The Smiley Smile Message Board

What exactly happened in Apr, May and June 1967? There are some key questions that remain. 1) When was the fate of Smile discussed? If you look at the tour schedule, you see that the group was on tour from April 13 until May 20 1967.  So at the Vegetables sessions the handwriting was on the wall-Smile was not going to be finished and couldn't be till June. Do you think there were heavy conversations with Brian about this at the sessions in April? Or was this just left unspoken?  2) When the group returned from Europe at the end of May-do you think that they had already decided to take more control of their career or was this all Brian's decisions?  3) Do you think there was an emotional meeting where the decision was made to say Produced by the Beach Boys on Smiley Smile or did Brian suggest it without a heavy discussion?  4) Did the Beach Boys put up any fight when Brian said he didn't want to use the Smile recordings and instead wanted to make mostly new tracks for Smiley Smile?-it cost them a lot of money  5) Do you think that there were arguments about not playing Monterey or did everyone passively accept this?- in retrospective interviews they always blame Brian  6) Considering the desire in the late 60s for any Brian Wilson compositions they could lay their hands on- did the group just passively allow Can't Wait Too Long-clearly brilliant-to sit in the vault? Its very odd that they didn't grab it for 20/20-they didn't seem to care about Brian's wishes when it came to other songs he preferred not be released

1) I don't think it was ever clearly discussed between the band and management. Brian always took care of finishing albums and delivering them to Capitol, while the band went on tour. Why fix it when it ain't broken?

2) I don't think the issues were openly debated. The whole situation progressed to the Smiley Smile sessions, at least it was an album ready for release, and it was time to move on to the next tour and album.   

3) I don't think the producer credit was that important to Brian. Brian was still calling the shots in 1967, but the credit change suited both parts just fine. The rest of the band would be seen less by the press as Brian's puppets and Brian would be released from some of the pressure.   

4) If Brian had told them that he wasn't going to record or release anything else, maybe. As long as the ball was rolling and Brian was busy producing the new Smiley Smile tracks, there was the perspective of a new Beach Boys album, and everything would work out just fine in the end, like it always did. Maybe the band saw SS as a stopgap album, a "Party" offer, and the next one would mean back to business. Then SS bombed, Wild Honey bombed, and then there was trouble. 

5) The importance of the Monterey festival and movie is very much 20/20 hindsight. Anyway, how many bands did make the festival and went to a comercial dive anyway? I think the band was at a weird place at that moment and it was easier to just forget about it.   

6) I think 'Can't Wait too Long' as we know it was painstakingly and digitally put together by Mark Linnet in the late 80s. In 1968 it was just a bunch of related snippets that Brian had left unfinished. A hard task for anyone to take with the technology of the time. Carl seemed to be the one who grabbed Brian's unfinished works to make them releasable, he would be the guy to answer for that decision.

1) Sometime before May 6 - probably at least a week before, given publishing deadlines - someone told Derek Taylor that Smile had been scrapped.  Since the Boys were on tour, that means it must have been Brian or Murray, and I don't think Murray would have stepped in to declare something like that without Brian being behind it.  I agree with Dancing Bear - the Boys expected Brian to continue working on it while they were on tour, and when they returned if Brian needed some additional vocals from them, they would do it - or he would finish the vocals himself while they were away.  There wasn't that much needed in the way of vocals, really, depending on what Brian decided to do with the songs.  Lead vocals for Worms, Child, Cabinessence, maybe I'm in Great Shape (although there was already a group vocal session).  If Brian was following the pattern for Pet Sounds, he would end up doing most of the leads himself.

2-3) Despite some theories that have bandied about, there's no evidence of a group meeting or discussion to abort Smile - as far as the group was concerned, Smile was the "next album" and the Smile sessions simply progressed into the home studio sessions for the next album.  I'm sure Brian decided to change the production credit and that change was precipitated by the Monkees debacle, the fact the BB were now the "studio musicians" with input into arrangements, and his desire to share the credit AND the blame for what was put out under the Beach Boys name.

4) I believe there was concern on the part of the BB that the tracks Brian had been working so arduously on were now being abandoned, but there's been no report of any formal meeting to discuss those tracks.  However Capitol must have had a formal meeting to discuss the same issue as that's what prompted the memo concerning a future release of a ten track Smile - they wanted to recapture some of their production cost monies from the Smile sessions.  The Beach  Boys were more concerned with losing some incredible songs (Surf's Up, Cabinessence, Child - at least Carl must have been since he was at most of the sessions.  Mike was probably glad those were being jettisoned).

5) Brian was responsible for the artistic direction of the group and so I don't think there were any arguments over not appearing in Monterey, although Mike seemed somewhat bitter about it in his August 67 interview, so maybe he did have some words with Brian over the decision.  But if the "new music" wasn't ready, which it wasn't, then I don't think Carl or Dennis would have wanted to go to Monterey with their old act and be unfavorably compared to the hippest SF and LA groups of the time. 

While I am not saying I disagree with you, it's clear from many sources that Brian's relations with the band were really never the same again.  By 1968 he was sometimes not showing up for sessions and by 1970-71 he was expressing a certain amount of disinterest in all things Beach Boys.   I question whether-just because we don't know all the dirty laundry- there weren't arguments, etc.. There is a hint of it in a 1968 interview where Brian said that the group just about broke up after Smile.

After SMile collapsed, Brian's relations with everyone were never the same - even his relationship with himself.  His friends from Smile were dismissed, he no longer used session musicians or hung out with Hal Blaine, etc.  It seems there was a purge of "outsiders" and relations with family, although strained, were the only ones Brian continued to have - with a few important exceptions (Danny Hutton for example).  But Brian continued to work with and be extremely productive with the Beach Boys in 1967 and 1968 - four albums were basically recorded in two years, Smiley, Wild Honey, Friends, and 20/20 - and only with 20/20 was Brian more absent than present.  Carl was finishing more of the production of the songs, but Brian was clearly very involved.

That Brian quote about almost breaking up over not releasing Surf's Up has never really been explained.  Nobody else has ever recounted a disagreement over releasing or not releasing Surf's Up, so it's hard to know what he's referring to.  Maybe this is where Carl and Dennis were upset over the scrapping of the Smile session songs with Smiley Smile - Carl did call it a bunt rather than a grand slam - but it seems strange with have only this odd quote and no recountings of an incident like this by Mike and the others.  Brian had two nervous breakdowns in 1967, and maybe after scrapping Smile in May and having a nervous breakdown he talked about breaking up the group. 

December 1966 the group (ie Mike) apparently have it out over Surf's Up and possibly other SMiLE related music.  From that point forward Brian's focus is really on just getting a single out...H&V or Veggies.  There was intermittent work on a couple other things but not with the same drive as fall '66.  The rot had set in!  Through out the winter of early 1967 Brian's mental status is in a state of decline....substance use, self doubt, rejection by the band, hassles from Murry, the Capital lawsuit, and David Anderle pushing the business side of Brother Records...all of these apparent pressures push a fragile guy "over-the-edge" so to speak....in addition Brian's mental illness is either not recognized or not treated or both.

Brian hears Sgt. Pepper in April at a Vegetable's session, now that is big pressure to produce....so he thinks about it over the next couple of weeks and decides...#$@! it.....I'm done....no more SMiLE.  The BB's come home from a tour and Brian won't work at Western or Goldstar like he had been doing....the next best option?

Do the tracks as a band in a low-key way....how else could they have done it?

Well through Surf's Up (with the exception of about a third of 20/20) he attended most sessions or at least did something on each track. Even Al (who complains the most about Brian in the late sixties) cites Friends as a good time for Brian and the others. We also can see that for Sunflower Brian did write a surplus of songs left unused. Desper and Brian himself told me that every Beach Boy worked well together in from mid 67- mid 71. Other then the Old Man River blow up and the few months after that Brian's presence was intermittent, this seems to be true. For example I think the Til I Die argument was largely bull that originated with Brian's so called book. They even took it on a tape to a New York FM station in early 1971 to play on the air.  No it wasn't "the same" but it was better then anything after and in fact some of Brian's best work was done then. One last point, I have always felt the use of Stereo was a big factor in Carl taking on some of Brian's former responsibilities.

To answer some other questions
1. Mike gave an interview while on tour in May that said Smile was coming out. So at least he thought it still was. Brian did work a little on it while they were gone. They probably only knew upon their return that it was over.

2. I think the studio being in the house helped them evolve more as a group. I also think they felt that Brian needed some encouragement to finish things.

3. It again was seemingly a situation that cropped up because Brian was not being good

4. I think they just wanted an album out, they probably resented that all their hard work came to nothing. Brian was probably the least upset about it as he was the one who decided they weren't good enough.. I doubt Mike felt Smiley was that much more commercial then Smile. 
5. They all seemed angry later to some extent. but remember they were in litigation with Capitol. I think that meant they couldn't do new songs.  Brian probably cared the least because he made the decision after a awkward meeting with Alan Praiser (sp?). The story goes that the guy started forcing a chiropractor on Brian during their meeting. 

6 Can't Wait Too Long is one of perhaps several dozen Brian Wilson songs from 1967-72 that weren't used for Beach Boys albums. Let's face it, it didn't really fit any of their albums of the time.

Hardly the whole album. Depending on who you believe, Macca played either "A Day In The Life" or "She's Leaving Home" on a studio piano (at Sound Recorders). That was April 10/11 (late night session) and there were four more "Vega-Tables" sessions after that, last one on 4/14.

Of course, just to muddy the waters, one has to consider the alleged meeting in December 1966 at which the rest of the band shot down Brian's '3-movement' plan for Smile, as reported by Peter Reum here and on other forums. I don't believe for a moment that Peter would fabricate anything like this, but in the light of reported and inferred evidence, it seems somewhat unlikely. It's also been said that in 1982, when he told Peter of the meeting, Brian was not in the best functioning state.  FWIW, I asked Bruce and he said he'd never heard of any such meeting. But in the Wacky World of Wilson, who knows...

Sounds like a Blueboard conspiracy theory. You know like Mike Love blew up the towers.

It just makes me wonder- They have incredible tracks that Brian refuses to release in 1967, so they make Smiley Smile-which any fool can see was under-produced in contrast to his earlier work. When the album does poorly-is there no anger or resentment towards their leader for clearly under-producing? In the 70s and 80s the convenient argument was that Brian took too much LSD and retired to his room. We now know that this was a gross exaggeration. Mr Wilson-as persuasively argued in Leafs book- was not in bed in 1967-1971 he just was less and less interested in being a BB and slowly developed other less healthy ways to occupy his time.  So instead of the image of Brian in his room in 1967 refusing to open the door (which Mike still carts out in interviews-Ex: Endless Harmony)- we have a picture of Brian hanging out with friends, eating dinner, AROUND or at sessions, but showing less and less interest in helping.  One has to believe that at the time of 20/20 when sales were in the tank- the group believed that if Brian WANTED TO, he could still make incredible music- so was their no resentment that HE DIDN"T WANT TO? And if he developed an attitude described by Marilyn in 1995 as "if the guys think they can do better than let them try" (paraphrasing), that resentment came out of nowhere?

IMO, Brian was closer to finishing the album than we will ever know. Considering the immensity of the project and the importance of the tunes (Surf's Up, etc..), I'm sure Brian knew what was what back in the recesses of his mind. He was adamant about the CITFOTM tag on the 71 Surf's Up, Da Da has the clarinet echoing the melody just like the way the English Horn does on I'm Waiting For the Day.....all these SMiLE! trax were recorded so I'm sure he knew the melody and had some idea as to the lyrics....and also the playing order....(ie. Holidays into Wind Chimes...)

IMO

<<<the Old Man River blow up>>>


What was this?

Brian began work on Old Man River obsessively and Mike told him it was a waste of time. Brian's work with the Beach Boys on 20/20 fell off after that. He didn't return too often until 1969.

Ah. Thanks!

No problem.

an I am sure it was easy to blame Brian, which is why people don't realize how much Brian did in those years and how long it actually took him to decline. Still I don't think they really did something he didn't want until Surf's Up was remade. Until then I think the studio atmosphere was friendly, and that marks the time Dennis began to have problem with the group too. Maybe from smashing his hand and then pulling his songs off of Surf's Up. I tend to think maybe he pulled the songs because Brian was upset. The Brian myth is a great story but we know it was never black and white. The more I learn about the Beach Boys the more I think they were for the most part behind Brian, even if there was some resentment when he felt like slacking off.
Now I don't apply this from 1977 on because they all acted poorly to each other from that time on. That short breakup was the turning point and I would say they never truly got back together.

Dennis pulled his songs because he fell out with Carl over the track sequence... which could also explain why he was, in essence, absent from CATP-ST as well. Aside from the two tracks culled from his solo project, anyone hear him at all ?

I don't know about that. I believe that with "Heroes and Villains", "Darling" and "Do It Again" Brian was doing his very best to produce commercial singles.

The end of SMiLE started in November of '66 when Brian began to question the "appropriateness" of the "Fire" music. That was the point where David Anderle said they started to have problems.

Brian obviously knew what he was up to and nixed SMiLE cuz he wanted to play it safe. I can appreciate what a drag it was working with the guys & all those other "no smile" reasons.

A question that needs to be addressed.... did Spector's mind gangsters start the fire across the street to mess with Brian's fragile psyche?

I can hear his voice on "Marcella"...maybe even two parts.  But yeah, I think that was pretty much it.

I don't think this is true at all. Like many others I heard the tapes of CWTL about 1982-3 and it was basically the 4 sections which make up the 1990 release, slightly longer at each 'end'. Linnett just tidied them up a bit. The later versions had small extra parts, but the original tapes are pretty spectacular. Don't know about what Bruce played to the BB Stompers in 1979 though.

Just so - the tapes of "CWTL/BWTL" circulating late 70s/early 80s were, in essence, identical to what turned up on the 2fers.

Excepting quality, natch.  :)

Noname asked;
"A question that needs to be addressed....
did Spector's mind gangsters start the fire across the street to mess with Brian's fragile psyche?"

That's a good question. The reason we, the public, DON"T have the answer is that Brian wasn't/isn't sharing some personal experiences with us.

Based on Brian's "autobiography" though...one can, with a little imagination (remember, Einstein said "imagination is more important than knowledge") find out why Brian feared the mind gangsters and felt paranoid and why the fires made him uptight.

In the movie SECONDS there are numerous scenes that parallel Brian's LSD trip experiences. And since Brian was not sharing the contents of those trips--nobody picked up on what Brian was relating to in SECONDS (and Brian wasn't offering the info either), AND...Brian thought that somehow someone must be tapping into his mind for the secret info. And if you are familiar with some of the thinking typically associated with LSD experiences things like ESP and mind reading and vibes seem very possible.

As far as the fires across the street making Brian paranoid.....Brian was working on a new mystical album form (SMiLE). This was a project who's mystical power & potential was of uncertain quantity & quality. The one track which most embodied the idea of taking the negative trip experience to the listener was "Fire." So Brian got a little worried about what he was unleashing on the world and his growing paranoia had to do with these factors(which rarely enter into any SMiLE discussion).

As far as Phil Spector goes...Brian was always in competition with Phil (though Spector wasn't in competition with Wilson). SMiLE was to be Brian's advanced artistic leap which put him above & beyond Spector. Remember Brian was keeping lots of info about what he was up to secret. This secret info was what was putting Brian artistically beyond Spector. How could Spector compete???? Well, when Brian saw SECONDS & saw his secrets on the big screen & the main character's name is "Wilson" and stuff. Brian couldn't explain how anybody got his secret info. Perhaps it was mind gangsters & the one person who might want to do this (to compete musically) was his assumed rival, Phil Spector. Maybe Spectorr was behind it.

I stand corrected. 

Two points:

one - it's entirely possible I may be misremembering, but didn't someone (Cam Mott ?) check out the incidence of LA fires late November/early December 1966 and discover that it wasn't higher than usual at all, nor was there any fire in the vicinity of Gold Star ? Corrections welcomed.

two - Seconds was released October 5, 1966, thus had to have been filmed in spring/early summer 1966 at latest, and of course written before that... or in other words, the movie was concieved before Brian was done with Pet Sounds, much less thinking about Smile. Unless he was considering that album in late 1965, of course.

I think Bill was saying that Seconds is what made Brian think that Spector had "mind gangsters", not that it specificially had anything to do with Smile.

 

A while back, while discussing the change in Brian's voice, I mentioned that there is a line in He Came Down (right after the "Yes I Believe It" section, during the break) that sounds very much like 15 BO era- Brian (the low part that goes "EEEE-eee" ) , and was asking if Brian's voice had started to change around that time. Of course, there are 1974 recording where Brian still has a smooth voice, although it was obviously changing. Now, my question is... was this Brian just having a gruff day, or was it in fact Dennis singing that lower part?

Well...According to the Apr 18 1972 AFM Brian was at the He Come Down (vocals?) session, whereas Dennis's name is not listed. This was not the only session for the song, however.

Dennis was at Sunset Sound recording horns for "Make It Good" while the "He Come Down" basic track session (and that for "Here She Comes") was going on back at Brian's place.   But like you said, there were other sessions, and the vocals could've been added after that. 

I really like Blondie's voice on "He Come Down"...great Gospel feel.

Hey, isn't this supposed to be a SMiLE-related thread?   :)

A-HA...so that WAS Brian then.

AFM sheets have one huge, inherent drawback - the M stands for "musicians" !  While in the early days it's pretty safe to assume that the vocals were cut at the same session(s) as the track, by 1965 at the latest, this was evidently not so. Vocal sessions were the province of AFTRA, the American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. We're looking into that, but don't hold your breath.

OK - CATP-ST was the first BB album since 1967 that didn't (apparently) feature a Smile relic somewhere.

Sorted.  :)

I firmly believe that Brian did whatever he did for his own reasons and not under and irregardless of the influence of anyone else.

I think we might get Brian's retreat from his grip on the reins early, I think Brian was still firmly in control in his usual way at least through Friends even if he did let the others' material have more play. It seems to me the people who were actually at the sessions, seeing the group at work, saw Brian as firmly still in control.

If you give credence to Marilyn and Brian's claim that SMiLE was already out when they bought the home in Bellagio than SMiLE was out before the end of March [according to property records].

When the Boys knew is another question. To me most of the Boys comments in Europe that Spring seem to me to show they knew that something was a hang up with the single and album but they still feel there will be a single and an album; Bruce does not seem as clear on that to me.

I tried to get data on fire frequency from LAFD but it was only available for 1967 and 1968, as I remember, at the time so I couldn't make a comparison.
 

I agree Cam people place Brian's retreat as too early. It was a gradual process that began (on stage) as early as 1963, but even something as late as Sunflower had strong input from Brian. I remember Warner's exec Richard Berson talking about that when the Add Some Music LP was rejected, it was Brian they talked to about redoing the album. So it seems to me that Brian had the final ok until Surf's Up went out. Remember Desper has often said that when Brian wanted to work everything else stopped. In fact until Landy came back into the picutre and really started getting pushy around 1988,. I feel Brian remained an important part of the Beach Boys.

The C-man said;

"I tried to get data on fire frequency from LAFD but it was only available for 1967 and 1968, as I remember, at the time so I couldn't make a comparison."

Just thought I'd throw a thought into the mix here Cam even though it is by no means definitive proof of anything. The summer of 1966 was thermally remarkable for being an unusually hot summer. There was even a garage rock album from that time titled "Long Hot Summer."

Could the release of Fire on bootlegs in the late 80's be responsible for global warming - now accelerating with the release of BWPS?

There was a fire tragedy that took place at the beginning of November, 1966. So fires were probably on some folks' minds at the time.

http://www.coloradofirecamp.com/fire-origins/loop-fire-brief.htm (http://www.coloradofirecamp.com/fire-origins/loop-fire-brief.htm)

Its pretty mych general consensus that the Love to Say Da Da sessions were the last ones for SMiLE, but do we really know if Brian consciously said "no more SMiLE"? There were still the June Cool Cool Water and Heroes and Villains sessions. I'd like to challenge the consensus and say that the SMiLE era didn't end until June of 1967 after Heroes and Villains was finally released. Cool Cool Water was a rewrite of Da Da and the first session for it was sometime during the next month after Da Da was recorded. The Heroes and Villains sessions in June were pretty much a continuation of the work Brian was doing on it through that previous winter and spring. Most of the backing track and some of the vocals for H&V were recorded during the SMiLE sessions. If anything, June of '67 was kind of the bridge between SMiLE and Smiley Smile.

May 6th Derek Taylor wrote in the press that Smile had been scrapped.  I'm sure he wouldn't have said that if it didn't come from Brian.  Doesn't mean Brian didn't change his mind, but I feel Smile as a Wilson/Parks concept album ended in May, and sessions became "the next Beach Boys album."  Which turned out to be Smiley.  Heroes was the single that continued to be worked on, new versions of Veggies, Wind Chimes were worked on, Love reworte He Gives Speeches, and Smile was history.  Cool Cool Water was a rewrite of Dada probably like She's Goin Bald was a rewrite of Speeches - an attempt to get something commercial/releasable/finishable for the next album out of the Dada sessions.

Cam!

Hhmmm?

And nothing says "commercial" quite like Speeches/Goin Bald.

You're alive?  It seems like it's been a while.

But wasn't the May 6th announcement authorized by Mike Love and not Brian? Maybe I've been reading too much Dom Priore.

Mike didn't have any say about that at all. We don't know where the info came from but probably Brian. My understanding is that Mike assumed the LP was still coming out during the UK tour.

Haha, Dom does seem to have a Mike Vendetta, but his cultural analysis of the 60s is great, I was just reading his Smile book and despite the outright false information, I like how he takes the zoom back from Brian a little and talks about the whole scene.

Right On The Money!!!! :)

Well, I did say "an attempt" to get something commercial - obviously Smiley failed big time to do that in every way.  But I bet Mike thought Goin' Bald was way more commercial than Speeches - a "comedy" number in keeping with Vegetables perhaps?

Ok, I'm gonna go ahead and serve my head up for assasination and say....... I might be the only one who's happy we have Smiley Smile, Friends, Wild Honey, 20/20, Sunflower, Surf's Up, CATP, Holland, Love You, instead of Smile.... I beyond adore these albums and fear we'd never have gotten them in a million years if Smile has been released as planned.... I love The Beach Boys as a group and feel that Smile was too influenced by interloping factors; drugs, Van Dyke Parks (who I love! but just not as a lyricist for the Beach Boys) near total reliance on session musicians, ect... Although the Smile tracks are wonderful, they just don't touch the soul like even a lot of later 'bad" Beach Boys stuff does. And Smile as a whole is missing alot of the elements that make me love The Beach Boys.

I'm not going to assassinate you. We're all entitled to our opinions. I disagree with you on SMiLE. I think it could've opened the Beach Boys to an all new audience, it could've kicked Sgt. Pepper square in the ass and people would've seen it for the good but quite overrated record it really is, and maybe people
would have a different image of the Beach Boys had it come out. As great as their early 70s albums are, I'd give them up for a finished 1967 SMiLE, and history being set on the right path.

I share that Mike vendetta, but just because Priore doesn't like the guy doesn't mean that he should say Mike was the one who authorized the Derek Taylor article. If he's speculating, he should've made it a lot clearer that it was indeed speculation and not meant to be implied as fact.

Brian Wilson was heading down the path of mental illness.  That's a biological fact - I suspect that even if Smile in it's original form (or lack thereof) was released there would have been little difference in Brian's musical direction or level of contribution.

All the opinion that Smile's demise killed Brian as an artist is baloney IMO.  The guy was an untreated bipolar....he needed treatment he didn't and wasn't going to get.  Wild Honey would have likely been the followup and so on.

In addition, Smile's failure to be released was a legend Brian and the band were able to "milk" for years.  They got more attention for not releasing it!

I doubt the music buying public would have shunned Pepper in favor of Smile.  To make an impact Smile needed to come out late summer/fall 66....once winter set it it wasn't going to happen...Brian was way too far in the throws of psychologic decline.

**So instead of the image of Brian in his room in 1967 refusing to open the door (which Mike still carts out in interviews-Ex: Endless Harmony)- we have a picture of Brian hanging out with friends, eating dinner, AROUND or at sessions, but showing less and less interest in helping. **

I think Brian was much more of an emotional wreck than this statement indicates.

**one - it's entirely possible I may be misremembering, but didn't someone (Cam Mott ?) check out the incidence of LA fires late November/early December 1966 and discover that it wasn't higher than usual at all, nor was there any fire in the vicinity of Gold Star ? Corrections welcomed.**

Andrew, I don't know about city records corresponding to this, as Cam Mott may have indded checked those things out, which would be scientifically an astute thing to do. What I know, having lived in downtown Hollywood myself, is this. Fires in general, in that area, can make one feel very claustraphobic. The traffic from Franklin south to Melrose, and from Fairfax east to Vermont is incredible... little freeway access breaking through. I personally read an article in "The Los Angeles Free Press" from late 1966 about escalating fires in Hollywood, and several journalistic theories about why. Mark London actually has that "Freep" issue, and looking at the article might lend further insight. Also, around that same period, city officials started rummaging through the Houdini estate on Laurel Canyon. Harry Houdini himself threatened to ignite the city in fire if that kind of excavation ever happened. I'm not saying Houdini was spiritually emerging from the grave, but Hollywood has always had its own unique form of voodoo and superstition that is just as strong in the minds of Angelenos as the voodoo dogma of New Orleans. And people were talking about fires in L.A. in the winter of 1966-67. Pot, hash and acid can all induce a considerable amount of paranoia.

**I think Bill was saying that Seconds is what made Brian think that Spector had "mind gangsters", not that it specificially had anything to do with Smile.**

In the olden days of the Smile Shop Message Board, I believe someone once posted evidence that Spector had a hand in the financing of "Seconds."

The scene at the winery was shot in Santa Barbara, along Mountain Drive, the incredible setting of a true West Coast bohemian scene. Bobby Hyde was a contemporary of Upton Sinclair's in L.A., and both wrote books about the oil industry during the '20s -- Sinclair wrote "Oil!" and Hyde wrote "Crude." During the time that "Seconds" was filmed, the group who was involved with shooting the wine stomping sequence was known as the Scragg Family. It would be hard to call them an out and out cult, as I've never heard anything about religious overtones. But they WERE living communally, and no, they were not related by blood. Part of the home was the winery, and part of their outgrowth was the Scragg Family Band, whom, in 1966, were playing at the Ash Grove on Melrose. I have their only record from the era... it sounds a lot like the soundtrack to "Oh Brother Where Art Thou?"

**I share that Mike vendetta, but just because Priore doesn't like the guy doesn't mean that he should say Mike was the one who authorized the Derek Taylor article. If he's speculating, he should've made it a lot clearer that it was indeed speculation and not meant to be implied as fact.**

Domenic's great leap there, I believe, comes from the fact that Derek Taylor was the Beach Boys' head public relations man, at the time. If you plow through the press statements that Taylor was delivering, at that time, to the press, he was largely going through the New Musical Express in England and the World Countown News in the U.S. The latter was an odd choice, but Taylor delivered a lot of Beach Boys material to that paper. There was also some insightful articles served to teen magazines, which were still a prime source for rock 'n' roll information at that time. Rock was not really seen as high art by the press at large quite yet.

That being said, in the spring of 1967, Mike Love seems to have had a more active hand in crafting the PR releases with Derek Taylor, as evidenced by the articles in World Countdown News. Only a handful of those were reprinted in LLVS. There were a zillion more things written weekly about the Beach Boys at the time. I'm only guessing that that might be how Priore came upon his theory. It's presentation as fact is what gets him in trouble, and you all can spell out that better than I.

I suppose Smile would be bashed today as THE overrated record of the sixties, while Sgt Pepper would be the great misunderstood Beatles classic. Be careful what you wish for.  ;)

The Beach Boys vocal harmonies alone could've killed Pepper. Beatle harmonies were weak and flaccid compared to the Beach Boys. The Bicycle Rider theme is way trippier than anything on Pepper, save for A Day In The Life and the animal sounds on Good Morning, Good Morning. Cabin Essence and Surf's Up were light years beyond what the Beatles were doing. Pepper may be an equal to Pet Sounds, but it barely touches SMiLE. Then again, I also like Their Satanic Majesties Request, The Piper at the Gates of Dawn,  Odyssey and Oracle, and even Smiley Smile better than Pepper.

Obviously you are in a minority.

Since Smile wasn't finished or released...just how do you declare it so much better?

Got a Beatles axe to grind?

I've never heard fab four harmonies described as weak or flacid....interesting

Just my own overly biased opinion. Beatle harmonies weren't bad, but were kind of lacking when compared to Brian's full-sounding and complex vocal arrangements.

And maybe I do have a Beatles ax to grind. Well, maybe not with the Fabs themselves but more with the critics and the public which declared the Beatles as being "the greatest" and catapulted them to immortality while the Beach Boys got unfairly maligned as a cheesy surf-pop group.

Damm straight. I really can't see any way around much of what happened Beach Boys-wise from 67 onward. Brian's problems were never dealt with properly.

Piore's not exactly un-biased when it comes to any and all things Mike. After all, this is the guy who went to great pains to list and minimize all of Mike's contributions to Pet Sounds! As if there was any illusion that Mike was the genius behind that album..... or something. If I was Mike I'd act like an asshole too, having to deal with such crap for nearly 40 years.

Yeah, Priore's completely nonsensical assertion that Brian somehow sang, uh, all the backing vocals on Pet Sounds is what gets me the most.  That's not even just Mike, it's the rest of 'em.  It's silly, not to mention technically impossible.

If anything, I would have liked Mike to have been a little MORE assertive around Smile time.  Brian was increasingly not the person you'd want to have carte blanche over your organization and Mike bended to Brian's whims a little too easily sometimes.  But he and the rest of the Boys were still rightfully in awe of Brian's musical abilities, and could see what was happening to Brian.  And then when it was too late, they overcompensated.

Very well put. These were different times too. Rock wasn't yet the huge business it grew to become. The path that a band should follow wasn't yet as clear as it's become thanks to the mistakes by bands like The Beach Boys/Beatles. I can imagine it was quite a challenging position to be put in as essentially kids. Nevermind all the personal stuff. It's amazing they accomplished what they did.

I think one thing that's pointed out in Carlin's book is that Brian was the man behind the Heroes ripping on the Leid tapes. That combined with some of his drunken comments about Van Dyke leads me to think that Brian was the one ultimately most against Smile. Whether he thought the Beach Boys and Van Dyke didn't support him, whether he was paranoid that everyone was out to get him , whether he felt guilt for "pigging the show", whether he simply felt it got too complicated, who knows. Frankly he is the only one to blame for not buckling down and finishing it. Even when it did come out he had to be practically forced into doing it. Now perhaps he can enjoy what he did do then, and take pride that it was well received, but when he ended it he simply didn't trust in the direction he was going in. Mike and Carl should have stepped in and forced him to finish it, maybe they tried. But ultimatelythe feeling I get about Smiley Smile, Wild Honey, and Friends, is that they were a big relief to Brian and everyone else. He was working regular, he was getting along with everyone pretty well, the group was becoming more of a real group again. It was a good period. There wasn't any of the craziness of the Smile sessions.  It's only the people that are against Brian being a part of the group who cannot see the value in those albums. Smile would have solved some image problems and been more complete then Smiley, but I think Wild Honey and Friends were ahead of their time and in their own way just as good as Smile. Remember the comment he made in the Was doc? He basically said that he didn't want to be so competetive but just make nice records. That he did, and if Brian had kept up the health and activety that he had at least most of the time through 1970 I think Smile wouldn't have become the tragedy it did. It's only because he declined so much later that it took on such importance. Frankly if the Beach Boys had managed to be as popular here as they were in England I think the late Capitol/Early Reprise period would rightfully be regarded as the triumph it is.

you're my new best friend! :)

**Brian was increasingly not the person you'd want to have carte blanche over your organization and Mike bended to Brian's whims a little too easily sometimes.**

[Shudder to think...]

**I think one thing that's pointed out in Carlin's book is that Brian was the man behind the Heroes ripping on the Leid tapes.**

I can hear Brian coaxing Mike on during the playback. How much of that rant was written out, I have no clue. It sounds like Mike Love improv to me. Whether Brian was laughing or encouraging it, I still somehow get the feeling that the sentiment... i.e. the words... were more Mike than Brian. But hey, we're all masocists in one way or another. 

Technically, David Anderle and Nick Grillo were the ones running the business aspects of the group.

I personally just can't even imagine why this statement would have been a good idea for Brian in 1966:

**If anything, I would have liked Mike to have been a little MORE assertive around Smile time.**

"Smile" inspires me precisely because the Beach Boys were as patriotically wholesome as Captain America or apple pie. Yet, maybe it was the times, or maybe it was Brian’s subtle nature as a human being… maybe he just got swept up in the drastic changing tide of consciousness. I don’t know what compelled him to hang out with guys like Van Dyke Parks, Danny Hutton, David Anderle, Frank Holmes, Jules Siegal, etc. But when it came to writing those songs, it feels like Wilson challenged the very system his band embodied. He could have done it as a solo album, but it was perfect as a Beach Boys album. It was like a guidepost for where America should have kept on going. Mike Love never did and never will have that kind of spiritual compass to guide music of the type Brian was creating in 1966-67.

Multiple sources have confirmed that whole thing was written by Brian.
I'm not speaking of the business aspects.  Musical aspects.


If you're comfortable judging the spiritual compasses of people that you don't know, 40 years after the fact, that's fine.  I'm not.  Am also not comfortable projecting my personal taste onto the spectrum of morality, which most people are all to ready to do.  The person whose music they like the best becomes the best person.  I think that's unfair.  And to me, it's much more interesting--fun even--to explore somebody who I don't necessarily think highly of and find reasons to like them.  And the more people I like, the less dislike I feel, and the less dislike I feel, the better I feel in general.

When I first became a fan of the Beach Boys, I followed the Brianista line of thought, but me being me I kept trying to see things from other people's perspectives, and now I've come to realize that put in the same position, I probably would have acted exactly the same way Mike did.  I might be a little less outwardly "prickly" as Mike certainly can be, but I believe he was mostly in the right.

Then we have a general difference of philosophy, and that's fine.

I DO agree with you, however, that human beings are more flawed and situations more nuanced than we like to project onto our heroes. That's one of the reasons why I think Domenic's theories fall flat. He sees Brian with rose-coloured glasses. Where I do agree with Domenic is, at that point in time, Brian was capable of doing little wrong, artistically. He was just in a groove, and I don't know how to scientifically define that when it happens in sports or art or life in general, but when someone is on, they are just on.

I don't personally dislike Mike for personal reasons. As you said, I don't know the man. I DO dislike his politics and philosophy for commercial art. I agree with those Rieley interviews about Mike. He had his direction, and I'm allowed to not like it. Furthermore, the reason I don't think much of Mike is because I don't think much ABOUT Mike. Outside of his early '60s lyrics, I don't find myself listening to much with his name attached to it. It feels like I'd be wasting precious life away. But then again, I'm nobody... just another opinion... and I'd not deny anyone their obvious pleasure.

I pretty much agree with you about Mike. I think the only good thing he ever wrote solo was Big Sur.

**Multiple sources have confirmed that whole thing was written by Brian.**

Those sources please.

The main thing is to me is that Mike did do his job on Smile vocally and despite anything else he did do what he was told. It was done with an attitude at times, but he still did some excellent work. Listening to the session tapes, there was a great deal of group involvement and only rarely does the atmosphere seem negative. I think Mike made many bad decisions from 1974 on but it still doesn't take away from the talent he did have.

This is one of my favorite paragraphs on this board in a while. Since we're using words like "spiritual," can I say amen?

To "H" : Hurrah for "H".

To MBE: ...and my recollection is the aural evidence of a negative atmosphere was from Brain toward Carl, in particular, or the group in general.  From Brian toward the group, back and to the left; not from group toward Brian. 

Not saying it wasn't necessarily justified or that is the whole story etc., just sayin'....

My favorite source for that is Brian, who told Peter Reum that he wrote it.

The one thing I would like to see, and haven't seen it written about in depth, is how was Mike Love acting as SMiLE progressed, and more specifically, in the spring of 1967?

I'm sure, and it has been documented in depth, that Mike was not happy early on, and protested to anyone who would listen. But, as has been pointed out, Mike did his job vocally and did it well.

I wonder if Mike continued to complain and protest, or if he eventually relented. While I know Mike never changed his opinion of SMiLE - he STILL doesn't like it - did he just let it go and not harrass Brian any further? I don't think Mike had very much to do with SMiLE not being finished, regardless of what Brian says in the documentary. I think that Mike "cooled his jets" somewhat because of his non-interference with the more "out there" Smiley Smile.

On the first half, I think you're right and wrong. And in that, I mean that I don't think Mike specifically, deviously worked to prevent Smile's release--but I do think Brian's impression of Mike's reaction probably was instrumental in the album not being released.

On the second ... are you saying the Leaf-produced doc might not be 100% gospel? For shame! Next thing you know, you'll claim the staged bits weren't staged!

I think Brian weathered the "Mike Love criticism storm" quite well and when on to record the album, almost in it's entirety. With Mike. I mean, we have the proof, the music.

I think it went UNFINISHED because of several factors; I would put Mike's dissatisfaction lower on the list than most. And I don't think Mike's protesting led to Brian second guessing himself. I think other "substances" contributed to that.

But I wonder if Brian's reaction to Mike's second-guessing wasn't a part of what led to the "substances" of which you speak--in part. And don't misunderstand, I don't think it's something we can really explain (due to it being a 40-year-old mystery with key participants who either aren't speaking, are speaking for their own motivations or have no idea anymore) or that was even necessarily anywhere near as IMPORTANT as we make it now that it's some kind of great lost cause. All I'm saying is, when you're unstable, things like that can lead to more instability. The things don't even have to be real--Mike could have loved Smile (even though we know he didn't), but Brian could have just misunderstood. That's enough for someone struggling with the sorts of things Brian was struggling with at the time.

Good points. Now I have to go work on my taxes...

I've never been accused of being a Mike Love fan....but consider the following:

1.  By this point Murry and to some extent Brian had cheated Mike out of royalties he was due.  

2.  Brian was using VDP which I'm sure was a painful insult to Mike.  Ironic given that Mike wrote the final lyrics to GV.

3.  Given #1 and #2 Mike keeps up his part in terms of leading the live band and singing on sessions.

Frankly Brian & Co. latter day accusations that Mike's lack of support killed Smile doesn't hold any water and is total BS.  Any ill feelings Mike held at this point were likely justified to some degree.

I know you're not stating it as a fact, but I think this is unfair. Debating Mike's role in Smile, ok. He DID protest about the crow line, after all. But whatever path Brian chose to take in his private life, whatever distance he chose to have from things more important  than pop albums, like his daughters, have nothing to do with the Beach Boys.

I mean, how often do we excuse Mike's alledged prickly behaviour in the seventies saying that he had a majority of co-workers with substance problems? I don't.

I'm not sure of what I'm being blamed for here, but I think you might have misunderstood me. I am not actually blaming Mike for anything. What I'm saying is that when someone has mental problems of the sort Brian had at the time, any number of things (real or perceived) can trigger a reaction. And as a pure hypothetical, I noted that if Brian were to perceive Mike's attitude toward smile as negative, he could react negatively, either with deeper depression or increased drug use or whatever. I don't mean any of that happened, or that Mike himself actually DID anything. I'm just saying that mental illness is a motherfucker.

The way I see it, Mike wasn't as instrumental in the downfall of Smile as Brian and Leaf suggest, but I think the group's general lack of enthusiasm was one of many contributing factors.  Even in the documentary, Brian doesn't say that Mike disliking it was the only reason.  His drug use and general mental instability certainly weren't helping matters either.  

But at the same time, I don't think you can discount the impact of the group's less than enthusiastic feelings about the project.  I know they all did their jobs (extremely well, I might add), but Brian's mindset around that time was so extremely fragile that he would interpret some random comment from one of the guys as more harsh than it actually was.  He was also becoming frustrated at the resistance he was facing with not only the Beach Boys, but his "entourage" at the time.  The interview with Anderle in LLVS is very informative in telling how much it bothered him when people questioned his ideas.

Like I think I said before, even if the group was 100% on board with Smile from the start, Brian still may not have finished it due to everything he was facing at the time.  But I think that more support from the group might have been enough to allow him to finish...well, that and the year he claims he would have needed to do that.

"Frankly Brian & Co. latter day accusations that Mike's lack of support killed Smile doesn't hold any water and is total BS.  Any ill feelings Mike held at this point were likely justified to some degree."

This doesn't make sense - sure, Mike had some axes to grind with Murry (and Brian) over songwriting and he did write Good Vibrations only to be replaced for the album by Van Dyke.  But how does that somehow prove that Mike's lack of support/dislike of the Smile material DIDN'T kill Smile?  Whether his dislike was justified or not, whether it killed Smile is another question altogether that only Van Dyke and Brian can answer - Van Dyke has answered in the affirmative, and Brian has definitely put it forth as a reason, if not the sole reason, Smile was never finished.  We can all agree that ultimately Brian was the one who didn't finish it and decided not to finish it - until 2004 of course - can't we?  So then the question is why did Brian not finish it - and his reasons, whether you like them or not, or agree with them or not, are what in his mind derailed the project.  All that has to be filtered through our knowledge of his untreated mental illness and drug use at the time.

The most revealing quote IMO is the one Brian made when he first heard the 'Mints do the BB tribute (I think) in which Brian said something along the lines of

...["if I had this band back in 1967 I would've toured SMiLE"].

Which means he would've finished SMiLE and had the talent in the band to perform it live. However, maybe Brian was just being sarcastic when he made that comment. It would've been virtually impossible to play those songs live back then and make them sound good. IMO though Brian's comment holds water in the fact that the band and record company were not able to accept Brian's wacky endeavors and they were the catalyst for Brian pulling out. Not so much the substances.

It's a lose lose, if "it" did kill Smile, then that would be a stark example of where Brian was, since never before to that point had he been deterred artistically by anything.  Whether you believe Brian was mentally ill and his paranoia led him to wrong perceptions, or if you believe that he'd simply become so pumped full of ego juice by his yes men that he couldn't deal with normal inter-group conflict, or if you believe something else, it's a sad reminder that just a year previous Brian was an artistic steamroller.


One person's wacky endeavors are another's harmful behavior.  I wouldn't have accepted a lot of Brian's behavior.  If he wants to do things his way, fine.  I think Mike could have got over feeling permanently ditched for other lyricists, but if Brian's going to take things into his own hands at the expense of every other member of the group, then he had better deliver.  As much fun as it is to think of the artist as the responsibility free bohemian who can create as the muse dictates, Brian signed a contract with Capitol to deliver product, which he was not doing.  When he started canceling sessions before they even started, that must have been frustrating to the band.  They were letting Brian do his own thing, letting themselves be completely marginalized artistically, because in their hearts they knew Brian was really, really good.  But while they're out spreading Brian's gospel, he's back recording chants, canceling sessions, and sleeping in his own bed.

If Brian had stayed the same from Pet Sounds through the completion of a hypothetical Smile, I think Smile would be looked back on in the same way Pet Sounds is in terms of the band's reaction.

They all would say the same thing they did about Pet Sounds.  They got back from tour, were surprised...but eventually warmed up to most of it.

But since Brian stopped Smile for whatever reason, the warming up couldn't happen naturally.

Domenic actually raises a good point in the role the Capitol lawsuit played in ending the album. I think it was inferred that the Beach Boys could not release or perform the Smile material for several months. Months that included Monterey. More or less the album was stalled at a very fragile point and the business going on with Capitol may have soured Brian further. Specifically I remember the original Heroes single was cancelled as a result.

One last thing about Mike. I don't think on the whole he minded Smile musically, and he has praised Heroes. Brian developed irrational fears about Mike but notice this didn't seem to happen until Landy came along. Brian wrote fairly regularly with Mike through 1980.

aeijtzsche raises a good point about Brian's Smile era entourage. It was they who fed Leaf the Mike killed Smile stories that he was all to ready to rush into print. I think Anderle even admitted he was trying to break the group up. If I was Mike I would have resented the hell out of them too.

I wonder where he found the strenght to finish Pet Sounds, when he knew that the Beach Boys wouldn't insert more than 3 or 4 of its tracks in their setlist.  ;)

All that is true, no argument there. However I think that the reason Brian let go of SMiLE is that as an artist he was growing exponentially. Even if his Mojo was all foda-ed up he was working hard on perfecting a work of art, but the confines of the record contract and his band wouldn't allow him the time or support to do so, IMO. Also, by killing SMiLE did Brian save himself?

His weird behavior was most likely because of drugs, but he wrote some really great songs on drugs- so who knows. He said the only song he wrote stoned on marijuana was Caroline, No but I find that hard to believe.

Mike gets a bad rap albeit some of it may be deserved...I look at Brian during this time as a sports manager- when the team does great you give the manager the credit, but when the team does poor the blame is also applied to the manager....( Fire Isiah Thomas!)

True, but had the SMiLE project been finished and toured IMO they would've been more of a contemporary act than an oldies act. However that's what is weird about the quote- was Brian being serious?

If released, I think SMiLE would've been as succesful as Pet Sounds, maybe not much more...but it would've been IMPOSSIBLE to ignore....

I think Brian forgot about this quote 30 seconds after he said it.

If it had been finished the band would perform Heroes & Villains, Good Vibrations, Wonderful and maybe one more track, and that would be it. Like they did with every new album. Brian expecting the band to pull a Tommy and perform a whole concept album - in three movements? Come on. The matter of the band ceasing to be a contemporary act had much more to do with the fact that their '67 and '68 albums just didn't find an audience. I love'em, btw.

I just don't see how Brian would cancel an album because the band would have to rearrange the songs live to four instruments and five voices. Or the band interfering with Brian's work because they wanted material that could be done, on stage, faithfully to the record. Brian would take care of creating hit singles, aftewards they'd figure out how to play the mo'fos live.

I agree completely. Brings back my old point about too many interloping factors messing up The Beach Boys. If this had been a different band (The Kinks, or The Who)
there would have been an argument or a fist fight then it would have been resolved over pints down at the pub.

Bands fight over lyrics, arrangements, money, credits, all the time. It's just part of the process. It's very unfair that Mike should get flap for 40 years over debating a line he had every right as a founding member of the band to debate.

If Brian wanted time to "perfect his art" he shouldn't have stayed with the group.  Being a recording artist was his job.

I mean, I have the rest of my life to perfect the album I'm working on, with zero external pressures.  Brian could have pulled an Eden Abez and wandered around writing songs and sleeping under the W in the Hollywood Sign.

But no matter how artistic we perceive Brian to be, genius doesn't absolve responsibility.  Genius should be lightly coddled by society, sure, but Brian chose to be a recording artist and chose to be paid for his art, and he chose to partner with 4 other people.

Hey, I agree with you 100%. I'm not making excuses for the man, just opining on what were his reasons for letting go of SMiLE.

Anyways, part of me is glad SMiLE 67 wasn't released...

Well isn't there that tape of Mike making a mockery of H&V?

Go back a few pages and we established that Brian probably wrote that.

.

Thanks MBE.


When did Brian tell that to Peter Reum?

I seriously doubt Brian would've needed another year to finish SMiLE. I mean as far as I know the only place he has ever said that is on the Beautiful Dreamer documentary and so much of what Brian's says these days is just crap in my opinion. Not having a go at Brian, but I just don't think he really cares about most interviews and he'll just give any answer so he can get it over and done with.

I agree with everything you say here Luther. Mental illness is a motherfodaer >:( and one can only imagine how hard it must've been for Brian with everything else going on (lawsuit with Capital, worrying about writing, recording, arranging, producing new material, supposed resistance from the group etc...) and then mix all of that with drugs and boy it must've been hard. No wonder Brian was growing paranoid. As you have said Luther, I'm sure if Mike or whoever made a comment about SMiLE (even if it was just suggesting he change a thing or two) then Brian could see that as a negative thing.

Brian's interviews through about 1970 are very lucid. 1971-81 it depends on when you got him but mainly his memory still seems intact. After that it's a crapshoot, but he can remember things sometimes quite well. Mainly though he has gotten worse over the years as far as interviewing.

**My favorite source for that is Brian, who told Peter Reum that he wrote it.**

Seems like an over-simplification to me, but I won't argue it, because it will only make me look like a Mike basher and a Brianista, whatever that means. I'll only say that if Brian DID write it, as in write it out, it sounds to me like it was a quick way of covering up the wound he felt in its failure. More than one person involved with Brian has said that he was hugely disappointed in the showing of "H&V" on the charts. That he chose Mike Love to so obnoxiously mock "H&V" is interesting.

I'll leave it at that.

**I don't think Mike had very much to do with SMiLE not being finished, regardless of what Brian says in the documentary.**

Why oh why do we take some things Brian says about his own life, music and experiences as utter gospel, and others, we dismiss with whimsy?

**This doesn't make sense - sure, Mike had some axes to grind with Murry (and Brian) over songwriting and he did write Good Vibrations only to be replaced for the album by Van Dyke. **

Uh, "California Girls," right?

And the notion that Mike "did write Good Vibrations"... that's vastly overstated. It seems the song's lyrics were originally by Tony Asher. Somewhere along the way, there was an edit made, and the lyrics became what they are today. Mike has not claimed to have ANY part in that... only taking an already recorded bassline and add the lyrics "I'm picking up good vibrations, she's giving me excitations."

**I think Mike could have got over feeling permanently ditched for other lyricists, but if Brian's going to take things into his own hands at the expense of every other member of the group, then he had better deliver.**

Actually, he DID deliver the large bulk of the project when they got back from the road in November-December, 1966. There was a cover, there were backing tracks completed, there was a booklet. There were lyrics and songs to record, and an album on schedule. Now, did the Beach Boys mess it up by arguing or conducting bad vocal sessions? Or did Brian second guess himself that Christmas? What happened really? No one knows for sure. Probably a combination of things brought on by doubt, arguing and drugs. But the cancelling of sessions didn't start happening until after the band got back and started working with Brian on the vocals.

It's a fact.

**I mean, I have the rest of my life to perfect the album I'm working on, with zero external pressures.  Brian could have pulled an Eden Abez and wandered around writing songs and sleeping under the W in the Hollywood Sign.**

Ahbez lived under the second "L," thank you very much.

LYRICS:

Tony Asher wrote (what in my opinion were work-in-progress) lyrics to Good Vibartions, based on Brian's concept. You can listen to them in the SS/WH twofer, track 25.

Someone, probably Brian, wrote the "Good, Good, Good, Good Vibrations Yeah" chorus. Again, track 25 of the twofer.

Mike rewrote the whole thing (some words/concepts of the Wilson/Asher's version were kept, I think) except for the chorus. He wrote a counterpoint to it, the "I'm picking up..." line.

MUSIC:

It's Brian's baby all the way, though Mike created a vocal line to be sung over the bass line. If it's a suggestion, rearrangement or co-write, YMMV.

**Mike rewrote the whole thing (some words/concepts of the Wilson/Asher's version were kept, I think) except for the chorus. He wrote a counterpoint to it, the "I'm picking up..." line.
**

Evidence for this entire re-write? As far as I know, Mike said that Brian had the whole thing, but it was too weird, so he wrote a boy-girl line before the chorus. Where has Mike ever said that he re-wrote the entire song? What book, film, interview, liner note or article does he say that in?

The problem is, after some years, you see Brian contraditing himself so many times that it's natural to take everything he says with a pinch of salt. But it's inevitable to choose the quotes that suit the theory you follow... We're human after all.

Oh my.

**The problem is, after some years, you see Brian contraditing himself so many times that it's natural to take everything he says with a pinch of salt. But it's inevitable to choose the quotes that suit the theory you follow... We're human after all.**

Good point. But I think consistent ones, like Jules Siegal saying the "Surf's Up" vocal session went bad, then Brian claiming in 1968 that the band actually broke up over it's non-release, then the common mantra that both Brian and Mike and Van Dyke all cop to... that the lyrics created internal strife. I think at some point, we have to concede that "Surf's Up" and "Cabinessence" spawned serious tension. The lyrics were just NOT what the band expected when they got back. Whatever that caused Brian to do (reconsider, abdandon, etc.), it had an impact, and it was so tense that no one has been able to let go of those feelings all these years later.

I believe Brian [or Tony] had the "good, good, good vibrations" line, Mike came up with the "excitations" bit, almost all Tony's [or Brian's?] lyrics got scrapped and Mike wrote the rest of the single's lyrics at the vocal session apparently.

Mike says he wrote "I'm pickin' up good vibrations" at one of the early tracking sessions, then stayed away from the sessions until they were ready to do the vocals.  On his way to the final vocal session (or one of the final vocal sessions) he wrote the lyrics to the verses and dictated them to his wife Susanne in the car.

That's what I've always heard as well.

**Mike says he wrote "I'm pickin' up good vibrations" at one of the early tracking sessions, then stayed away from the sessions until they were ready to do the vocals.  On his way to the final vocal session (or one of the final vocal sessions) he wrote the lyrics to the verses and dictated them to his wife Susanne in the car.**

I'm not doubting it. I just wonder where that was said. The lyrics ARE great, and I'd not deny Mike his kudos for writing so many good lyrics in the '60s. I doubt he could ever be as post-modern as Van Dyke, but Mike's lyrics were always in the moment at that time, and they hold up.

goodness...just about any mike love interview the past 30 years or so...

Cool, then pointing one out shouldn't be too difficult.

Right, leaving no room for Brian, who presumably wouldn't want to sleep with that close to Eden.  I gave them a letter gap.

I find Google is a handy tool.  If you find people are not quick to find sources, it's because this topic has been talked to death over the years and nobody feels like wading through 5 years of threads to find references to articles or interviews.

By editing out everything in between those phrases, I've created the title for the next Smile documentary.

Seriously though, saying Brian delivered most of the album isn't really true, because there never was a complete album.  We can't think of Smile as a potentially completable album, because it wasn't.  Maybe Brian would have changed his mind hundreds of times and scrapped everything thing even if the Boys had been out on tour for another decade.  I don't think we can use what must have been a common occurrence, the boys returning home to be surprised by what Brian had been doing, as a catalyst for something out of the ordinary.  Something that might have happened anyway.

No one knows for sure!  It's a fact!

Besides, I'm still not sure why I'm still posting on this thread.  I thought I got this all out of my system four years ago.

>>Mike says he wrote... the lyrics to the verses and dictated them to his wife Susanne in the car.<<

i'm sure it's unintentional, but this is hilarious.

**By editing out everything in between those phrases, I've created the title for the next Smile documentary.**

Sigh.

**Seriously though, saying Brian delivered most of the album isn't really true, because there never was a complete album.  We can't think of Smile as a potentially completable album, because it wasn't.**

As far as a tracklist, an album jacket and a number of songs that were NEAR completion, it's not a stretch to say that any album could have easily been prepared at that time. You can call an unreleased album anything you want, and the confusion of anything started that is abandoned makes it so that it looks directionless in hindsight.

**Maybe Brian would have changed his mind hundreds of times and scrapped everything thing even if the Boys had been out on tour for another decade.  I don't think we can use what must have been a common occurrence, the boys returning home to be surprised by what Brian had been doing, as a catalyst for something out of the ordinary.  Something that might have happened anyway.**

Something DID happen. You can take one side, or you can see all the sides. I choose to see all the sides and have been arguing them online since 1995. I just have a tad more empathy for the creator, in this instance, because of the nature of those songs. I feel they are more valuable than Mike Love has given them credit for, musically and lyrically. Mike is entitled to his opinion. That's fine. But under any normal circumstances, what Brian had set up when the Beach Boys got back from the fall 1966 tour should have been suffice to complete the album. If it's Mike's fault, so be it. If Brian had doubts about his intellectual collaborators, that's fine too. If Brian couldn't concentrate and lost the plot due to drug abuse, I can buy that. If Brian just decided to question the project's validity, okay. All of these are valid explanations, and probably all of them were part and parcel. I'm only saying that the material was there, and it wasn't some big ball of confusion. Many unreleased albums in rock history never got as far as a tracklist, an album jacket, an inner sleeve or that much mixdown work.

**No one knows for sure!  It's a fact!**

Mocking. Heh. Can I get an amen?

**Besides, I'm still not sure why I'm still posting on this thread.  I thought I got this all out of my system four years ago.**

Sorry. I'll stop pulling your arm.  :lol

By the way, my real quote, should it happen to get lost in the haughtiness, was this:

**No one knows for sure. Probably a combination of things brought on by doubt, arguing and drugs. But the cancelling of sessions didn't start happening until after the band got back and started working with Brian on the vocals. It's a fact.**

So... is it not a fact? Was Brian in the habit of cancelling "Dumb Angel"/"Smile" sessions prior to the Beach Boys returning?

The "no one knows for sure" was about WHY Brian cancelled "Smile." The "it's a fact" had to do with WHEN Brian started cancelling "Smile" sessions. It's all about context.

I wasn't mocking anything.  I really just think that "nobody knows for sure, it's a fact" is a pretty good description of most Smile discussions.  It's all speculation, right?



Which nobody on this board has, unless Mike, Al, Brian, or Bruce is on this board.

I understand it the same as c-man, in fact Mike has said he had a copy of the final tracking mix for GV to write the lyrics he dictated to his wife on the way to the session. That makes them very last minute if a final tracking wasn't possible until September 21 or later and GV was all ready a "boss hitbound" pick on KHJ's September 27th radio survey.

**Which nobody on this board has, unless Mike, Al, Brian, or Bruce is on this board.**

Not the context of the sessions, but the context of the sentence.

Anyway, it sounded a bit harsh repeated twice, but I got your point and it's true... we're just theorizing, not making anything more concrete in our obsession on this message board. Sometimes the written word comes off as sounding different than the intent. My bad for taking it that way.

**I understand it the same as c-man, in fact Mike has said he had a copy of the final tracking mix for GV to write the lyrics he dictated to his wife on the way to the session. That makes them very last minute if a final tracking wasn't possible until September 21 or later and GV was all ready a "boss hitbound" pick on KHJ's September 27th radio survey.**

I'm sure it should ring a bell, as I, like any obsessive, have almost every Beach Boys book ever printed, and hundreds of hours of footage and radio show on cassette, VHS and DVD. But for some reason, the only quote I can mentally place is the one in EH where Mike says that the whole track was done, but it was so weird that he thought the fanbase would be lost, so he added a boy-girl lyric to the bassline.

I think you are remembering he said he came up with the "excitation" lyrics to riff on the bass line earlier on. [c-man: is that what can be heard being tried out by Brian during some of the Juneish tracking?, memory vague]  Mike also has explained how he wrote the verse lyrics, where the boy-girl sentiment is,  and I believe other Boys have always backed that up.

I'm not doubting it, as much as I'd just like to remember the story/quote. I'm sure I'll run across it, and it's not a really big arguing point anyway.

I am pretty sure Mike speaks of it in the Byron Priess book and also his 1992 Goldmine interview. That's just off the top of my head, I don't know how detailed he got. Check it out though.

When quoting, I recommend use of the "quote" button. It beats asterisks. That is all.

I agree.

I'm starting to seriously consider joining the literary movement to eliminate most punctuation in general.

Speaking of context...

You guys are so lazy. I typed in "Mike Love California Girls dictate" into Google and the 1992 Goldmine interview is the first thing that came up.

Brianc, I have two interviews that Mike+Bruce did for radio stations here in Sydney, Australia late last year and I'm pretty sure that in both interviews (at least in one) Mike makes the point of "I wrote all of the lyrics". My point being is that as people have said, Mike has said on many occassions that he wrote pretty much ALL of the lyrics (well besides the words "Good Vibrations") and it is pretty easy to find interviews where he has said so. Whether you believe it or not is another matter but to be honest there is nothing THAT amazing about the lyrics anyway (they are perfect for the song but there's nothing that special about them)

Says you. I've always thought the lyrics were great.

they sound to me like the kind of lyrics that were written in 15 minutes with the author holding neither pen nor paper.

I wonder what Mike was doing in Burbank...

Any song with the line "and the wind that lifts her perfume through the air" is alright by me.

Yardly smells so sweet.

I'm goin' guess it shows how much Mike dug the tracking which put him in the zone where it sometimes just flows; having his lovely wife right there probably didn't hurt the inspiration either.

I've always found the Hollywood freeway to be inspiring, too.

Seriously.  I know I'm in a minority, but I always loved driving on LA's freeways.  This glorious secular communion...

How bad is the smog in LA? They're quite odd for a major city in that their public transit is quite lacking, or so I've read and heard.

As with most problems with LA, smog is both overstated and understated.

I happen to like it...but then again, after a good rain there's nothing quite as beautiful as the crystal clear Hollywood hills.

The public transit system is strange.  The busses are great, but the rail system is inadequate to get you everywhere you want to go...but it is OK for certain routes.

"They" are working on it. But it's difficult. The people with all the power and money just happen to make all that money based on things like the sale of oil/gas and automobiles. They hold a lot of political clout. We, the artists, stay out here, why? Who knows. The apocalyptic mood of Los Angeles was perfectly conveyed by Nathaniel West in "The Day of the Locust." A lot of people are working really hard to hopefully leave their immortal mark. We hope it is all worth something.

The smog is terrible. It reminds me of that Flaming Lips lyric: "If you could make everybody poor, just so you could be rich, would you do it?"

I have a grandmother who still believes that blues is the devil's music. I can't help but think the devil's music is really the sound of a gun shot. But that's why I love "Smile" and the peace/sex/equality revolution. I don’t understand why that was/is so scary to people. How can religion be against peace and equality? And how can mankind deny its animal sexual instinct? If anything, the ‘60s strikes me as extremely logical and level-headed. Yes, the drug decadence surely made it look like tomfoolery. But at its roots, the philosophy just made sense.

It makes a whole lot more sense than the nihilism that is so often praised these days in art circles. Los Angeles has its ugly moments, like the rest of the world, so there is a lot to feel nihilistic about. But optimism doesn't have to be naive. Sometimes optimism can be simple and logical.

There's a 400+ page book called "Good Vibrations".  I'd love to report that the entire book is about the writing & recording of the Beach Boys' song, but it's actually subtitled "A History of Record Production", and that's what it is.  By Mark Cunningham.  Highly recommended.

On page 82, Mike Love is quoted thusly:  "...I was around for one of the sessions and actually came up with the lyrics and melody line for the 'I'm pickin' up good vibrations' part.  But I just had a 'let's wait and see' attitude', so I left Brian to his own devices and didn't attend any more backing sessions until it was time to record the vocals...". 

Combined with the above quote from Goldmine (where Mike describes dictating the rest of the lyrics to Suzanne in the car on the way to Columbia Studios), this should satisfy source-wise. 

As far as the quality of Mike's lyrics:  I consider both "she goes with me to a blossom world" (which BTW doesn't even rhyme with the preceding line) and "I don't know where but she sends me there" some of the best lyrics I've ever heard in a pop song, including Dylan's and Lennon's.  Surreal but accessible at the same time. 

I find a weird sense of oneness when driving on LA Freeways.  See I don't live there so when I'm there I rarely have time constraints....so I just dig the scenery.

How is San Fransisco compared to L.A.? Just curious...I'm intrigued by the West Coast.

I grew up in the S.F. Bay Area, left when I was 19 and then lived in L.A. for ten years...now I live on the Central Coast half way between the two(near Morro Bay)...I live in a beautiful traffic and smog free environment right on the ocean, but i travel to S.F. and L.A. a lot for business...and in my opinion the S.F Bay area traffic is much worse, harder to negotiate, less predictable, worse drivers, again... my opinion. L.A. is always about the same, its kind of slinky like a Doors album...don't drive between 5 and 6:30 p.m. or your gonna get stuck, stay off the 405 if you can, and use the canyons and the coast highway to get around it all. Driving in L.A. can be an okay experience if you know how to deal with it, personally I'm okay with it. Smog can be bad, but if you stay on the west side or near the coast its rarely a problem. But you gotta know there are certain areas you just can't drive without experiencing gridlock, Santa Monica Blvd. from the 405 to Bev. Hills, parts of Orange County near Newport, parts of Sunset and Hollywood late in the evening, and like i said the 405 is a bad scene if you wanna move...but L.A. is a big sprawling place with lots of options for routes. And it smells much better than NYC.

Of course, staying on the westside of Los Angeles excludes one from the Silver Lake/Echo Park area, which is pretty much the best place in L.A. for art, literature and indie sounds. It's gotten more commercialized these past five years, but between Silver Lake and Downtown L.A., so much is happening outside of the westside.

In fact, besides Venice and some leftover cool in Santa Monica, I can't see why you want to spend any time on the westside. Maybe go to the beach. But there's nada happening on the Sunset Strip, unless you like pay-to-play hard rock bands, or want to be in the Paris Hilton scene.

Wow, you guys are awesome!

I'm a lifelong LA resident who despises the freeways, but since this thread, I've been looking at them from a different point of view. Going south on the 405 can be an amazing experience when you pass the airport at dusk and exit on El Segundo Blvd or Rosecrans and drive toward the ocean.