Four more years!

[Jason]

Free markets and individual liberty will inevitably give way to perfect equality.

and what of human history has lead you to believe this?

Better yet, if you don't mind: please tell me: you and a boatload of 1000 people arrive on a piece of land roughly the size of Los Angeles County all for your own with no one already there except for maybe a few indians.... What do you do? How do you set up a livable situation? How do you prevent any form of government or whatever you want to call it and authority from existing? .... I want to know what this society would be like and how it would function.

Let's use the Constitution for an example. No one who lives in the United States signed the Constitution. So why are we governed under it? If a thousand people and a few Indians agree on some kind of framework, then it has to be agreed upon by all or it is invalid. Using the Constitution as our example, the Constitution is a contract that has no legitimacy because it is not signed by anyone and has not been since it was ratified.

Read "No Treason" by Lysander Spooner.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I'll look it up, but no one's exactly unaware that their names are not on the constitution. That's why the term "founding fathers" carries so much weight. We are a country of people who by and large believe a woman was impregnated by God and gave birth to a guy who was murdered and rose from the dead and we're all guilty for it.... Therefore, this idea that we are carrying out the wishes of these mythical founding fathers has worked like a charm.

You still didn't answer my question.... How would you create a society where no one's rights are impeded in any way? ..... I mean, isn't me having to stop at a red light infringing on my freedom to get to work as quickly as possible without having to stop along the way?

[Jason]

How would you create a society where no one's rights are impeded? Very simple. People have the right to their life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. They have the right to defend themselves against aggressors. I don't think it's more civilized than that.

Consent of the governed is bullshit in my opinion since I certainly did not consent to any of the Presidents I've lived under, but if all 1000 settlers and a few Indians agree on it, then that's on them.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

How would you create a society where no one's rights are impeded? Very simple. People have the right to their life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. They have the right to defend themselves against aggressors. I don't think it's more civilized than that.

Consent of the governed is bullsh*t in my opinion since I certainly did not consent to any of the Presidents I've lived under, but if all 1000 settlers and a few Indians agree on it, then that's on them.

It's easy to just say  "people have the right to their life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. They have the right to defend themselves against aggressors." All fair and good, but unless it's just each guy in his own cave with his weapons peeking his head around the corner and ducking out to snag a rabbit before a guy in the cave across the way shoots him and takes the rabbit for himself: how do you design a functioning society around that concept? ..... Bitching and complaining are one thing, but real ideas are another. And real ideas are the only way anything will change.... I'm damn open to some ideas.

BTW, I didn't consent for you to run whatever red lights you've run in your life or illegal turns, or mistakes at work that could have cost me something or infringed on my experience or rights as a customer.... That's not how things work.

[Jason]

You seem to go to extremes in order to prove a point. I'm not talking about people living in caves. I'm talking about people living in cooperative society without the impediment known as "government". I'm not talking about a society based on fear. If those one thousand folks came here together they obviously were looking to get away from something and start off fresh.

In the end it comes down to the people involved. The British settlers decided to kill the Indians - a people who lived under no form of state or government, just under a system of mutual cooperation. Honestly, I don't see people anytime soon pushing for a stateless society because too many people are simply irresponsible, so they need that "big brother" in order to keep them whipped into shape. People need to fight for their rights and they're not willing to, so they delegate that authority to government, which restricts some rights to protect others. It doesn't work.

Human nature is a tricky bastard, isn't it?

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

You seem to go to extremes in order to prove a point. I'm not talking about people living in caves. I'm talking about people living in cooperative society without the impediment known as "government". I'm not talking about a society based on fear. If those one thousand folks came here together they obviously were looking to get away from something and start off fresh.

In the end it comes down to the people involved. The British settlers decided to kill the Indians - a people who lived under no form of state or government, just under a system of mutual cooperation. Honestly, I don't see people anytime soon pushing for a stateless society because too many people are simply irresponsible, so they need that "big brother" in order to keep them whipped into shape. People need to fight for their rights and they're not willing to, so they delegate that authority to government, which restricts some rights to protect others. It doesn't work.

Human nature is a tricky bastard, isn't it?

Ummmm, people in this country have had to fight for just about every damn right we've got .... I could rattle off examples, but you already know what I'm talking about.... And I get your sentiment. But it's not just irresponsibility that keeps people from engaging in daily gun battles with the police/military. It is also a matter of some people being educated and having a deep understanding or sociopolitical issues and of political science and knowing what would work and what wouldn't.... And yes, some folks are just pure lazy. What I keep objecting to with you is your views seeming to come from a severely anti-social place. I don't know if you see this. As society of people coming from this same place would be extremely dangerous.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Also, I don't see how asking you to describe your envisioned society is going to some extreme.... If you can't think it, you should be able to explain it.

[Jason]

No, I don't see that and don't understand how you come to that conclusion.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

No, I don't see that and don't understand how you come to that conclusion.

OK, scratch that then and please describe your envisioned society and how it will work with no one's rights being impeded in any way by any form of government.

[Jason]

I was referring to your belief that I come at this topic from an anti-social point of view. I don't get how you came to that conclusion.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I was referring to your belief that I come at this topic from an anti-social point of view. I don't get how you came to that conclusion.

I know and if you don't see it, either I'm wrong or my point is proven... Not a big deal either way.

Now please describe society as you'd have it. In detail!

[Jason]

If any society is truly equal then all who would live in said society would need to approve of all aspects of said society. If all aspects are not agreeable to all parties, then there can not be any governmental body because the people have not consented to any government. It comes down to people. Some people will be criminals regardless of laws. Therefore it is the duty of all people to provide for their own self-defense. Unjust laws (those that infringe upon the life and liberty of others) should not be followed.

The issue is that you'll never have everyone agree on everything, so the only logical solution is no government and no state. People mingle as and when they please. If they wish to work together on projects, let them. If they wish to practice whatever religion, go ahead. Government can only exist as a voluntary association between everyone who agrees to it in writing. If not, then that government has no authority over you. For example, I didn't sign the Constitution, so why am I liable under United States law? I didn't sign the Pennsylvania Constitution, so why am I liable under Pennsylvania law? I should be able to smoke weed if I want to. It's not hurting anyone. I don't wish to encumber others with it by forcing it on them. What's the problem? Either you consent to your rulers or you don't.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

If any society is truly equal then all who would live in said society would need to approve of all aspects of said society. If all aspects are not agreeable to all parties, then there can not be any governmental body because the people have not consented to any government. It comes down to people. Some people will be criminals regardless of laws. Therefore it is the duty of all people to provide for their own self-defense. Unjust laws (those that infringe upon the life and liberty of others) should not be followed.

The issue is that you'll never have everyone agree on everything, so the only logical solution is no government and no state. People mingle as and when they please. If they wish to work together on projects, let them. If they wish to practice whatever religion, go ahead. Government can only exist as a voluntary association between everyone who agrees to it in writing. If not, then that government has no authority over you. For example, I didn't sign the Constitution, so why am I liable under United States law? I didn't sign the Pennsylvania Constitution, so why am I liable under Pennsylvania law? I should be able to smoke weed if I want to. It's not hurting anyone. I don't wish to encumber others with it by forcing it on them. What's the problem? Either you consent to your rulers or you don't.

But you're not telling me how this society would work/function..... What you describe would be chaos and would be taken over by foreign powers in a nanosecond.

[Jason]

I said that it would be the duty of those people to provide for their own self-defense.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I said that it would be the duty of those people to provide for their own self-defense.

OK, so what happens? Everyone gets a letter in the mail saying there's no more government, no police, no military. Your employer is now free to cut your pay by as much as he likes (um, you're free to discuss it with him) ...  and, er, you had better get down to the gun shop and stock up on as many weapons as you can.... So, I get down to the gun shop and gun fanatics have already cleared it out but I somehow manage to find a gun someone overlooked, but the now displaced owner of the shop demands 10 times it's retail value. I point out that he no longer owns his shop and while he's pleading his case, I realize that no one will stop me or punish me for punching him out and taking the damn gun, so I do. However, on my way to my car, I'm beaten in the back of the head with a bat and my gun is taken from me and there's no more 911 to call... Being the personally responsible chap that I am, I tough it out and look for my now stolen car and realize that I have to walk home. So,I get home and find the place ransacked because, duh!!!! I had to leave my house for a bit rendering it free and open since I wasn't there to defend it with the gun I failed to acquire in this new and free market.

Oh, and then five seconds later, the gun shop where all the responsible gun owners are fighting with each other is taken out by a carpet bomb via North Korea and then we're under the rule of North Korea and you have no rights to even defend anymore.

C'mon man! Present some workable ideas rather than just selfish sentiment.

[Jason]

I think that letter will eventually come when the government is finally repossessed by the creditors who own all of the national debt and own this country, but that's another story. If you really think North Korea can carpet bomb this country...well...good luck to them with that. Maybe the rocket will get off the ground...maybe. Who knows?

Do you really think that if government ended tomorrow that EVERYONE would just become out of control?

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I think that letter will eventually come when the government is finally repossessed by the creditors who own all of the national debt and own this country, but that's another story. If you really think North Korea can carpet bomb this country...well...good luck to them with that. Maybe the rocket will get off the ground...maybe. Who knows?

Do you really think that if government ended tomorrow that EVERYONE would just become out of control?

You're right about North Korea. But it probably would be more of a "coalition of the willing" who would come blowing back onto our shores....

And no, not everyone would be suddenly out of control. Not even most of us, but A LOT would and they would do some serious damage and it would be downhill from there. Not to mention the feeling would be contagious..... What you describe would be utter destruction.

[Jason]

With all the people who legally own guns in this country, the few who ended up causing trouble would be dealt with in cases of self-defense.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

With all the people who legally own guns in this country, the few who ended up causing trouble would be dealt with in cases of self-defense.

Oh, and then what sort of order would THESE folks impose?

You see, I don't believe in the concept of "responsible gun owners" A gun in anyone's hands is a dangerous thing. Sure, if you kill a robber or rapist with it, fine and good, but you are still dangerous in general.... The cops wouldn't like you very much either and they'd have you out gunned anyway.

[SMiLE Brian]

The real problem is that people crave power and crazy people would try to conquer in a stateless society.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

The real problem is that people crave power and crazy people would try to conquer in a stateless society.

Exactly! TheRealBeachBoy's desire to stay out of it and to not bother anyone or be bothered is commendable, but it's not an example of most of us, unfortunately.

[Jason]

The real problem is that people crave power and crazy people would try to conquer in a stateless society.

Exactly! TheRealBeachBoy's desire to stay out of it and to not bother anyone or be bothered is commendable, but it's not an example of most of us, unfortunately.

This is why you have to protect the right to defend yourself by any means when you're legitimately threatened. I don't buy the argument that gun owners are generally irresponsible and "trigger-happy", like they're out of Call of Duty or Battlefield or any video game. I don't think that most people are people who want to bother others. By and large, people DO want to be left alone. They DO want to make their own decisions without external coercion.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Yeah, but you knock all the tables over and want to start again with no government or police or military, you'll see a lot of folks true characters...

I wouldn't trust a single damn gun fellater I know in a pinch.

What would happen is the police and military would try and organize, placate and work with these guys a bit, but then one or two rednecks would pop off some shots at the cops and it would be over....

Or, we can make this guy President:

http://youtu.be/jzMn10Wjm4o

[SMiLE Brian]

It doesn't have to be gun owners. Look, we already have enough problems keeping social order with the government, police, etc. Imagine a world with the wackos of today having free reign with no order to control. I would love to think the human race is all decent, but its not. There are sickos in the population.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

It doesn't have to be gun owners. Look, we already have enough problems keeping social order with the government, police, etc. Imagine a world with the wackos of today having free reign with no order to control. I would love to think the human race is all decent, but its not. There are sickos in the population.

Not to mention, since this is all about rights: in such a situation we would have no rights whatsoever other than what we are within the means to defend. Someone bigger and badder comes along and overpowers you: you're only rights are what they might be kind enough to grant you....  If every single human transaction becomes a matter of gun-power:a gun battle between two people results in either one or both individuals either injured or dead, right? What sort of a society would this be??? You can't just talk and talk about "the right to defend" without envisioning and asking questions regarding actually having to defend.