Carl and Mike's relationship

[SMiLE Brian]

Was "problem child" inspired by Dennis Wilson? I MUST know!

[guitarfool2002]

Was "problem child" inspired by Dennis Wilson? I MUST know!

I think it was an effort to keep the Beach Boys relevant.   

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I think the 1985 album was Carl's last attempt to make the band contemporary. He seemed re-energized and committed to the band after the solo albums and tours - the group even put a few of Carl's solo songs into the shows. When the 1985 album didn't set the world on fire, Carl retreated. It was all Mike's group after that, even if Brian and Al were both allowed a token song on Still Cruisin'. I don't know what else Carl could've done, it was an uphill battle, and the record buyers sure seemed to prefer the retro stuff like Getcha Back to more contemporary sounding songs like It's Gettin' Late. Even Brian, with the music press pushing him as the genius of the group, couldn't get a hit album with his solo debut. The real shame is that the success of Kokomo didn't motivate the band to make one last great album. Landy was not gonna let Brian record with the group unless he was credited as producer and co-writer; Mike just thought the success of Kokomo meant he and Terry should write 12 Kokomo clones; and who knows what Carl and Al thought.

What do you have in mind when you say "allowed"? Mike Love saying "one song each, guys, that's it!"? I think they had to take what was there. And probably the album was handicapped by the usual quarreling, plus Landy. I may be wrong of course.

Mike certainly made it seem like they were forced to include a song by Brian and a song by Al.

[SMiLE Brian]

I want Mike to advise bands on how to stay "relevant"

Mike's rules for Success:
1. Wear neon hats and Zubaz pants.
2. Use cheerleaders and "rappers" in your live show.
3. Hang onto a teenage lifestyle into your 50s.
4. Call your cousin a "genius" for staying home.
5. Use cheap 1980s keyboards for past hits.
6. Have latter day hit song and never let ANYBODY forget it.
7. Go on baywatch with a "current" song.
8. The past is what you want it to be.
9. Play only the hits and covers that sound like them.
10. Pretend that abandoned project that was the best work the group ever did doesn't exist.

[halblaineisgood]

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[halblaineisgood]

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[SMiLE Brian]

The past is what you want it to be? What does this mean?

Even if Mike regrets the "scary" 85-98 era, why should he spend time ruminating on the past?  It "scares" you that Mike refuses to spend his few remaining years on the planet in deep regret for upsetting you with the SIP album? Am I reading you too literally?

No problem, we all get cranky when we don't eat lunch.

I meant by the "past is what you want it to be" statement that the BBs under Mike neglected their back catalog of great music from 1965-1973 and made it look like they were the "endless summer" band playing the early hits and covers.

The "scares" statement is just that I find it odd that Mike won't ever admit he made mistakes in the 1980s-1990s with the BBs brand after Kokomo. This happened in a recent interview where made TWGMTR look like a flop for "only getting to number 3 and no hit singles."

[Lonely Summer]

I think the 1985 album was Carl's last attempt to make the band contemporary. He seemed re-energized and committed to the band after the solo albums and tours - the group even put a few of Carl's solo songs into the shows. When the 1985 album didn't set the world on fire, Carl retreated. It was all Mike's group after that, even if Brian and Al were both allowed a token song on Still Cruisin'. I don't know what else Carl could've done, it was an uphill battle, and the record buyers sure seemed to prefer the retro stuff like Getcha Back to more contemporary sounding songs like It's Gettin' Late. Even Brian, with the music press pushing him as the genius of the group, couldn't get a hit album with his solo debut. The real shame is that the success of Kokomo didn't motivate the band to make one last great album. Landy was not gonna let Brian record with the group unless he was credited as producer and co-writer; Mike just thought the success of Kokomo meant he and Terry should write 12 Kokomo clones; and who knows what Carl and Al thought.

Well, to hear Mike tell it at the time of SIP, if it had been up to him, Still Cruisin' would have been all Melcher/Love songs.

What do you have in mind when you say "allowed"? Mike Love saying "one song each, guys, that's it!"? I think they had to take what was there. And probably the album was handicapped by the usual quarreling, plus Landy. I may be wrong of course.

[Dancing Bear]

The past is what you want it to be? What does this mean?

Even if Mike regrets the "scary" 85-98 era, why should he spend time ruminating on the past?  It "scares" you that Mike refuses to spend his few remaining years on the planet in deep regret for upsetting you with the SIP album? Am I reading you too literally?

No problem, we all get cranky when we don't eat lunch.

I meant by the "past is what you want it to be" statement that the BBs under Mike neglected their back catalog of great music from 1965-1973 and made it look like they were the "endless summer" band playing the early hits and covers.

The "scares" statement is just that I find it odd that Mike won't ever admit he made mistakes in the 1980s-1990s with the BBs brand after Kokomo. This happened in a recent interview where made TWGMTR look like a flop for "only getting to number 3 and no hit singles."

Can you show me any instance where a Beach Boy showed regret for past mistakes? "well I should have been more tactful", "I should have understood his position", "My songs in that album suck, I let the band down". No way. The closer you get is Bruce and his weird self-deprecating humour ("they should never have used my songs, they just don't fit").

You always request things from Mike that you never get from Brian - or Carl, Dennis and Al.

[Mike's Beard]

Well Brian has Jeff for eye candy  

Jeff probably has bigger boobs than most of those women with Mike.

[SMiLE Brian]

The past is what you want it to be? What does this mean?

Even if Mike regrets the "scary" 85-98 era, why should he spend time ruminating on the past?  It "scares" you that Mike refuses to spend his few remaining years on the planet in deep regret for upsetting you with the SIP album? Am I reading you too literally?

No problem, we all get cranky when we don't eat lunch.

I meant by the "past is what you want it to be" statement that the BBs under Mike neglected their back catalog of great music from 1965-1973 and made it look like they were the "endless summer" band playing the early hits and covers.

The "scares" statement is just that I find it odd that Mike won't ever admit he made mistakes in the 1980s-1990s with the BBs brand after Kokomo. This happened in a recent interview where made TWGMTR look like a flop for "only getting to number 3 and no hit singles."

Can you show me any instance where a Beach Boy showed regret for past mistakes? "well I should have been more tactful", "I should have understood his position", "My songs in that album suck, I let the band down". No way. The closer you get is Bruce and his weird self-deprecating humour ("they should never have used my songs, they just don't fit").

You always request things from Mike that you never get from Brian - or Carl, Dennis and Al.

Brian regrets scraping smile and the drug abuse.

Al regrets siding with Mike in the 1970s.

Dennis regretted not going solo.

Carl deeply regretted the 2nd Landy Situation.

All the BBs made horrible choices in 50 years of the group.

[Mike's Beard]

This is almost the same point which was ridiculed and eventually thrown out of court when Saul Zaentz sued John Fogerty for copyright infringement issues based around the song "The Old Man Down The Road" on Fogerty's solo album sounding too much like the old Creedence hit "Run Through The Jungle". The case led to Fogerty taking out a guitar in court and playing for the jury and the judge a demonstration of the tunes and the style called "swamp rock" that both songs shared.

Zaentz was suing Fogerty in part for sounding too much like himself, and for essentially stealing his own song and style from Zaentz's Fantasy-owned Creedence hit and putting it onto Fogerty's non-Zaentz-controlled solo album.

Which was and is patently ridiculous to take a case before a court under a pretense where someone sues an artist and writer for sounding too much like himself.

Should Fogerty have tried to sound like Marvin Hamlisch instead?   Should Brian?

And if Brian's original music may sound too much like the Beach Boys records, it would not be a surprise since this man's musical vision, musical mind, songwriting and arranging style, and overall musical muse is what created 99% of the music on those Beach Boys records which are most fondly remembered by the public.

I'm not sure there is much of a comparison.

It's interesting that since going solo both Al and Brian have gone back to that old Beach Boys image so often.

Al's solo career thus far has consisted of a song paid for by the PT Cruiser and a song and an album about California.

Brian's career has been much more varied but he has still gone back to the fun in the sun image very regularly right from Let's Go to Heaven in My Car. Things like South American, Sunshine, Desert Drive, Forever My Surfer Girl and Mexican Girl (obviously) all fit into the old Beach Boys cliches. The less said about the execrable Speed Turtle the better.

What?

It's exactly the same charge pointed at Brian on this page as was used to try to sue Fogerty for sounding like himself when a solo effort sounded like a song he wrote 15 years earlier for his band Creedence. The Fogerty case and charge got thrown out of court on its ass, as it should have been.

If you don't want to see the comparison, that's one thing, but it's the same basis for both points, only one was taken to court by a team of lawyers and the other was posted on a message board.

Case closed.

The original point wasn't about Al, it's not even an issue what his records sound like because he's not primarily known as a songwriter by the majority of the public and the original charge was that Brian's music was still sounding like Beach Boys records. Why even bring Al or his records into this discussion?

Am I the only one who thinks it's absurd to suggest Brian's music hasn't progressed because it still sounds like Beach Boys records?

The same guy wrote it! Naturally it would have the same traits, signatures, and quirks.

Again I ask, should Brian write songs that sound like Marvin Hamlisch instead?

End of story.

I see it more as Darian, Foskett, Joe Thomas etc trying to clone the Pet Sounds/California Girls style arrangements to everything Brian does these days. If given true 100% creative freedom, I'm positive Brian would be making music that sounded like 'Love You' only with more modern synths.

[Mike's Beard]

Even in 1965, Brian was using the BBs and the WC to make "pop symphonies" unlike the 1963 garage material. California girls, the quintessential "formula" song, features a complex backing track based off Bach. The progression with Pet Sounds through love you sound nothing like the early material.

As Brian ages, he likes to look back to his prime and makes new music using his BBs sound. While Mike threw away his talents developed on Wild Honey through Holland to relive the past. It can't be 1964 forever, Mike.

You should hurry and tell Mike this....

Living in the past has gotta be rough:

I wonder how much Mr L paid them to walk on his testicles in their high heels later on?

[Dancing Bear]

The past is what you want it to be? What does this mean?

Even if Mike regrets the "scary" 85-98 era, why should he spend time ruminating on the past?  It "scares" you that Mike refuses to spend his few remaining years on the planet in deep regret for upsetting you with the SIP album? Am I reading you too literally?

No problem, we all get cranky when we don't eat lunch.

I meant by the "past is what you want it to be" statement that the BBs under Mike neglected their back catalog of great music from 1965-1973 and made it look like they were the "endless summer" band playing the early hits and covers.

The "scares" statement is just that I find it odd that Mike won't ever admit he made mistakes in the 1980s-1990s with the BBs brand after Kokomo. This happened in a recent interview where made TWGMTR look like a flop for "only getting to number 3 and no hit singles."

Can you show me any instance where a Beach Boy showed regret for past mistakes? "well I should have been more tactful", "I should have understood his position", "My songs in that album suck, I let the band down". No way. The closer you get is Bruce and his weird self-deprecating humour ("they should never have used my songs, they just don't fit").

You always request things from Mike that you never get from Brian - or Carl, Dennis and Al.

Brian regrets scraping smile and the drug abuse.

Al regrets siding with Mike in the 1970s.

Dennis regretted not going solo.

Carl deeply regretted the 2nd Landy Situation.

All the BBs made horrible choices in 50 years of the group.

Oh well. Let's see...

Brian regrets scrapping Smile, for sure, but who did he blame for it in the Beautiful Dreamer DVD? Clue: it was a statement that made oldsurferdude dance the fandango.

Where's the interview where Dennis regrets not going solo? And Carl's quote about making a big mistake when bringing in Landy for the second time? I'm sure they did in private, but your concern was about doing it in public, wasn't it? If we will especulate about private concerns, we can daydream about Mike regretting SIP as well, don't you agree?

Finally, I'll give you Al . Yes, he did.

[SMiLE Brian]

You don't need interviews to show regret,

Brian has always regretted not finishing smile for his own sake, not just in the 2004 puff piece.

Dennis didn't finish bamboo and practically drank himself to death after giving up the POB tour.

Carl fought for years behind the scenes to free Brian and it took a huge toll on his health.


Mike just makes himself a target with his personality in general. From the rock and roll HOF speech to the 1992 goldmine article where he said Brian's solo album was "crap"

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I meant the would-be hit chasing with Kokomo clones and SIP along with the bizarre live show (cheerleaders, Billy H. rapping, etc.) that killed the image of the group.

But that's what bands do! Wasn't Heroes & Villains a hit chasing attempt/Good Vibrations clone in a way?

This must be a joke. ^^

Not at all.... Nor is it a criticism. H&V (as with Smile in general) was most certainly an attempt (in part, and an awesome attempt) at running with the groundbreaking "thing" Brain arrived at with Good Vibrations: a song/production with all sorts of twists and turns and tape edits n such.... No big deal.

[Dancing Bear]

You don't need interviews to show regret,

Ok, let's read minds then.

Brian has always regretted not finishing smile for his own sake, not just in the 2004 puff piece.

Where does Brian ever said that he scrapped Smile by himself? What can I do if he blames someone else as usual for it in a high-profile release? Should I blame David Leaf for the "puff piece"? Poor Brian, always manipulated...

Dennis didn't finish bamboo and practically drank himself to death after giving up the POB tour.

And Mike ruined n marriages till he met Jackie. I guess he may blame the non-release of "First Love" for it. :-)

Carl fought for years behind the scenes to free Brian and it took a huge toll on his health.

Carl never said much of anything, blaming or taking the blame. The guy was always extremely private.

Mike just makes himself a target with his personality in general. From the rock and roll HOF speech to the 1992 goldmine article where he said Brian's solo album was "crap"

I agree. I just don't understand why you need a mea-culpa from him because SIP sucks. Will you campaign to obtain a admission of guilt from Brian as well for the suckiness of 15 Big Ones? Oh wait, he was forced to produce a new album after Endless Summer, then it's different, he was manipulated and used by the band. Except dor Dennis and Carl, they are Wilsons after all.

[Dancing Bear]

I meant the would-be hit chasing with Kokomo clones and SIP along with the bizarre live show (cheerleaders, Billy H. rapping, etc.) that killed the image of the group.

But that's what bands do! Wasn't Heroes & Villains a hit chasing attempt/Good Vibrations clone in a way?

This must be a joke. ^^

Not at all.... Nor is it a criticism. H&V (as with Smile in general) was most certainly an attempt (in part, and an awesome attempt) at running with the groundbreaking "thing" Brain arrived at with Good Vibrations: a song/production with all sorts of twists and turns and tape edits n such.... No big deal.

I think The Little Girl I once Knew is more of a clone of California Girls. But H&V has 'follow-up to Good Vibrations' written all  over it, and it's fine. Brian is a genius but he never had the widest range as a songwriter.

[SMiLE Brian]

All I am saying is that I don't like Mike's arrogance in putting "TWGTMR" down as a flop, when he did not do better leading the BBs with SIP.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

All I am saying is that I don't like Mike's arrogance in putting "TWGTMR" down as a flop, when he did not do better leading the BBs with SIP.

Well, ya know: at least SIP was HIS flop

[Dancing Bear]

No, you were saying you deserve his apology for SIP. Let's not rewrite history. 

[Nicko1234]

All I am saying is that I don't like Mike's arrogance in putting "TWGTMR" down as a flop, when he did not do better leading the BBs with SIP.

That's not what he said though is it?

I actually haven't seen Mike really interviewed about the period from 1985 onwards apart from when he is asked about Kokomo which is a shame.

[Nicko1234]

Can you show me any instance where a Beach Boy showed regret for past mistakes? "well I should have been more tactful", "I should have understood his position", "My songs in that album suck, I let the band down". No way. The closer you get is Bruce and his weird self-deprecating humour ("they should never have used my songs, they just don't fit").

You always request things from Mike that you never get from Brian - or Carl, Dennis and Al.

In the BBC documentary Mike said something like, 'I think that being related has allowed us to be much more horrible to each other than non-related people could have been'. Or words to that affect. An interesting comment.

I think has commented showing regret for pretty much everything he has ever done.  Surfin' Down the Swanee River, How She Boogalooed It, lending Charles Manson his guitar and never getting it back (?!?) etc.

[Nicko1234]

If you don't want to see the comparison, that's one thing, but it's the same basis for both points, only one was taken to court by a team of lawyers and the other was posted on a message board.

I think comparing one person posting an opinion on a message board to somebody being taken to court is buffoonery. Kill me.  

I mentioned Al because I was getting the subject back closer towards the original topic of the later years of The Beach Boys. Al was obviously a big part of the Mike/Carl relationship because he was such a pain in the proverbial (and I like Al I should say) during that period. From various sources it has been claimed that Al complained about performing Kokomo live, refused to sing Somewhere Near Japan due to the drug references and also wasn't happy to sing Summer in Paradise. It's interesting to me that he made so many complaints about the group at that time and the setlists before going solo and doing much the same as The BBs had done. Playing a greatest hits set at casinos and outdoor shows and singing songs about cars for PT Cruiser money. He obviously realized this is what the public wanted.

I think Brian's management have also realized how narrow the public perception can be and even he has been forced at times into playing greatest hits sets and recording stuff about cars and girls.

When you see some of the stuff that Al and Brian have done due to public demand, it isn't really such a surprise that The BBs turned into the act that they did in the 1980s.

[Cam Mott]

Didn't Terry Melcher produce SIP?