The Smiley Smile Message Board

I've had a few dozen thoughts/questions that are pretty minor and probably don't deserve their own thread. Thus, I'd like to ask a couple of them here and I encourage others to do the same.

Question 1: There's a song that starts with, "My folks have a friend who knows an old lady." It's a song about some old lady's car being stolen or something. It's a Brian vocal, he complains that he can't sing the song throughout (which is actually pretty amusing).

I've seen at least three different titles given for it - what is the proper title and what era is it?

Also, anyone else think the track for this song sounds a whole hell of a lot like "Morning Beat"?

Question 2: Do Carl or Dennis' lead vocals still exist anywhere for "Sail On Sailor"? Anyone here heard them - do you feel their vocals are worthy of release some day, or are they just scratch takes?

The song referenced in Question 1 is entitled Walkin', recorded initially in 1968 during the tail end of the Friends period, and worked on a bit more during the sessions for the "last Capitol album". It was on a compilation tape named "Sun Flower" given to Warner Bros. when Mo Ostin signed the group in 1969. If it was seriously considered for the actual Sunflower album beyond its appearance on the aforementioned reel, it's doubtful. The track as it exists features incomplete vocals and a very dejected lead from Brian - note his "I don't wanna sing this" when the drums come in at the beginning.

Morning Beat does seem to take part of its verse melody from Walkin'. On a related note, the "mow mamayama glory hallejulah" refrain is a slightly revised riff that Brian was working on in 1975-76 called Clangin', or simply Clang as Brian referred to it in a 1976 interview.

Question 2 - Steve Desper reminisced on here a while back that he produced some sessions for Sail On Sailor in 1971, apparently it was sung by Carl. Dennis' vocals were initially going to be on the Holland cut, but apparently he couldn't hack it, hence Blondie's lead. I don't recall if the track still exists. Certainly, I've never heard them. Of course, the timeline is a bit skewed since the famous "hypnotize me, Van Dyke" cassette tape was from sometime in 1972. Who knows? Ask Brian on the blueboard. :)

Thanks a lot! Am attempting to sort rarities by era, this helps.

I wonder if Walkin was attempted again by Brian somtime during the Sunflower period. It's clear he doesn't like the song, but at the same time I like the vocal he partially laid down. I only ask this because I wouldn't think it would be on the reel unfinished.

Yeah, the Walkin' - Morning Beat connection is an interesting one. You can sing the verses of Morning Beat to the verse of Walkin' -- but the lines scan differently (two lines of MB to one line of Walkin), and there's no chorus in Walkin'. Like a few other bits of TLOS, it seems like Brian took a riff / melody fragment from the past and worked it into something different. You can see this in Goin' Home -- where he takes the first two lines of a song he wrote with Paley and transforms it into a rockin' blues tune -- or "Message Man," which takes its opening six-note phrase from "Marketplace" and then moves in a peculiarly BW direction.

Blondie's recollection isn't exactly that Dennis "couldn't hack it"...but that DW became impatient with the length of the session because he had a new board, it was getting late, and he really wanted to go surfing, he split mid-sesion and Carl tossed the lead to Blondie. Dennis' vocal attempt was wiped apparently.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbLx5Y5zRww

Al wearing white shorts and shoes with black socks. Was he single then or did his wife just want him to look like a dork?

Did anyone on stage or in the organization not have a....eh....queer eye to offer some advice?

No one but Al Jardine is supposed to understand Al Jardine's wardrobe choices.

If you're curious about "Queer Eye" type issues, check out my new, self-indulgent thread.

Awesome, this is a good thread. On the That's Not Me session highlights from the Pet Sounds box, what are they singing in the background towards the end of the track? I can't make out what they're saying.

Don't worry .... Brian did EVERYTHING humanly possibly to detract from Al's socks ....

... also if anybody EVER comes on this website again to complain about Brian just sitting behind his keyboards they should be forced to watch that clip!

I always thought Al sang Walkin'.

From Jay:  "I always thought Al sang Walkin'. "

He did.

1967-74 Brian and Al are easily confused but Brian stops mid song and says I don't want to sing this sh-t.

Yeah, pretty clearly Brian .

He seems to really get into it with the, "Keep going, man," but then stops with the, "f***, I can't sing this bitch." A pretty funny listen, as is the beginning of the song with Brian making fun of his own vocal tone and again saying that he does not want to sing the song.

Another inconsequential question but in interviews in 1981 Mike talked about still writing songs with Brian and Brian having written one called Sweetie. Have many bootlegs emerged of songs recorded by the band in the year or two following KTSA? And is the aforementioned song any good?

I have one! 

I've seen lots of references to the misprinting of "don't break down" instead of "don't back down" on the cover of the first pressing of All Summer Long, but I'm curious how many copies were printed?  Are we talking like, a "Butcher Cover" sort of misprint, where like ten albums went out, or did they make a whole bunch of them?  I just found a copy! :-) and so I was wondering... 

also, what ratio of mono to stereo albums, in general, went out for the Beach Boys pre-pet sounds...I know the stereo was fake as often as not, but ignoring that, was it half and half?  3/4 stereo 1/4 mono? 

Is that where they put the background vocals from I Just Wasnt Made...? I think those are Spanish lyrics, and there was a recent thread about those. http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,7879.0.html (http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,7879.0.html)

I may be wrong about this, but I think "Sweetie" became "Love Ya" on the SWEET INSANITY album. Of course, this still wasn't officially released so there's a chance Brian may revisit it again in the future.

Sweetie did become Love Ya -- which became Sweetie again during the sessions for Carnie and Wendy's album in 96-97. Their version was never released either.

Aha! We can probably start placing bets that some semblance of "Sweetie" will show up on PLEASURE ISLAND...if that album ever comes to fruition.

They actually did some recording in '80-81 and laid down about half a dozen songs, "Sweetie" being one of them.  None of them have been bootlegged to my knowledge, but I could be wrong about that.  I think that "Be My Baby" from Mike's solo album was one of these tracks.

Don't Break Down was printed on the front cover of the entire first pressing of the ASL LP. This means there were hundreds of thousands printed. Not a very rare rarity. The second printing corrected it.

Brian and Michael did a few sessions at Michael's home studio in '80, then Brian was recording a lot in '81. Sweetie is booted in piano/vocal form, as are two other 1981 Brian songs, Reins and Walking On Water.

I snuck this in the Knebworth thread but have had no answer. Wondering if anyone knows where it came from please?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoX1SmknVDs

20/20 (or a similar US TV program) aired a profile on the BB's upcoming 20th anniversary year. That's what this footage is from. The entire show has circulated among collectors for decades.

"...because we're so good!"

Gotta love that guy.

On another Youtube clip Al and Bruce talk about recording a live album in Cleveland in 1982. Did this recording take place and, if so, why wasn't it released?

One song did - "Runaway", on the 1986 Sunkist album.  :)

Sunkist album?? :o :o

(http://i50.tinypic.com/14n1gnb.jpg)

Sunkist album.  ;D

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://991.com/newgallery/Beach-Boys-25-Years-Of-Good-356798.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.musicstack.com/album/beach_boys/25_years_of_good_vibrations&usg=__Rekz1INxBwujEmHl4E5Lzzj4tHE=&h=465&w=450&sz=40&hl=en&start=8&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=WsQ7evHSlioHRM:&tbnh=128&tbnw=124&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%2522Beach%2BBoys%2522%2B%252BSunkist%2B%252Balbum%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1%26newwindow%3D1 (http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://991.com/newgallery/Beach-Boys-25-Years-Of-Good-356798.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.musicstack.com/album/beach_boys/25_years_of_good_vibrations&usg=__Rekz1INxBwujEmHl4E5Lzzj4tHE=&h=465&w=450&sz=40&hl=en&start=8&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=WsQ7evHSlioHRM:&tbnh=128&tbnw=124&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%2522Beach%2BBoys%2522%2B%252BSunkist%2B%252Balbum%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1%26newwindow%3D1)

Side 1
1. Rock 'N' Roll To The Rescue
2. California Dreamin'
3. Runaway
4. California Girls
5. Wouldn't It Be Nice

Side 2
1. Good Vibrations
2. Fun, Fun, Fun
3. Getcha Back
4. Beach Boys Medley.

That infamous medley...gotta love Stars On 45!!

About that medley: I've never understood why they bothered to add (or rather the early 80s equivalent to copy/paste) extra handclaps to the portion of "I Get Around". Granted, a lot more could be questioned regarding the medley.

In Al's defense (which I am not sure is totally possible in this case), I think he is wearing red socks to match his red shirt.

my dear lord.

The best part was that Sunkist was the official sponsor of one of the 1986 tours!

"Ladies and gentlemen, SUNKIST proudly presents from Southern California: America's Band, THE BEACH BOYS!" - Audio proof from a York, PA show in 1986.

Oh, you'd BETTER believe it. :)

Thanks Jon.

If you listen closely, Brian(?) says "keep going Al".

"Keep going, man."

Just Brian saying it during his vocal take.

Somewhere in my collection I have a Sunkist T.V. commercial with a rip off band doing a badly reworked version of Good Vibrations. I can't figure out if they are being serious, or doing a parody.

so..... where can I hear the tune "Walkin"???

I feel like it's on a BB/BW doc....I'm thinking the A&E Bio to Brian Wilson.

Gym Class Heroes did yet another crappy cover of it for a new Sunkist commercial a couple years ago.

Aaand that's probably why I couldn't understand it :P Thanks for bringing the thread to my attention, I don't remember seeing it before.

On the cover of the new(ish, from last year) Capitol Pet Sounds vinyl reissues, why are Sloop John B. and Caroline No taken out of the regular order of the track listing and placed at the top? They're also in white while the rest are in yellow. Not that it matters at all, I'm just curious as to why they've been put in front.

That's how they appeared on the original 1966 covers.

And I think the reasoning for that was that they were the two singles released prior to the album's release.

I have a question about I Just Wasn't Made For These Times(the song). It's probably something that a lot of people here know, but it's just something that has bugged me. When Brian sings "sometimes I feel very sad", what is Mike(?) singing at the same time underneath Brian? I've never been able to make it out.

Aren't those vocals the Spanish lyrics Brian forgot about?

"O cuándo seré... un dia seré..."

They mean 'Oh, when will I be...? One day I will be...?'

Brian was using Spanish during the recording of Pet Sounds for some reason... during the tracking of one song, I can't remember which, he calls for 'Take Eight... Ocho... Eight'. Didn't he learn some at school or something?

Anyway, the vocals are there in IJWMFTT. But by the time the Pet Sounds box set and stereo mix was released in 1996 he'd forgotten all about them. If I remember the story correctly, someone asked him why he'd put Spanish BVs on that track, and he said 'WHAT Spanish vocals? There aren't any!' So they played him the isolated vocals and he was absolutely, completely surprised. I seem to recall he said something like 'Well I'll be damned'.

Such a memory loss isn't all that amazing. I mean, it's incredible that Brian even knows who he is when you consider all the drugs he took. And of course, although I remember that this story is true and that I read it somewhere, *I* can't remember where... and that's only 13.5 years ago. And I haven't taken a fraction of the drugs Brian did through the years... ;)

MattB

In case it wasn't the Spanish vocals you were asking about, the countervocal to "Sometimes I feel very sad" is reportedly "Can't find nothing I can put my heart and soul into" (although I will often hear this as "Don't know what my heart and soul are into"). And I believe it's Brian doing that vocal since his is the only voice heard on the song, right?

Taken from the Columbia tape log, of the seven vocal tracks on this song, one says 'group': the other six say 'Bryan'.

Ummmm... box set released 1997... this is 2009... my math makes that 12, not 13 1/2.  ;D

Except that the reporting of Brian's response and reaction were printed in successive Breakaway with Brian Wilson newsletters of 1996. So the 13 years is more accurate.

'Course - forgot it was supposed to be a 1996 release. Still got the promo cassettes from '96 somewhere.

Which all makes perfect sense (aside from the misspelling); the group sang the spanish backing vocals (and the harmony stack at the end, presumably), and Brian sang (and doubled) the three other lines ("sometimes I feel very sad," "can't find the right thing I can put my heart and soul into," and "people I know don't wanna be where I'm at") and obviously the lead. 

Funny, isn't it, how you remember some things accurately but not others — I knew I'd read that in 1996 and not 1997, but can't remember where it was that I read it! It may have been an edition of 'Breakaway...' from back then, yes — I was never a subscriber, but people used to post bits on-line and perhaps that was one of them (or were the newsletters even up in full at Brian's old site? I can't remember). So when I read that, that must have been after work was complete on the Pet Sounds box in 1995-6, but before it actually came out in 1997.

MattB

I've always been curious about any other songs The Beach Boys performed during the New Year's Rockin' Eve ABCTV show, 1974. There is/was footage on Youtube of the band playing "Good Vibrations" (group) and "Darlin" (with Chicago). Carl, Al and Mike also provided harmonies on "Wishing You Were Here". Apparently "Surfer Girl" was played too although, to the best of my knowledge, footage of this has not yet surfaced.

A photo of the band taken at the show reveals Carl playing a 12-string guitar which he didn't use during "GV" or "Darlin'". I doubt that it's a shot of them playing "Surfer Girl" either as the tambourine seems out of place and Carl is standing back from his mic in a song which features full group vocals throughout.

This is purely my theory:

Al is upfront and seems to be singing lead. Carl and Al appear to be playing an A chord. Mike is on tambourine suggesting an uptempo number. In Concert features such a song which was transposed from its original key of C sharp to the key of A during this period: "Help Me Rhonda".

I also recall seeing a banjo resting on top of one of the amps. IIRC Al played the banjo at Wembley in 1975 and that concert included "California Saga/California" so is it possible they played that here too?

Cool performances by The Beach Boys (despite Dennis's absence) and ones that I hope would see legitimate release someday.

(http://i351.photobucket.com/albums/q476/marcus1970/rockineve.jpg)

Nice theory, Loaf. I hope there's anyone that could tell more about it.


Footage of all 4 songs exists, and circulates among collectors. From time to time you'll see it on YouTube, but apparently those who own the copyrights of that broadcast keep a good eye on it...

Why is '409' (#76) on almost every Beach Boys hit compilation while 'Heroes And Villains' (#12) and 'Be True To Your School' (#6) are often missing?

Where does the story come from that The Beach Boys returned from Japan and found out about "all that weird new music" that Brian had been making, when the only things that Brian recorded during their absence was 'Let's Go Away For Awhile' (shouldn't be too weird for a band that had already released 'The Nearest Faraway Place' en 'Summer Means New Love'), 'Wouldn't It Be Nice' (probably the most "normal" song on the whole record) and the intro of 'You Still Believe In Me'?

- How could 'Pet Sounds' chart so (relatively) low in the US when it had more US top 40 hits than any other Beach Boys album before or since?

- Who compiled the 'Best Of The Beach Boys' LPs (from 1966/1967/1968) and what was he smoking at the time?

- Why didn't the band return to "the formula" when Brian stepped back in 1967?

huh? You're a few years off with that one. and traditionally, instrumentals were filler/b-side material.

I imagine the lyrics to WIBN might have been a turn off.
Plus, just because the songs weren't recorded doesn't mean they hadn't been written. Brian probably played them to the group at his house.

I guess this also has been covered..... but was Pet Sounds really undermined by Capitol? I've read stories about them not sending out more copies to stores and whatnot, although these sound slightly spurious.

And i suppose they just didn't want to follow the same old schtick, although that doesn't explain Do It Again. I guess they got tired of it too, although a little too late.

Thats my guess, anyway.

You're right, of course. Slip of my mind.

I don't see how the lyrics to WIBN could've been a problem. A year before the summer of love, they were singing "Gee, I wish we were old enough to get married so that we could finally sleep together". Must've sounded pretty conservative even for that time.

And besides that, to my ears there really isn't that much on 'Pet Sounds' that would've been terrible out of place on side B of 'Today!' - apart from maybe a few experimental things like the YSBIM intro or the "woo-woo machine" on IJWMFTT.

So what I'm really wondering is: were people really so worried about the actual sound of the slower songs on 'Pet Sounds', or was it just because there were so many of them? Imagine if side A of 'Today!' would've been identical to side B... I guess Brian would've gotten the same kind of resistance as he got with 'Pet Sounds'.

The lyrics to WIBN are melancholy stuff. It's attached to an estatic arrangement which distracts from their emotional punch,  but still they're as sad as hell. The group/label wanted happier material, i'm guessing.

I can't picture a lot of Pet Sounds on Today - the arrangements are more complex, and the subject matter slightly more emotional too. But i get what you're saying.

I guess some just thought it was not what the public wanted. I'm not sure whether record buyers minded so much, or were that hostile to it - as you mentioned, Pet Sounds had more hits on it than their other albums.

409 was the band's first "Car" hit...and it was a bigger hit than Surfin' Safari in some major markets across the U.S.

Pet Sounds charted relatively low because it didn't sell well enough to chart higher. LP charts are based on sales...singles charts are a mix of sales and radio play.

Someone at Capitol with no aesthetic skills.

The band didn't return to the "formula"...because Carl and Dennis (combined with Brian) had more leverage over direction than Mike...and the "formula' thing is mostly BS anyway.

Is that true of 1967? I would have thought that Mike would have had more say than Dennis at that point as he was co-writing almost every song on Wild Honey. But the band hadn't recorded any cars or surfing songs for a while and Mike was probably happy to write songs about other subjects.

Yes, I found that interesting, too. I'm used to reading that Carl and particularly Dennis weren't taken seriously as composers, had their songs rejected, and ultimately lost out on most votes. I guess that happened when Brian began "to give" his vote to Mike.

I think SJS is confusing '67  with '76...I wasn't specifically talking about CW & DW's songs anyway, that would be irrelevant since neither had written much yet...but I was referring to aesthetic direction of the band. Also... I never said Dennis had more say than Mike in '67...he didn't. I said In 1967 Carl and Dennis(combined with Brian) had more say over the direction of the BB's than Mike. They did. Therefore if Mike really wanted to "return to the formula" he would have needed an ally like Brian or CW+DW to pull it off.  However, I also said that the "formula" thing is mostly BS anyway...meaning that none of them (including Mike) truly wanted to return to the formula. That's been hyped out of proportion. The orig. question was...why didn't they return to the formula when Brian receded in '67. Right? That question assumes Mike had the power and the desire to do this, since HE is the one always charged with wanting to return. But the answer is HE had neither.  I would have thought you guys could have gleaned that from what I wrote the first time...didn't expect to have to spell it out for you. 

Sorry you had to "spell it out" for us, Jon. We'll try to do a better job next time at understanding you the first time, then we won't have to inconvenience you into "explaining" your thoughts.

The "formula" thing has always bugged me too. Not so much as to debate if it's BS or not. I think it's both true AND  b.s, but that's another argument. What I don't understand is the whole problem with Mike apparantly pushing for a return to it. Or whatever the case: the Beach Boys degenerating into a hits only travelling jukebox that was dragged out of some garage where it had sat since 1965. As myself and others have stated, the Beach Boys were always ahead of the curve in so many ways. Pretty much every major band has returned to "The Formula" at some point or another. Go see U2 and tell me how many songs they play from the POP album! Fogerty now plays all the old Creedence Hits! There are other examples, but it doesn't even matter. Just how many surfing or car songs did the Beach Boys record and release since Do It Again in 1969? I'm assuming that surfing and or car songs mark the criteria as to what is usually negatively referred to as the formula that Mike supposedly was pushing for! If this is the case, he pretty much failed!

Everybody needs someone to blame and sometimes the criticisms of Mike have been fair and sometimes they haven't been. The formula has been returned to several times in Brian's solo career as well though which many people choose to ignore.

Has it ever been said what linked "Time to Get Alone" to Smile? It was apparently considered for Brian Wilson Presents Smile.

Or has it been confirmed that "Can't Wait Too Long" has origins in the Smile sessions?

The riff is pretty much identical to Wind Chimes....

Here's one. Were there an alternate set of lyrics to Don't Worry Baby? If Brian was shopping it to Spector, it would have to have been from the female perspective, girl groups and all that. Any ideas?

If you don't mind, runnersdialzero, I'd like to throw "Diamond Head" and "Tones" (was Brian involved) into your question also....

You know, I've never thought about that, but its a great question.  Brian wanted Ronnie Spector to sing it, so the lyrics must have been a little different.  I've never heard anything about it, but I would think that the original lyrics were similar to those in the versions of the song subsequently sung by females (Lorrie Morgan's is the first example that comes to mind)

I believe the "link" existed simply due to the proximity of its writing to the SMiLE period. Remember, back in '03 the intention was to perform "SMiLE"-period songs live in concert in some kind of organized fashion. I believe Darian printed out cards for Brian with the names of every known song/recording from mid-'66 to mid-'67 with the instructions for Brian to review them and determine which songs he wanted to perform from this period, and, specifically, which ones were directly related to the SMiLE project. I'm thinking "Time To Get Alone" was one Brian was keen on performing for a while so it made it into the list for the SMiLE shows. Once Brian and Darian started to piece together the songs, the initial plan quickly evolved into "finishing" SMiLE as a concert piece and songs like "Time To Get Alone" and "Diamond Head" were left by the wayside.

They did, however, include "TTGA" during the first set at the RFH shows in February 2004. Unwisely, as it was something of a train-wreck.  ???

How bad?

On the recording I have of one of them, Jeff ends up taking the majority of the lead as Brian, I think, knows it's too high for him. When Brian does sing his vocal is not all that good although the arrangement is fine.

Wasn't there an alternate/early lyric about a boy being sent to war?

Of course Jeff would do something like this.

Check out Rich E P's post:
http://www.shutdown-vol2.com/forum/index.php?topic=3324.msg53641#msg53641

Yes! For once, memory serves me right! :)

Only Brian Wilson could write a song, change it almost 100%....and eventually go back to the first version again.  ;D

I decided to bring this topic back up, because I have a few questions:

1. During the last year or so of Dennis's life, did he and Mike really hate each other's guts as badly as has been stated in various books? Did Mike and Dennis really have a restraing order against each other, while the group was on tour? How did Mike take Dennis's death?

2. When Brian got clean and sober in 1983, how was his relationship with Dennis? Did they actually have a relationship, or did Landy keep them as far apart as possible?

3. Why didn't the beach boys actually break up, for good? With all the chaos and hatred and general misery going on, why didn't they just call it a day, and try to hold on to whatever sanity they had left? They seem to have broken up a few times, but they always got back together again after a few weeks or months. You would think that the easy thing to do would be to break up, and just avoid each other as much as possible.

Edit: One more question:

4. Why did The Beach Boys occasionally do the discarded "hum be da" section of Good Vibrations in concert around the 1977-78 period?

I know that in Austrailia Carl was dragging "gotta keep those loving good vibrations..." on and on and on and Brian, of all people, got bored and started up the "hum be dums" section to end the song or at least move onto something new. You can hear this on the "Endless Bummer" bootleg and Brian starts it quite a bit off key. Hilarious.

I've heard that version. I always wondered why Brian did that. I mean, the "hum be da" thing specifically. I know that it was to get the song "back on track", but why an aborted Good Vibrations section, of all things? It's just another reason(of many) why I'd like to live in Brian's brain for a few days. Somebody once also mentioned on here that the group did the "hum be da" section at a show in Seattle in 1977.

1. Love/Hate with hate usually winning out. Yes. Did you see Endless Harmony? In EH Mike tells you exactly how he took Dennis' death.
2. They kept him away from Dennis... except at concerts and promo events.
3.$$$$
4. No reason other than it was part of the arsenal.

Jon, I remember reading an interview with Mike several years back (was it the '92 Goldmine issue?), where he said he and Dennis actually did not have a mutual restraining order, but rather it was his brother Stan and Dennis.  And, probably around the time of Stan's 1990 attempt to gain conservatorship of Brian, I seem to recall it being reported that Mike had once charged Stan with "false imprisonment".  Anyone remember that?  If not, I'll try and dig out the sources when I have a chance.

Thanks C-man...so mutual restraining order with Stan, well documented physical altercations with Mike, Stan and Steve... DW quote in L.A. Times in late '78 stating DW won't have anything to do with the Beach Boys as long as Steve Love is involved with their business...DW MIU quote about Mike and his F'd Up karma, etc... etc...I guess he had a problem with the Loves eh?

Only the male ones, apparently...  ;D

Yowsa!!

Dennis and Maureen?

Shawn.

More than Shawn according to inside legend and really old court documents...

So, Maureen, AND( probably), the reason for each of Mike's divorces. 

I don't think Jon means Mike's sister. The second wife fling is well known though

I learn something new about The Beach Boys or/and Dennis every day.  ;D

Ok, I have another question. What is Ecology? I just stumbled on this interesting recording today. What year was it made in? Who was involved in the recording?

It's know that Dennis & Suzanne had a fling - Brian quite causally mentioned it in a 2005 interview about something else entirely, and threw Marilyn into the mix for good measure.

"Ecology" was the working title for a track Dennis worked on during his 1971 solo album sessions: the intro became the intro to "River Song".

Sorry, just read your post properly. Unless someone's been exceedingly careless, what you've heard isn't "Ecology".

OT: I always found it tragic that the BBs who did their utmost best to destroy their own bodies were so involved with the preservation of nature and health (POB, the Radiant Radish). A psychiatrist would probably call it: living in denial; but this author has no doubt that their intentions were utmost sincere.

That was what struck me about Dennis - at the precise moment he was saying anything, he was sincere, 100%. But five minutes later, could be a different tale.

Nice call, cheers.

And Al's wife Lynda.

Is that interview readily available?

If it's the same interview that AGD is talking about, it was in Q magazine and the question was something like:

Q. Did Dennis deserve his reputation as a ladies man?

A. Well, he had sex with my wife, Mike's wife and Al's wife, so yes.

That's the one ! Brian's phraseology killed me: "he had intercourse with many women - my wife, Mike's wife, Alan's wife..."

Brian's the exact same way, in my estimation, that's why his favorite albums have gone from "Friends" to "Carl and the Passions" and "Holland" to "Summer Days" to "Love You" many times over.

1. What was the relationship between Carl and Mike like?  We know a lot about Mike's relationship with Brian and Dennis but he really has never said anything about Carl and Carl never really said anything about him.

2. Who was responsible for the live arrangements of songs?

3. Starting with the 1976 the touring band exploded in size (horns, 3 or 4 keyboard players, Charles Lloyd, Ed Carter and Bobby F on percussion).   Why did they do this?

4. It has been reported that Carl and Brian had a strained relationship from about 1975 until a year or so prior to Carl's passing.  What was the problem?

What do you mean? The recording I have heard has the River Song melody, first played on piano, and then on  what sounds like a synthesizer. Then there is another section that has Dennis singing something along the lines of "Our Love, is bigger than the ocean". Then it ends with with mid tempo drums and guitar.

Sorry to butt in again, but I have a question about this subject(highlighted above). Why did the group only very rarely play the middle eight(is that what you'd call it?) of God Only Knows as heard on the original studio version? Most of the time when the song was played live, that section was substituted for another melody.

Another connected question, it's often said that Carl wanted the band to rehearse more and that Mike wasn't really interested in doing so. As Mike wouldn't really have been needed at rehearsals though, is it widely felt that Al and Bruce (and Brian and Dennis when around for that matter) also weren't really into doing that much preparation for shows?

I think I know the section you're talking about...I would more accurately descrbe it as the short instrumental break before the middle eight/bridge.  I've always wondered that too.  Brian himself altered this section on the Lei'd In Hawaii version, and the band just seemed to go along with it from there on in.  The little walk up is easier to play for sure, but that can't be the entire reason.  My best guess is that without additional musicians on stage with them, that section wouldn't sound the same as on the original recording, so they decided to keep it simple.  

Yeah, but even after they got lots of extra musicians onstage with them, they still skipped that part for years (until the early-mid '90s, I think).  And even then, they didn't quite get it right.

"Some people are addicted to drugs, some people are addicted to alcohol... But I'm addicted to making people happy."
 ::)

That's a good point...maybe they just didn't like that part and thought that the walk up sounded better.  The part on the studio recording was a bit jarring for me when I first heard it, so perhaps they were worried that the audience would have a similar reaction.  That or they were just lazy.

How many weeks did Pet Sounds stay on the charts before it fell off back when it was originally relased?

Check it out here - http://www.btinternet.com/~bellagio/charts.html (http://www.btinternet.com/~bellagio/charts.html)

.

39 weeks.

Carnie Wilson Unstapled. Who needs it?

Me!  Me!!

So I've had this Odeon Records Version of Smile for a while, and it contains all the standard stuff, however it also has a version of Can't Wait Too Long, the first thirty seconds of which I've never heard before. It starts with a really mournful acapella part featuring a female voice and then breaks into a version of the main part of the song with clapping. Does anybody know where exactly this is from?

Did Bruce Johnston ever sing lead on "Wouldn't It Be Nice" live?

Yes, I'd love to know, too.

For some reason, I'm thinking he did, in the early 70s... but I could be in error here. I know he used to intro it by saying "the name of this song is..." (notably on the live version from Big Sur).

I have another "random" Beach Boys related question that really doesn't fit anywhere else. In the first few year of the 1970's Dennis could not play drums because of a bad injury to his hand. Yet he continued to tour with the group. My question is, what exactly did Dennis do onstage? I mean, besides act as "MC", to get the crowd excited and on their feet.

I believe Dennis sang and played auxiliary percussion and keyboard parts.

i forgot that he also sang lead on Help Me Rhonda on occasion.

From 1971-72 when Dennis wasn't playing drums he sang at various shows "Barbara", "Cuddle Up", "I've Got A Friend", "Forever". In 1973-74 he mostly sang Rhonda but did "Forever" at least once. I've heard a rumer he did a song called "Baby Baby".

I didn't know that Barbara was performed live.

Another live Dennis one....

in the It's Ok special (and so i can assume this was the touring set up for that year), you can see a second drummer on a second kit with the rest of the musicians behind the barriers.... how was he used? at first i thought he was just a quick replacement if Dennis fell over/whatever, but then you see him playing at the same time. Was Denny's kit not mic'd up, or at least turned down, in case he made mistakes and threw off the band?

That's not a second "kit"...that's a percussionist, Bobby Figueroa, the Beach Boys always used a percussionist on stage starting in '68 whether Dennis or Ricky or whoever was on drums... they had Mike Kowalski, Dennis Dragon, Bobby F or somebody on percussion...there was ALWAYS a percussionist up there. They used double kits briefly in '74/75 and again in '83. In the Its OK film Dennis' drums are not only mic'd up, they are kicking butt throughout.

Ok, my mistake. Cheers Jon, i knew about the percussionists but always swore that was a second kit.

Here's a question: did Dennis routinely sing BVs at the drumset? I've seen footage and photos of him in the 70s with a wrap-around mic at the kit, but did he sing BVs/harmonies regularly. Would he ever sing lead and drum? Always curious...

Yes, but not a lot. Usually when he sang lead he came out front. But... around '65 to '68 he occasionally did some lead singing back there while on the drums. There were occasions where he drummed and sang Do You Wanna Dance live...and where he drummed and sang lead on the middle section of Surfer Girl. BV's... he tended to not sing them much in concert while drumming, which changed their blend since Dennis almost always sang BV's in the studio. He'd come out front in the early days for Surfer Girl, Hushabye, as he did in later days on Surfer Girl, In My room etc.. the blend ballads. The most obvious background part he sang WHILE drumming is on Its OK. If you can find footage of the band doing that song in '76/77 he's always singing his part on the tag while drumming. But more often in concert, if Dennis was going to sing, he came out front.

There's photos from 1965 of Mike being a human mic stand for Dennis while he sings "Do You Wanna Dance" while drumming the while.  ;D

Just listened to the live cut of "Hushabye" from 64 and there's a noticeable break between the beginning of the song and when the drums come in...I'm thinking Dennis jumped down to do the intro and sing and then add the drums after it was over? Same thing for the outro. On a side note, man does Brian sound fantastic on the high part on that particular recording!

The 76 footage of "It's OK" from the titular special is one of the times I remembered him singing and drumming.

Here's one I have of him from I think 1975, looking great and singing at the kit
(http://i49.tinypic.com/21e11ls.jpg)

Does anyone have the pic AGD is talking about?? I'd love to have it in my collection.

The Badman book.

Dennis sang on Hushabye?  ??? I thought it was Mike.

They all sing on Hushabye...family blend.

Oh, I thought he meant the "solo" bit.

Here's a good look at Dennis singing the tag to It's OK while drumming. Go to the last two minutes of the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfDFee-GgU8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfDFee-GgU8)

1. When the Beach Boys hired Ed Carter (1968), Bruce still played bass on the majority of songs  - see 'Live in London" where songs that had a heavy keyboard component in the studio (WIBN, SJB, California Girls) were done with Bruce on bass and no keyboard accompaniment.  If Bruce was going to be the primary bass player why didn't they bring on a keyboardist instead of a bassist?   

2. In 1978 Brian moved to bass (notorious Australian tour).  Was Ed Carter in the band at that time and if so what did he do?

Brian started playing some bass on BB's tours in late '76 and throughout '77, by Australia he'd been playing bass for a year and a half already, however he started dancing  :o ...and playing bass on more songs on that tour. Ed Carter would play guitar (or occasionally percussion)on the songs Brian played bass on(when he was there).

Random question: Did Keith Badman release a new copy of his book that didn't contain the session musician's SSN?

Will he do a 2nd volume for say: 1978-1998?

Apparently so - not seen one myself but I have it from reliable sources that there are copies of his book out there with the SSNs whited out.


Highly unlikely... but never say no.

Actually having been at a couple of the Australian shows on THAT tour I recall that both Brian and Dennis would leave the stage and take "breaks" (as it was described in the media at the time) so in the case of Brian there must have been somebody else on stage covering the bass playing. I don't recall Brian doing any dancing on the tour, certainly not like the footage that is circulating of the Largo show.

Witness Brian dancing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1EPXBQV3yM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1EPXBQV3yM)

Brian danced like an amphetamine Yeti on that Aus. '78 tour.

Jeez... that I could have happily done without seeing. Ever.

That's nowhere near as bad as Brian on, I believe, American Bandstand in 1988 singing Night Time standing alone with a microphone doing a frightening swagger of a dance.

I've been wondering when this is from, too. I don't think that's a female voice - more likely Brian. Just the same, is this just another Wild Honey version? A Smile version as the bootleg implies? Does a more complete take exist?

The version of Can't Wait Too Long on that Odeon Smile CD has been circulating since 1983, a rough edit. It is not, I repeat, NOT a Smile recording. Tracking sessions were in November 1967 during Wild Honey sessions, sweetening and vocal overdubs in March-April 1968 during Friends. Then several overdubs in 1979 for possible inclusion on Keepin' The Summer Alive.

To further clarify, the edit wasn't contemporary, nor performed by anyone in the BB fold.

Were there vocal or instrumental overdubs made for CWTL in 1979? Are they making the rounds?

There was an instrumental overdub session February 11th, 1980 at Rumbo Recorders, featuring several "Crew" members. Not booted, as far as I know.

Yep, this is a shocker.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGfwkkm-GQI

The crime repeated here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNACeq9hV7w

And this is really no better...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_MeEmJLGVA&feature=related

Some people have said that Brian's first solo album would have been more successful if it had had more publicity but sometimes less is more...

Dear God, those were painful to watch.  Brian should never be without an instrument on stage, and most certainly should never try to dance.

Is there a list anywhere of Beach Boys songs grouped into time signatures? For whatever reason I have it in my head that the BBs under Brian's direction did not utilise 4/4 much but I'm not good at music theory so I can't simply count this off for myself (and anyway, it'd be a lot of counting...) so if such a list existed that'd be quite helpful! Thanks in advance. :)

The band in general didn't use 4/4. Dennis was quite fond of 7/8.

Not quite as painful as I expected, uncomfortable certainly but once Brian is behind a piano his is much more comfortable, that first performace just reinforces with me that Brian holds Mike Love in high status as a live frontman and mimics what Mike does, he just totally lacks the confidence and swagger of the Lovester so can't pull it off without looking so, so, so ... well, just so............ I recall when Brian first started touring back in 1999/2000 a lot of people were critical of his hand movements and yet when you go back and look at some of that early 60s footage many of those hand movements were the same as Mike Love used on stage.

Oh yeah, leather pants should be eternally banned!

I would've loved to have seen the leathered Brian grab the mic and start shouting, "Five to one, baby, one in five, no one here gets out alive...."

Anyway, there are a couple of videos around of Carl Wilson during his solo excursion, sans guitar, specifically singing "What You Do To Me". He was no Mick Jagger, either.... :police:

Um...WHAT?!?

I assume this is a joke...if you look up "quarter note drumming" in wikipedia, there's a picture of Dennis Wilson there...

This is also asserted in the song entry for "You're So Good To Me" -- that an unadulterated 4/4 beat is peculiar for the BBs -- on the surfermoon.com song archive (http://surfermoon.com/tracks/files/y/youre_so_good_to_me.shtml). However, what I'd like to know is if there exists a list anywhere that groups BB/solo songs by time signature for ease of reference. For some more context about why I'm curious, if anyone cares: I was discussing how rare it is for Beach Boys songs to be in 4/4 time (because I had read that it was the case, not because I am any good at deciphering which songs are in 4/4 vs. 12/8 or 3/4 and so on). I played a couple songs for her and she claimed a majority of them were in 4/4. Obviously I am in no position to doubt her greatly because I know no music theory but I am wary since from what I understand this is simply not the case. Did I just pick ones that were (e.g. an assortment from Pet Sounds including "God Only Knows," "Hang On To Your Ego," and "Wouldn't It Be Nice," as well as "Surfer Girl," "Friends," "All Dressed Up For School," "In The Back Of My Mind," "California Saga: Big Sur," etc.), or is she rusty in her theory and couldn't grasp the true signatures?

I'm sorry if my question is insufferably base, by the way! I know it is at least very insignificant!

There is no such archive for time signatures, as far as I know, but it does make for interesting discussion (at least to the music geeks on here).  Brian's songs in the early days used a lot of 6/8 ("Surfer Girl," "Warmth of the Sun," "Girls on the Beach," "In the Back of My Mind," to name a few), most likely a biproduct of growing up listening to doo-wop. 

That being said, Brian used a lot of "straight" 4/4 or 2/4 signatures too.  The thing is though, he used so many varying rhythms that the songs didn't all sound alike.  Something like "You're So Good To Me" isn't in a rare time signature for Brian, but it stands out because he had rarely used such a straight beat before that...he used that rhythm a few more times on the Summer Days album ("California Girls," "Let Him Run Wild"), and later on Pet Sounds ("God Only Knows").

Was all of BWPS released as instrumental versions?

Don't take time signature for rhythmic pattern. "You're so good..." is in 4/4 just like "Surfin USA", "Kokomo", "She Knows Me too Well", "ding Dang" and about 85 - 90% of the BBs catalogue.

BTW, "Surfer Girl" is a 12/8, not 6/8.

Thanks, Andrew. Wonder what the overdubs were. The original track isn't over produced, but not sparse either.

Really?  I'm not big on theory, so I don't quite understand the difference. 

Do outtakes from the "Summer In Paradise" sessions exist or did they only record the songs that are on the album?

If they do, I seriously don't wanna hear them. Considering what's on the album, can you imagine how bad the stuff they left off was ?  :o

I dunno, in '76-'77 the Boys were tending to leave their best material unreleased...

Fair point, but when you stack up SIP against Love You, and even 15 BO... well ! ;D

Only One Earth had been written by that point so may have been attempted. I think Bruce has said though that Terry Melcher hated SIP because they had to rush the production to get it out, so I doubt they had time to try much they didn't use.

Get it out for WHAT!?!!??  kokomo had been, what, four years ago?  its not like they had some fleeting moment to capitalize on (as one could at least argue with 15 big ones)!

Edit: Nevermind :(

The record deal that they'd been offered.

What 'deal they were offered' ?  SIP was released on Brother Entertainment. Like, their own custom label ?

But what about the songs that were recorded? Since it was all done on computers, are there any "session tapes"? Is there even a "master tape"? Or was it all saved on some kind of hard drive?

According to Bruce, they were offered a stack of cash to get it out quickly.

By whom ? The label, which is to say, themselves ?  The only other people who might make such an offer were the distributors, Navarre.

I wonder why there are so many session recordings from the '60s and '70s out there and just so few from the '80s and '90s?

Yep. you are probably right that Bruce has said it was Navarre who forced them to get it out at speed.

Probs because they all knew you can't polish a turd no matter how long you spend on it!

And how ironic that Navarre went under within a year of Summer In Paradise's release. The album technically was out of print as soon as it was released!

Has that song "Hawaiian Song" surfaced yet? I think it's from the Smiley sessions? Possibly an early version of Little Pad. Sorry, I know this has been discussed before but couldn't remember if anyone had heard it or not.

80s-90s sessions surfaced as in official or unofficial release? prolly because there's one major thing missing in those sessions: BRIAN, for the most part; let alone creativity

New subject, and fairly insignificant so I'll put it here.
Having read a post here and there about "mistaken" Beach Boys songs (i.e. Here Come De Honey Man, Ant Bee's "Worms" cover), I'm curious if there are other BB rarities that are not the Beach Boys at all.  Specifically, wasn't there a "Holidays" track from an early Smile vinyl boot that fits this category (or is that the "Honey Man" track?)

The first Smile cd I bought had "Laughing Gravy"s version of "Vegetables" on it. Took me about all of 8 seconds to realise it was a cover and not a session out take.

Good call - part of "Hawaiian Song" transmuted into "Little Pad".

That's "Honey Man".  ;D

The Holiday track you refer to is a Miles Davis' tune called Holiday that was on one of the first Smile boots as a practical joke, I used LLVS as a source.

BTW, another mistaken as a BB song: Balboa Nights, just an instrumental track I found recently, prolly discovered a long time ago.

Good call - on a whole bunch of compilations of Hite Morgan BB tracks, there are songs not by them.

Marketts -
Balboa Blue
Wipe Out
Surfer's Stomp

Frogmen -
Tioga
Beware Below
Underwater

Tornadoes -
Phantom Surfer
Bustin' Surfboards

Surfin' Six -
Little Deuce Coupe
409

Ok, here's another question: Exactly when did the lyrics to "Rhonda" change from "She was gonna be my wife...", to "She was gonna be my women", in the live performances of the song? It's a trivial thing, but I've always wondered who changed the lyric, when it was changed, and why it was changed. While I'm at it, who changed it back to "wife"?  ;D

I think it was mostly sung with the woman lyric in the 70's. They played it real funky from 1971-80 so I think that's when they adapted the lyrics slightly.

I figured that they changed it around 1970. They played it real "bluesy" for a while.

The hillbilly rock arrangement for "Rhonda" on In Concert is absolute balls. Can't stand it.

Me too. I think it sounds dull and utterly lifeless. Never heard an early-70s rendition with Dennis on lead vocals, however. Could've been a nice opportunity for him to have at least one lead vocal on In Concert.

I love that version.  :lol The version at Carnegie Hall from 1971(?) with Dennis singing should have been on the official In Concert album.

The Dennis version is AWESOME. I hope it gets an official release some day.

I've heard Brian pinched the main melody for You Still Believe In Me from a piece of classical music... True or false?

First I've heard of that - which classical piece ?

Andrew, have you or anyone heard this song - is it in the vaults?

Wish i knew - it didn't specify. Just wondering if anyone else had heard of such a thing, but i guess it's not true. The riff's relative simplicity (it's just going down the scale, in my simple musical terms) means it probably IS similar to something, somewhere, but that doesn't mean Brian nicked it of course.

EDIT- two more questions for you smarty types

1. What exactly is a 'tack piano'? I know what it sounds like, but i want to know what makes a tack piano.... 'tack'?  ???
2. Why on the GV boxset is the 'false barnyard' ending repeated twice?

I think I can answer #2. They're two different versions (I think one is just a single vocal, the other has the whole group.)

As to why, isn't that where the "Heroes and Villains, just see what you've done done" section what supposed to be on "part 2" of Brian's planned single? Maybe they figured since it already was on the set on the released 45, they didn't want to repeat it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tack_piano (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tack_piano)

The tape is indeed in the BRI storage facility.

Have you heard it though, or has anyone described it to you?

Well... someone would have to have heard it, to know that a part of it turned into "Little Pad", wouldn't they ?  :)

In your book Andrew you speculate that "Diamond Head" was based perhaps on unused Smile material. Could segments of "Hawaiian Song" have spawned both "Little Pad" and "Diamond Head" or are they from completely different works?

"Hawaiian Song" isn't from the Smile sessions, though.

Nice dodge  ;D

Um...is it just me, or did half of this thread disappear?

Why, under the 'Stephen Desper' thread do posters call him 'Mr Desper'? ??? Is this kissing-up or has Stephen demanded it? :-\

If posting on the Brit site would they call Bruce Johnston 'Mr Johnston?

I was at the bar in the hotel of Susan Lang's BB convention in 2003 with Stephen Desper.  He was a great guy.  He asked me what it was that 'brought me in' to the BB's in the first place.  I told him the three songs I've posted about elsewhere recently. 

He was/is (I guess) a down-to-earth guy and no "Mr. Desper" was required.  He was just a guy at a bar having a drink.  I was lucky enough to be next to him.

Thanks for the reply Mr Larson.  ;)

maybe respect?  ;)

Is All I Wanna Do considered partially a TM song?   

Maybe a love/TM inspired song?

Never thought it was until I saw it on the Endless Harmony doc. when discussing Mike's TM endorsement.

I had been reading an article on backmasking and wondered if there were ever any instances of backmasking in Beach Boys music? 

I've wondered this myself. In that doc they even show footage of Mike meditating/walking in the forest with "All I Wanna Do" playing. Maybe it's just because it was a very peaceful cut.

But I'm inclined to think it is slightly TM inspired. Especially the "oooh when I sit and close my eyes/a gentle thought comes in my mind/my love is burning brightly/the (?) moon and stars shine nightly".

I've also been kind of confused as to what "kind" of love song this is. Romantic, platonic? Some of it sounds like something a parent could say to a child ("help you in whatever you do") and some of it sounds romantic (Carl's wonderful "lonely in the night I feel"). Either way it's sorely underappreciated. Could've been a classic love song everyone knows in my opinion. Classic Brian and Mike song--it's like the psychedelic version of "Please Let Me Wonder," in sound and gentle sentiment.

Does this kid have a future in comedy or just seen the EH doco?

...Once I caught Timmy’s reflection in the van’s rear-view mirror. There he was, buckled into his booster seat, holding his nose as he sang along with “409.” When I asked him why he was holding his nose, he explained that it was so he sounded more like the Beach Boys guy.... ;D


http://www.patriotledger.com/lifestyle/x1664756389/JUST-A-MINUTE-Help-me-get-em-outa-my-head

I completely agree

OK, here's a question. Did Brian or Van Dyke Parks actually do "research" when writing the lyrics for SMiLE songs? You know, the whole Americana and history of the time period, etc. Here's a question I haven't seen asked anywhere: Did the story told in the song Heroes and Villains actually happen? You know, the lyrics about the shoot out. "She was right in the rain(reign?) of the bullets that eventually brought her down".  

I think rain is correct, with the evidence of the Smile illustrations showing the 'rain of bullets'

Anyone feel the Summer Days album is missing a ballad? I know the how ordeal over Capitol getting made about the 2nd side to Today! but really, I feel like Sandy (she needs me) was the only potential slow type song....Let Him Run Wild is a great Bacharach tribute, complaining about another lover, I must say  ;D

What was the plan to release the song: Brian's Back? Was it going to be on 15 Big Ones? I honestly don't think it makes sense to put it on any other album....as Mike wants it to be on Unleash the Love/Mike Love Not War

"Brian's Back" was first attempted during the Florida L. A. sessions (by the band), then again during the First Love sessions later in 1978.

really? so just the phrase Brian's Back was the only campaign thing goin on in 1976, no song or anything? I have been mistaken for so long.    ::)

If you play GIOMH backwards, you hear Brian softly say "I'm really fuckin' sorry" over and over...

Yet ANOTHER BB myth busted.

 :laugh:

Was anyone else mistaken for this as well?

Yeah...I was for YEARS.

I have another random question that has always bugged me. What's up with the heavy echo effects on the version of Good Vibrations from their Ed Sullivan show appearence? Is there any recording of the song from that show without those effects? It has always bugged the hell out of me.  :lol

I wanna say a rehearsal of that is on the Endless Harmony soundtrack, but I could be way off.


and BTW, I have a separate, what's with the BB tune: Over the Waves/Carnival? 
What were their intentions on this recording?

I have a couple questions for a piece I am writing:

Where did Brian typically do mastering of albums?

I am looking for any info I can find on "Brother Julius", who supposedly was the janitor at Western Studios, and lived in a nearby bungalow.  Thus far I've had no success, any suggestions?

Gold Star, not Western - Spector named a B side after him. This is the best I could find at 5.55am (Hal Blaine):

"I’ve always maintained that one guy doesn’t make a record. Phil Spector alone never made a great record. He made great records with all these people. Brother Julius, the little black man who used to clean up, he was part of that recording scene. Brother Julius must have been sixty-five or seventy years old, he’d sweep up the studio at Gold Star. Brother J. We’d give him money all the time. He used to come in and make suggestions like, “Hey, Mr. Spector, you sure is doing it!” “Hey, Hal, git those drums bigger!”

And of course, Brian also got him to do the fire in a bucket for the "Fire" session.

As for mastering the albums, 1962-69, at Capitol. Thereafter, I know Steve Desper favored Artisan Sounds.

OK, what's up with this story from Gary Usher on the making of "In My Room"? Brian, who I'm guessing was 19-20 at the time and had already released a couple of top 10 records, still lived at his dad's AND had a midnight curfew? What's going on with that?

Thanks AGD.  Where did you find the quote about Brother J. and Spector?  Very interesting. 

Google is a wonderful invention.  ;D

Here - http://www.reasontorock.com/artists/phil_spector.html (http://www.reasontorock.com/artists/phil_spector.html).

Also:

(http://rauschj.tripod.com/brojulius.jpg)

He also apparently sold Jack Nitzsche's car after a session lasted two days !

I got it now that I know it was Goldstar, had thought it was Western, which didn't turn up anything with that search.   Thanks again, it's pretty cool cos I even found a picture of Brother Julius!  :)

What's up with Brian's management taking down all of his solo songs that are posted on YouTube except for BWPS? Any BW88, Imagination, What I Really Want For Christmas, or Gettin' In Over My Head songs are immediately removed for copyright violations, but you can always find BWPS on there. You can find some TLOS songs, too. Is BW's management trying to make us forget about most of his solo career? Or is it bitterness over those albums not selling enough? What is it?

1) When a recording session was finished for the day (but more recording was to be done later), what would happen with the tapes?  Would they stay at the recording studio, go to Capitol and taken out again at the time of the next session, or would the artist hang on to them (e.g. take them home)?

2) was there ever any record keeping done for acetates that were made (i.e. who made acetates of what, and where, when and for whom)?

3)  what was the bands (mostly Al and Mike?) problem exactly with Hang On To Your Ego?  The only thing changed was the chorus [edit: and one verse line], why?  was it just they didn't like the sentiment?  Was it too negative?   What exactly does the chorus mean?  Listening to this song again it seemed to me that it could have been a song about Brian's relationship with the other Beach Boys (Murray too), and that maybe they knew this and didn't like it, but then why not change all the words?  Whose ego is it anyway?  Is Brian talking to someone else (whether it's the Beach Boys or somebody other) or to himself when he's saying "hang on to your ego"?

I have a lot more questions, but I'll leave at this for now.  :-D

Huh? Hang On To Your Ego has completely different lyrics than I Know There's An Answer.

Not all that different in the verses.  The "how can i come on when I know I'm guilty" was changed to "How can I come on and tell them the way that live could be better" but the rest is the same (verse wise).

I thought it was about the ego-death often reported during intense psychedelic experiences...they didn't like the drug reference. I think.

Listening to it again, it seems as though the words weren't so different between the two as I had thought. My apologies.

Oddly enough, "they trip through their days" was kept in both versions.

1 - Stay in the studio. unless they were going to be used a different studio next session (i.e. Columbia for vocals)

2 - Apparently not.

It may sound naive but I did not interpret the "trip through the day" thing as any more than "stumbling/staggering through" in the sense of "maladroit" (falling over ones' feet) in the sense of a lack of "confidence" in the journey of "growth to adulthood"  rather than drug-induced and many questioned whethere there was "double entendre" that was intentional.  And, many of the record companies insisted on lyric changes for "public perception" or for direct censorship for radio airplay legalities to conform with the then existing "decency codes." 

 :-D   

What are the background vocals in the Long Promised Road chorus? All I can get is:
Hit hit hard hard
???
knock knock down down
???
Throw throw off all the shackles that are binding me down down down down

I heard "all the road blocks" and "yeah yeah yeah".

Hit hit hard hard at the battles and I...

Knock knock down down all the roadblocks...

Throw throw off all the shackles that are binding me down down down down

Thanks Mr. Doe.  :)

I remember reading somewhere, although I cannot for the life of me remember where, that Dennis said in an interview in the mid-70's that they had been 'working on wordless vocals that sound like the Vienna Boys Choir' or something similar. My question is this: Were there ever any attempts to record any of these wordless vocals and who was behind the idea seeing as though it more than likely wouldn't have been Brian.

That was during the build-up to 15 Big Ones, if not slightly before, late 1975 or so.

Ah, so I guess nothing came of this due to the seeming lack of interest from the group regarding doing anything good. I guess the closest we have to what Denny describes is Our Prayer and now I think about it I dont see how the Boys mid 70's vocals would have been capable of beatiful a capella moments ala Prayer

It's actually from an article in Sounds, August 13, 1977. "I Wanna Be Where the Boys Are" by Vivien Goldman. Dennis calls "15 Big Ones" bullmerda basically and says they've been working on wordless stuff. So I always thought that must've been in sessions leading up to "Love You".

From Crawdaddy, not exactly sure when but definitely pre-15 BO:

"It's very possible one will be an all-oldies album. We've wanted to do that for a long time and Brian's into it. The other two could take the form of a double album of all new material that stretches from hard rock & roll to these wordless vocals that we've been doing that sound like the Vienna Boys Choir"

Said 'wordless vocal' could be the "mow-mama-yama" chant, of course.

Somehow I've mixed articles up...however, even though the quote is very familiar to me I don't recall having ever read that Crawdaddy article. Strange.

Quoted in Peter Ames Carlin's excellent biog of Brian.

So no one knows?  ???

HaHa! That line just cracked me up!!!

june 1976 part 1 of tim white's 2 part crawdaddy story. quote on page 37.

I have two questions that don't really seem to deserve their own topic:

1. What, exactly, was Dennis's tattoo of? When did he get it? Why did he get it?

2. When The Beach Boys did "Lady Lynda" in 1993 as "Little Lady", they took out all references to "lynda", right? I've never heard it before, but I've read that it was played after Al's divorce.

So when Brian was preparing for the GIOMH album, did he have to sit through the Sweet Instanity/Paley tapes? Did he say "gee's, what was I thinking" when he heard it?

I think that some of the Paley tapes are Brian's best work.

Some of the Paley tapes are on GOIMH!

Brian didn't choose the songs for that album: he's stated that more than once in interviews.

It is so cool to be able to hear from Stebbins and Roach! Thanks for the time and effort you guys! Andrew Doe is a well of great info. Thanks Andrew.

I happen to think that GIOMH is Brian's best album.

You and maybe one other, then.  ;D

I actually like a lot of it. At least it sounds like a Brian Wilson production, which is more than can be said for Imagination or even 88. I don't know what else everyone hears that is so awful. Yes some of the vocals are a bit off, but it's Brian we're talking about...

This is the thing about GIOMH. There were folks who liked it when it came out. And there were folks who didn't like it. And the folks who didn't like it, they didn't like it with a passion that put the first group of folks to shame. And that continues to be the case. I doubt many people who like it feel like it's the second coming of Smile, or even Love You. But I find it, like you, clearly a BW production, even if a somewhat ramshackle one. But opinion is so divided that it's hard to discuss the album in much more depth than "I like it," "I hate it," "You're wrong," "No, you're wrong."

And for the folks disposed to like it, Brian has released several other, slicker (and arguably better) things since. So it's more pleasant -- and interesting -- to talk about BWPS or the Christmas album or the Bennett demos or TLOS.

1 - Brian didn't choose the songs.
2 - too many BW bvs.
3 - Brian doesn't sound like he's enjoying himself.
4 - far too many of the vocals (lead & bv) are rushed, and frankly some suck.
5 - the mix is, by and large, appalling*: as a friend of mine who knows his music and knows his Brian said, 'everything louder than everything else'.
6 - these days, no-one in Brian's organisation talks about it. And I mean no-one.

[* - I know, the credits say Mark mixed it and so does he. I happen not to believe the totality of that, and nor does someone else who was at hand. Mark operated the board, but my belief is he was taking orders.]

Wow, I didn't know that

As I said, it's difficult to talk about GIOMH because opinion is so divided.  Most of AGD's points (2, 3, 4 and 5) boil down to personal impressions.

Which is fine. And I agree with some of them. But not all.

Brian has been "forced" to record for much of the last 40 years. People have disavowed albums he's produced (15BO) left and right. A sequence of folks have pulled his strings. But we still discuss and enjoy many albums produced in such circumstances.

I profess my enjoyment of GIOMH because it was a time in which it was the first BW production to come out when I had became a 'real' fan....at the time I started obsessing over the BB/BW, Live at the Roxy had just came out, so GIOMH was just the first thing I could really enjoy at the time it came out...and I knew most were songs of Paley/Sweet Insanity era, but I enjoyed it anyway

7. Darian's not on it.

AGD's right about no-one mentioning it, on the NPR interview from 2008 Bennett mentioned it just in passing and there was a complete silence following it.

I used to be in the middle regarding GIOMH, but now I'm fairly negative. It's simply because I've listened to the Paley sessions so much and prefer those versions many, many, many times over to the versions that were released. Same goes for DLHKSAA, which, despite the shoddy SI production, has a gorgeous lead from Brian (on the second version). Compare that to the travesty we were given on the GIOMH album and there you go.

But really, it's never that same, as is usually the case with Brian. GIOMH has one of Brian's very worst songs on his own, "The Waltz," and one of his best solo songs/recordings, "Desert Drive."

I like GIOMH simply for the fact that It actually sounds like a Brian Wilson recording. There are little musical touches off and on that remind me of Pet Sounds. Not that GIOMH is anywhere near Pet Sounds, mind you. But I listen to songs like You've Touched Me and GIOMH, and I can hear little brief shades and hints of PS.

Yeah, I know a lot of people expected a lot here, especially with VDP's credit....honestly, I've gotta give props to the original: Lets Get Together; the  accordion is outta sight and my fav vocal part of Sweet Insanity: "When you smile at me."  Brian's voice sounds great!

Take a bow, Weird Al !  ;D

I thought that's who it was   :-D

That's the other difficult part of GIOMH -- fans were familiar with previous versions of 11 (possibly 12) of the 13 songs. And had been familiar for years. It can be very hard to listen to the record without hearing the earlier versions in your head and comparing.

This is okay in some cases -- most of the SI backing tracks were begging to be recut -- but to lose the Paley sessions lead to the title track and Carl's bridge in Soul Searchin' hurts.

Exactly what makes it a worthwhile production for me. Plus, I, for some insane reason, don't think his vocals are that awful. "You've Touched Me" which people have often used as an example, is probably my favorite on the album--it's a simple Brian Wilson love song, that is, really, very endearing. Too me he doesn't sound uninterested as much as comfortable just singing over his music. No frills or pretension, he's just making BW music. Plus, that tag! BW always has the best tags and this one's up there with Melt Away and all the others he's done--amazing.

GIOMH isn't that bad really... Used to like it a lot when it came out in 2004, though I have to say I put it away for several years after that. To me, it sounds kind of half-assed but it still has its moments, "You've Touched Me" being a particular favorite of mine as well, as stylistically it used to remind me of the Friends album. It's nowhere near as brilliant as that, but still a nice enough song if you ask me. (REALLY dislike "Fairy Tale", however, as that song to me contains the downright most cringe-inducing BB-related lyric ever.) I'd give it 2 1/2 stars...

That tag to You've Touched Me just might be the best beach boys related moment since the tage to Funky Pretty.  ;D

Anyone feel the need for another slow ballad of beauty on the Love You album? I feel as though the Night is So Young is the only slow number and this album cries for another ballad like song, I think My Diane would fit perfectly (maybe add some synth to fit in)  ;D

See, I never liked Carl's original bridge on Soul Searchin'. Although I will say that going from Carl's voice to Brian's 2003 voice is quite jarring. And they cut out the backing vocals! The backing vocals on the original 1995(?) version were GREAT. They start on the second verse, I believe. But they were edited out of the GIOMH version.

I strongly suspect because said bvs were by Mike, Alan & Adam.

AGD -- I believe you mean Matt rather than Adam, no?

That's what I recall from reports ...

Damn Jardines - they all look the same to me.  ;D

Is Matt Jardine doubling Brian's lead on "You're Still a Mystery"?

Matthew has a hell of a voice btw.

New question that I wanted to ask: Why the hell wasn't Carry Me Home on Holland and why has it still not had an official release? I didn't download Carry Me Home last week and I'm completely knocked out by it, Dennis' voice is so heartfelt its wonderful to behold and the backing vocals are just heavenly, Blondies parts are great too, I can't praise this song enough.

I think the concensus was (Dennis included) that it was too downbeat. Shame. Powerful number.

That's a damn shame. I find CMH way more uplifting than "The Beaks of Eagles" or "The Eeks of Beagles" or whatever it's called.  ;D

next question:

I was looking at a session log sheet for How she Boogalooed it in one of the great BB books (Keith Badman I believe) and the original title added 'Good Lord' before 'How she....'   

any story behind that?

another question concerning when the guys wanted to change their name simply to Beach:

When was this?

I have a feeling it would have just lasted for one album or one tour (assuming it would have been a failure of an idea)...what album would fit the name Beach with its title?

Pg. 147, chapter 9 in Carlin's book says it was early 1969. Desper even says that Brian had something written up and signed by himself, but the other guys obviously didn't go for it. Imagine, Sunflower would be the first (and possibly only) album by The Beach. If a band were to have only one album it couldn't get much better than that.

In Badman's book he states that Let's Go Away For Awhile had lyrics (which is common knowledge to us fans), but then he goes on to say that the real reason the vocals for this weren't recorded (negating Brian's claim that he just liked the track as it was sans vocals/lyrics) was because Capitol got restless for product and "confiscated" the tapes of Pet Sounds and put it out (essentially) behind Brian's back.   
If this were true, then wouldn't that mean that Brian isn't the one who mastered the album?  Yet there's a quote from Fred Vail about being with Brian (and hearing the album for the first time) while Brian mastered Pet Sounds.
Was it more a case of Capitol pressuring Brian and Brian giving in and completing the album before he was as done with it as he might have wanted to be?   Or did capitol actually "confiscate" the tapes as Badman claims?

Might be 'common knowledge' for you, but for fans here who know their stuff, it's a myth: "LGAFAW" never had lyrics written, and I can state this based on an impeccable source. Tony Asher told me, Stomp convention in the late 90s.

Badman's book states an awful lot of things which could politely be described as contentious.  ;D

We should make a thread about the Badman book and its false facts and present other sources to prove them wrong

well that's why I was asking...because I wouldn't claim to know everything there is to know (nor even most of it), but that's what questions are for aren't they, to learn.    Sorry for stating something I believed to be true because I had heard it said and read it countless times - though obviously that doesn't necessarily make something true of course.
Anyway, I had a few other questions related to the Badman book, but never mind.   It would seem that  book is not only full of typos, but misinformation as well.

Not entirely - the stuff he took from my website and other people's websites & MB posts (without permission or crediting us) is pretty accurate.  ;D

Probably where it falls down most badly is the live shows. Ian Rusten has been researching those with a dedication that borders on obsession (in a good way), and the results are to be found here:

http://www.esquarterly.com/bellagio/gigs.html (http://www.esquarterly.com/bellagio/gigs.html)

Any other questions you have re: Badman, ask away.

Has Mr. Badman ever publicly commented on his "misinformation", and relying on other sources in his book? Or about the Social Security numbers and other information like that?

Not really... when I emailed him (and the publishers) to point out a few concerns of mine, he told me that his researchers neglected to provide their sources when they delivered their info to him, and also that he was unaware of the significance of American Social Security numbers. Otherwise, I've seen no 'public' apology.

... Sean McReavy put some lyrics to this. Sorry if someone has already made this point.

My question is: Did Murry provide any backing vocals for 'Help Me Rhonda' - the album version?

There's a deep voice in there which is gravelly and - well, middle-aged. There's a lot going on the background of that chorus - kind of occult noises.

idk about HMR, but he did do backing vocals for Be here in the Morning, as Mike was absent

Badman did a similar kind of book on the Small Faces.  I had been keen to read it but now am a bit wary.  Has anyone read this?  Is it as faulty as his BB's book?

In the Summer Dreams movies, "Dennis" comes home to find his house trashed, with the words "'No lLove No Respect" written on the walls. Did this really happen? Or is it just a jumbled up version of the Superbowl 1981 incident, possibly with a little Charles Manson thrown in?

Nope. 100% accurate. Was reported in, I think, People.

Anyone have any exact measurements of Brian's height at any given time period?

Brian's 6-2, 6-3.

Do you recall what year it happened?

It was when he was with Shawn, I think, so 1982-83.

Thanks for the info. Is it known who the guilty parties were? Imean, other than the "usual suspects".

It was Shawn (or whoever he was with - a nagging little voice in the back of my mind (d'ya see what I did there ?) keeps saying "Karen").

Wonder if it was Gaines who reported it. He seemed to appreciate the Dennis aspect of the BB story quite a bit in H&V.

Ok, here's another Dennis related Beach Boys question. It has been reported that the last recording of The Beach Boys to feature Dennis was the song Endless Harmony.It has also been stated that Dennis played "percussion" on the song. What, exactly, does the word "percussion" refer to? What was the last Beach Boys recording that Dennis played full "drums" on? Was it the Johnny B Goode KTSA outtake?

Indeed, it was "JBG". As for 'percussion', I take that to mean stuff like a bell tree, maracas, tambourine - basically anything you hit that isn't a drum/drum kit.

Has that version of JBG ever been "booted"? Strange that one of the last songs recorded with Dennis hasn't seen some sort of release.

Not to my knowledge.

Session tapes reveal Dennis and Mike doing a low parallel harmony ("rhon-rhon, rhon-rhon") which sounds like what you're talking about.

Great question...it's actually also the last session to feature the Beach Boys recording as a full functioning band together.  Found out recently on the board that all 5 instrumental BBs are on this track.  For less than a minute, granted, but it's one of the best parts of KTSA.

Went back and listened for the "percussion" -- the only thing I hear is a (very effective) stroke across a set of chimes at 2:53.  So there's Dennis' contribution to KTSA. 

I can't hear it, because it would be covered up by the hi-hat, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was an eight-note shaker pulse throughout the rest of the track.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PZyEsSQoEk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PZyEsSQoEk)
The melody that is played by the guitar at the beginning, does it appear in another song?

Quick question for anyone in the know... Who owns the rights for the "Still Cruisin'" album and what is the likelyhood of it getting a proper remaster/reissue? I was listening to it on my mp3 yesterday then skipped to some Wild Honey tracks and was stunned by how flat and tinny it sounded by comparison to songs recorded 20 years before. Gotta be worth remastering it just for "Somewhere near Japan" alone. Maybe pile on Rock and Roll to the Rescue, Chasin' the Sky, East meets West etc as bonus tracks (I know I'm getting carried away here).

Capitol, I presume.

"Still Cruisin'" is iffy since two of the tracks, "Kokomo" and "Wipeout", are licensed from outside companies ("Kokomo" is owned by Disney and "Wipeout" is controlled by Polygram which is now Universal Music).

Me thinks that if it were to be remastered (and that's a pretty big IF), they would remove Landy's co-writing and production credits.

How is Dennis's playing on Johnny B Goode? I've always thought that Dennis wasn't much of a great live drummer in the last few years of his life. He basically played the same simple cymbal/drum pattern for almost every song. So it would be interesting to hear his playing in the studio from this period.

This stems from the fact that they were intially used on soundtracks I presume? Shame, whilst no masterpiece I would appreciate a 'modern audio equipment standards' version for my collection.

What is that weird noise in the first verse of IJWMFTT? Sounds like tape loops similar to Tomorrow Never Knows but I'm not sure.

The first thing that pops into my head is the theremin/tannerin, but that's obvious.

Does anyone have MIDI or sheet music or whatever of the Don't Talk harmony bit? You know, this thing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scIncjf0y0E&feature=related

On the Goodbye Surfing, Hello God bootleg box set put out by Vigotone, there is a track called "Harmony Friends" that is, they allege, an harmony that Brian and co. left unused. I just listened to an a cappella mix of "Break Away" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6aT2K38t2w) and the ending of the song struck me. Does anyone else think the ending of "Break Away" incorporates that bit of harmony? I realise the harmony itself is typical enough and so it could be mere coincidence, but there was obviously something about it that made me think it could be the same one. Enough to post about it, at any rate!

It is indeed the tag from Break Away.

When it comes to how the blend was made up, is this accurate? From highest to lowest:
-Brian
-Bruce
-Al
-Carl
-Dennis
-Mike

You mean, in general?  I don't know how it went down when all six of them were singing.  In the early days Dennis was, surprisingly, higher than Carl.

Sometimes Carl would sing a higher part than Al (like on "Surfer Girl" for instance).  Like Adam said, Dennis was sometimes higher than Carl (like "In My Room", although it got switched later on onstage).  I think Bruce was oftentimes higher than Brian in the background mix (I'm thinking of things like "Sloop John B.", "Good Vibrations", and "Heroes and Villains", where Brian sang some very high lines for sure, but when there's a mass of voices together, maybe Bruce is higher).

Ah, gotta love inaccurate boots. Thanks!

Andrew - I found that equally shocking (the Social Security Numbers publication) and, think should have been "redacted out" especially in light of the fact that there is a "half-hearted" attempt in doing same with the "Employer's Address (which is "visible" on p. 127 of Badman) and street address, as well as the label which was crossed out.  On other pages such as on p. 109 and 118, there is no "redaction" or "blacking out" of any information.

Those numbers are highly "private" but used to be employed at an ID number on the Drivers Licences in many states in the US, although my home state has removed it and assigns another non Social Security number as your Drivers License ID number, as Identity theft has become such a problem.   

It is particularly shocking, given the copyright of my book, which is 2004 and during a time when not only Identity Theft became an issue but also a news item, as "for a price"  people were able to ascertain the Social Security numbers of US Presidents and high profile individuals.   

One would think that if a subsequent "printing" should occur, not only should the numbers be "redacted" completely, an apology should issue from the author for their inclusion in the first place, since less important (in my opinion) information was "redacted" or "blacked out" in what is offered as an historic document.   

And in the July, 1969 section, I think there are concert date "errors."       

The whole book is bursting with concert date errors - if you go to the gigs & sessions section of my website, you'll notice that there are a lot of dates between 1961 and 1976 inclusive that are marked with an asterisk. They were either not included in Badman's book, or contained some error. If a concert is in Badman but not in 10452, then that gig never took place (and not because it was cancelled !). Ian Rusten did all the research for that, and I am forever indebted to him.

Question, I remember a while ago, on another board, might have been the blueboard, where someone said there was a movie that had the whole BW 88 album playing through out or in a scene...anyone recall what this is or am I dreaming?

Back when Carl was trying to get Smile out in some form in the early 70s (around CATP/Holland era), how much work did he do? like what kind of research: mix anything? make a track list? or overdub anything?

Seems all he & Desper did circa 1972 was to gather all the available tapes together, listen to them, make a list of tracks/songs, make saftey copies and put them all back into storage. Had thay not made safties, a lot of the Smile music that we have today might be lost.

not totally sure of the name but i seem to remember the movie's title as lover boy...something like that. some kid gets a job as a pizza delivery guy and screws all these guys wife's. the husbands then try to track him down. i think about 3 or so songs from bw 88 were played...if this is the same movie you are asking about.

You are, of course, correct! Starring Patrick Dempsey; info to be found here: http://www.fast-rewind.com/loverboy.htm

Dang, GO CARL! That should be on a Top 5 for Carl Wilson Appreciation Thread

I have always wondered about the relationship between Dennis and Bruce. Everybody knows that Dennis and Mike didn't get along at all in the last few years. As Bruce seems to have sided with Mike since around the early 1980's, did Dennis and Bruce not get along? I might be wrong, but I seem to remember Bruce getting some kind of credit on Dennnis's POB album.

Yep he is credited with backing vocals but I'm pretty sure Bruce isn't really a fan of the album from what I recall.

The falsetto on "End Of The Show" is Bruce. He also does the bvs to "Wild Situation" with Carl.

My understanding of what Desper and Carl did in 72:  collect tapes and either copy them or transfer them to 8 track (the instrumental sessions were originally on 4 track, with most vocal sessions done on 8 track at Columbia but not all).  The idea was to collect the material with safety copies and allow track room for overdubs for the planned release of Smile with Holland.  Much of the Smile boot material was derived from these 8 track compilations.  Desper has suggested that some minor work, i.e. overdubs, were attempted on some of the tapes but has never mentioned titles or what kind of overdubs were done, perhaps because he doesn't remember.  Of course we know overdubs were done on Prayer and Cabinessence (vocal overdubs) for 20/20 - interestingly, the multitrack tape for the Cabinessence version has disappeared, only the two track mixdown is in the Beach Boys tape vault.  I've wondered if the backing vocal for the Worms verse (the one released on the box set with the tape wobble) was a 1972 overdub, as it hasn't appeared elsewhere on the 8 track tapes that came out on Sea of Tunes.  Worms was on Carl's track list for the 72 Smile.  Of course if they bothered to do backing vocals on that, why not just record the lead vocal and then the track would be finished?  Unless they didn't have the lyrics and Brian (and Van Dyke) wasn't willing to cooperate.  Ultimately Brian's resistance to the project convinced Carl to abandon it.

I was recently listening to a recording of a concert (one of the first TLOS shows, I think)...anyways, it was one of the shows where When I Grow Up to Be a Man is performed (and then She Knows Me Too Well, then I'd Love just Once to See You); and the band sings one last part of When I grow Up accapella, and I can't figure out what they sing/say, it sounds like: "it's going to suck," or something like that, anyone wanna take a stab at this one?

Its Kinda Sad

AH HA! Thank you!

Just saw the vocal credits thread - is that really Mike on "I Love to Say Da Da"? I'd always thought it was Brian.

I've always thought it was Mike though I could see how someone would think it would Brian doing a rare pre-1972 deep vocal.

I don't hear any bit of Mike's bass voice in there.

On the Smile material, Brian's all over the place as far as tone goes - the "Good Vibrations" scratch take, "He Gives Speeches", and even the two different vocals we have for "Heroes and Villains" almost sound like four different vocalists. I really think it's him on "Da Da", but if not him, then I really don't think it's Mike.

This might be worthy of its own thread -- and if so, I will make one -- but for now I will place the question here:

Can someone more precisely lay out the lineage between the great American songwriters (Gershwin, Foster, Berlin, etc.) and Brian Wilson? I have heard often enough that he is considered -- or was, at least, during the 1966-67 Smile era -- to be a contemporary incarnate of this tradition. Is this because he fashioned an America in the Beach Boys' songs that was worthy of people like Berlin and Foster (although here I primarily think of Smile songs perhaps "Surfin' USA" and "Hawaii" might vaguely qualify), or merely that his compositional style was what Gershwin tended to do (with "Rhapsody in Blue" as the obvious example), or was it both? Surely there is reason people often group Brian in with Berlin and Gershwin and Porter and co., and although I have some sense of why, I'm curious what the more informed folks here think.

I don't know if he was really compared to such songwriters at the time.

Starting in the 70s, there was certainly a strain of criticism that talked about BW/BB music as archetypically American (surfing, cars, etc.) and how that was part of an American popular songwriting tradition that went back to people like Stephen Foster. That was primarily about subject matter, although the way the music made these subjects soar was certainly part of the equation.

Compositionally, I'm not sure if people really drew the connection until much more recently. And frankly, Brian's stuff is not always as sophisticated as the greatest songs by Porter, Berlin and Gershwin, etc. Brian worked in another tradition -- doo-wop and R&B flavored in the beginning -- and his songs came from that, although they were augmented with "adult" touches that he picked up from Four Freshman-style records.

That being said, like Lennon and McCartney, he took a very simple, three-chord popular form and made it something quite different. And he incorporates arrangement, production and performance in his tunes in a way that the Gershwin, etc. could not have imagined.

:-[ I should have figured such comparisons were not contemporaneous with his work in the 1960s.

That makes sense though. I suppose what I was wondering is whether he made a conscious effort to bring himself into that "great American songbook" tradition or if such comparisons were bestowed upon him after he just sort of did his thing. He certainly seemed to cover enough of such material, which is what made me curious initially. Thanks for the corrective! (I suppose if I knew music theory, Inside the Music of Brian Wilson by Phillip Lambert would be instructive here.)

From the thread about songs where all the vocals are Brian:


I also saw the same misspelling in (I think) the box set booklet.

Who working that closely with the Beach Boys thought his name was spelled "Bryan"? If his name actually was "Bryan" I could see misspelling it "Brian" because it's much more common with an "I" than a "Y" but not the other way.

Well, no matter how you spell it, Bryan is a great singer. Sometimes I have trouble telling his voice from Karl's.  :lol

Or Allan's.  :lol

Or telling his bass voice apart from Mikal's.

Who does the grunts in 'Bicycle Rider'? Mike?

Gets even more complicated when you get Brunettie into the mix.  :lol

Is it Brian on the piano on Don't Go Near the Water?

I always thought Mike as well.

No, no NO !!! It's Brian !  Don't you understand ? Everything you think is Mike, is actually Brian - yes, even the lead on "Fun, Fun, Fun". Brian is a genius, he can imitate everyone's voice perfectly. Always remember this. It was even Brian pumping gas.

YOU ARE TEARING ME APART AGD!  ;D

BUT I ALWAYS THOUGHT "BAKER MAN" HAD THAT MIKE SOUND, YOU KNOW?

Sorry if this has already been posted, but does anyone know the bg lyrics to "Slip on Through"?

I know it's something like:

Baby, baby, believe that I...I love you ahh ahhh

Am I overlistening, I dunno... :P

No such thing as over listening to The Beach Boys my friend! ;D

Hay, I'm not trying to give Brian too much credit in stating he sang "I Love to Say Da Da". I just think there's no way that's Michael.

And you ,sir, are correct

So, uh, what does Brian do for hobbies (excluding music, which is also his profession)? He must have stuff he does besides that which he enjoys thoroughly and can spend a day engaged in. Adopt kids, I guess?

According to the man himself, he enjoys sex twice a day, every day.

Ah, crap, I remember reading that back in the day - nearly choked on my Coke, typical Brian.  ;D

there's an early take of "Back Home" on my copy of 'Landylocked'

sounds like a mid-60s production and vocal from Brian. when exactly was it recorded???
also, is there a better version of this take? mine sounds pretty bad.

According to this site - http://www.esquarterly.com/bellagio/gigs63.html (http://www.esquarterly.com/bellagio/gigs63.html) - June 14th 1963, at Gold Star: at the same session the track for "Run Around Lover" was recorded (and labelled as "Black Wednesday"). That's as good as it gets, sadly - the original master tape is heat damaged.

thanks for the reply...
somehow knowing it's heat damage to the tape and not digital glitches makes it more listenable... not sure why.

Brian and Mike really had a similar vocal sound back in the day. There's parts here that sound just like Mike to me.

and why'd Bri get rid of the bridge when they recast this tune for '15 Big Ones'?
Well I'll miss bein' here with ya'all, but I won't regret it
I'll be workin' with Paw til we hear that "Come and get it!"

love it!

For what it's worth, the 1963 Back Home also goes around from an acetate dub, which is considerably clearer than the tape source with only a few clicks and pops.

I actually dreamed last night that BriMel had adopted another child.

I don't think that was a dream....

I dreamed a week ago a light fell on Al Jardine while he was performing with Brian and Brian was curled up around his immobile carcass crying

I win.  :P

How did the loins of someone as nasty as Murry Wilson produce three of the most beautiful voices in history?

I had a dream a couple days ago that Al finally finished and released his album A Postcard From Chinesedemocracy. It was fucking crazy, to say the least.

Never gonna happen...

What are the words being sung right before "Thank you for the sweet inspiration/that you for the love that I found" in Wild Situation? It sounds to me like either "My Lord", "Oh no", or "Oh Lord". Or possible "My no/know", but this makes no sense at all. I know it's a weird question, but it's been bugging the hell out of me.  ;D

TWICE a day, EVERY day????  With who???

It'll have Al duetting with Kim Jong-Il on a remake of Barbara Ann, entitled Bomb Shanghai. These are the lyrics.

Bomb, bomb, bomb...bomb, bomb Shanghai!
Bomb, bomb, bomb...bomb, bomb Shanghai!
Bomb Shanghai
Out of the sky
Bomb Shanghai
You got me rockin' and a-rollin'
Now we're gonna go and just bomb Shanghai, bomb, bomb Shanghai!

That's what we all said.  ;D

My Lord.

Rosie Palm, perhaps...

Unreleased Smile out-take... "The Old Master-Bater"...

You just made me spill Mountain Dew out of my nose.  :lol

Somebody here once mentioned the existence of an amateur recording of The Beach Boys rehearsing "California Feelin" on a tour bus, I believe. What's the story on this? When was it made? I assume it hasn't been booted, because I've never heard or seen anything about it.

What the hell does Carl growl half-way through "Palisades Park"? It sounds like "Oh yeah, it's cookin' so bad I can't stand [it]!" but it's just inaudible enough that I'm not sure.

How many licks does it take for Brian Wilson to get to the center of a tootsie pop?

How many snorts does it take for Brian Wilson to get through a gram of coke?

How many birthday cakes does it take to make Brian Wilson weigh over 300 pounds?

The answers to all 3 questions are probably the same... :D

Is it true that Lady Lynda was used for a commercial on U.K. TV in the 1980's? Somebody made a comment on YouTube about it.

Don't recall that... but "When Girls Get Together" was, for some kind of drink.

I don't think that's Carl, but I've always understood it as what you wrote.

Yep, I have that recording on tape somewhere. I could check which drink that was.


EDIT:  found it, it was for a cocktail-drink called "Milty".

Somebody must have actually liked the song enough to put it on a commercial on TV. That's a scary thought.

So, what's the story about the Wilson/Paley sessions? I'm not as well-versed as I should be.

Readers Digest version: the day the conservatorship case with Landy was settled in late 1991, Brian called Paley and said something like "I'm free, come on over, we'll start making some real music". The sessions lasted about two, three years and were mostly recorded at Your Place Or Mine (Mark's studio), then they kinda petered out after the Don Was documentary. I think it's no big secret that Melinda is not a big Paley fan.

Here's something I've always wondered...what went down with Brian's pre-Melinda conservator, Jerome Billet? I know next to nothing about this period in Brian's life..,

>: (

And then she went and hooked him up with Joe Thomas???

Billet was appointed Brian's conservator immediately post-Landy. Brian (or more accurately, someone acting on Brian's behalf) filed a suit against Billet on September 19th 1995, claiming "negligence and breach of fiduciary duty" in which he was described as a "former conservator".

March 9, 1992 to June 22, 1995.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Ag4EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA13&lpg=PA13&dq=jerome+billet+brian+wilson+lawsuit&source=bl&ots=2YHnTdUlSZ&sig=YjCpFezCONInkARJP5A5YUXKpgY&hl=en&ei=Reo1TMjQFIKB8gbGy9SDDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=jerome%20billet%20brian%20wilson%20lawsuit&f=false

The suit was just the last shoe to drop in the extensive wrangling over the Irving-Almo case, then Mike's followup lawsuit. I would be very surprised if Billet wasn't the driving force behind Brian's representation in the latter case, which was, everyone agreed, horrible.

So some of the songs ended up on GIOMH, but a bunch of them have gone unreleased, right?

Yes. GIOMH as featured on the album is a Thomas-era re-recording of the Paley song with an 03-04 vocal on top. Soul Searchin and Saturday Morning in the City are both (regardless of what people said at the time) the 94ish Paley sessions tracks with some new vocals. Desert Drive is an 03-04 02 re-recording of a Paley track (but with Paley playing and singing on it). On 98's Imagination, Where Has Love Been has a Paley credit as well; there's no mid-90s version known.

Four other songs have come out in various forms. This Song Wants to Sleep With You Tonight was released as a single B-side in 95 and In My Moondreams was on a compilation around that time too. Cover versions This Could Be the Night and Sweets for My Sweets were also cut at the time and were put on tribute albums.

So, broadly speaking, nine tunes from the sessions have come out in some form or another. Of those, six have more or less the original tracks, and three are remakes.

But. There are easily another 10-12 quality tracks from the sessions (and a handful of others in rougher, demo form) that haven't been released officially. These include another song the Beach Boys cut vocals for: You're Still a Mystery, and bona fide classics like Some Sweet Day, It's Not Easy Being Me and Chain Reaction of Love. Good stuff.

A minor point but it's a 2002 recording, and the only track on the album in which Mr. Sahanaja is present. Paley was out of the picture by 2003.

True, dat - there was an abortive attempt to record a new album in fall 2002 at Western: "DD" is a refugee from those sessions. "GIOMH" was largely recorded in 1998 just after the Imagination sessions.

...and How Can We Still be Dancing was an Imagination outtake, correct?

What else was recorded in 2002?

Just three songs recorded fall 2002, and "DD" is the only one I know by name. "HCWSBD" was first recorded 1998, but I think the released version is completely new. For them as is really interested in GIOMH, the known session dates are:

2002:
fall - Desert Drive/two other titles [Western]

2003:
March
17 - A Friend Like You/How Can We Still be Dancing [Your Place Or Mine]
18 - City Blues/A Friend Like You/How Can We Still be Dancing [Your Place Or Mine]
19 - Don't Let Her Know She's An Angel/City Blues/Soul Searchin' [Your Place Or Mine]

April   
18 - A Friend Like You [Your Place Or Mine]

May   
23 - City Blues (Clapton's guitar solo) [Olympic, London, England]

July   
29 - A Friend Like You/How Can We Still Be Dancing [Your Place Or Mine]

August   
15 - Soul Searchin'/A Friend Like You [Your Place Or Mine]

There's more BW solo session info here - http://www.esquarterly.com/bellagio/gigspost99.html (http://www.esquarterly.com/bellagio/gigspost99.html)

I could easily be wrong but I seem to remember that "You're Still a Mystery" was attempted at some point---either during the 2002 sessions or the GIOMH sessions themselves. Thank GOD that didn't get released!

I remember that too. Was actually sequenced as the closing track, I think. They ended up wanting to end with The Waltz as a segue to Smile.

>: ( I like "You're Still a Mystery". Some of the lyrics are a little goofy and should be changed ("GOTTA FIND THE KEEEY NOW."), but otherwise I don't think it's too bad a song.

There are hundreds of stories of "odd" behaviour from Brian Wilson when it comes to Beach Boys concerts. Anything from not showing up to a show, to being totally off the wall(Maryland 1977 for example). My question is, have their been any known cases of strange behaviour from Brian during his "comeback" and subsequent solo tours? The only thing I know of is the show with Al where he almost passed out and had to leave the stage.

I'ts easily the best Paley/Wilson song.  I'm just glad it didn't get the GIOMH treatment.

What are Brian's religious views?

I know he was raised Christian to some degree and attended church regularly (sang in its choir and the like), but I get the impression he only nominally Christian, if at all, and that he at least believes in some kind of god? I mean, I'm not expecting him to be a Spinozist or anything (although that'd be cool!), I'm just curious if it's ever been really discussed to any degree that a picture if his religious outlook (if any) can be explicated.

Something that gave me pause was the single-issue verse in "Love and Mercy" that he used during one broadcast, I think, and that was it: "I was praying to a god who just doesn't seem to hear / Oh, the blessings we need the most are what we all fear." (Clearly, Brian is my favourite philosopher!)

I think there are threads on this, actually. But I believe Brian would fit into that ever-popular relatively modern phenomenon of "spiritual, not religious." It's tough to say, though, in that he has dropped comments over decades while of various mental and chemically induced capacities. Add to that the difficulty in discerning actual intention sometimes, in terms of literal speech v metaphor ("i.e., the devil is out to get me"; horned guy with a pitchfork, or you feel you have bad luck?), and it's just hard to say. I'd say he has pretty consistently said he has belief in some kind of supernatural power of good that you could consider to be a god. But if you wanted to get into a theological discussion with him on specific doctrine, my guess is that he'd ask whether it wouldn't be more fun to watch Norbit over a couple of birthday cakes.

I believe Jeff is an evangelical Christian, so I'm sure he's talked to Brian about that side of things. But I don't think BW is showing up at a megachurch anytime soon.

"God did it" is an interesting unreleased track in this respect.

I've read interviews from the '90s/'00s with Brian wherein he states that music is the essence of God, or the presence of God, or perhaps IS God. He also has stated, essentially, that he believes (at least he has at some moments in his life) that Phil Spector is a manifestation of God. In the interview where Brian says that about Spector, his handler gets nervous and asks the interviewer to stop asking questions about Spector. Interesting stuff.

Jeff?

as in the Foskett variety?

Yep.

http://www.worldmag.com/articles/10225

Brian attended Mesa Presbyterian Church.

That deleted verse in "L&M" was penned by Landy... and which single have you heard it on ? I've only ever heard performed live.

I should have guessed that it would be Landy, I suppose!

I meant 'single-issue' as in 'used once' rather than 'issued as a single', sorry.

So, if they made the Smile Box Set everybody's been talking about, what would it contain that we don't already have on bootlegs?

I've always wondered about the title: Terri, She needs me...I always thought someone missheard Sheri She Needs me from the Brian vocal in 76-77-78, whichever...but now I read on AGD's site that Terri was written or recorded around 88, was this for the BW solo album? using the old backing track or new one?

Another dumb question... is Brian a shapeshifter? I mean seriously, how did he manage to repeatedly look like a different person throughout his life? Sure, there are similarities that you can see throughout the decades, but I have difficulty reconciling in my mind 60s Brian (hell, even 62-63 Brian vs. 66-67 Brian is somewhat dramatic) with mid-late 70s Brian, late 80s Brian, and then late 90s-2000s Brian. It's almost like an anomaly, I swear. Very strange.

I've always thought the same thing, just never knew how to ask it.  :3d

There's this incredible photo used in the BWPS doc where 66-67 Brian looks like his old self - it's one where he's playing a mellotron or something wearing red tinted glasses.

Know the one you mean - it's the one with the dolls still in their display rack behind him. There's a B&W print in Leaf's book.

It's all about the hairstyle and beards.

Here's an exception that proves the point. Brian talking about Pet Sounds in the mid-90s. For whatever reason, he's decided to style his hair like it was in the 1960s, and wear a striped shirt (!). You can see it's the same guy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAEt3IKnZWY

Anyone?

It would have better quality tracks of certain songs for one thing I believe. There's also stuff we've never heard before, maybe that'll mysteriously surface  ;D

The History of Rock and Roll, 1993 or 94. Also contains the infamous sequence where Brian gets Alan to hold his nose to imitate Mike. Great doc.

[If this deserves its own thread, do say so!]

I was watching this amusing YouTube video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCvOiwUMNW8&feature=related), which details the various songs that Brian has (at least) inserted the "Shortenin' Bread" bass riff into, and it got me a-wonderin' about other examples of this sort of musical recycling. I guess I'm not especially good at this sort of auditory guesswork because I've only noticed it before in the 'dit-dit-dit' melody bits of "All Dressed Up for School" > "Games Two Can Play" > "Marcella" [and, at that, only especially in the first two]. Any other neat examples would be instructive and fun too! :)



Additionally, how did Brian come to know "Sloop John B", was it actually through Al? I ask because on the recent (like, last year or two, I think) In the Garage SOT boot there was a disc of early home rehearsals with the Wilson family where "Sloop John B" was featured (Audre was singing lead, if I recall correctly; I no longer have the boot). Putting aside whether the song is even a genuine folk song, did he just learn it from his parents and eventually Al brought it up as a possible single independently, or was Al at this family musical gathering as well and brought up working on that song in particularly as he remembered (ostensibly) liking singing it already? It obviously doesn't matter much, but I am, after all, still an obsessive enough Beach Boys fan (and a burgeoning folk enthusiast) to not only post on a BBs/BW fan forum... but to care about and be interested in such questions as well!

Alan suggested it to Brian circa 1965, Brian did his arrangement, yadda yadda yadda and last I heard, Alan was still bitching that he never got credit for 'inspiring' Brian to record it. Y'know, I try but sometimes it's hard to warm to the guy.

That is precious. Does Al think the music industry still works, with respect to songwriting credits and publications, as if it were the early 20th century? Well, I suppose if he is the token "folkie" of the group it would not be so strange.

How many Beach Boys vocals that are double-tracked come in single-track versions, and where could I find them?

Look on the SOTs. For pretty much every track that has this - (1st vocal overdub) - next to the track name, it means you have the master take vocal but only the first overdub.

cough-Rachael & The Revolvers 45-cough. ;D

That too.  :)

A few different points to earlier questions ...


Given that the original song, Sherri, was co-written with Russ Titelman in the 60s and that Titelman was a co-producer on BW88, it only makes sense that they resurrected the tune in '87. (http://www.btinternet.com/~bellagio/gigs87.html). I have always assumed they cut a new track, just because there's no way the 60s instrumentation would fit on what they were doing for the 88 album.


Brian always talked about the song as being meant for a follow-up album, which Brian and Joe apparently started work on in 98-99, before the touring kicked in. The released track for GIOMH itself comes from those sessions, if I'm not mistaken. As AGD said, they seem to have recut HCWSBD.


There are books that could be written about this. Brian never forgets a good riff (or song). If we restrict ourselves to riffs, rather than melodies, one that comes to mind is the "ah-oom bop-did-it" from "This Whole World" which later popped up on the Paley sessions tune "God Did It" as the melody behind the title line, and then at the end of "Your Imagination." Likewise, the little "bop didit, bop didit" that Brian used to accompany his late 90s version of "Joy to the World" shows up as a flute figure in the remake of "Don't Let Her Know She's an Angel" on GIOMH. And many, many others.

Have a question of my own -- the TLOS narration tracks. Is there any indication Brian actually composed music for those? My assumption was always that Scott and Darian just took some riffs from the songs and arranged them as backing. But all of them are credited Wilson / Parks -- not that that means anything, of course.

good call my friend

Well, Al claims that when he first suggested it, Brian said he wasn't interested because he thought the Kingston Trio's music was too simple. So, Al's story goes that he added a chord to the song, or changed how the chords were played around a little, which Brian then recorded. Comparing the two versions, I've found, is tricky. I can't find the original version of the Kingston Trio's "Sloop John B" for free on the web, and I don't feel like paying for it, but from what I can tell from the version I've heard the Kingston Trio do (and some chord pages, which you can't always trust), the Kingston Trio don't always make the chord change to A minor that Beach Boys do. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. It's weird.

Don't forget that Sloop John B is also among the songs on the "garage tapes", and that was way back in 1960. So obviously Brian had to have heard it long before Al Jardine came into the picture.

Yeah, this is what I was referring to when I asked my question originally, and why I was wondering if the common narrative of "Al suggested it" meant more 'suggest to record' than 'introduced Brian to the song and also convinced him to record it'. It seems to me that it could be taken both ways and that perhaps Al had wanted it to be seen more as the latter than the former sort of suggestion for whatever (financial, personal prestige) reason(s)...

First, because the thread is "Locked" I just read John's Definitive Vocals thread...exquisite work...Thanks, I will be really listening...

Second, I would like to "gently suggest" that I don't get how someone wants to "get credit"  for "suggesting" that a composer "work" on arranging a song.  The "actual work" is what merits credit not the suggestion that  a composer take it on as a project. 

Now, if it had been a "collaborative effort" that is a different story, and it seems over time, that people that did "active work" (not "suggestions" for arranged adaptations) and for whom real compositional credit was not awarded.  If you do "actual work" you should get "actual credit." Your notes, tapes, revisions all support your effort and contributions.  It is the concept of writing down, memorializing, or taping to "memorialize" your work to prove what you did should be credited.  It is tangible.

An exception might be where you work for someone as their employee, and "your" work becomes "their" intellectual property, such as a scientist working for a chemical company.  The work can either be shared by the two or owned by the company outright and by "arrangement" (no pun intended.)  You would be using their laboratory and work space, so it is a different scenario.     

There seems to be a disconnect as between "bringing something to the table of merit" and actually sitting with a pencil on sheet music at a piano or other keyboard, and studiously working through measures or working by yourself and later working out "jointly" details for a common "work." 

Maybe I did not understand the discussion of who deserved what credit.

As a general rule, "inspiration" (intangible) gets your name on the stern of a boat ;  the "actual work" (tangible) gets your name on the "check in the mail."  ;)     

For what it's worth, the TLOS documentary shows Brian demonstrating to Darian how he wants the piano part to be played on "Between Pictures" (I believe). Now, it could have been staged to look like Brian cared...or it could be that Brian did write it specifically as a connecting track...or the Darian came up with it, but producer Brian wanted it played a certain way. Take your pick!

I keep hearing the word "Bloo" thrown around. What does it mean? I guess I'm not well-versed.

Blueboard, the official brian wilson messageboard

aka the worst laid out msg board ever: http://www.brianwilson.com/community/index.html

I could have sworn I read somewhere that Sloop John B was in their live set in the early 60s, but I can't remember where, so I don't know...  I always assumed in that iteration they would have been going off the Dick Dale arrangement from his first record.

I think what Al is talking about when he says he suggested the song to Brian is that he convinced Brian to re-record this old song they knew from way back when in the Beach Boys more modern style, and release it as a single, which in 1965 or whenever this conversation was happening, deciding what the next single would be was probably a big deal, and probably a decision that Brian usually pretty much made on his own.

Whoa. You're right.

awww, I remember being apart of that board...and pissing off Brian when I asked about SOTs (so innocent at the time, I had no idea they were boots)...he replied and asked me not to discuss that there.

Is it actually Brian who posts on his board -- or updates his Twitter or Facebook, for that matter? I am extremely skeptical, but I guess I could be surprided. :lol

Why is he (his handlers?) so vehemently anti-bootleg anyway? I mean, besides the obvious "we want money" thing... or is that all there is to it? The SOT discs are a phenomenal resource and it's not as if they're not discussed in published books by various folks on the BBs.

I wonder how Brian reacted when he realized his band all owned bootlegs! :lol

Because bootlegs, like it or not, are traditionally produced through theft of intellectual property. They are stolen material, published to make money for people who aren't the creators.

It's pretty simple. (I'm not saying there aren't amazing things to listen to, just that the morality behind them is dubious, and as someone who makes a living from recorded music, Brian -- or the people responding for him -- have a pretty clear-cut case in refusing to grant them their imprimatur.) This is the classic bootleg model I'm talking about here -- file swapping has changed both the morality of the equation and the material available.

Yeah, this part is understandable enough. I actually dislike "traditional" bootlegs myself as well because of that same reason. I am perfectly okay with trading and file-sharing bootlegs though, especially for material that would otherwise never see the light of an official release... but I guess at that point they're not the same sort of boots (e.g. Purple Chick stuff, the Get The Boot volumes, and so on). At the same time, however, I am sort of in line with the Folkways method of music distribution: if a major label won't do it, someone should put it out because music deserves to be heard. The Anthology of American Folk Music, compiled by Harry Smith, for instance, was of dubious legality, considering it was sourced from old 78s recorded by Victor and Paramount and whatnot -- who were, you might say, less than happy about the box set from which they saw no royalties. But they never re-released any of the music they ostensibly owned themselves so...

Suffice to say, I am conflicted. I say this as someone who very much likes music but does not make it, and definitely not for a living. Perhaps I'd feel differently if I did, of course.

The lay out is the main reason I never bother going on the bloo, the threads are really hard to follow and you have to wonder why a more suitable message board isn't used.

No: Brian explained in an online interview ten years ago that he isn't at all computer savvy and that Melinda does the typing for him. She selects post for him to respond to, then types said replies. Of course, the Bloo being the Bloo - and here I'm proud to admit that said appellation is wholly down to me ! - there are posters who still maintain that Brian does his own posts. The twitters are Jeff and the Facebook page is run by Bloo admin Michael deMartin, and is the only official FB BW page (the FB page Brian Wilson's Blueboarders was set up by the loathsome Bluebird and, I admit, quite cleverly gave the impression that it was endorsed by Brian).

Well, at least they're his responses in spirit despite not being so in letter too? Nothing new about that kinda setup though anyway, so it shouldn't be at all surprising to anyone that this is the case, I'd think.

My favorite were the responses by Melinda that were later taken down ... I recall they predicted stuff that later came to pass, but they were supposedly hacked.

I'm proud to say that I haven't looked at/visited the Bloo, not even once, since a week after the Landmark Dedication on 5/20/05.  What a piece of junk!

Are there more BW piano demos like the 'Don't Talk' one on the Pet Sounds box in the vaults?

Oh really? Like what?

here's a website that I often refer folks to who are conflicted about so-called intellectual copyrights.
Enjoy!http://www.againstmonopoly.org/index.php (http://www.againstmonopoly.org/index.php)

I've no interest in debating the way the world should be, which is what the website you mentioned spends a lot of time on. I'm talking about the way it is, and what the law is now.

The question was why Brian Wilson doesn't want to discuss boots on his board. The answer, as I said, is that under current applicable law (not the law we wish we had), commercially produced and sold bootlegs are a form of theft of what he has created and has the right to sell -- or not -- if he chooses.

Now, one may argue that the wrong done to Brian Wilson through purchasing such an item is outweighed by the good of having such music heard by a wider audience. Which may be true. But that does not change the underlying issue for Brian and his org.

Well, IF anyone is interested they may like that site and he/she might gain new perspective on the issue as it applies to them (as an artist or a consumer), which is kinda relevant.
So, is it Bootlegs themselves that BW doesn't like to talk about, or is it anything to do with his unreleased back catalog?
Like, if you mention Sherry She Needs Me to him, would he flip or what? Just curious.

Was Brian ever invited to Bohemian Grove?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohemian_grove

That was one reason stated - another was that he didn't like people listening to material he didn't think was worth releasing, or incomplete.

Still, I wonder how he reacted when he first found out his bandmates had bootlegs.

Here's the funny thing...not talking about legality or nothing, but there's a good segment of fans who became fans primarily off of what they heard off of bootlegs, and not just talking about Smile either.

Someone needs to remind Brian & his people: no boots, no BWPS.

Really? what other material?

And given what came before BWPS, no current star in ascendance either...

I forget things like this, and how Brian probably takes them very seriously as he seems to be quite the perfectionist -- this is the guy, after all, who left "Let Him Run Wild" off the GV box set because he didn't like his leads!

I want to go to another concert of his and try to get him to play "Rollin' Up to Heaven" :lol

Aye, because Brian's concerts are full of loose jams and improvisations like that... by and large they just play whatever comes to them on a whim, or by request.

What's the deal with the "Fig Plucker" and "Oh Yeah!" session excerpts (?) from the Goodbye Surfing, Hello God! Vigotone box set?

Actually, I'd argue the stuff released from Smile on BB records and the boxed set was enough to build the legend. The people most into the boots were some of those most likely to have been disappointed by BWPS.

Well, the GV box set was what did it for me. I remember the day, about 12 or years ago, when I first heard the "hum be dum" part in the Good Vibrations session track. Man...talk about a revelation!  ;D

New question: Whilst skimming through the latest ESQ I saw that Cool Head, Warm Heart and Love Like In Fairytales are noted as being 'from the forthcoming album: Mike Love, Not War'. So, is Mike actually planning to release MLNW at last? Will he do an Al and offer it via i-tunes? Will anyone care?

Another cutesy question:

I was listening to one of the SOT tapes for the Today! sessions and I was reminded that Mike Love had attempted to sing lead on "Please Let Me Wonder" complete with alternate lyrics! As I recall, Peter Ames Carlin (in Catch a Wave) suggested that the song was about Brian's worry that Marilyn was cheating on him. This surprised me because the lyrics in the released version did not seem to denote that so obviously. The alternate (original?) lyrics, however, I think do present such a picture:

Can anyone offer insights as to why the lyrics might have been changed? Unless, of course, it was purely a musical decision... though I can't help but feel the less-direct lyrics from the released version (and the change of perspective from what he thinks she is feeling to what he feels for her) is more an emotional decision than merely a musical one. Thoughts? Amateur psychologising? Ridicule?

For one thing, the original lyrics don't fit well with the melody and beat of the song. There is either one word missing, or one word to many.

You can change the rhythm of the words to accommodate that. Extend a syllable, split a note into two, etc. It's not too much or too little, it's just not what you're used to.

Yeah I don't imagine that would be much of a problem...maybe they just decided to go in a slightly different direction, and make the song more romantic sounding rather than a song about a cheating lover.  The original lyrics are (to me, anyways) markedly more depressing and negative than those in the final version.  Perhaps Brian figured that he already had "In The Back of My Mind" as the big "downer" on the record, so he didn't want another song with such negative lyrics. 

I have a question. I was speaking to a friend at work today who plays in a band. He told me that he did a gig at a wedding reception on the weekend and that when the food was served they were using old records as placemats for the plates! His just happend to be a vinyl called "The Best of The Beach Boys". He ahem borrowed the record and took it home after the gig. Now bear in mind he is not a big BB fan (despite being a MASSIVE fan of '60's music) he told me he only recognised one or two tracks on it. Here's the interesting part - he claims it has a longer slower version of Good Vibrations on it. From his description it sounds like the version from the twofer Smiley Smile/ Wild Honey CD, but it's on an old crackly vinyl called "Best of the Beach Boys"???  It doesn't have a cover so I have asked him to write down a tracklisting and any pressing serial details it may have to help solve the mystery. Does anyone have any idea just what this record could be?  Just a boot?

Jeff as in Foskett, is a fundie(-mentalist)?  :o :o :o

Nevertheless, he's a great singer and musician.

I have a question about all the songs that were recorded at one time and then released one by one on later albums (mostly the Sunflower outtakes  ::)) but also including uncut songs.

BEWARE, a lot of question ahead, some might just be real easy....but to answer those, it'll make you feel good to deliver your Beach Boys knowledge to another fan.

Before they released them on a legit album, did they redo or overdub anything else?

Like I've heard the early cut of Take a Load off Your Feet and it sounds slightly different than the released one on Surf's Up, what was added?

Now Susie Cincinnati is a different story as it was released in many different forms, but I feel the 15 Big Ones cut is inferior.

Now on Good Time, is there a synthesizer added to this song to make it fit in on the Love You album? I don't know, I could be totally wrong...I know vocals weren't added, but I wonder if Brian considered adding vocals.

On Come Go With Me, the whole track was entirely recut for the MIU album, right? the first cut was a Brian production, then the MIU album/single is an Al Jardine approach? But I feel the same does not apply to Peggy Sue, listening to Christmas Time is Here again, it sounds like they just took the sleigh bells off the track; kind of similar to Melekalikimaka and Kona Coast, though I'm just guessing...obviously different vocals. But I will admit, the track to Bells of Christmas/Paris sounds exactly alike. Also, I've read where My Diane dates back to 15 Big Ones, and I've heard an early cut of it, but what was does to the version to release it for MIU?

I've also heard an early version of Lady Lynda (MIU era?), did Al totally recut the song for LA?

and the same story for Santa Ana Winds on KTSA? totally recut?  Speaking of KTSA, was anything different about When Girls Get Together? I feel as though I've read where Brian's vocal is turned down on the album. And if Dennis plays drums for Endless Harmony, when was it recorded? was it the original track to 10 Years of Harmony?

And speaking of 10 Years of Harmony (the GH album), was anything done to Sea Cruise or was it just taken from 15 Big Ones era, nothing added?

Also, what did Al do to Loop De Loop to release the final/perfect cut on Endless Harmony?
Were any of the previously unreleased tunes on the Good Vibrations boxed Set or Endless Harmony worked on at all?

How many vocals were added onto Our Prayer for 20/20?

and why does the track to Sherri She Needs me (Brian's vocal from 76) sound so different from the Sandy track?

If Child of Winter was fixed to be on the Christmas album from the 70s, was anything added to the song from the single?

Also, the only version of Lady Liberty I have is on 45, so I can't exactly play it at the moment, but is it a completely different track?

Almost invariably - trying to think of one archive track that was untampered... and failing.


Nothing - it's just a slight remix


Again, a slight remix - what you hear in 1977 is what was recorded in 1970. On the Spring version, yes, there are synths added.


Both versions are Jardine productions: I think he kept the handclaps for the MIU version.


Strings added.


Yup, but if you can find a copy, an early version plays in the background of a scene of the Almost Summer movie. Which, btw, features entirely different versions of the title track and "Sad, Sad Summer"  ;D


I'd say so, although the bvs sound very similar.


Respectively, a very, very slight remix... and Dennis play percussion on "EH", not drums. For recording dates, galo out my BB website.


That's about the only one I can think of that wasn't tweaked.


He re-recorded the first verse, did a remix. The original is still better.


Yes - pretty much all the Smile stuff on the box set was remixed and edited, and "4th Of July" was compiled from a safety master and maybe two other reels. "Soulful Old Man Sunshine" was compiled for the box set from the vocal multitracks, Carl's scratch vocal and the finished instrumental track, but Carl vetoed it because he flubbed one word.



One, maybe two layers.


'Cause it's a completely different recording.  ;D


As Ultimate Christmas shows, they remixed it - badly.


That's the only version there is - all they did (they being apparently Carl & Alan) was to strip back the track a bit and hastily dub new vocals, so hastily that in places you can hear the original ones (with 'Lynda' clearly audible) leaking through.

I'm going to go and have a rest now...

Alright, thank you so much!

I hope answering all these is your pleasure and not work, because I know when I get the chance to help out with info on here, it makes me feel somewhat smart.

yes yes, me too!

So about that biopic, American Family. Everyone knows that Mike Love oversaw the writing of that movie, and the proof is in the pudding, but if that's the case, how come he didn't have the whole illegitimate daughter thing taken out?

So when was the track cut for Sheri She needs Me?

http://www.esquarterly.com/bellagio/gigs65.html (http://www.esquarterly.com/bellagio/gigs65.html)  :)

Yeah Yeah   ;D

I was kinda throwing it out there for those who knew it right off the bat so they could feel smart on this board.  ;)

You know the real reason I put that site together ?

So's I don't have to remember this sh*t.  ;D

good call, I mean, the people (the beach boys) who did all that stuff can't hardly remember it either.  ;) :smokin

Maybe it's me because I post questions too much on here, but shouldn't this thread be a sticky at the top? I know we're trying to keep the sticky topics to a minimum, so I would understand if this suggestion doesn't occur.  :p

Lately, I've been reading the Add some Music to Your Day book, in particularly, the article: 'repairing the arid landscape the surf's up album[/i]' by Michael Bocchini. He refers to an album insert with a picture of a landscape; if memory serves me right, I've never seen this picture. Could someone be so kind and upload that photo or point me to the right direction where it's shown, in perhaps a BB book or Surf's Up twofr liner notes?

To go along with my singles challenge, I do have a question that I've always wondered, gearing towards singles. With the Beach Boys and Beatles both being on Capitol records, I'm guessing that Capitol had the 'say so' in what singles came out; but what always boggled my mind was that the Beatles had so many singles that don't appear on albums (majority of Past Masters Vol. 1 & 2, excluding single mixes; per example: Let it Be, Get Back, etc.) But the Beach Boys singles were always on the albums...was this because of a lack of confidence from Capitol? or did management have a say in this? I'm just asking for the fact that we don't have too many singles that don't appear on albums (aside from single mixes); really a handful of singles I can think of are: the Little Girl I Once Knew, Breakaway, Celebrate the News, Male Ego, It's a Beautiful Day, etc.

Not a landscape, but a brown-toned picture of a dried-up lake bed, the mud dried into polygons separated by deep cracks. It's used as the background of the pages with the "Brian Wilson himself..." headline. On the other side of this are the lyrics & credits (it's like a booklet with just four sides - said lyrics/credits are also reproduced in the 2fer booklet).

Meh - usually if a topic is worth keeping stickied, it keeps itself on the first page. Stickying things can often lead to it being easily missed because usually things that are stickied aren't worthwhile or are only read once (announcements, rules, etc.)

to give an idea...

(http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/6604/su1d.jpg) (http://img80.imageshack.us/i/su1d.jpg/)

and for the other (lyrics and photos) side, visit http://www.pipeline-operaglass.moonfruit.com/#/surfs-up/4517968224

thank you so much

I know throughout Brian's re-emergence in the 1980/90s it was suggested -- and sometimes actually planned -- that he work with various other artists who were at the time immensely popular and were huge fans of Brian. I know he was supposed to work with Sean O'Hagan (The High Llamas) and Andy Partridge (XTC), I think. (Both of these would have been amazing, alas! He should ring 'em up again...) Does anyone know who else, if there was anyone else, was floated that he could have worked with as a songwriting partner?

Some fun Patridge quotes featuring Brian (AV Club interview, 2007 (http://www.avclub.com/articles/andy-partridge,14057/)):

Not the most interesting question to ever be asked on this board I'm sure, but can anybody tell me if Dennis is vocally audible anywhere on the "Wild Honey" album? Can't hear him at all and no Bruce either for that matter.

How prevalent was the term "vibrations" being used for "innate impressions" before Good Vibrations came out?

I ask because I like the idea of a song changing the language like that, and I wanted to make sure.

Are there any...."fan videos" of any beach boys concert with Carl from 1997? I've never seen any footage of him from that year.

The asnwer is far more prosaic than anything you propose - in the UK the custom was not to include singles on albums, because then the fans were paying twice for the same songs.  While as on this side of the pond, the custom was to include the singles - since they were almost always the strongest tracks on the albums and would boost sales.  Capitol DID include Beatles singles that were not on albums in the UK on early Beatles albums on Capitol - and on  Yesterday and Today where they added Day Tripper/We Can Work It Out for example, or Magical Mystery Tour where they took a six song EP and made it into an album with five single sides.

Good call...perhaps this is why we have the LP version of Be True to Your School and a single version, same as Fun Fun Fun (though I dont hear much of a difference), etc.

Does anyone here know of the SMiLE material missing from the currently available boots? What I'm asking here, is what we expect to obtain with an official SMiLE boxset, in terms of new material, not higher quality or somesuch.

Off the top of my head, there is a complete November '66 mix of Child Is The Father Of The Man in the vaults that surely would be on there.

I'm pretty sure I hear Bruce on "Country Air". Dennis? Damn, I'll have to play it again tonight just to find out.  :smokin

Uh, that's around. If you know where to look.

*Spits coffee on my screen* What's it on?

Is there anything else that hasn't been booted? Just thinking about it, we have sessions for Wonderful (both versions), Heroes And Villains (the main sections, plus loads of little bits, including the Cantina, the bit that closes it on BWPS, and a lot of Part 2 sessions), Do You Dig Worms (although not the complete session, right?), Cabin Essence, Surf's Up, Look, CITFOTM, Holidays, Dada, False Barnyard, OMP, countless Vegetables sessions, Great Shape, WorkShop, I Wanna Be Around, the individual overdubs for Water, and even some Fire tapes!

The only things I can think we don't have are vocal overdubs on some things, the sessions for Barnyard, that mythical second Surf's Up session, and probably lots of other little tidbit H&V and Veggies sessions. But there is a lot out there....

I don't care how good the SOT's or whatever sound, I think an upgrade in sound quality might nearly be my main reason for buying a Smile box...

Was the chorus of Woody Woodpecker Symphony originally intended to be overlaid on the Fire track, as was finally done on BWPS?

I think it was the other way around: "Fall Breaks..." evolved (devolved ?) from the Fire Music.

Hmmm... interesting and plausible. Nice choice of words too...

Well, if you consider Lonely Days part of the Wild Honey album, I hear Brucie on there

True. Come to think of it, if that track had ever been completed it would have been Bruce's official lead vocal debut on a BB record.

The whole "Wild Honey" backing vocals is a mystery to me.  Why are they so far back in the mix and why has nobody ever tried to make them more clearer on subsequent reissues?  I know artistically they were going for a 'rawer' sound but still a sloppy mix is a sloppy mix.  Also I think "Wild Honey" marks the official start of the whole "Al and Brian sounding identical on high harmonies" thing.

WH truly is very shoddily produced, in a way that harms the enjoyment of the album. The vinyl is no better then the CD. It's all fake stereo. I have one LP that is comparable to WH: 'L.A.M.F.' by Johnny Thunders and the Heartbreakers (1st version, produced by John Keen and Daniel Secunda). Well, it's not really produced. It sounds like it was randomly recorded on a C-45 cassette, then transferred to 8-track cartridge, fed into a wax cylinder, put back to piano roll, and reconverted to a signal on Elcaset, and then finally engraved on vinyl with a worn sewing needle.

I am not joking.

Much of WH sounds demoish to me. If we didn't have the recording dates you'd think it was all bashed out in one afternoon at Brian's.

Also to answer my own question, I'm fairly certain I hear Dennis in the occapella blend on "Mama Says".

All adds to its considerable charm

On one hand yes, on another no. WH is another of those flawed post PS records. I enjoy most of the album greatly but it's still a 4 star LP at a time when the group had the potential to make 5 star ones. Smiley Smile, Friends and 20/20 also fall under this catagory.

hmmm, I think Smiley Smile is more along those lines....if you can drain the pool the night before for the echo chamber  ;D

What are Brian's thoughts on Pink Floyd? I've never really heard anything from BW about the group, but in that infamous pic from the late 80s (I think) of Brian holding the Spector Christmas album, Dark Side of the Moon is clearly laying beside a copy of Let it Be. So he obviously has a liking for it...let alone, Brian knows the best music.   :p

perhaps the cover of Game of Love on the Wild Honey outtakes has great backing vocals by Bruce?    ;)

Brian has commented that the intro to TIME "scared" him...and, given his liberal use of that word, I believe he meant that it thrilled him with its texture and "feel". Of course, the intro is pretty ominous as well, so maybe it did scare him a little, but not enough to put him off the album which he has mentioned as being among favorites from time-to-time.

What type of after shave does Mike Love use currently?

Sardine juice?

Jardine juice?

Does anyone know what the status of this is? No idea what he's talking about, either. AGD, care to comment?

These were left unanswered. Are they too boring?

Someone's put together a sequence of DW outtakes (a few years back) and called it "Ecology". I've heard it, and also heard the real "Ecology": shares a little music, but trust me, isn't "Ecology".

Session dates for both those are in the 'gigs & sessions' listings on 10452. They're just the Boys dicking around in the studio.

Gotcha. I swear, I need to make checking bellagio second nature... sorry!

No probs. Now, if you'd asked me who sang lead on "Let's go Away For A While", my wrath would have been biblical. Verily.  ;D

Well yeah, cuz that would be foolish -- everyone knows the lyrics were never recorded! >:D

Everyone knows Tony Asher sang the lead.  ;D

Keep an eye out for showers of frogs and rivers of blood...

This is off-topic, but I had this thought in my head the other day while mowing the grass....

What would a Brian Wilson solo album from 1970 sound like?

hmmmmm........

I keep seeing the name listed both ways -- Paul Mertens or Paul von Mertens. Are both correct?

Probably similar to the G-rated psychedelia of Sweet Mountain off the Spring album, crossed with the more experimental sounds of "Mt. Vernon and Fairway", and knowing Brian, he'd probably loose his confidence half way through and fill the rest of the album up with covers of Spector songs and maybe a few good `uns from the day.  We all know he liked Joe South's "Games People Play".  I also assume that if this fantasy album came out in 1970, Brian's involvement in Sunflower would be reduced, as would the number of songs he contributed, if any.  So let's stick "Cool, Cool Water" on as the last track.

Why did Bruce sing with Brian for the Imagination DVD? Brian just said recently that he doesn't like to work with him. ???

.


really? Where'd he say that?  Maybe for publicity. Sometimes, for my train of thought, there's a lot of times Bruce just thinks: "why not? I need a paycheck."  I'd be the same way if I were him

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,9128.msg155020.html#msg155020 (http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,9128.msg155020.html#msg155020)

Bruce don't need paychecks. Even if he'd never chose a life in the music biz he'd still have more cash than you could spend in a lifetime.

The list of things Brian did or said, and then subsequently said (or did) something 180 degrees opposite of that is so freakingly damn long that I'm amazed people still get crossed up by that. But they do. Brian has a long history of saying one thing, doing another, or saying one thing, and then saying he never meant to say that, or doing one thing and saying he never did that, or saying he did something and then saying he didn't...  etc... etc...

alright, thanks for making feel small....

btw, everyone needs a paycheck; why would Gene Hackman star in Superman IV?  ;D

Why did the Hackster go for another round of Superman? I believe Christopher Reeve still had the negatives of him, the bucket of fish, the tranquilisers, the Philippine ladyboy.............