Love it, or Leaf it?

[Exapno Mapcase]

You're right. For whatever reason - drugs, illness or what - BW lost confidence in his ability.  However, for what it's worth, I don't think some of the people  around him helped, and that includes the heroes as well as the villains.

[grillo]

Sidewinder, you are totally right. Brian is THE reason for Smile's no-show. Five years ago I would have strangled anyone who said that, but it seems obvious now.

[Dancing Bear]

Hey, we should be tearing Leaf apart, not Brian and Mike! 

But seriously, this and the last Smile thread have been surprisingly civil. Wow.

[NHC]

The think is, some people believe Mike - or the rest of them - were somehow obligated to automatically like SMILE, even if it made no sense to them, just because it was Brian's vision or whatever. This was a group and the rest of the members shouldn't have had to be forced into something they didn't believe in or understand.  Yes, we all know who the creative force was behnd the music and band but the other members were entitled to their own feelings about it, weren't they?  They did have a career at stake. It would be pretty easy to have heard the initial SMILE stuff and say "what?"  As it was, by many accounts, Mike and the others did their professional best with it. Maybe Brian could make the jump from Little Deuce Coupe to God Only Knows to Barnyard or even Cabinessence, but you have to admit it was a pretty wide jump that not everyone could be expected to envision, much less make.  That shouldn't diminish those who were hesitant to jump, nor does it diminish those who could. At least we have SMILE 2004, and that's nothing to sneeze at.

[Cam Mott]

You're right. For whatever reason - drugs, illness or what - BW lost confidence in his ability.  However, for what it's worth, I don't think some of the people  around him helped, and that includes the heroes as well as the villains.

Good points.  In the Leafian school what gets glossed over is that the designated  heroes, ie Posse, were just as or more "resistant" than the designated villains, ie. Boys.

To me both the groups were working their hineys off to please Brian and get done what Brian wanted done even if they did have reservations.  I would put down most reservations as resulting from Brian's lack of explanation of what he/they were doing.

I am thoroughly convinced that Brian was doing exactly what he knew he wanted to do and everyone else was trying hard to do their bit to get it done.  Brian's muse was the only "resistance" imo.

[Amy B.]

The think is, some people believe Mike - or the rest of them - were somehow obligated to automatically like SMILE, even if it made no sense to them, just because it was Brian's vision or whatever. This was a group and the rest of the members shouldn't have had to be forced into something they didn't believe in or understand. 

I feel conflicted about this. On the one hand, I agree that the group was being pretty considerate and amenable by agreeing to record pretty much anything Brian told them to record (although that attitude didn't last, did it?). On the other hand, I think, "Well, but of course they should be expected to. If they wanted Brian to be their creative force and weren't creating anything themselves, they had to do what he said. The only other choice would be for BRIAN to satisfy the band by creating something he didn't believe in, i.e., something more commercial. And that wouldn't be fair either."
I do agree that it's Brian who is ultimately responsible for the demise of Smile. But suppose Brian hadn't stopped wanting to do Smile, and the band had held its ground. What would be the options in 1967? Either throw away Smile, which wouldn't be fair, or let Brian do Smile as a solo project, which I can't see the band doing.  I can't even see the band letting Brian produce another band doing Smile.
So Brian doesn't throw it away or find another outlet for it. Instead, he waits until his ties to the BBs are pretty much cut, and then he does it. Fair, right? Given Mike's reaction, you wouldn't think so. He didn't even listen to the 2004 Smile and had no comment about it. That really got me. Here's someone who was musically invested in Brian Wilson for over 35 years. He's Brian's cousin and claims to care about him. Yet when asked about it, he claimed he didn't have time to listen to it, like he couldn't be bothered. He could have listened to Smile once (45 minutes out of his life) and politely said he was happy for Brian. But you get the sense that he resents Brian for recording it, as if the BBs should have done it. And that's just not fair, given what we know about how he felt about Smile.

[Dancing Bear]

Amy, you're thinking about the Beach Boys' career decisions in RATIONAL terms.

When Mike was pissed about being left off the songwriting team for the second album in a row he bitched like a girl about Cabinessence lyrics. When Brian lost interest in Brother Records he locked himself in his room and refused to speak to Anderle.

"I think you're overestimating the Beach Boys' capacity to make logical decisions in 1967"
Bruce Johnston, Male Ego Board

[Andrew G. Doe]

I think you can remove "in 1967" from that quote without invalidating it whatsoever.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Amen, Andrew.

[MBE]

I bet we'd all be surprised [if we asked] by how little contact or interaction many people who express opinions have had with the subject of their opining.

Actually, you'd be surprised in some cases how much interaction  people who have expressed opinions have actually had with certain people. I know I was. :/

Thanks for supporting what I wrote. I used to be afraid of stating my view of DL but I realise I have to be honest how I see things. I am not willing to involve myself in politics and speaking out here was very freeing.

[Cam Mott]

I bet we'd all be surprised [if we asked] by how little contact or interaction many people who express opinions have had with the subject of their opining.

Actually, you'd be surprised in some cases how much interaction  people who have expressed opinions have actually had with certain people. I know I was. :/

Thanks for supporting what I wrote. I used to be afraid of stating my view of DL but I realise I have to be honest how I see things. I am not willing to involve myself in politics and speaking out here was very freeing.

I wasn't referring to David Leaf if that is the impression I gave or it makes any difference to anyone.

[MBE]

Cam I didn't think you were writing about David.  I was talking about The What Of Whom mainly but also others who generally have posted things that supported some or all of what I said

Lennon never was quoted as saying anything about Mike. VDP said it. He is REAL impartial. Mike and Brian both have flaws, both are human beings. I see the Leaf book as the non direct root of Mike's irrational actions in the 90s and beyond as far as quotes and lawsuits. He tried too hard to prove he wasn't a no talent and succeded in a way. His songwriting suit was valid, Brian says so I don't care what Asher says he was around six months tops. The Smile one Mike did is baloney. So Mike has been wrong and right like any other human being

Brian let people like David Anderle(who openly admits to doing this)  and Leaf lead him to hate the others at times too. Watch how he speaks of Mike in the UK doc from around 2002 that Stebbins did. Read how he spoke of Carl in Mojo. He can be mean but he and Mike have been very nice and complimentary to each other too. In person they come off as very good friends. That is why I think it is the people (legally and personally) around them that poisoned the waters. I have an interview where Brian says Mike hurt him a few times and Melinda chimes in and say how about a few hundred? Mike's treatment of Al is much more shady in my eyes, but he has his reasons.

I am not dumb enough to blame Leaf for all that is bad but he is someone who thinks other fans are beneth him (I know this first hand). He loves Brian's music but I think he just made a dysfunctional situation worse. He wrote himself into Brian's life and I wonder how ethical that is as his preformed opinions (right and wrong) were so strong. Sure he helped Brian get recognition but in doing so he hurt other people and I cannot get behind that.

 

[Zander]

I am not dumb enough to blame Leaf for all that is bad but he is someone who thinks other fans are beneth him (I know this first hand). He loves Brian's music but I think he just made a dysfunctional situation worse. He wrote himself into Brian's life and I wonder how ethical that is as his preformed opinions (right and wrong) were so strong. Sure he helped Brian get recognition but in doing so he hurt other people and I cannot get behind that.

 

MBE, you really hit the nail on the head with that! 100% agree!

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Cam I didn't think you were writing about David.  I was talking about The What Of Whom mainly but also others who generally have posted things that supported some or all of what I said

Lennon never was quoted as saying anything about Mike. VDP said it. He is REAL impartial. Mike and Brian both have flaws, both are human beings. I see the Leaf book as the non direct root of Mike's irrational actions in the 90s and beyond as far as quotes and lawsuits. He tried too hard to prove he wasn't a no talent and succeded in a way. His songwriting suit was valid, Brian says so I don't care what Asher says he was around six months tops. The Smile one Mike did is baloney. So Mike has been wrong and right like any other human being

Brian let people like David Anderle(who openly admits to doing this)  and Leaf lead him to hate the others at times too. Watch how he speaks of Mike in the UK doc from around 2002 that Stebbins did. Read how he spoke of Carl in Mojo. He can be mean but he and Mike have been very nice and complimentary to each other too. In person they come off as very good friends. That is why I think it is the people (legally and personally) around them that poisoned the waters. I have an interview where Brian says Mike hurt him a few times and Melinda chimes in and say how about a few hundred? Mike's treatment of Al is much more shady in my eyes, but he has his reasons.

I am not dumb enough to blame Leaf for all that is bad but he is someone who thinks other fans are beneth him (I know this first hand). He loves Brian's music but I think he just made a dysfunctional situation worse. He wrote himself into Brian's life and I wonder how ethical that is as his preformed opinions (right and wrong) were so strong. Sure he helped Brian get recognition but in doing so he hurt other people and I cannot get behind that.

 

Very well put Mike.  Too many people have this view that Brian was the only real talent of the group, or that the Wilsons were the only talented ones. Truth is, they *all* were talented; unfortunately, the book (and subsequent things like Beautiful Dreamer) tends to show Leaf's bias. See, ALL of the Beach Boys (and their family and friends, management, ect) have been both heroes AND villains, and to paint one as 100% one way or the other in not honest, or fair. Good point about Brian's comments about Carl, too.

[Glenn Greenberg]

[Good point about Brian's comments about Carl, too.

What were Brian's comments about Carl?

[Bicyclerider]

"I see the Leaf book as the non direct root of Mike's irrational actions in the 90s and beyond as far as quotes and lawsuits. He tried too hard to prove he wasn't a no talent and succeded in a way."

What?  You're blaming the Leaf book for Mike's subsequent lawsuits against Brian and his irrational behavior?  What's your source for this?  If Mike had a problem with Leaf's book, he would have sued Leaf - he's never hesitated to sue anyone else.  Leaf's book, which has its' faults and biases, is not to blame for Mike's anger and resentment towards Brian - that long predated the book's publication.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

True, but it also perpetuated the myth of Mike as the "untalented" one. I don't think that was the impetus behind any of the suits, per se, but I do think that did strain the relationship further.

[Dancing Bear]

We're not able to know what would be the Beach Boys universe like if the Leaf book never existed.  Yes, certainly there was animosity and agression between Mike and Brian before 1978. But after the book there was this myth of the untalented asshole and the genius victim. The first thing I read about the Beach Boys was an early eighties abreviated bio of the band - there it was, the Leaf vision of their history. I'm sure this kind of stuff reached Mike's eyes and ears and being who he is - the typical Beach Boy with a lack of communiction skills - he reacted as he deemed proper.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Let it be known that I, sadly, had bought into that myth for years until relatively recently.

I regret that.

[Glenn Greenberg]

[Good point about Brian's comments about Carl, too.

What were Brian's comments about Carl?

C'mon, fellas, don't keep me in suspense!

[Smilin Ed H]

Doesn't a lot of the antagonism towards Mike also spring from his relationship with Dennis?

[Zander]

[Good point about Brian's comments about Carl, too.

What were Brian's comments about Carl?

C'mon, fellas, don't keep me in suspense!

I think it was something like "Carl can't sing for sh*t". That may be an "Uncut" magazine article though from memory...

[Exapno Mapcase]

"Doesn't a lot of the antagonism towards Mike also spring from his relationship with Dennis?"

And with Blondie... and Jack Rieley... and from his dancing... and his first solo album...
Is it really down to Leaf and BW that Love is considered something of a joke?

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

That post got fubar'd. This is what I was trying to say


Yeah...I think that was it. It's been a few years and I don't remember the exact quote. I do remember everyone on the old Wheeler board (or was it the PSML?) kinda reacting to that with some surprise. Hindsight being 20/20 and all that, that was around the time period where Carl walked out of the sessions for what would've been a new BB album with Brian, which means Carl was either already sick or on the verge.

I think it was something like "Carl can't sing for sh*t". That may be an "Uncut" magazine article though from memory...

[Bicyclerider]

I never thought Leaf's book characterized Mike as untalented - just as conservative and resistant to Brian's desire to pursue his muse which would affect Mike in the pocketbook where it would hurt him the most.  Where does it say anything about Mike's talent?