate it considering it was literally the signpost to Al being sh**canned from the band.

With Dean performing with Mike throughout the 80's and 90's, I wonder if he was invited to be part of Mike's Beach Boys, and perhaps turned it down because he was still touring with Jan until 2004.

That '98 clip is horrific.
LITERALLY the last thing that could/should/would be considered cool by cool people.

I'd even go so far as to say, that's EXACTLY how you ruin a brand.
I'm glad things shaped up because that could be as lame as this thing ever got.

I dunno.. that nascar thing was pretty awful as well

To me the weirdest thing about that clip is that Carl Wilson was still alive at the time.

You didn't have to look at NASCAR.

Plus it was the last time BW saw Carl alive....

Al was quoted in interviews in the subsequent year or two or so that he felt Mike just refused to let up at all, to take a break whatsoever.

What other band of that stature would have a core original member get a pretty dire cancer diagnosis, only to have that member continue on tour as long as they could, but then once that member got too sick (and presumably not known to be permanently off the road at that point), just continue on, shedding additional original members in the process. No break. None. The only break Mike kinda took was when he went a few months without a license to use the BB name and could only get sporadic bookings as "California Beach Band."

But yeah, presentation wise/musically, Mike owes a ton to Scott Totten. It ain't C50, but Totten made it professional and with a baseline level of quality.

Plus basically kicking the cancer stricken member out of the band by refusing to tour with them....

So check out the timeline on this, if you believe Wikipedia and Billboard:
-early January 1963 BBs record Surfin USA
-Brian hangs out with Jan and Dean, I assume after its recorded but I guess it could be before its recorded.  He plays them Surfin USA on the piano and they want it, they later agree that J&D take Surf City cause Brian wasn't going to do anything with it.
-Sometime later Jan collaborates w/Brian to finish the song. 
-Surfin USA is released as a single on March 6th. 
-Surf City is recorded on March 20th, a few days before Surfin USA even enters the charts at number 74 on March 23rd.
-Surfin USA the album is released on March 25th.
-Surf City is released on May 17th.  Surfin USA the single was at #4, and this was the BBs first top ten record. 

They certainly benefited from the success that the BBs were having but I think to portray them as riding coattails or a door that was already kicked open goes too far in the other direction.

Look at any site that lists the Beach Boys and Jan And Dean discographies. All you need to do is look at the numbers.

To sum up, The Beach Boys from 1962 to 64 had five albums chart in the top-10 out of seven they released (Surfin Safari peaked at 32 in'62, Shut Down v2 #13 in '63). Jan and Dean released seven albums in that same time, not one of them charted top-10 or came close, and the closest to even breaking top-20 was "Drag City", peaked at 22 on Billboard.

The Beach Boys from 62-64 had seven top-10 singles chart. Two more broke the top-20.

Jan and Dean had a total of six top-20 singles starting with "Surf City" which hit #1, four out of them made it top-10.

Of Jan And Dean's six top-20 singles, Brian Wilson was involved in writing *four* of them. And the man who Brian brought into the world of songwriting via Murry calling him after hearing an on-air discussion of hot rodding, Roger Christian, was the cowriter of the other two top-20 hits for J&D.

So Jan and Dean had a dry spell of several years with no substantial chart success, albums or singles, until Brian Wilson got involved in the music, along with Roger Christian who would not have been writing songs at all if not for Brian and Murry contacting him. After Brian wasn't involved in their music, Jan and Dean failed to chart either a top 10 or top 20 album or single for the next few years up to Jan's accident. Nothing at all charted near where it had in 63-64 with BW and Roger involved in the records.

Who exactly was leading the pack, setting the pace, opening up those doors in the industry to help get record labels behind this kind of music coming out of sunny California? It wasn't Jan Berry. The numbers don't lie.

(Edited for corrections)

True.

Your argument jumps around too much.  You started out talking about Surf City being the "breakthrough" and them riding Brian's surf onto the top 40 after he "kicked the door open".  I showed pretty clearly that the door wasn't "kicked open" when all those machinations went down.  Now you're talking about something totally different to make your point.

You also talk about Jan and Dean having a lack of success prior to Brian's involvement.  You need to place it historically with two important points. 
One was that between 1959 and 1962 there really weren't big rock and roll bands.  Even someone as well-known as Chuck Berry, who released singles the whole time, went from March 1958's Johnny B Goode to May 1964's No Particular Place To Go without sniffing any sort of single success.  It looks like he released like 20 singles and a bunch didn't even chart.  Others would have some success but not really sustained, and ballads dominated the charts.
Two, therefore, is that in this landscape rock bands tended to have regional success and there is nothing wrong with that.  And Jan and Dean would have counted as a strong regional band- after their initial top ten success in 1958 they got up to the mid-20s a few times (including the single right before Surf City).  Prior to Surfin USA I think you'd probably count the BBs in the "strong regional but not yet national" band category. 

I totally agree that J&D generally co-opted "surf" to facilitate bigger success, but at that time "surf" wasn't established as the "Brian trope" as how you think of it today- Brian's canon was equally occupied with the tender love songs that Jan and Dean absolutely shared in, along with the various "goofy" songs that they also had in common.  In fact, prior to "Brian's breakthrough" with Surfin' USA, "surf" music was known as Ventures/Dick Dale-style stuff - a "regional" music.  Brian's version of surf songs trended more towards "a youngster's take on the Four Freshmen singing about surfing" - Surfin', Luau, Safari sound like that to me - or album-filling instrumentals like Moon Dawg resembling the Dick Dale style of the genre.  Brian would soon better align its format to include more of the guitars and less of the Frosh, and that would help it really make its great impact.  Jan probably thought it was going to be a really good idea and made sure he got in on it too.

Jumps around too much? How more simple is it to look at the discography of both groups and see who was doing it first and having success - in terms of the type of music that was coming out of California from 62 onward? The fact that the Beach Boys went national and were charting both albums and singles centered around surfing, hot rods, and also the more introspective material and ballads before Jan Berry decided to do records based on surfing and hot rods says most of what needs to be said.

Jan had one hit back in the late 50's. Until he went for the surf theme with a song Brian Wilson gave him, and after the Beach Boys were getting the surf and hot rod themes to go national and garner attention in the industry as something that was commercially viable and which the kids were buying and liking, Jan had no significant success up to Surf City.

And as I said clearly, all of Jan's biggest hits had the involvement of either Brian Wilson or the guy Brian brought into the scene, Roger Christian. After Brian and Roger were out of the picture, Jan didn't have a single hit of any significance over the next 2-3 years, unlike Brian and the Beach Boys.

If you want to argue that Jan Berry was the one people in the industry were following and the one who was opening the doors for a new kind of music and sound, I'd say that's simply incorrect.

It's as factual as the movie bio of Jan and Dean where they have a completely bogus scene showing Jan getting the idea to write a song about surfing, then going into the studio with session musicians to cut the song "Surfin". Click on this link to see that revisionism for yourself: https://youtu.be/FRrwhEF1czc?t=19m33s (https://youtu.be/FRrwhEF1czc?t=19m33s)

Revisionism is fine I guess in a TV movie bio where people watching think Jan not only wrote "Surfin" but also had the inspiration for doing so, but if you can't see that Jan and Dean didn't get any significant chart success after 1959 or whatever until they got songs from Wilson and Christian about surfing and hot rods, which the Beach Boys had already laid the groundwork for on previous albums and singles, you're not seeing the facts. And after Wilson and Christian were out, Jan didn't have a successful album or single anywhere near the period after Surf City, despite releasing a steady run of singles and albums.

Ironically the only time Jan and Dean would hit top 10 after 1964 was when Dean made a cameo appearance doubling Brian's falsetto on Barbara Ann, and it went top 5.

So who was setting the pace? Who did it first? Who was the industry looking at during these years? Again, it was not Jan Berry. Just look at the facts.

Yes, but Jan Berry had a significant impact on Brian's development. Brian says it himself, that Jan taught him how to cut clean records, in this video --- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTf2MehizWI&t=322s

There's a very clear difference in production quality from before and after Brian became involved with Jan. Surfin Safari sounds very dull and lacklaster compared to Surfin USA, which had cleaner vocals and tighter backing tracks. I'm not proposing the idea that Jan invented surf music, but Jan definitely helped develop the sound.

In my personal opinion, Jan Berry produced much better rock n' roll records that Brian Wilson did. Of course, Jan couldn't pull of a Good Vibrations or God Only Knows (although, he did come close with You Really Know How To Hurt A Guy and When It's Over). But his rock songs, such as Surf City, Ride The Wild Surf, Sidewalk Surfin, Anaheim, among many others all have much more intense rocking backing tracks. Brian's Catch A Wave sounds groovy, but Jan's Sidewalk Surfin is filled with pure excitement and adrenaline. And whereas Brian was always telling Denny to cool it on the drums, Jan had two drummers playing at the same time for an extra punch!!

At the end of the day, I'll always take Brian Wilson over Jan Berry. I'll take All I Wanna Do or Here Today over Bucket T or A Surfer's Dream. With that being said, Brian and Jan's stories are pretty interconnected, and they both had great influences on eachother. I don't think either of them would deny that. Of course Jan did jump on the surf craze, but so did Brian, to be fair. Brian wasn't the first person ever to write a song about surfing.

As for me thinking Jan's rock music was better, listen to "Anaheim, Azusa And Cucamonga Sewing Circle, Book Review And Timing Association" by Jan & Dean, and tell me that's not one of the most exhilarating backing tracks you've ever heard.

I'll be the first to tell you: "Anaheim, Azusa And Cucamonga Sewing Circle, Book Review And Timing Association" by Jan & Dean is not one of the most exhilarating backing tracks I've ever heard.

Lousy, dork, conservative, '60s variety TV music.
I'm amazed (every time) that this dung is even mentioned in the same breath as The Beach Boys & Wilson-Love music.

Never heard it but that title doesn’t make me want to hurry up and check it out

I also want to add this in response to Jan Berry's work and career. Jan Berry was a dude who was able to work the system and charm his way into deals -- because as spelled out so succinctly by Guitarfool -- the non-Wilson product was in no way enough to land him much of anything -- but his charisma was. A great looking rich kid who got into the system before everybody figured out what the f uck was going on. The old guard probably thought he was the epitome of hip. I think his accident and brain damage enabled him in some ways to save face, because in light of all the massive musical events and shifts of 1967, his career would've ended up EXACTLY as it did. This way the fact that NOBODY was thinking of Jan & Dean as anything other than a punchline, could be blamed on his maladies rather than his (and Dean's) lack of talent. Sure, this guy could (supposedly) notate on a page, but the music was devoid of magic or commercial appeal (and not because he was so ahead of his time -- it always sounded physically "written" rather than felt, composed, and then transposed.)


This guy belonged in the black and white '50s. There was no place for Jan Berry in color.

I'd also counter that the Beach Boys and Brian cut much better "Rock and Roll" records than Jan whose records IMO never seem to find a comfortable groove. I just listened to Dead Man's Curve and besides the lazy and flat lead vocal which really distracts from the underlying track, if you can get past that and listen to what's happening, it isn't very rock and roll. It sounds like two confused drummers stumbling through a soulless arrangement, and competing with a high-school marching band for artistic space. The theme of DMC is GREAT. A throwback to '50's tragedy songs, which is a nostalgic vibe that Jan perfectly understood. BUT...Rock and Roll IS exactly what Brian, Dennis, Carl and David played on Surfin Safari and 409, that is the garage ROCK with a dirty, slinky, surging, grungy vibe. It's not bombastic like Jan's attempts to load the baked potato with too much chili and cheese, it's stripped down, primitive and cool. I think if we asked Chuck Berry which is closer to rock and roll, the blazing, thrilling, electric simplicity of Fun Fun Fun, or the audio traffic jam of Jan's version of "rock", It's an obvious choice. Does anyone here prefer the typically clunky J&D version (I'm talking studio as the live ones are too embarrassing and unfair) of Little Old Lady From Pasadena to the Beach Boys punk rock BB's Concert version? It's a good comparison of simple and fun teenage rock and roll (BB's) vs. something with the dork dial cranked up that parents would think is "cute". 

I just never cared for their stuff overall. Keep in mind too that I’m more of a fan of the 66-72 time period of the BB than I am of anything before(or after but that’s beside the point). In fact, and I may have shared this story here, with a few exceptions, growing up I thought The Beach Boys were lame and compared them to “groups like the Four Seasons and Jan and Dean”. I actually became a fan of Brian as a person before his music (of course I’m a diehard). So this is nothing new at all for me.



By the way, this doesn’t mean I’m not a fan of the earlier BB hits now! Just took me a while

Yep.

Put the "Wrecking Crew" in Brian Wilson's hands and you get majesty.
With Jock Jan they never didn't sound like 51-year-olds playing in a gym, dressed like bio teachers with horned-rims, slacks, and a mortgage in North Hollywood.

This is a true story: YEARS ago somebody played me that "You Really Know How To Hurt A Guy" tune. It was so bad that I immediately thought it was done POST-accident. I said, "Wow, for someone who was in a coma for, like two months, this is pretty good!" Then the guy had to explain it was from BEFORE the accident -- (y'know, the same period as all those brilliant competitive singles PACKED with love from John Sebastian, The Rascals, Simon & Garfunkel, Mamas & The Papas, The Association, etc.)

Wow, a "traffic jam" is the last way I'd describe Jan's arrangements. Especially Deadman's Curve. I think his arrangements were absolutely brilliant. They had a great feel and punch. As for Jan being a charmer, I'd 100% give him that, and I would agree that's what got his foot in the door. I can't believe that someone could listen to Ride The Wild Surf and not have their breath taken away. That song has an incredible arrangement. And it's not a myth that Jan could notate. Take a look at Mark Moore's book and you'll see plenty of Jan's hand written arrangements.

As for not liking Jan & Dean, everyone has their own taste. I actually like Jan & Dean's music more than the Beach Boys until BW did Today! and that's when he surpassed Jan. There are obvious gems from the 61-64 period that I couldn't go without- In My Room, Warmth Of The Sun, All Summer Long, come to mind right now- but I love the fun of Jan's music. Jennie Lee, Baby Talk, White Tennis Sneakers, Linda, Surf City, Drag City, Shlock Rod, Surfin Hearse, Drag Strip Girl, etc... all just bring a smile to my face. There's something about their music just captured some sort of magic. Maybe just my opinion. I also love Dean's humbleness. He's very similar to Al Jardine in that way.

I'm not surprised by the lack of enthusiasm for J&D, their singing and songs could be very clunky. In my opinion, they're an acquired taste. I think that Jan & Dean could both sing very well when they wanted to, and I'll post examples if anyone wants to hear, but in my mind, their music was more about the emotion than perfection. Another track that comes to mind is When It's Over. This is my alltime favorite J&D record. Sure, the singing isn't perfect, but like Bob Dylan or David Bowie for example, Jan perfectly captured the feeling of the song, and delivered it with his voice.

I could go and on forever about Jan & Dean... They're my second favorite group to The Beach Boys. I think citing Jan's accident as the reason for their current status is a little inappropriate, considering it was a life threatening accident. I would say the same about talking about Brian or Dennis that way, with all of their issues.

Anyway, listen to "It's A Shame To Say Goodbye" from Jan's Pop Symphony album. He did this, as a full time medical student, with assistance from George Tipton, but with his leadership. It's a really impressive piece of work.

It's funny, I used to not like J&D. Mostly because of their vocals, and because I thought they were Beach Boys copy cats. But once I dug in, and learned about their history, and heard some deep cuts I began to love them. I recommend everyone here to do the same.

Frankly, I find the Jan bashing in this thread completely over the top. Was Jan as talented as Brian? Of course not. BW is a one of a kind talent. However, to basically say that Jan was some "dude" who only got somewhere because he was good looking and rich, and whose music was nothing without Brian Wilson, is ridiculous. As was mentioned, Jan had hits before Brian--Jennie Lee, Baby Talk, and Linda, to name three. And, if I'm not mistaken, Jan started using the wrecking crew long before Brian, and I believe was one of the people who showed Brian that you can use outside musicians to improve the sound of your records, which of course reached its fruition with Pet Sounds.

While I agree that the Beach Boys had a much rawer sound early on--I wouldn't go so far as to call it punk--Jan's productions from late 1962 through early 1964, for the most part, sound better than Brian's. Think about something like the instrumental break in "Don't Worry Baby." Maybe the most beautiful BB song, but that break is horrid. Now, the break doesn't detract from the quality of the song, but you can't really say that its a model of musicianship and production technique.

That brings up another issue, the fact that Jan always used top flight musicians, while Brian used mainly the other BB's early on. That gave the BB their raw, harder driving sound, but that sound had nowhere the polish that J&D records of the same period had. Now, "sound" doesn't mean "song." No Jan and Dean song comes close to the beauty of Surfer Girl, In My Room, etc. etc. Brian's songs are amazing, no matter the quality of the production. As a fan, I can enjoy both--the hard drive, melody and incomparable harmonies of early 1960s BB records, and the great, polished sound of J&D records. Obviously, by 1965 Brian had surpassed Jan in every way, and if you listen to Jan's productions in 1965 and 1966, they are not good, and seem stuck in 1963, without the same quality of music. We will never know what would have happened with Jan if he hadn't had the accident, but I imagine he would have become a producer, and worked mainly behind the scenes. Or, maybe gone to medical school and left music completely. I actually think the most beautiful music to come from Jan is post-accident, as there are several songs on Carnival of Sound--the title track, I Know My Mind, Girl You're Blowing My Mind, and even later stuff like Mother Earth--that I find to be better musically than anything he did pre-accident.

And, saying the BB's rocked, while Jan and Dean didn't, is absurd, especially as Brian--as shown by Summer Days and Pet Sounds, among others--rocked less and less the more sophisticated his productions became. I would argue that one of the reasons the BB's reputation suffered in late 1960s is because they completely eschewed the guitar-driven heavy sound that was popular. Basically, they didn't rock. If it is hypothesized that Jan and Dean were out of step with the music of 1967 and beyond--which I tend to believe would have been the case even if Jan hadn't had his accident--Brian and the BB's actually proved that they were out of step with those times, as demonstrated by poor album sales. Again, I am not criticizing the BB's music of the time, much of which is wonderful. But, you can't say that Jan and Dean were big nothings who would have disappeared in the psychedelic late 60s without acknowledging that the BB's in fact did disappear commercially during the time period.

Ultimately, I don't understand the need to pump the BB's and Brian up by tearing down other musicians. Brian Wilson is already widely celebrated as one of the greatest composers in modern pop history, while Jan Berry is a minor musicial footnote. However, minor doesn't mean bad, or that he had no influence at all on Brian, or that he was talentless and his records sucked. I LOVE the BB's, and LIKE Jan and Dean.

Falsetto, probably not.

Jan Berry, absolutely (as has been said, by Brian himself).

I do enjoy Jan & Dean's music but it's definitely not lost on me that most of their best songs were cowritten with Brian. Also, Save For a Rainy Day is my favourite of their albums and that has no Jan at all.

I  also agree that Jan's music can be more academic than Brian's (see Pop Symphony No. 1), and it mostly lacks the energy of The Beach Boys'. That said, check out something like Quasimoto, or even the aforementioned Ride the Wild Surf.

Next, I was one of the people positing that "Meet Batman" was a precursor to Smile (as a concept), but not in a meaningful way, just that there are parallels.

Lastly, who wore the horizontal-striped t-shirts first? (I've seen photos of Dean wearing the same ones that Brian sports in some of the Smile-era studio shots)

Save For A Rainy day is a fantastic record! Dean really came into his own with that. Very similar to what Dennis and Carl would do a few years later.

I think much of your post and especially your last paragraph misses the simple context that generated some fairly passionate opinions here. The "bashing" as you call it, is an at times tongue in cheek, but no less pointed illustration of our reaction to the absurdity of the Beach Boys and Jan & Dean being compared as equals, which some folks just seem to do over and over. You make a giant point of saying Jan wasn't as talented as Brian...your words... "Of course not".  Considering Nate's sentence that began this thread was "I'd say that Jan & Dean and The Beach Boys had an equal role in terms of developing what we know as the California Sound." I'll defend the Beach Boys against that opinion and other historical inaccuracies any time. It's what I do.

Jan & Dean was a NOVELTY act.
Bad shtick.

Amateur hour on every level.

Look at this.
If this gets you guys off, and doesn't embarrass you, nothing I can say is gonna sway you.
Where I come from we call this lame.

This is dummy pop and a rip-off of like 9 songs and getting it ALL wrong.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl4TAwggSKU

No officers of the Jan and Dean fan club in this thread. Ha ha ha ha BB just in another league overall than Jan and Dean but personally I like  Deadmans Curve, Little Old Lady, Ride the Wild Surf and Surf City more than anything on Surfin Safari and most of Surfin USA . Just my preference.

More proof that over-crediting Jan and Dean or Jan Berry in particular doesn't do them any favors. What I've had issues with is when I read comments both published and from regular people that take things which are simply not true and state them as if they read it or saw it somewhere so it must be the truth. Like seeing various comments through the years that Brian Wilson "stole" his ideas and sounds from Jan Berry.

It's simply not true.

But when you consider a TV movie bio came out roughly 40 years ago that had Jan getting an idea to write a song about surfing while carrying his board to the water, going into the studio with session players to record a song called "Surfin", followed by a scene where Jan, Dean, and a girl named Linda are driving a Vette as "Surfin Safari" comes on the radio and they start talking about how the Beach Boys stole the ideas or something after the girl thought it was J&D's song, a lot of people started believing that was the truth.

People believe crap like that if they see it on TV - sad but true. Same thing happened with "Summer Dreams" and "An American Family", which were presenting supposedly factual things that happened with the Beach Boys to fans which were off the charts absurd. That's the stuff that needs to be called out and corrected.

I would reply to specifics that were posted, but if someone calls any part of Don't Worry Baby "horrid" and claims it is an example of a lack of musicianship and production technique, that may be opinion which is fine. But I'd suggest getting some Q-Tips and listening again after a good ear cleaning session. It's one of the best crafted records of the 1960's if not of all time. It sounds beautiful, instruments and voices. But that's my opinion.

The music charts and numbers tell the story about Jan And Dean pretty well. But to keep seeing this revisionism, it's hard to understand not just where it's coming from but why it is being done.

Worth a last mention: Is it just me or is it odd that the name Phil Spector doesn't seem to come up here in this discussion about Brian's studio influence and his use of studio musicians when that is perhaps the most obvious influence on Brian making records using Spector's musicians and going for a similar wall of sound that put Phil on the map in the early 60's? Brian would also be a visitor to observe Phil's sessions, musicians have said they used to see him there early on. Yet it was Jan Berry's influence instead of Phil? The difference is, Phil was selling a lot of records when Brian was watching him produce...Jan was not.

Is it coincidence that Brian was involved with writing three of those four songs you mentioned, and Roger Christian the fourth? I'd say those four songs more or less are what most people in general would remember most about Jan And Dean's entire discography.

My reaction was mainly against the Jan and Dean are an amateur, novelty act type of comments, which I believe is highly inaccurate.

As a musician myself I really try to refrain from judging anybody else’s work. It’s in poor taste. So please understand...when I say I can’t hear what’s so great about them, I’m not trying to be hip or cool or snarky. I just tried to listen to a few tracks with a fresh ear and I still feel the same way (if not stronger) .  To be fair I will listen to the entire catalog (that’s available on YouTube) so I can be more informed...but I really don’t like what I’ve heard.

While hardly a be-all, end-all piece of evidence, look at this 1980 Jan and Dean show:

https://youtu.be/eXm3cL-mjdE

10 of the 17 songs are straight up BB covers. That doesn't even include Sidewalk Surfin' and two more BW cowrites. Only four of the 17 songs are not BB related. I'm not saying they would have been expected to bust out late era deep tracks. But they didn't even have a big late 50s/early 60s pool of songs they were pulling from.

HeyJude,

Phase II of J&D's career (post-accident era) was all about two things

1. Boosting Jan's confidence: He worked his ass off to remember the lyrics to the Jan & Dean songs. He continued to f*ck up the lyrics for years and years, but he worked his hardest to remember those lyrics. That's why he could only sing so many of his own songs. I'm sure they would have played more J&D songs, as they actually did at the beginning of Phase II, if Jan could remember the words.

2. Please fans/nostalgia/etc: Just like people who see Mike Love, the people who saw J&D during Phase II were there to dance and sing along to surf/hot rod hits. They could care less if it was BBs material or J&D material. Just like how most people seeing Mike's current show, wouldn't even know that Unleash The Love is a Mike Love song, and not The Beach Boys. They were just playing crowd pleasers.

I love Jan and Dean. If I was a teen in 1963 I'd more likely have pictures of Jan 😍 Berry on my wall than Brian Wilson.

But my point is that if Jan and Dean had a truly well-known and remembered back catalog of songs, they wouldn't have needed to basically do a Beach Boys setlist to "please fans", regardless of who was singing them. The Papa Doo Run Run guys could have just as easily taken over leads on some J&D songs. Why didn't they? Because the masses probably only remembered the core 3 or 4 famous J&D songs. They essentially didn't have enough songs to even fill out a 45 minute set. That they not only filled the set with covers, but exclusively BB covers indicates how much their legacy was reliant on sort of piggybacking on the success of the BBs.

Its been years since Ive seen.it, but I think the Beach Boys poke fun at this a little on the episode of Home Improvement they were it. 

Horrid? That instrumental break is perfect for the song. Those chords (E and A) feel like a callback to Shut Down (Db and Ab) and Shut Down Part 2 (intro: D and A) - also about car racing. Unless I am cracking up. For me it lends continuity to an album with different themes and in this case, less is more and makes it stand out, yet fit in. Like the break in Sloop John B where Brian drops the instruments leaving just the voices. Jaw-dropping, actually.

It comes down to feeling. Don't sing it like you wrote it. Sing it like you lived it, breathed it and feel it. A good example is how Carl really let it go in Shortenin' Bread. What a goofy song, but he sounded like he was having a blast.

Jan and Dean had some fun songs. They were often amateurish, but that was part of their charm. Side 4 of the Anthology album was an acquired taste to me, but I can appreciate it more now. I have all of their stuff and love singing the background stuff when listening to Jennie Lee, Baby Talk, Linda, Popsicle (a seriously fun song to sing along with) and the surf/car songs, of course.

But with that said, even if Brian learned things from Jan, it is not indicative of Jan being better or even on par with Brian. It is more likely to be Brian's ability to recognize what he feels is important or what can be useful and adapt it to "his sound". This is not an "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" case, but more like, "I like where you were going with that idea, but I am going to take it into a different direction" case.

(edited for stupid mistakes made due to lack of coffee.)

"But with that said, even if Brian learned things from Dean, it is not indicative of Dean being better or even on par with Brian. It is more likely to be Brian's ability to recognize what he feels is important or what can be useful and adapt it to "his sound". This is not an "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" case, but more like, "I like where you were going with that idea, but I am going to take it into a different direction" case. "

I think you mean Jan, but this is the sentiment I was trying to get across, that Brian and Jan were not equals--except, maybe, for a brief time in the studio around 1962, 1963--but that there was definitely some influence on Brian from working with Jan in the studio.

And yes, I'm the one who dislikes the break in DWB. I love the song, but the break has always sounding jarring and amateurish to me. Jan, of course, would have come up with something better  ;D

As far as people talking about the Phase II J&D setlist being filled with BB songs, that was totally Dean's doing. It's no secret there was a lot of tension between Jan and Dean, post-accident, and in concert, Dean would often call J&D songs that Jan had written and produced "stupid." On the One Summer Night Live album, referring to not getting paid for Jennie Lee, he says, "who would pay you for that stupid song." This is said right in front of Jan. Can you imagine what would happen if Mike Love said something like that at a C50 concert with Brian sitting right there. Dean's "humor" post-accident towards Jan gets very testy at times, and reflected their strained relationship. As a result, Dean didn't care if they did a lot of J&D songs in concert, as he was fine with J&D being a BB-covers band. If you listen to Jan's solo concerts in the mid-70s and 80s, they are much more focused on Jan and Dean material, as well as Jan's solo material of the time. However, post-accident, you had a situation where Dean wasn't a proponent of J&D songs, where Jan was unable to sing lead on more than a handful of songs (and Jan sang lead on most J&D songs), and also, they had no post-1966 material to perform. It would be as if the Beach Boys played nothing live after Summer Days. So many people love the 1966-1972 BB's musical output. Well, Jan and Dean never had the opportunity to have any output during those years.

That said, you could still construct a pretty nice J&D-only setlist:

Jennie Lee
Baby Talk
Linda
Barbara Ann (they recorded this years before the BB's did)
Tennessee
Surf City
Drag City
Honolulu Lulu
Deadman's Curve
New Girl in School
Little Old Lady from Pasadena
Ride the Wild Surf
Sidewalk Surfin
Popsicle
I Found A Girl
Batman
Anaheim, Azuza
Here They Come From All Over the World



That's a nice 18-song basis for a J&D-based setlist. Add in 3-4 "deep" album cuts such as Rockin Little Roadster, Someday (a great Four Seasons-like tune), One Piece Topless Bathing Suit, or Horace the Swingin School Bus Driver (to name just a few that I like) and you would have a nice set. Not BB-level obviously, but certainly an enjoyable, interesting set of music. And this doesn't even include some Carnival of Sound or Save For A Rainy Day songs.

Right. Jan & Dean had plenty of hits (and some groovy deep cuts) they could and would have played had Jan been in charge of Phase II. But that was totally Dean's operation, and due to his tension with Jan, I assume that part of the reason they played so many BBs songs, was to piss Jan off. Although Jan did love to sing "Hide Your Love Away" by The Beatles. He said it was the best song ever written and he demanded to sing it at many shows... But in reality, it was one of the only songs Jan could remember the words to.

It's pretty obvious Dean decided to have so many BBs  songs for two reasons.
1) To play crowd pleasers (Duh! Who doesn't love the BBs music? And J&D with Papa Doo Ron Ron played them really well!)
2) He was upset with Jan.

I'm gonna throw some opinions out there about Jan & Dean.

I must say I kinda appreciate Stebbins and Edelson's unfiltered comments about Jan & Dean.

I also am totally in agreement with Howie about how he loves reading about Jan & Dean thanks to Mark Moore, but that their music is usually....ehhh. I also agree that Jan's post accident (mostly '70s) vocal stuff is usually much more interesting.

Now, I will say that I actually do dig some of Jan's early stuff. I think "Jennie Lee" and "Baby Talk" are both cool little nostalgic '50s things. I also dig "Surf City", "Ride the Wild Surf" and "You Really Know How to Hurt a Guy" among maybe a few others.

However, stuff like his pro Vietnam War "Only a Boy" and the "The Universal Coward" are absolutely fucking pathetic especially when one considers that Jan was a fuckin' chicken hawk. He was all about that war and sending our young men over there, as long as he himself wasn't the one who was gonna be sent over. Cuz when he was drafted, he tried to weasel out of it. In fact, I wouldn't doubt that this was weighing on his mind the day he had his life changing car accident. And if I remember correctly, Jan actually changed stripes after the accident, becoming an anti-war Democrat.

And as far as Dean, dude kinda just seems like a dick. I could go into more later, but basically he just seemed (and still seems) very, very disrespectful of a friend (Jan) who made him a lot of money and opened many doors for him. Not to mention that I remember reading an interview from around 2012 or so where he said he wasn't sure if he'd do any new music* due to the fact that the President at the time was making it so hard for hard working Americans like him to make money. :thud



*Like anybody cares if Dean Torrence puts out new music.

The Byrds didn't think the instrumental break in DWB was so bad. 

I also think, Nate, that, for the most part, Jan was just happy actually being on stage and performing. He had so many challenges to overcome just being up there, I'm sure the setlist was way down on his list.

You've Got to Hide Your Love Away is song I would also include in a J&D-flavored setlist. While it's obviously a cover, Jan and Dean performed it before the accident, and their versions--both pre and post-accident--were so different than the original as to almost make it a new song. In terms of covers, I am okay with songs that bands have performed for so long that they had basically made them their own. Think Sloop John B. Then I Kissed Her, Cottonfields and Barbara Ann for the BB's. All covers, but they might as well be original BB songs because the group has performed them for so long, and recorded them. Nobody says that the BB's should drop those songs from their setlists because they are not originals. Quite the contrary; Sloop John B is a fan favorite, and I love Al's version of Then I Kissed Her, one of my favorite "Beach Boys" songs.

Totally agree about Jan most likely being a dick before the accident, and Dean being one afterwards! Still, that doesn't takeaway from the music--Universal Coward and Only A Boy are actually nice songs from a musical standpoint, but the lyrics are a whole different issue. I try to separate the personal from the music when dealing with artists that I don't know personally. It's the usual Mike Love argument--you can still enjoy the music, even with Mike (who will all know is a hardcore right-winger) singing it. And, as you likely know, Mike and Dean have been good friends for a long time.

On an interesting note, I believe Dean is interviewed briefly during the infamous Diane Sawyer Landy/Brian interview in 1991, as an example of someone who is blocked by Landy from getting in touch with Brian. Brian's response is basically, why would I ever talk to Dean Torrence, we have no relationship. That part actually rang true to me, as it was Jan who Brian had the musical connection with, not Dean. It felt like Dean was doing a Mike Love and trying to paint himself as a creative contemporary of Brian's, with Brian basically shoving that nonsense back down Dean's throat.

You know, it's not so much Jan's earlier political beliefs at all, it was just that it was so damn hypocritical of him to be pushing for this war while trying his best to get out of serving his country. It doesn't bother me that Carl Wilson was a draft dodger because he was anti-war and cited his religious beliefs. He had a reason for not wanting to go. Jan on the other hand wanted to stay home and cheat on his girlfriend and make songs about how one should serve their country.

I saw Jan And Dean live in the summer of 1998. It was a good show and I'm glad I went, but I have to say what I've said here and elsewhere before. Even standing there listening at the show I had the feeling that they were playing too many Beach Boys songs, BB songs that actually had nothing to do with Jan And Dean at all. If they had done BB's tunes they covered on their own releases, that would be fine. But if I recall they did Do It Again among others that had no connection to J&D...

So count me as someone who went to a Jan And Dean show in the late 90's to hear Jan And Dean music on a summer's night, and I left wondering why it felt like half their set was Beach Boys music.

After reading this thread, I think maybe some of the posts hit on a possible reason. There just aren't that many chart hits that the duo had which an audience would recognize, and they didn't want to play deep cuts. But that may say a lot about the whole situation where they had to play what felt like too many Beach Boys songs in order to please the crowd, if their own discography was as influential and as big as some have suggested.

This totally removes the influence of Phil Spector from the equation, and that could be the main influence on both Brian and Jan - in terms of making records like Phil was making at this time with the same core musicians as both Brian and Jan started using.

Also regarding the Jan & Dean show -- although not publicly marketed as such -- was a Beach Boys cover act. As was Papa and now the Endless Summer whatever. Perfect for corporate gigs and low-scale fundraisers (I saw Jan & Dean in, I think 2001, in the parking lot at Glendale Hospital. Jan performed, slumped, sitting on a hard metal folding chair with a spilled full can of Diet Rite at his velcroed orthopedic shoes.)

You want the Beach Boys but can only pay #4,450 -- here ya go. Like a farm league. I was always amazed that BRI never flexed its muscles with Dean regarding someone else touring, what is essentially, the Beach Boys' act.

Although there were a handful of obese men holding J&D magazines and 45's, the vast majority of the (maybe 100) people probably walked away from that parking lot gig saying "The Beach Boys were dynamite!" and then completely forgot the entire event ever happened.

Dude...you're veering a bit close to mocking a disabled man. While I personally think it would have been better if Jan stopped touring by the point, I still don't think we should mock a man who was in his condition. Let's leave that to this piece of sh*t:

(http://www.sickchirpse.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Donald-Trump-Disabled-.jpg)

Also, mocking obese dudes? C'mon. I've seen photos of you, and you're a good lookin' dude, though not exactly tiny (and for that fact, neither am I. I weigh a cool 215 and have a bit of a belly as anybody who's friends with me on Facebook can see).

In 1998, you were seeing the Dean Torrence Show, and Dean, even more than Mike Love, cares nothing about artistry or legacy--its all about playing hits, no matter whose hits they were, and having a good time.

As far as having an influential and big discography, no one--certainly not me--is saying that Jan and Dean have that. They were a minor group--who I enjoy very much--with a handful of hits. If you listen to oldies radio today, you will still hear Surf City and the Little Old Lady from Pasadena in regular rotation, Linda, Baby Talk, Deadman's Curve semi-regularly, and one or two other songs like Drag City or Honolulu Lulu occasionally.  That's 4-5 songs still being played 50+ years later. Certainly not BB level, but they are not some forgotten one-hit wonders. Even the release of Mark Moore's book and the Carnival of Sound release from a few years ago shows that there is still some interest in Jan and Dean. If no one cared, Rhino wouldn't have wasted their money putting out COS, and no reputable publisher would have touched Mark's book. Again, they have an audience, albeit a small one.

Also, keep in mind that their profile has diminished over time for other reasons. First of all, Jan was the brains behind the act, and with his voice as advocate effectively silenced in 1966--and with Dean's frequent negativity toward their legacy and music--there has no one to champion them. A lot of the respect for the BB today is because Brian has been championed as a visionary artist for the past twenty years. Jan and Dean have basically had no marketing team for decades. If you go back to the late 70s and early 1980s, after the release of the Deadman's Curve film, Jan and Dean were a much bigger act. They might not have played stadiums like the BB's did, but I saw them several times during the time period, and they played places that held 1,000-2,000 people, not dissimilar to the kind of audience Brian draws today. As time went on, and there was no new J&D material, and their original audience aged out and was not replaced by a new one, they became a largely forgotten act playing casinos and the like. When I saw J&D in 1998, they had to make an announcement before the show, telling the audience that Jan had been in an accident in 1966, so that people would understand his appearance. They didn't have to make the same announcement in 1981 because the audience was much more familiar with them.

Also, in terms of songs, Jan and Dean had nothing to draw on post-1966, so their time as an active act was very limited. Not saying that would have had any more hits had the accident never happened, but they did have a TV show scheduled to run in the fall of 1966 on ABC, so that would have certainly kept their profile high.

The point I have been trying to make is that Jan and Dean, while minor, still have SOME resonance all these years later. They may not have been major stars like the BB's, but they weren't Milli Vanilli.

*

Wow. I'm disappointed. I am big fan of your work and all the writing you've done and I always look forward to reading your stuff. However I see that you think you're above me because I don't know who you know, and dared to point out that I thought you wrote some inappropriate stuff. Your response that you were reporting what you saw passes muster for me though and I'll give you that it's different from you *making fun*. But it did draw me back for a second.

And I googled "Howie Edelson" after your posts. And since I've read your liner notes in a few releases, I'd say it's fair that you're a public person. So I looked you up. So what? If I want to feel lorded over by the so-called "cool kids in class" I'll go speak with David Beard and Andrew Doe. I didn't think I'd be spoken down to on this board. However, I'm wrong. I must be one of those "total nerds" that you hate, which is a shame, cuz I thought you seemed like a straight up, decent guy.

First of all, according to Mark Moore's book, Jan shouldn't have been eligible for the draft at that point as he was still recovering from his movie set train accident, his leg wasn't 100 percent healed, and the draft board finally realized that, perhaps on the day of Jan's car accident. (One thing that amazes me is that Jan had several car accidents post-1966 and emerged without a scratch).
Regarding J and D's music, there's a lot of it that I would put on a "Joel's favorite music" mix tape, such as hits (Surf City, Sidewalk Surfin'-the opening of which I play over and over again, Dead Man's Curve, Ride the Wild Surf), album cuts or lesser hits (I Found A Girl, and especially It's As Easy as 1, 2,3) and at least one album (Batman, for the skits, not the music).
And yes, Jan was getting a little twisted by 1965-66, but I love one product of that: A Beginning From An End: Great musically, and a very twisted take on Dead Man's Curve.

I'm saying "who are YOU???" -- because you're admonishing me as if you KNOW me.

You should've read that as:

1. Don't put words in my mouth.
2. Don't compare me with Donald Trump.
3. Don't comment on my appearance to make a point (are you checking out pics of my kids TOO???)

2800 posts and you don't know how to discuss this like an adult and keep it on the up and up???

Guys, please don’t do this. I genuinely like both of you but I really don’t care to see this.

I gave a mea culpa and you refused. This is noted. I don't KNOW anyone on this board.

Secondly, don't talk about anybody's kids. Don't make it about that. I have a daughter and I don't think that kinda stuff is useful in making a point. I don't find it amusing to be compared to a predator. If you have got a problem, private message me. Otherwise drop it. I'm willing to have a dialogue with you, but sense you'll be too cool for that.

Why bring politicians into this? Maybe you are too lazy to look deeper. The truth is, Trump has often used those same convulsive gestures to mimic the mannerisms of people, including himself, who are rattled and exasperated.

Why couldn't the mainstream media look this up?  I guess it doesn't fit your narrative.

Quite right. The narrative should be that Trump's terrorism campaign is killing civilians in record numbers and consequently, he should be brought before an international tribunal and condemned for international war crimes. I agree that his little "impressions" are debatable but his status as a war criminal isn't.

Ok this has gotten out of hand. Let’s bring this back on topic. It’s close to running its course anyway but let’s st least try to bring it back and be more civil as well

Well, on topic, I do want to say that Jan & Dean have never much caught my attention but I do think it's not a great idea to evaluate music in terms of its "coolness" and how much "cool people" like it. I think that's a particularly dangerous evaluation criteria when one is a Beach Boys fan.

As Jan Berry was in Medical School had he hinted at what he was planning to do after graduation? Was he planning to continue concentrating on music or would it be more of a hobby

All this thread needs is Rocky Pamplin...

This 100%.

As to Dean Torrence's influence on BW, is it true that Dean suggested they record Barbara Ann?  That's something I guess.  I mean, I personally can't stand the song but it was a big hit for them so...  And it's fair to say Brian liked Dean as a graphic designer.

Good points

What civilians has he killed?War crimes? Do you know how many were bomber under Obama? Sad man. Way to deflect the proven false reporting and create new rubbish.

No more politics in this thread, please

Currently trying to read this and figure out how we went from Dean Torrence to Donald Trump?  ???

Let's just enjoy the music everyone  :hat

The story is that Jan And Dean were asked by Brian to be part of the "Party" he would be recording for the "Party!" album, but their record company refused to allow it unless contracts were signed and a bunch of other stuff happened. So J&D declined the offer. But the day Brian was in the studio cutting tracks for Party, Jan and Dean were recording in the same complex, in a different studio room. There was something that needed to be fixed at that J&D session, a break was called, and Dean said he was going over to visit the Beach Boys session across the way. According to Dean, Jan told him not to sing.

Dean shows up at the BB's session. They want to do a tune. They start discussing which tunes they could do, which songs they knew. Dean said Barbara Ann because everyone knew it, he had cut it with Jan earlier, and they started running it down, checking the key, getting a structure, etc.

Dean was singing with the "group", part of the background vocals, lower harmonies, as Brian did falsetto lead. Brian told him to come over to his mic and sing the falsetto lead with him. So he did. And that's the sound of the record. A dual, double-falsetto lead vocal. One element that helped make it a hit on the radio - that strong falsetto cutting through.

The reason why they did that song is also because Dean told them he only had a small amount of time to sing with them, because he had to go back to the session Jan was doing across the way. Like, 15 minutes and he had to leave. So they picked an easy and familiar song they all knew.

It wasn't a case of Dean calling Brian or anyone else and saying "Guys, if you cut this Regents song that Jan and I covered back in '62, you'll have a smash hit record!". It was a spur of the moment choice that everyone there already knew, it was a basic song, and it was done because Dean only had a brief break from his session to sing with the Beach Boys before he had to split. And he was originally not going to double the falsetto until Brian asked him to join him at the lead mic.

There is *a lot* of misinformation about that song going around. One is that Capitol "forced" Brian to release it as a single. No - Capitol wanted product from Brian and the BB's, so the Party album was what they got. And a Capitol exec who was assigned to Brian and the band tried to talk Brian out of releasing Barbara Ann as a single. Talked the song down, talked down the recording, said it wouldn't look good next to The Beatles, etc after Brian played them the acetate. Brian took the record, got up to walk out of the man's office, held up the acetate of Barbara Ann, and told him "this is our next single" as he walked out. That exec never worked directly with Brian again on BB's releases.

I feel like some portion of BB fans are so apt to hate on J&D because people (outside of devoted fans of the genre) associate J&D songs in general with being kind of hokey, tongue-in-cheek teenybopper/childish stuff, and Their Favorite Band that they've devoted so much time to is NOT LIKE THAT, OKAY?!  NOW CHANGE THE SUBJECT.

If you catch the vocal inflection that I tried to convey through my keyboard....

I may be one of the few that actually loves Barbara Ann. It's the sound of a band and friends jamming in the studio and having a blast, informal yet with a catchy groove and that dual falsetto lead, and I think the reason why listeners connected with it was that spirit and vibe came through the speakers and people connected. I'll say that having Dean and Brian do that falsetto together was a terrific decision that helped make the record cut through, along with the stops and starts where Mike's bass cuts through. So, credit to Dean for suggesting it! And they finished in time for him to return to whatever Jan was cutting that day.

I love Barbara Ann as well. Always did, but even moreso once I heard it in context on the Party! album. From 'baa baa black sheep, have you any wool?' to the warbling, nearly drunken outro to the "Thank you Dean". It sounds spontaneous, energetic, fun and impossibly full. Kudos to Dean as Barbara Ann was a great choice.

I'll send you a PM with the info.

The amount of hatred spewed here truly amuses me.

No one has to like the music. There’s certainly nothing wrong with disliking the music. But the context for what was happening in that era with regard to Jan Berry is crucial—and that context is sorely lacking on this board and among Beach Boys fans in general.

Early on, Jan had two main mentors in Joe Lubin and Lou Adler (and Adler had only recently learned the ropes himself while working for Keen Records and Bumps Blackwell). And it was Lubin who set Jan on his path within the Hollywood studio system. From day one with Jan & Arnie in 1958 Jan worked with and observed the best R&B musicians in the business—Earl Palmer, Rene Hall, Plas Johnson, Ray Johnson, Ernie Freeman, and others. And they would all go on to record for Jan & Dean.

In September 1961, at the age of 20, Jan was signed as both a songwriter and record producer to a major New York City production company, Nevins-Kirshner Associates (Al Nevins and Don Kirshner). A month later, using the best musicians in Hollywood, Jan produced a stellar “Girl Group” track for Pixie called “I’m Dying To Give You My Love.” He co-wrote, arranged, and produced the song. Jan wrote the music while Don Altfeld contributed to the lyrics. And while the track remained unreleased, “I’m Dying To Give You My Love” featured many of the arrangement and production hallmarks that would become commonplace on Jan’s later productions for Jan & Dean. Ever wonder what inspired the Intro to “Dead Man’s Curve”? Wonder no more . . . it was one of Jan’s own compositions from 1961.

As a staff songwriter and producer for Nevins-Kirshner, Jan received generous advances against royalties, and he began getting official label credit as an arranger for Lou Adler’s productions, both for Jan & Dean and for outside artists. Nevins-Kirshner brokered Jan & Dean’s contract with Liberty Records.

By that time Jan’s home studio at Eleven-Eleven Linda Flora Drive in Bel Air was decked out with thousands of dollars’ worth of recording equipment, and he had become comfortable working in the Hollywood studio system. In December 1962, at the age of 21, Jan took over the production reins for Jan & Dean, and assumed complete creative control of the act.

In the spring of 1963 Nevins-Kirshner was acquired by Screen Gems-Columbia Music. Screen Gems absorbed and renewed all three of Jan’s contracts, and that’s when he really started making money. Jan’s production royalty alone was substantial. Screen Gems was obviously tied to the film industry, and they employed Jan to write music for the films Ride the Wild Surf and The New Interns (both by Columbia Pictures). The company also employed Jan to write, arrange and produce music for other artists in the Screen Gems family—outside of Jan & Dean.

It’s not a contest, folks. It’s not about being equal or unequal. These are cold, hard facts. Brian Wilson was indeed influenced by Jan as a record producer, and as an industry insider who could help Brian learn the ropes of the system—a fact which takes nothing away from Brian. Take Brian’s word for it.

Both Jan and Brian were influenced by Phil Spector. Jan and Spector began their careers in the same year, 1958, and Jan’s first hit preceded Spector’s by about four months. Brian observed Spector in the studio from a distance, for the most part. Brian was never a member of Spector’s inner circle. But Jan and Brian were friends, and they spent time with each other in the studio. Jan even included Brian as a paid musician on a few sessions for Jan & Dean tracks. It’s documented.


Unlike Jan, Brian was not signed to a major entertainment company as a producer. In fighting Capitol Records for production autonomy, Brian had to soak up all he could in his quest to officially take the production reins from the likes of Nick Venet.

Another thing . . . Roger Christian never left Jan Berry. They were close friends, and Roger worked far more with Jan than he ever did with Brian. Roger co-wrote “You Really Know How To Hurt A Guy” with Jan and Jill Gibson in 1965. And Jan and Roger wrote together throughout the 1970s and into the 1980s.

Roger was not a musician and contributed lyrics only. When Jan wrote songs with Roger Christian and Don Altfeld, Jan wrote the music while the others contributed words.

Lou Adler was the one who brought Jan and Brian together officially as songwriters—and by working with Jan Brian automatically forfeited any publishing, because Jan’s Screen Gems contracts forbade it. But Brian got a nice songwriting royalty.

Jan really admired Brian’s talents, and he learned a lot from Brian. They made a strong songwriting team, but Jan also co-wrote a string of Top-30 hits without Brian.

Most of Jan’s original music scores from the ‘60s still exist. They are remarkable documents that preserve his authentic arrangements. The bass lines in the scores are the bass lines you hear on the records. Obviously the same is true for brass, woodwinds, and strings. The drum parts are also written out note-for-note. Jan even served as his own copyist at times, generating the individual charts for the musicians from his master score. In other cases he hired the best copyists in Hollywood to generate the charts from the scores.

It’s a given that Jan didn’t have the natural gifts that Brian had. But Jan brought his own formidable strengths to their collaborative efforts. Brian’s collaborations with Jan were Brian’s only successful venture outside of the Beach Boys. Brian’s compositions and productions for Bob & Sheri, the Honeys, Sharon Marie, the Survivors, the Castells, Paul Petersen, and Glen Campbell did not chart—and they were all released on major labels (Capitol and Warner Bros.) between 1962 and 1965, when Brian was at the height of his powers. So Jan clearly brought something to the table . . . (and no, Murry Wilson didn’t have the industry power to single-handedly kill all of Brian’s outside releases).

Jan & Dean had a short career. And with the main guy, Jan Berry, doing it part-time, it’s a wonder they had as many hits as they did. The Beatles and the Beach Boys were much bigger during that time, and it goes without saying that they’re more important acts from today’s standpoint. But in their time and place, ’58 to ’66, Jan & Dean were a successful Rock ‘n Roll act—something Bruce Johnston never hesitates to point out.

“Dead Man’s Curve” is in the Grammy Hall of Fame. Jan & Dean have their place in the grand scheme of it all.

Well said Mark and GF! :bw

Maybe some here have the DTs.

Never knew that info in the last paragraph!

Dude, chill. I don’t care for them because I just don’t care for the music. Hell, it took me a long time to even get the early BB music. Just my opinion.

Not really interested in reading ALL 5 pages...yet.  Gotta go out and do a little grocery shopping for the 'little lady' shortly.  [no ... not the one from Pasadena]  I was always under the impression that Brian influenced Dean...and especially Jan.  Sure J&D had been around awhile before Brian found the 'sound' but Jan and Dean never sounded like they were into the Beach Boys  'style' ... until they actually heard it and Brian supplied some songs for them...plus a secret voice or 2.

I mean I liked Surf City...LOVED Drag City...dug Sidewalk Surfin' and the Little Old Lady from P-Town and enjoyed most of the Ride the Wild Surf and J&D Meet Batman albums [have a cookie] but Dean Torrence influencing Brian Douglas Wilson?  That they were buddies back in the day is evident.  But when it comes to influence...Hawthorne flowed toward Jan and Dean's neck of the woods...not the other way.

[unless it was "Hey!!!  If those guys can do it...we sure as shootin' can..."Surfin is the only life...the only life for me now [pinch yer nose and SING!!!]...bom bom/dip dip di dip...."]

AND THAT was before Brian had "found the sound."  [thankfully...or I wouldn't he here...and Jan and Dean wouldn't be in this thread.]]

It is amazing how many sources reported or still report that Capitol forced Barbara Ann as a single against Brian's wishes. If anything they tried to talk him out of it, and the exec who did the talking basically got shut out of the process after this incident and said he never worked with Brian directly again on Capitol BB releases, which says a lot about how confident Brian was in that song being a single despite it not sounding like what he had been producing and charting at the time. And he was right, it became a smash hit!

Yeah, that's totally fine! 

I didn't think I was being un-chill with what I said, sorry if I came off that way.

I bought into that as well. I think every book out there has pretty much said that. It stands to reason that it’s false though. Back then, Brian had the clut to have the final say.

No worries. I can understand the frustration. If anything, I kind of feel bad because I want to like their stuff. I just...don’t. Surf City is an exception, though, and Little old lady from Pasadena is as well, but other than that? Pass.

I hear you.  I think I might like them as a historical curiosity more than I do their music.  A good chunk of it can be good or even really good, but a lot of it I am not that into.  And I can't ever get behind the kinda Eisenhower conservatism vibe that came out in some of their songs, especially the ones waaaay after Eisenhower.

To Mark A. Moore:

Replying to your post, I'm interested to hear your thoughts on the opinions and facts I'm going to post. I'm going from memory on some of this, so if anything needs to be corrected in terms of timeline and specifics, please do.

From what I remember, Jan and Dean first played with the Beach Boys at a live gig near Hawthorne. They saw how the crowd was getting into the surfing songs and the overall kind of music the BB's were playing, and at that gig they had the Beach Boys back them in their own set, or after the set...whatever the case, the Beach Boys backed J&D at that gig and this inspired Jan especially in terms of the whole surfing theme because of the audience's reaction.

Fast forward to a new J&D album. Lou Adler I believe pushed the surfing themes even more, and the subsequent album was "Jan And Dean Take Linda Surfin".

(https://img.discogs.com/oB9EgRF6HlF9WKWkgR5xIbJZAhU=/fit-in/487x480/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-2657855-1369699986-3271.jpeg.jpg)


I think one of the *key* points in what we're discussing in terms of influence if not the "chicken or the egg" scenario can be heard in the grooves of that album.

If we listen to that album as a whole, it's essentially Jan and Dean covering popular hits of the day, along with the "title" track Linda which was written in the 1940's. "Linda" if anything sounds like Jan and Lou going for the same sound Crewe and Gaudio were doing on 4 Seasons records. Not surprisingly they also cover a 4 Seasons track on the album, again alongside other hits like Mr. Bass Man, Rhythm Of The Rain, etc.

Jan was basically doing what they call "soundalikes" in the business. There wasn't much of a personal sonic imprint on any of those cuts, in fact at least half sound like...soundalike cover versions that aren't different from the original hits they were covering. The production overall is pretty much a meat-and-potatoes affair, and on some tracks it's almost too thin and the vocals are even a little pitchy. Definitely no Spector-like Wall Of Sound, or dense backing tracks. Again, it's a pretty basic, workingman-like production.

But - and here's where I think we need to look in terms of the influence angle - Jan covers both Surfin and Surfin Safari, which of course were Beach Boys songs that had been released the previous year.

Is Jan doing something other than copying the sounds Brian was producing for Beach Boys records? I say no, in fact he's copying the BB's originals almost verbatim.

So wouldn't that suggest Jan was actually being influenced in a production sense by Brian if he was cutting records that were carbon copies more or less of what Brian was doing for the Beach Boys' originals? If it were the other way around, the Beach Boys on those first two albums and related singles would have had something that had for lack of a better term the "Jan Berry Sound", and it simply isn't there. It's the other way around, where Jan was copying producers like Brian, Crewe/Gaudio, etc on what was the current album and project that was on the front burner when Brian and Jan started work on Surf City.

So Lou Adler gets Brian and Jan together in a writing capacity, and among other tunes Brian plays Surfin USA (which he did not give to J&D because it was already slated for a BB release) and Surf City, which of course became the first and most fruitful of their collaboration.

It was on Surf City that I think we hear *that sound*, and I wonder how much of it was Jan and how much of it was Jan going for a Spector/Levine "Wall Of Sound". Of course Spector and his Wall were on fire at that time, after He's A Rebel hit #1 in 1962, he was on an amazing roll on the singles charts.

So couldn't it be also a case where Jan, like he did with copying the production sounds on hits cut by Brian, Crewe/Gaudio, etc for the Linda album went for the Spector sound at that time just as Brian would do on his own records?

It would suggest Spector was perhaps the keystone influence on both Jan and Brian, which acknowledges both Brian being influenced by Jan after Jan copied Brian's production style on those covers from the Linda album. I think it was more of a mutual influence kind of deal rather than an overt case of Brian "stealing" ideas or sounds from Jan as sadly still gets reported and written in some circles.

I'd say Jan copying Brian on those covers before he tried to go for that Spector-like Wall Of Sound might show that the influence came out in the grooves of the records as evidence Jan was taking cues from Brian. Because unless I'm missing something in the timeline of the discography, nothing Jan did had *that sound* which Brian supposedly copied from Jan until after Surf City when they first worked together. And they were both taking cues from Spector, who was among the hottest producers in the business at this time with his Wall Of Sound.

I don’t think Brian “stole” or “copied” anything from Jan. And I don’t think Brian would have tried to sound like Jan’s productions. Jan helped show Brian how to get around the business, and equipment techniques, ping-ponging, the Wrecking Crew, etc. Engineer Bones Howe talks about that.

Jan was certainly influenced by Spector and Crewe/Gaudio.

I don’t think Jan copied Brian’s production sound for “Surfin’” and “Surfin’ Safari.” For one thing, Brian didn’t really produce those records. But to my ear, those two Beach Boys tracks have more of a garage surf vibe to them—“Surfin’ Safari” in particular—some raw power there. (I wish they had recorded “Surfin’” in its original key). I love the originals, but Jan’s productions of those two songs are more polished than the Beach Boys versions. But at the same time, they’re faithful covers of the originals.

Most of the basic tracks for Take Linda Surfin’ were recorded over two days in February of ’63—nothing special there. The “Surfin’” and “Surfin’s Safari” session was held in early March with Brian, Carl, Dennis, and David Marks. The album was released in mid-April. That was Jan’s first album production (still with Nevins-Kirshner at that time), and it was a journeyman compilation. It sounds rushed to me.

The single “Linda” (plus the album’s other covers) was Jan’s first official production for Jan & Dean, and even though he added brass and woodwinds, it’s pretty thin. I’ve always been bugged by it, because it wasn’t on par with Jan’s production of the unreleased “I’m Dying To Give You My Love” (1961)—different genre though, “Girl Group” vs. duo I guess.

In March 1963 the sessions for “Surf City” and “Gonna Hustle You” marked the beginning of what would become Jan’s signature production sound which, for the rhythm tracks, typically included two drummers, three guitars (including Danelectro six-string bass guitar), two basses (sometimes one), and piano. Brass, woodwinds, strings, and auxiliary percussion were of course overdubbed. This dense approach to tracking was similar to Spector, but with Jan creating his own sound.

"Surf City" has a vastly different sound, track-wise, than "Surfin' USA."

You don’t hear anything like that in Brian’s Beach Boys productions in ’63 or ’64. Brian’s backing tracks remained basic by comparison, with his main focus being on their amazing vocals, but still with nice instrumentation, etc.

Jan took it a step further with “Honolulu Lulu” and the Surf City album in ’63—some nice horn and string arrangements on that LP. Listen to this backing track for “Honolulu Lulu,” without the vocals or “Hawaiian guitar” overdubs.

“Honolulu Lulu” (http://jananddean-janberry.com/sounds/honolulu%20lulu_instrumental%20backing%20track_1963_web.mp3) (mp3)— Western, June 13, 1963. Musicians: Jan Berry (leader), Hal Blaine (drums), Earl Palmer (drums), Glen Campbell (guitar); Billy Strange (guitar); Bill Pitman (Danelectro six-string bass guitar); Ray Pohlman (bass)

You just don’t hear this kind of tracking on Beach Boys records in ’63 or ’64. Jan and Brian just had different approaches to what they were trying to accomplish, in terms of production.

Jan didn’t really hit his production stride until the Drag City LP in November 1963. That was the first one that featured a majority of Jan’s original compositions and strong non-single album cuts. Drag City, Dead Man’s Curve / The New Girl In School, Ride the Wild Surf, and The Little Old Lady from Pasadena are the big four albums for J&D, in terms of overall quality.

Jan had a distinct approach to his arrangements and productions. He was precise; you hear it in the Honolulu Lulu track that Mark A. Moore provided. He did not mimic or cop from Spector.  There are no slushy, imprecise things going on; the track is tight as can be, whereas Spector tracks (w/Jack Nitzsche arrangements) are not; they were executed a loose, but grooving way, then washed out with reverb. Both approaches had their merit.

Where Jan used Brian's influence is in songwriting: structure, lyric topics, melodic/harmonic devices. For instance, riding underneath Honolulu Lulu is Catch A Wave (chord progression in the verse, structure, and cymbals used with mallets).

Mark, thank you sharing that backing track!! What a great production. Jan was the best!!

Maybe this has already been mentioned in this thread, but another part of the "Barbara Ann" story is that Jan was recording "You Really Know How to Hurt a Guy"  and Dean couldn't stand the song, so he went down the hall and joined the Beach Boys session for a few minutes.  Mark can correct me if I'm mis-remembering this.

That's the way Dean told it, six years after the event in 1971, but he was mistaken.

"You Really Know How To Hurt A Guy" was recorded in April 1965 and exited the charts on July 17.

Jan's September 23, 1965, session at Western 3 (8:00 p.m.-Midnight) was for the songs "Everyone's Gone to the Moon," "Let Me Be," and "Where Were You When I Needed You." And it was a tracking session, not vocals, so I'm not sure why Dean was there.

The Beach Boys session that night was from 9:00 p.m.-Midnight, and  12:30-3:30 a.m. in Western 2.

Thanks, Mark, I think I got my information from the Legendary Masters liner notes, if I'm remembering correctly.  I've had a lot of brain cells die in the last 20 years!  :lol

Thanks for that info, Mark. (I recall reading that it was "A Beginning from an End", fwiw). Thanks for the mp3, too!

I think it's important to distinguish between influence by way of personal interaction and influence by way of, let's call it creative inspiration. Both groups influenced each other in both ways (and even covered each other), I'd say, but it was the personal side that is less obvious to outsiders.

The most crucial thing to me is that, as  I understand it, Jan verbally encouraged Brian to use session musicians to augment/supplant the Boys, saying something like "As long as the Beach Boys are singing, no one cares who played the backing tracks." Now, I may be wrong about this or maybe it's been disproven with new information, but that example is that personal influence that really has nothing to do with one band being better than the other.

"A Beginning from an End," tracked as "Miss You," was in the works at the time, but not on the "Barbara Ann" date.

Just pulling out for now two quotes in bold:

>>>I don’t think Jan copied Brian’s production sound for “Surfin’” and “Surfin’ Safari.” For one thing, Brian didn’t really produce those records. But to my ear, those two Beach Boys tracks have more of a garage surf vibe to them—“Surfin’ Safari” in particular—some raw power there. (I wish they had recorded “Surfin’” in its original key). I love the originals, but Jan’s productions of those two songs are more polished than the Beach Boys versions. But at the same time, they’re faithful covers of the originals.<<<

Chuck Britz disagrees with the notion that Brian didn't really produce the songs Brian cut at Western, including Surfin Safari in April '62. I disagree too. If we're talking about that first Capitol single cut at Western and not the later re-records for the album cut at the Capitol tower, that is. Chuck said even at that first Western session he engineered, Brian was the one calling the shots, i.e. producing. We can debate all day whether Brian or Murry or later Nik Venet did more than another in terms of producing, but to me there is no doubt who was calling the shots and doing the hands on producing rather than barking orders, or in Venet's case, overseeing the process similar to a Tom Wilson with Dylan or Chet Atkins with Elvis in '56 as his A&R title would have him doing more than the hands-on running of those sessions. Surfin - Are we talking about or comparing the Morgan version or the Capitol re-record?

No doubt it was garage-surf, both Surfin Safari and Surfin. That's what the Beach Boys were in the Spring of '62. When you suggest Jan's are more polished productions, yet faithful to the originals (faithful to the point of being carbon copy soundalikes to my ears with the only difference being the vocal timbres), and factor in that some Beach Boys themselves are on those sessions, it seems like a contradiction. Jan is copying what Brian already did going back to that Capitol demo that Venet bought and which became the Surfin Safari/409 single, and before that the Hite Morgan recording of Surfin. Maybe I just can't hear enough of whatever element Jan supposedly added to his covers to make them more polished, because they are faithful covers of the originals. but I think in Jan's case, they sound even thinner and lack the energy and charm that I think the BB's brought in terms of that garage style.




>>>In March 1963 the sessions for “Surf City” and “Gonna Hustle You” marked the beginning of what would become Jan’s signature production sound which, for the rhythm tracks, typically included two drummers, three guitars (including Danelectro six-string bass guitar), two basses (sometimes one), and piano. Brass, woodwinds, strings, and auxiliary percussion were of course overdubbed. This dense approach to tracking was similar to Spector, but with Jan creating his own sound.

"Surf City" has a vastly different sound, track-wise, than "Surfin' USA."<<<


Naturally it would. The Beach Boys were a self-contained band. Jan And Dean had no structured backing band to speak of, which is why I mentioned the Beach Boys backing them up. If Jan wanted to cut records in 62-63, he would need to either stack it all himself, or hire the musicians to be the backing band. The Beach Boys at that time were still a fully 100% self-contained unit to where the same band you heard live was the band on the records. Jan & Dean were obviously not a band but a duo. That's obvious but I say it to make a point. I don't see Jan's vision coming out of this as much as necessity.

And as Spector was cutting smash hit records in 62 and into 63 which had a room crammed full of musicians doubling and tripling instruments and getting a signature sound that was making millions, I see Jan doing the same thing as basically following the influence of Spector and trying to get sounds that were making Spector a millionaire and scoring top-5 hits. He also used the same loose-knit group of session players as Phil, which of course Brian would later do.

And in Brian's case, the sound started to change when Brian more or less made a decision to focus on producing records rather than touring, as we all know, but which also changed the Beach Boys from that self-contained band into almost separate entities. I wouldn't be surprised if there were suggestions written or posted online that Jan influenced *that* too, but above all I can't stop going right back to Phil Spector as the source of influence and inspiration for both Jan and Brian to where their productions started using Phil's musicians and became an individualized version of the sounds Phil was having great success with starting roughly in '62 when He's A Rebel hit #1 and all the hits followed.

The "Take Linda Surfin" album, I have to judge it in terms of the sounds, the scope, the flaws and drawbacks, and all else if the discussion is about who influenced whom first, or wherever the discussion went. That is what Jan was doing, those were the sounds he was putting on record, rushed or not. It wasn't until Adler got Brian and Jan together, and Christian and a few others followed to where the songs being written got much better, that we can hear bigger productions that I think owe more to Spector's direct influence than anyone.

I hear a big difference in production on those two songs, regardless of Morgan or Capitol, and regardless of who produced them—a different sound using the same players (Beach Boys). But I still love the originals.

Spector was an influence, for sure, as I said. He had his own sound and style. But I would argue they weren't "Phil's musicians." I think that's one of the fallacies of modern music journalism. They were not unique to his productions. The union players pre-dated that era, as did the union itself. Jan, as an example, began working with those musicians in 1958 (Joe Lubin's productions) and was leading recording sessions with those musicians by late 1961 and early '62.

The union players in Hollywood were everyone's musicians.

Jan had a different sound than Spector, and the signature sound Jan began developing in March 1963 was dense and sophisticated, but still not the Wall of Sound.

Yes, Jan's sound was very clean. Great insrument seperation. He is a sorely underrated producer, and as people have pointed out, I think this was to do with song choice, and overall positioning of the Jan and Dean brand.

I'm going to reclarify my position.

There is no doubt in my mind that Brian first observed techniques that he went on to master and innovate in, from watching Jan Berry. This includes overdubbing. Obviously he was aware of the process due to the sound on sound capabilties of his Wollensak, but he first saw it's use in a studio setting watching Jan cut tracks. I have already reccomended listening to the Fun Fun Fun sessions as an example of Brian utilizing a Jan Berry type approach to overdubbing. After the basic track is cut, the drums and bass and lead guitar get overdubbed again. I believe the guitar intro gets a third overdub. Very much what Jan had been doing. I agree with others that the recordings need to be our prime texts.

It may well be this approach did not originate from Berry, I am not claiming it did. I am claiming that Brian observed it being used by Jan Berry first, and became aware of the endless possibilities.

I'm not a huge Jan and Dean fan musically. Like many others here I find their songs derivative. Any balance of influences between Brian and Jan tips way more in Jan's favour.  I have no doubt they are only remembered today because of the Beach Boys connection.

However,  Jan did have a very good ear in the studio. An excellent ear which led to many excellent sounding records which stand out from that era. I've mentioned the word clean. They are big sounding records, and not in the Spectarian sense.

I have no problem at in saying that Jan was one of Brian's key early influences as a producer, and his influence went on to provide that clean-ness and seperation that marks Brian out from Spector. This influence also includes people management skills,  organisation as well as recording strategies. Jan was a few years older than Brian and had had a few years in the business. He was confident. Through him, Brian saw a model of how to "be" a record producer, a role that was at this time in great transition. He was a mentor. Brian did not develop in a vacuum. For those first few years he watched and learnt from what others were doing. Then he innovated.  He went on to eclipse everyone, from Jan Berry, to Spector, to the Beatles.

I have no problem giving credit were credit is due, and allowing Brian to be a human being who learns from the people around him.

I wonder what would have happened in an alternate world where The Beach Boys released Surf City rather than Jan & Dean. Would it have charted the same way?

Where I lived...Surf City was rather like an addendum to Surfin' USA/Shutdown.  It was June 17, 1963. The Beach Boys were kickin' off their 10th straight week on the chart...most of those weeks in the top 10...  By July 1st...Jan and Dean made the top 10.  The Beach Boys were STILL there.  The Beach Boys would hang around for the rest of July but by August 5th they were gone...to be replaced that week by Surfer Girl/Little Deuce Coupe.  That was the same week that Jan and Dean slipped out of the top 10.  In total...Surfin' USA lasted 6 weeks longer on the singles chart and the album in Toronto's Top 5 [source:  The CHUM Album Index] from May 27, 1963 every week until it fell off the mini chart December 2nd.  Be True to Your School was about to crack the top 10.  Surfer Girl/Little Deuce Coup waved goodbye on November 11th as Be True to Your School was beginning it's 2nd week on the chart.

Numbers and dates/numbers and dates...the point being...Where could they have squeezed Surf City into that constant and rolling string of successes?  By the end of '63 Surfin' was close to being toast.  T'was all about CARS.  [and Jan and dean would strike next with Drag City December 16th.]  In order for Surf City to make its mark...and scale the charts in a timely summer-time fashion...it would have had to have played out the way that it did.

There were 4 Beach Boys [out of 5] who were better singers than Berry and Torrence.  BUT Jan and Dean made the right move by recording timely songs in the midst of the hot, hip themes of the moment.  And out of all of that...skateboarding is still a 'thing' as well.  They recorded at least 12 songs which Brian had a hand in...and Roger Christian wrote with Jan too.  For awhile [maybe 18 months in total] they picked the right songs to record and they did it while the subject matter was 'happening'.  Then they stopped...the Beatles appeared on North American shores [and airwaves] and they slowly but surely went out with the tide.

But for a year and a half they mattered...and MC'ing the TAMI show suggests that THAT isn't just an opinion.  They were well enough thought of that they rode that specific wave.  'Here they come'.../then off they went.

This, of course, includes the songs at least co-written if not just plain written by Brian plus the ones Roger contributed to?  And the few Brian vocally participated in at the studio?  So even though, in some cases they were using Brian's blueprint, they were "shitty"?  Man!!!  You're a little too rough for me.  Jan and Dean were fun.  No fun allowed here?  Wasn't Brian into humour? [and 'fun'?...hence Party...along with Cassius vs. Sonny and all of 'that' album filler/time wasting tripe.]  And wasn't that nasal 'thing' part of the 'sound' for a couple of years?  Sure it wore thin but it was part of the fun as well.  I'll rescind what I said previously...The Beach Boys had 5 better singers.  Mike's voice was more musical that that of either Jan's OR [especially] Dean's.   

Back in 1964 I never thought to go somewhere and try surfing.  That said ... I did affix some roller skate wheels to the bottom of a rectangular wooden board and go racing down a freekin' asphalt hill wearing only pants, a tee-shirt and a pair of sneakers.  Pads?  Helmet?  Gloves?  No way.  Jan and Dean didn't wear that 'poop'.  We went on a high school exchange excursion down to Rochester when I was in grade 11.  Somehow I got linked up with some kids from the school there who thought they'd take me to 'their' hill just to give it a whirl. [and, they thought, to scare the living bejesus out of me.]  I never mentioned that I'd done this 'stuff' back in Toronto.  Down I went as jaws dropped simultaneously.  T'was all a part of the soundtrack so I'm not gonna dump on Jan and Dean just because Brian wasn't a full time member of their duo.  "Shitty"?  Trying to discredit Brian here are we?  Not I.  He nailed it.  And as a result so did Jan and Dean...at least for awhile.

So they weren't the Beach Boys.  Big deal.  No one else was either...try as they might.  [Back in the USSR?  Really?  Not even close.]  That doesn't mean that the Beatles were "shitty" too does it?  W/O Brian there are  P L E N T Y  of Beach Boys recordings which don't hit the bottom rung of his lowest water marks either.  Doesn't necessarily make them all "shitty".  They're just not as good.

----------------------------------------------------

Oh and as for Barbara Ann...I really dislike the Dean sound in there.  I think it detracts from the over-all qualitative potential of the recording.  Not in a million years would I have kept that in the mix...but old "dog ears" heard it working...and presto!!!...he was right.  [as per usual Mike...and Howie]

That's not necessarily fair as all of those songs came AFTER Brian and the Boys had recorded both the Surfin' Safari and the Surfin' USA lp's.  The studio expertise Brian brought to the table grew in leaps and bounds with each passing release.  Same too of most others in the 'biz'.  So ...  technically speaking ... the songs you're comparing to the Beach Boys first 2 albums have advanced techniques working in their favour.  [and they also have progressing assistance from Brian to help spur them to higher heights.]

But not enough clout to stop Capitol from releasing his mono stuff in Duophonic..

Neither did The Beatles up until Sgt Pepper, in terms of how the music was mastered or mixed for stereo and mono. It was Capitol's way of being able to sell mono and stereo copies of the same albums, and at this time (mid 60's) a stereo album cost a dollar or so more than the same mono copy. For Sgt Pepper, Emerick and Martin attached a memo when they sent the finished mix to EMI's mastering department demanding it be mastered exactly the same as they turned it in. Mono and stereo, with no excessive EQ or rejiggering. I believe that was the first time they had to clout to do so.

Capitol's mastering dept. was a little different to say the least.

A few comments and some questions for discussion:

The players Phil used were among hundreds in the union book. All you had to do if you wanted a drummer was check who was available and either through a contractor you'd hire or on your own, you could put in a call and hire them. Drummers alone, there were dozens if not a few hundred names for hire. Same with guitarists and whoever else. But the point with Spector is that the same basic core group of musicians he was using regularly became the same core group Brian and Jan would start using when their productions warranted those larger groups. It's no accident Hal and Earl were often the drummers, Billy, Carole, Tommy, Ray, Glen were on guitars, and the list goes on.

They were not random choices, and they were far from the only competent players available to hire. Yet both Brian and Jan seemed to be hiring the same core players as Spector was using. I don't see that as coincidence as much as a clue that they were trying to do things in their productions similar if not the same as what Phil was doing.

I still come back to the fact that for those first few years, The Beach Boys were a self-contained band who played on the records and also were the same core players you'd see at a live show. Like The Beatles, for those first few years with few exceptions the BB's and Beatles played the majority of instruments you heard because they were a band. Jan and Dean obviously were not a band, nor did they have a core backing band. So the necessity existed for Jan to hire players to play on the sessions, more than it being an aesthetic or forward-thinking choice. And when both Jan and Brian started advancing and needing more textures and instruments for what they wanted to do, they hired nearly the same players Phil had been using, where once again the union book had many others to choose from.

Mark, you also made a comment earlier about Jan copying his own parts from the score for the players, and using the "best" copyists in Hollywood when more parts needed to be extracted.

In that case, Jan wasn't doing anything that wasn't standard practice. Nearly every session where a large number of parts needed to be copied would be sent to a copy house. In the case of the artists, area, and time period we're talking about, the go-to place was run by Bob Ross (not the painter, lol). In those days the copying was done using onion skin, that's how primitive it still was. And there were writers who did that kind of grunt work for Bob Ross' copy house when they were working their way up. Among them, a young Jimmy Webb if I recall. So it wasn't as much Jan using the best because of anything other than that's how it was done. And in terms of the meticulous scores Jan would write, that was how he worked. Other producers and arrangers worked differently. It reminded me of the "Philly Soul" sound in the 70's, coming out of Philadelphia International studios. Gamble and Huff would come in with sketches and head arrangements, where they'd do what Brian would do and get the players grooving on different things and develop it that way, often no more than a chord chart with some specific hits notated. Thom Bell used to come in with a briefcase full of copied parts and a full score with every note indicated to be played. Point is, both ways worked and Philly had an amazing string of hits from Gamble/Huff and Bell in the 70's. There was no better way nor more merit or kudos to either one based on how they ran their sessions because both were charting hit after hit coming out of Philly. Some wanted each note written, others wanted to see where the group of players would take the sketch.

One more point: Earlier you mentioned Brian's productions outside the Beach Boys as not having chart success. Also, how Jan had a producer's contract under his agreement with Adler, or Liberty, or whoever it was. My question is this: If Jan had a contract as producer, did he try to produce any artists outside J&D, or was he ever contracted to do so? If he did, what was the success of Jan's productions? If it's relevant to mention how Brian's outside productions stiffed on the charts, it's relevant to ask what if anything did Jan produce outside J&D that had success in the 60's when he had such a producer contract?

That's another very specific point where I think Brian was trying to emulate Spector whose whole gig was producing a stable of artists rather than one group or entity. At the end of '63 I believe he even had a separate publishing company set up with Mike for this purpose of doing what Spector was doing with Philles records and all his productions that included publishing and songwriting. I'd suggest Brian was actually going for it and taking in outside artists and projects where he could do what Spector did and produce (and write) for a number of artists outside the Beach Boys. he put it aside but never gave it up, and that was the impetus for forming Brother at the end of '66 into '67.

Question: What and when was the first session where Jan used the Bill Putnam studios, United or Western, for his productions?

Jan’s arrangements were submitted through the union, via AFM contracts similar to the tracking sessions for musicians; and he was paid separately for his arrangements, based on the number of pages, etc.

When Jan didn’t do the copying himself, he used Vern Yocum, Roy Caton, Virgil Evans, Jerrold Immel, or Roger Farris, for the most part, with a few exceptions here and there.

Having signed with Nevins-Kirshner , Jan had begun using United by October 1961. He began leading sessions regularly at United and Western by February 1962, especially for tracks for which he received the official arranging credit, whether for J&D or other artists. That’s how he transitioned into the full-time producer’s role while Lou Adler was still nominally in charge. Jan took the top spot in late ’62.

He worked also worked in the other studios in town, like Conway, Audio Arts, Radio Recorders, Sound Recorders, etc.

Earl Palmer was J&D’s sole drummer until late 1962. In ’61 and ’62 the musicians Jan worked with included guys like Ernie Freeman, Rene Hall, Tommy Allsup, Jerry Allsion, Red Callender, Gene Estes, etc. Many different players.

Jan was primarily a self-produced artist, which was rare in that era. It was just coming into play. The production companies signed Jan to arrange and produce records for Jan & Dean plus anyone else they might assign to him on a limited basis.

Jan didn’t have much outside success as a producer. But thanks to his production contract he was paid handsomely as a producer, whether the songs were hit records or not. The same went for his arrangements—a separate stream of income. He produced “Judy Loves Me” by Johnny Crawford, which barely cracked the Top 100 at #95. And he produced “Perfidia” by the Matadors, which had success overseas, hitting #1 in the Philippines.

Some of his productions remained unreleased, like the Pixie track, the songs he did for Ronnie Height, and some “Girl Group” Blossoms-related stuff. But the material, and in some cases the demos, still exists.

Jan got outside arranging credits for releases by Deane Hawley (’62), Sonny Curtis (’63), and Johnny Crawford (’63).

But Jan had a little outside success as a songwriter with chart records by Billy Ward & His Dominoes (1958); the Angels (1963); the Rip Chords (1964); Johnny Crawford (1964); and Ronny and the Daytonas (1965). And Jan’s composition “Bucket T” was on the Who’s #1 EP Ready Steady Who.

Jan had some interesting outside writing credits that didn’t chart, such as “Cherish My Love” by the Glens (1960, a Jan & Arnie era composition), “Just For Tonight” by Judy & Jill (’63), and “He Don’t Love Me,” a B-side for Shelley Fabares (’64), and others.

I mentioned Brian’s outside stuff because the prevailing opinion in Beach Boys Fandom is that Jan brought nothing to the table. So by that logic, all of Brian’s outside compositions for the artists I mentioned should have been instant hit records—but they were not.

There is one area that the BB copied from Jan and Dean.  Just watched the 1980 live performance of J and D and it was like a look into the future of what BB shows would be during the 80s and 90s. Oldies heavy, shtick ( the skateboarder), the beach wear, the DWD/DDD medley.

It is highly significant to this discussion that Jan Berry, very much at the vangaurd of this new breed of record producer, was one of Brian's initial mentors.

It is also worth pointing out that the rather dismissive attitude towards Jan Berry on this thread is identical to the derision that used to be directed towards the Beach Boys. When I became a fan in the 80s, it was an upwards struggle to convince people there was something of value to this music when they had already made their minds up.

Jan Berry was no Brian Wilson, but don't dismiss his productions so readily. Here is the confident, self contained producer that Brian observed prior to his own adoption of, and recognition within, the (freshly redefined) role of producer.

Nobody has been minimizing Jan Berry for the fun of it. This all goes back to the original posts in the thread from the original poster, which did not propose that we find *some way* in which Jan may have been some sort of influence on Brian. The early posts proposed a relatively specific set of areas in which Brian was directly influenced by Jan *AND* Dean. The original post did not mention solely Jan Berry's early era role being self-produced. It mentioned arrangements, falsetto voicing, use of the Wrecking Crew, and so on.

Pointing out that Jan Berry produced his own records and made a lot of money off of his production work even when many of his records were unsuccessful and in some cases unreleased (people barely remember *Brian's* outside production works, who actually remembers Jan's?), has nothing to do with how much Brian's work was informed by or influenced by Jan, or Jan & Dean.

I'm not sure if some folks jumped into the middle of this thread and saw people pointing out why maybe J&D have been overrated by some subset of BB fans, and got defensive because it appeared as though people were just randomly trashing J&D. But the original crux of the thread was a (in my opinion) heavily overstated series of posts concerning how *big* of an influence Jan Berry and Jan&Dean were on Brian and his work. I think in tandem with this often comes a penchant for lumping Jan Berry and Brian Wilson in together as peers. And that just was not the case at all, either in terms of looking at what they were outputting in the earliest BB era of 1963, and *certainly* is not the case when we take a step back and look at their catalog of music and impact on other music, etc., even just focusing in on the pre-accident 1966-and-earlier era.

I think a once-in-a-blue-moon reality check regarding J&D is appropriate. And frankly, I think people have gone relatively lightly on actually examining J&D's work separately from anything to do with potential influence on Brian and the BBs. That is, over all these years I think people haven't been rampantly pointing out the many flaws of pre-1967 J&D, including their mediocre singing, overall lack of originality, the stiff quality of their output, and so on.

As I pointed out in an early post, trying to over-blow Jan Berry's work or talent or his and J&D's influence on Brian Wilson, etc., all does a *disservice* to Jan Berry and J&D, because it then forces folks to point out their limitations rather than being able to just focus on the good material they did produce.

I still don't understand why people can't just say they like something, or that something is good. It always seems to need some additional context. It has to be "influential" or "trail-blazing", or it has to be "better than" something else, or "as good as" something else.

Here's an exercise: Try talking about music (or a movie, etc.) that you like *without* mentioning any other artist/band/album/movie, etc.  

That's not to say looking at how artists *did* influence each other can't be an interesting topic. But if you really think Jan Berry was a major influence on Brian (or a peer on par with Brian), be prepared for people who know their stuff to point out why this isn't the case very much.

There are many people who major artists like Brian Wilson came in the orbit of, people who by virtue of simply being older or having already attained some level of professional status, were at some point "ahead" or "on par." Look at the Beatles, who *backed* Tony Sheridan, who comparatively at that point was a big dude who could actually get a record contract. Tony Sheridan was also (as apparently not many folks know) actually a really good guitarist. An okay singer. But the point is, there was a brief moment in time where he was "ahead" of the Beatles, and then they were maybe technically peers for a microsecond as the Beatles quickly surpassed all who they came into contact with. Read Lewisohn's "Tune In"; there *were* other British bands who were "bigger" than the Beatles on some level at some point during their ascent.

But what makes the Beatles or Brian/the BBs different from *most* artists is that they surpassed nearly all if not literally all of their contemporaries *very quickly.*

Thanks to Hey Jude for mentioning the specific context that generated this thread. Nate's first sentence that initiated the discussion was "I'd say that Jan & Dean and The Beach Boys had an equal role in terms of developing what we know as the California Sound." As I said earlier I don't let these type of historical inaccuracies go by without countering with some evidence which I did, strong statistical evidence. I also have my opinion which I also stated as "my opinion". If you think the Beach Boys and J&D are equal in the way Nate stated or any other important way then you are at 180 degrees opposite of what I think. Most of you know who I am. Many of you have read my published stuff, thank you for that. I'm not in the habit of saying or writing things that I don't feel strongly about. This is one. Some others that I have ranted about seemed to change some minds through the years. Remember when Dennis Wilson was widely considered the least talented of the Beach Boys? He was not, and I didn't let that stand when someone stated it. Remember when David Marks was widely considered to have no importance to the Beach Boys genesis and history? That was untrue and I didn't let it stand when stated that way. Remember when so many people assumed the Beach Boys barely played instruments on any of their classic material? That was factually untrue and I did not let it stand when stated as such. I will do the same when someone states that Jan & Dean and the Beach Boys are somehow equal in their historical importance. It's what I do.

Many have called out Howie for his posts, posts which I find hilarious and delightfully honest. Courageous too, because he is a public figure, he makes his living as a rock writer, he posts his REAL NAME on this board, and takes the heat for his posts if they hit a raw nerve. It's easy to hide behind a funny board name "Tommy Wiseau" or whatever and throw bolts at a known entity. But Howie has his opinions, he posts his name when he states them, and if you meet him in person he'll do the same because he's confident and he knows rock history as well as anyone I've ever met. I've met and talked to Brian Wilson a dozen or two dozen times, and I know Howie knows Brian way better than I ever will. I've only been to Brian's house once, Howie drove me there. When Howie lays down an opinion, regardless of how much you disagree, remind yourself this is someone who has actually discussed Jan Berry with Brian, one on one, many times. He doesn't need to rely on a 18 year old quote to back his knowledge up. He can just ask Brian, or refer to an interview he did with Brian 10 years ago, 9 years ago, 8 years ago and on. I think we all benefit from having someone with that kind of access in our midst even if you don't agree with his take. At least his take is coming from a place of real knowledge and direct access.

I've devoted a big chunk of my life to learning, researching and sharing the things I've uncovered, discovered and grown to know about the Beach Boys. One of those is definitely that Jan & Dean don't deserve to be credited as equals to the Beach Boys. J&D have made a mark, they made some successful records, Jan had some success as a producer and then met with a tragic incident, it's all fascinating and some of it relates to the Beach Boys story. But the Beach Boys are something beyond Jan, and beyond most things in pop music. They were kissed by the spirit, by God or whatever. They are on a level that is still underrated in many circles, but as time goes on more and more people understand. Brian and his brothers, cousin and friend and neighbor were the conduit of a unique spiritual gift for the world. It will live as long as people listen to music. IMO they have no equal.

Well, hopefully neither of those posts were directed at me, as I've made it clear I'm not saying they were even close to equal. Perhaps a re-reading of my posts is in order?

I think it's an interesting discussion, Jan's  position as a self produced artist, which as Mark Moore has pointed out was rare, and whether or not this was an influence on Brian. Are people really denying Jan was an early mentor to Brian? Also Brian saw a lot of studio techniques for the first time through Jan.

But perhaps he put his hands over his eyes.


I realise a discussion about the complexity of human relationships is difficult on an Aspergers Friendly site such as this, so I'll back off now before the people who 'know their stuff' put me in my place.   :lol

Peace guys :)

What Jon said.

Especially about the Tommy Wiseau stuff. Ad hominem stuff *about people on this board* should never be allowed, but it's especially annoying coming from a person who posts under a full pseudonym.

Great post. Possibly the best I've seen on this board in quite some time.  :bow :bow

Legit not trying to be a jackass, but we should have a J&D/other BBs influenced acts subforum.

Mark A. Moore and GF know their sh*t!!!!! 8)

I don't consider J&D to be equal to The Beach Boys. Never have. I do, however, think that they deserve a mention along with The Beach Boys as being in the same genre of music(surf, car,), as well as being influential in the overall California sound of the time.

[quote author=Hickory Violet Part IV link=topic=25801.msg631582#msg631582 date=1520271049.


I realise a discussion about the complexity of human relationships is difficult on an Aspergers Friendly site such as this, so I'll back off now before the people who 'know their stuff' put me in my place.  :lol



[/quote]WTF???  :brow

WTF???  :brow
[/quote]

I work with lots of Aspies. Fantastic people, but due to their inflexibility of position, their obsession with tiny details (without the ability to see the human / social side), and their near pathological need to be right, entering into any sort of debate with them is an exercise in futilty.

Apparently, most people are on the spectrum to some degree,  but on a niche music site you can probably times that by 10  :lol


 

Just a reminder that when someone posted here implying the people on the board were sociopaths, I'm pretty sure they were immediately banned.

Having been on the internet for around 25-ish years, I'm pretty sure any group of congregating people don't like to be labeled with anything, and certainly not a medical diagnosis of Asperger Syndrome. Implying it's okay for you to make fun of the topic because you work with people with the condition, or implying most people are "on the spectrum", will not tend to quell the offense people (rightly) take by such comments. It's offensive to the board and offensive to people who have the condition.

I'm personally not a fan of a *participating* member of a board coyly stepping back and folding their arms and diagnosing the entire board with a condition.

Not that implying individual members of this board are afflicted with any particular medical condition would be any more appropriate.

I'm less offended by the content of the comment and more annoyed that someone would go on a board and make such a judgment and *not* understand that it could offend just about any member of the board.

Aspergers people are brilliant, and whilst I was exaggerating,  there are several Aspies on this site, most definitely. Aspergers people aren't sociopaths,  but they are tough to debate with.

It was meant affectionately, if anything, but thanks for 'Jude'splaining' things for me

No kidding.

"Aspies" is not exactly the friendliest term, anyway. And to use Aspergers as an insult is quite offensive.

7 day time out- it may be shortened, or may be lengthened. I need to discuss it with Craig and come to a consensus as far as length goes.

I agree with the notion that The Beach Boys and Jan & Dean aren't equal, in terms of their overall output and impact. They didn't revolutionize the world with stuff like Pet Sounds and Good Vibrations. My opinion is that they, together, created the California Sound. Or maybe I'll expand a little. Brian created the California Sound and Jan refined it. Production wise, Surf City was better than anything Brian had done to this point. Production value. All of Brian's songs from this era sound like vocals over pretty thin backing tracks. But Surf City's backing track sounded huge!! Two drum sets, guitars, bass, piano, all locked in playing as tight as The Wrecking Crew ever did. They're are multiple voices singing the lead vocal, including BW, slightly off-mic. It just has a huge sound! And after Surf City is cut, you see Brian's backing tracks begin to evolve. I'd say you can definitely hear Jan's influence on the backing track of Fun, Fun, Fun. This was probably Brian's cleanest "Jan-est" production to date. Was he conscious of this? Who knows. But you've got the doubled guitars, two drum sets (via overdubs. Pretty sure Denny first, Hal overdubbing), double tracked vocals, and an overall tight sound.

The Beach Boys are the alltime greatest band in my opinion. Hands now. No one has ever, or will ever, equal them. But I do think The Beach Boys and Jan & Dean played an equal role in developing what we know as the California SOUND. Not lyrical content (surf, cars, girls, etc) but SOUND. Jan had been cutting records with Wrecking Crew, falsetto leads, and thick harmonies for years. Not saying that Brian copied Jan. But I think Brian took Four Freshman, Chuck Berry, Phil Spector, AND JAN BERRY/JAN&DEAN, when developing his own sound. Some more than others obviously. The Four Freshman would be the most impact influence I think.

Just to reiterate again, and I truly mean this as advice for people who haven't seen this type of thing go down on this board in the past:

It's not okay to poke fun at some medical condition because you know people with it, or profess to know a lot about it, or contend a bunch of positive things in relation to the condition. It's still potentially offensive.

Also, I find the idea of trying to "diagnose" anybody on this board or anywhere else on the internet based purely on writings to be highly dubious. That someone would claim to be able to diagnose a condition like Asperger based solely on message board postings also of course calls into question that person's actual expertise on the subject.

"Surf City" is a cool track. I don't think it's nearly as epic as you're painting it. It has never struck me as sounding "huge." It sounds like a group of session musicians knocking out a clean performance. It sounds good. I have nothing bad to say about it. But it doesn't "sound" huge even in the context of early 1963. It doesn't have the bombast of a Spector production. The vocals don't sound nearly as rich as even the *earliest* BB recordings (and, not to hammer the point too hard, but both Jan and Dean were mediocre singers, borderline flatting and sharping occasionally).

I also wouldn't call the early 1963 Brian Wilson backing tracks "thin." Setting aside what others have already discussed (that the BB's were a *self-contained* band and therefore in the early era played on their own records), I'd say a number of the backing tracks on the "Surfin' USA" album sound full and thick. (Ironically, I'd say it was when Brian got into the 1965-66 era where his lush backing tracks were *mixed* a bit thin-sounding in favor of vocals due to the way he was bouncing tracks, etc.). The title track "Surfin' USA", "Farmer's Daughter", etc.

If we want to move just a *few months* past the recording of "Surf City" and bring in the "Surfer Girl" album, then it's even more stark. Brian's production, with mostly the core band playing (with Al augmenting on some tracks) sound easily as full and lush as "Surf City."

Again, we can talk about the positive attributes of "Surf City" without trying to say its production "betters" the work of Brian Wilson.  

Just like, I wouldn't kick of a review of how great "Pet Sounds" is by first contending above all else that it's better than anything the Beatles had done up to that point. It's not that there's not room to allow for such an opinion. But it's going to undercut the praise that "Pet Sounds" absolutely deserves.

I'm not saying I've never fallen into the trap of describing someone by comparing it to something else, but I truly think sometimes it's best to try to praise something *without* saying it's better than something else.

You're right. I fully regret using a persons looks to make a point, especially when I was trying to make a point about standing up for overweight people and handicapped people. I stepped into a trap of my own making and I regret it. Though I have issues with Howie and how he portrays others, he didn't deserve that kind of treatment and also deserved a true apology, which I have not given him. I don't expect him to accept it and that's okay. The only issue I truly take with him is that he is claims I'm looking at photos of his family. Not quite. I have no interest in that, nor do I think that's right in any way. I had remembered what he looked like from years ago seeing him tagged in a Facebook friend's post (I think) and was just Googling him to check. Now was that right, just to prove a point? ABSOLUTELY NOT.

Maybe it's the fighting with the Cam Mott's and the AGD's, maybe it's the constant politicization of the world, but regardless, it's on me for breaching the boards rules. I've stepped back and realized how stupid it is to be fighting with other Beach Boys fans!!! There aren't zillions of people who can discuss the grandness of "Wake The World" and "Do You Like Worms" and "Caroline No" and therefore, I think I need to chill and be happy that there is a great forum like this to discuss The Beach Boys.

Anyway, with all that said, I think I do deserve to be penalized for not following board rules and attacking a valued member in that way. While I hope I could keep my reading privileges I think it would be fair if I were banned from posting for a month or two. I truly regret what I did and maybe I can make a comeback if the moderators and other posters find it right. If not, I understand. Sorry for clogging up this interesting thread with this, but I felt it had to be done.

Hey Jude, I'd agree with that. One artist's achievement doesn't take away from anothers. I was just comparing Brian and Jan's work at the time.

What a relief!!!

The adult male who posts THOUSANDS of times on a message board using numerous aliases assures me, he's only stalking/collecting photos of ME -- and NOT my small children.
Whew!!!

Tommy -- or whatever your name is -- stop PM-ing me.

I think we all tend to, at least occasionally, take ourselves a bit too seriously.  It can lead to some of the arguments on this board.  My opinion is no more valid than anyone else's here, because we're all entitled to our opinions.  I happen to think that part of the charm of Jan and Dean was their not taking themselves too seriously.  Others find fault with that aspect of Jan and Dean.  To each his own.

You seem to have an obsession with looking at photos of small children. I would guess that something that you yourself need to deal with on your own sir.

Mods???

Yeah mods.....where are ya? I'm being painted as some kind of child stalker by a man who at one moment talks about his children and then at another time encourages our board members to use dugs instead of listening to Jan & Dean.

Jesus. I’m at work, think I’m going to enjoy a well earned lunch and I see this crap.

Both are getting at least a 7 day time out. Nothing personal, I like both of you, but a line’s been crossed. Final length of time away from board will be determined once I have had some time to really sort this out. All I know is this has gone too far.

I think I’m friends with both of you on Facebook... message me later and we can talk about this further.

Or email me at fear2stop@yahoo.com

The best commentary from Brian Wilson comes from the actual era in question:

Jan Berry: “The chord changes . . .”

Brian Wilson: “It sounds great.”

Jan: “The chord changes are sophisticated.”

Brian: “Ya know, the bitchenest part of the whole song is that last note . . . ”

Jan: “Huh?”

Brian: “Whaaaaahh!! It’s so bright! Everything comes out . . . ”

Jan: “See, I told ya.”

Brian: “I got tears in my eyes the first time I heard it.”

Jan: “I told ya you’d like it.”

Brian: “If you could get a song to sound like that all the way through . . . That would be killer.”

Brian: “It’s a fat son of a bitch.”

Jan: “[To engineer Bones Howe] An exact dual there?”

Bones Howe: “Uh-huh. As even as I can . . .”

Brian: “[To Jan] That ‘Dead Man’s Curve.’ You changed it . . . It sounds good on the radio.”

Brian: [refering to "Ride the Wild Surf"] “But fuckin’ . . . God, the lyrics! The idea behind the whole thing is so good, ya know?”


Jan Berry and Brian Wilson
Discussing the arrangement while doubling the lead vocal for "Ride the Wild Surf"
United Recording, Studio B
February 16, 1964

Dialog excerpt

My apologies  by the way I came off in my post. I'm checking the board at work in between calls and responded in a way that, although wasn't my intention, came off in a a manner completely different from how I intended it to be. I should've waited until I got home (probably duplicating my mistake with this post) but I'm trying to handle business here too and didn't want anyone to think I was ignoring their concerns

I love that exchange between Brian and Jan, Mark. The first time I read it in your book, I could practically hear their voices! What's the status of the Jan Berry bio?

Agreed Nate, kinda bittersweet for both of them....

I'm not sure what's going down, and it's certainly not up to me as I'm not a mod, but I don't think Howie Edelson should be getting a time out from the board for vociferously defending himself against a particularly personal attack.

As Jon mentioned, Howie posted some brutally honest assessments of Jan & Dean. If someone wants to take anyone to task and debate on that topic, I don't think anybody has a problem with that. I'm sure Howie or Jon (or myself, or anyone else) can more than handle themselves in defending their positions.

What an honest and even scathingly honest assessment of Jan and Dean doesn't warrant is someone then attacking him personally (and by personally I don't mean "your opinion sucks", but rather an attack of a personal nature having nothing to do with the topic of the thread or the board for that matter). Howie responded to that guy with an appropriate level of zeal and pushback.

As anyone will note if they look back at my posts, I rarely jump into this sort of stuff. And I'm certainly *not* a fan of the "don't run off insiders and honored guests!" argument. I've indeed seen "insiders" and "honored guests" post some unfortunate things (some perhaps deserving a ban, some not). But I'm looking at Howie's posts as I would anyone else's, and I don't think he should be given a time out for forcefully defending himself. This just wasn't one of those "both sides are out of line" situations. That Howie had to respond in the manner he did was unfortunate, I don't think anybody wants to see any of this. But his response was justifiable.

yeah, Howie gave strong opinions. And I personally think more of Jan  and Dean. But he does not merit a ban for 'self defence'.
The whole debate has apples being compared to oranges .....decades after the fact. At the time, J and D had maybe run their course. They sure faced as challenge of how to proceed.

There are definitely interesting things to discuss about J&D. I think their story and the topic is best discussed *not* through the prism of the Beach Boys' story, and certainly not through a discussion of how their music stacks up against each other.

Similarly, the worst books and articles on the topic of, say, Pete Best, are the ones that try to contend he was actually an amazing drummer and as good or better than Ringo. Pete Best has a truly interesting story, but I would never start it by trying to give him too much credit for the Beatles success, etc.

Far from a perfect analogy, I admit.

I would like to take this time to apologize to Howie now that I have read the full thread. I wish I had been able to step in sooner before it escalated; as some of you may know, I work long shifts and right now I can monitor the board when it is slow in between customers or on my break/lunches. We were busy yesterday and I had an impulse reaction based on the last several posts. My post was more directed to Tommy Wiseau's last couple of posts, although it may have come across otherwise. That was not my intention. Howie's time out has been lifted.

Now, let's please get back on topic .

O.K.  On topic.  How much money...does anyone with true research material available know?...do you think Brian made off of his association with Jan and Dean?  Approximately?  A fair chunk no?  Would he have made anywhere near that amount working in tandem, in any way, with anyone else in the biz?  Jan and Dean must have been fairly good to the bottom line not just for Brian...but also for Roger and Michael.  AND...if you count Barbara Ann...for all of the 'Boys'.  A #2 hit single and a number 6 L.P. [3 in the U.K.] must generate some kind of pocket money.  I wonder how much Dean, even with his lesser degree of talent, made for his entirely nasal falsetto contribution?  There must have been some tit...for tat?

As for the set-to contained here-in?  It wasn't necessary.  Insiders should not be chased away...BUT...  Come on.  There were 2 people dancin'.  1 of them credited for sh*t he didn't do...or say.  Silly.  And bullshit!!!

Now...back to the topic.

The evidence strongly indicates, certainly among the collaborations between Brian and Jan, that it was J&D that was benefitting far more than Brian. Both contemporaneously and into the future, Brian had far more success with other collaborators (or no collaborator), while Jan & Dean saw some (most?) of their biggest hits (certainly the most well-known/remembered) come from the BW collaborations.

Sure, if we want to view Jan and Dean's position vis-à-vis Brian to be along the lines of  "Peter and Gordon" to Lennon/McCartney, then I guess Brian could have viewed several J&D tracks as a nice little sideline of a little extra money from songs given away.

I've never viewed Dean's appearance on "Barbara Ann" as something that pushed it near the top of the charts. It was always a little trivia bit DJs could offer on the radio. But if anything, his voice mars the recording.

But in every tangible way (and in my opinion every qualitative aspect), J&D were the beneficiaries of the association on every level with Brian and the BBs.

I don’t know any numbers for Brian, but here’s some insight:

By the time “Surf City” was released, Jan’s career was governed completely by Screen Gems-Columbia Music, Inc. Jan was a staff employee who ultimately answered to Don Kirshner in New York.

Consequently, every song Jan wrote or co-wrote was automatically published by Screen Gems, who also owned the master recordings. So in choosing to write songs with Jan, Brian forfeited any publishing for his efforts. But he did get a songwriting royalty.

With Brian’s original compositions for Sea of Tunes, he owned both the writer’s share and the publisher’s share. But for his compositions with Jan, Brian only got a writer’s share.

The only exception with regard to J&D was “Sidewalk Surfin’.” Because it used the previously published melody from “Catch a Wave,” Jan was legally forbidden from sharing a writing credit for the lyrics. In other words, his Screen Gems contracts stipulated that he could not have any business connection to outside companies or competitors. Thus the publishing for “Sidewalk Surfin’” went to Sea of Tunes, the original publisher of the melody. And Roger Christian got a writer’s royalty for the lyrics.

Brian’s vocal participation on J&D records was illicit and therefore unpaid—at least officially. Same for Dean’s participation on “Barbara Ann.”

With regard to Dean, he shared half of the Nevins-Kirshner/Screen Gems artist royalty with Jan (50-50). The Screen Gems songwriting contract was 100 percent Jan’s; and the Screen Gems production contract was 100 percent Jan’s.

For shows and appearances, Jan often paid Dean out of his own pocket. Jan also paid commissions to manager Lou Adler out of pocket.

Jan made a lot of personal payments. His canceled checks reveal a “who’s who” of the industry—musicians, singers, engineers, etc. He was notorious for scheduling odd hours in the studio. Consequently, his royalties were docked regularly, but he never cared. It was all about what was best for him, or convenient for his personal timetable. When the engineers worked overtime, he often paid them under the table beyond what they were due through the Union.

Thanks, Mark, that's great stuff.

Let's summarize...

Dean really had very little, and perhaps no, influence on Brian's falsetto.

Jan and Dean are not on an equal level with the Beach Boys.  But they certainly had some killer singles, largely thanks to Brian. 

Brian was probably a lot more influenced by Spector and the Four Freshmen (and Gershwin) than he was by Jan.

But Jan does rank just below the aforementioned trio of influences, in terms of Brian's developing his musical chops.

Jan and Dean are not everyone's cup of tea.  But, outside of sites like this one, neither are the Beach Boys.  To each his own.

Not a bad thing...

Read my post... then we'll have world peace!

I sure as hell did not expect this thread to turn out to be all this...

Glad we have our own opinions. I really respect most of you all on here, and we feel like a little family.  :)


However, next time I wanna praise J&D, maybe I'll head over to their message board  :lol :lol :lol

Thanks Mark.  From Surf City 'til Batman...I was a fan.  Before and after...not so much.

Who is Lee Marshall? ;)

Mark, one thing I'm curious about is why Brian wasn't credited on Folk City, given that the melody is largely a rehash of Surf City. Have you addressed that anywhere?

Tony the Tiger.

It's an interesting question. "Folk City" was originally a different song called "Fred Fern," but they remade it into "Folk City." The "Two Girls For Every Boy" melody and verse melody are completely different, but the chorus melody is the same as "Surf City," though the backing harmonies in the chorus are vastly different. Jan may have discussed it with Brian. I don't know.

By October 1965 when "Folk City" was recorded, Jan and Brian had not worked together in more than a year. Their last collaboration had been "Sidewalk Surfin'," which was recorded in July and August 1964. Brian never worked long with any single outside songwriting collaborator, and his tenure with Jan fit that mold.

Sorry...No.  I can't honestly let that thought go without an explanation.  THAT Lee Marshall worked mostly in the U S of A.  Real name Marshall Aaron Mayer.  Marshall passed away 4 years ago this April at the age of 64.  His first name was actually Marshall.  My last name really is Marshall.  And I'm older than 64.   He did radio and AWA Wrestling on TV and he was also the voice of Tony.  I do radio, did TV and National voice overs for dozens of different clients.  I don't think my namesake ever MC'd Beach Boys shows either.  I have.

I just wanted to clear that up because I don't want folks thinking I'm someone else whose body of work  was as distinct as Lee's/Marshall's.  He was an American.  I am a Canadian.  I used Add Some when I joined up here because at that time there were 2 other Lee's actively posting.  Nowadays?  Not so much.  Besides...I didn't want to be accused of hiding behind some 'board' name.

Anyway...Carry on

mtaber posted "Let's summarize...

Dean really had very little, and perhaps no, influence on Brian's falsetto.

Jan and Dean are not on an equal level with the Beach Boys.  But they certainly had some killer singles, largely thanks to Brian.

Brian was probably a lot more influenced by Spector and the Four Freshmen (and Gershwin) than he was by Jan.

But Jan does rank just below the aforementioned trio of influences, in terms of Brian's developing his musical chops."

That seems pretty accurate...although there may well have been others, simultaneously engineering with Brian at the helm, who may have contributed some good ideas.

Hang on a tic. Are you the voice of CTV?

Up til 3 years and a few months ago yes.  Like for 15 or 16 years.  It was great fun.  Doing the Olympics in Vancouver [Winter] and also for the summer games in London...those were career highlights.  I'm a lucky SOB.  Period.  'Nuff said.
-----

Anyway...please...back to Brian...Dean and Jan.

Lol, wow what a coincidence, I was mostly just joking, I had no idea that the two of you had so much in common when I made my original post.

To blur the lines even further, as I look at wikipedia it says that Other Lee had a stint in Windsor, Ontario, and while there he had a segment called "20/20 News".   :lol

Yes he did.  I worked with people who also worked with Lee at 'LW...including Pat Holiday and the legendary Rosalie Trombley.  Dick Smythe, and Charlie O'Brien and way...WAY back in pre Lee days...Bud Davies.  Those associations all happened in Toronto between 1972 and 1994ish.  Imagine how weird it must have seemed to many of them.  :o  Every now and then, through my agent, I'll get a letter from someone in Europe or Japan looking to get an autograph from the voice of 'Tony the Tiger'.  It's been about a year since the last one...close to 3 years after Lee passed on to the 'great control room in the sky'.  

Through it all I also got to meet, interview, hang out with and MC shows for a ton of folks...not including Jan or Dean but definitely INcluding the Beach Boys a bunch 'o' times.  [and the Beached Boys once.]  Spent some terrific quality time with Carl in Toronto and an interesting and revealing post show 90 minutes' or so' with Bruce in Winnipeg.  The only member of the group I never saw live or in person in any way was David...oh, and short term 'boy' Glen Campbell]  I've spoken ultra briefly with Brian, Al, Ricky and Blondie and more so with Michael E...you know...the old manager's brother.  Sorry to say I've never made it my business to see,  meet or hear John Stamos.

---------------------------------------------

I hear than Dean isn't really all that friendly a guy.  THAT I don't know to be true.  :-\

Dick Smythe's rants on Channel 47 were a crucial part of my childhood.

Nice thread.

1. "My opinion is that they, together, created the California Sound. Or maybe I'll expand a little. Brian created the California Sound and Jan refined it."

 Aren't the building blocks of the so described California Sound as created by Brian the result of the blending together of Four Freshmen type vocal arrangements (Brian), Chuck Berry (Carl), Fender instruments (initially) (Carl & Dave), Do-wop vocal arrangements (Mike), and Phil Spector productions (Brian)...? - I would think that would be Do-wop records generally, not only specifically those recorded by J&A and  J&D? (Just look at the Party LP outtakes...)


In what way did Jan 'refine' it?


2.  "Jan had been cutting records with Wrecking Crew, falsetto leads, and thick harmonies for years" , - yes, and so had many other people...

Where did this J&D style actually come from? It's origins are surely in Do-Wop, wasn't that what J&D were doing initially... (Although personally I would certainly hesitate to describe their Dore material as possessing 'thick harmonies'.) Jan did not invent Do-Wop, he adopted the style from other popular records, just like Brian via Mike did...

Listen to Heart & Soul, the vocal arrangement is just a knock-off of I Wonder Why by Dion & The Belmonts... Especially the falsetto at the end.

The arrangement for Linda has been considered by some to be inspired by Sherry by The Four Seasons...



3. Regarding the claims of what Brian actually learnt from Jan with respect to the 'business' and studio techniques and so on, where does Brian's time spent with Usher sit with this...?

Happy Birthday, Dean!!!

Hell yeah, I hope I'm looking that good at 78!