The Smiley Smile Message Board

Why all the hate for Foskett? I admit, I'm not an insider; I just don't get it. I don't know much about his own albums, but his contributions to the BB's/BW canon sound pretty nice to my ears.

Some people don't like his (aged) voice and the fact that he partially replaces Brian and sometimes Carl musically, some people don't like his role in Brian's life and career (or rather, how they think Jeff treats Brian), some people are simply jealous (since the man's career with the Beach Boys is a fanboy's dream come true), and for some people it's all of the above.

All I know of Jeff is from official material (DVD, etc.), interviews and the two times I've seen him perform with Brian. He seems like a nice guy, a capable musician and is among the select group of people we should thank for keeping Brian (not only musically) afloat for the last 10+ years.

Some people here rag on him on a vicious and childish level. They drool yucky lamb and peas all over themselves and think that they are being so adorable. Aw, little guys...

I think I'd like him 20% more if he didn't do that thing turning the guitar around at the end of the Smile video. Possibly 25%. Bands, let this be a lesson to you: carefully consider the ramifications of dramatic unveilings of stickers at dramatic high points.

His falsetto sounds terrible now and he was pushed up in the mix in two major reunion performances.  That's the main objection.  He is a good guitarist, though.

Uh huh.

Apparently, in addition to musical services, he has appointed himself to be Brian's bodyguard/bouncer.

I believe he has been hired by Brian and Melinda for that role, actually.

He also punches puppies. Like, properly punches them.

I would expect Brian(or any rock star) to have security people around him when he is at a concert hall or stadium as a touring performer, but I'm surprised that he would have a need for a bodyguard if he were to do everyday things like going out to a store or restaurant. Is it a question of Brian's mental competency?

He's not with him in those contexts. Jeff is his bouncer / minder when Brian is on the road -- which is when everyone has these interactions with him.

There were periods where people were concerned if Brian was out alone, but that wasn't a factor until his thirties. I understand that since Landy was banned he's gone out alone regularly. It's how much autonomy he has had in his career since 1975 that is the debate.

Brian drives himself when not on tour, down to the stores/eateries, or to the park where he walks - there's ample photographic evidence and I've spoken with people who know him in a domestic setting. Jeff has been referred to as many things - bodyguard, safety net, security blanket, companion - but it's more complex than that, and the issue has been clouded by those with an axe to grind. If I had to put a label on it, I'd choose something like supporter, buffer and, yes, sometimes official ass-kicker. Brian is essentially a lazy guy - sees a chair, sits in it - and sometimes needs 'persuading' to fulfil his commitments. Jeff can seem prickly at M&Gs, but given some of the fans behaviour I've seen there, I can understand why. He's also understandably sometimes short with the likes of you and I, fans who think we a) know more than we do and b) know what's best for Brian. He and I have had our differences, but he's also said and done some very nice things to and for me that he totally didn't have to, and for that I respect him immensely. His is an unenviable, essentially no-win situation... and never forget, he's had some bouts of serious ill-health along the way.

But I digress - Brian doesn't need, or want, 24/7 surveillance. He can drive his own car. I'm reliably informed it can be take years off your life to be a passenger when he is, but he's no worse than most out there in LA. Jeff has his own life outside of Brian, touring with PDRR.

Well said Andrew. I never have talked to Jeff personally but nobody I do know has given me reason to think anything bad of the guy. I'm sure he has hurt some feelings along the way, but I rather feelings get hurt than Brian.

Jeff was cool when I met BW a few months ago.  helped to make an awkward situation comfortable.

I like him, but his voice is....sometimes a little strident. Maybe it's a simple matter of being too far up in the mix; or the other voices being relatively characterless(i don't know.)  He's a great singer, mind, but there is some quality in his voice that is a little brassy, perhaps. The constant Foskett jokes, like most jokes, have gotten pretty old, though.

People don't like him because in their mind, they think they sing falsetto better than him.  99% of the hate you see thrown at him is because of this fact.  Most people don't want to admit it, but when they sing along with their cds, they imagine that they've finally figured out how to hit those notes just right, and Jeff simply isn't doing it right in their eyes.

From there, everything he does is flawed to them, and they think he's convinced Brian he's the falsetto guy the same way Landy convinced Brian he was his friend. 

You'll soon see several of these haters replying telling me I'm wrong, which will tune you into the fact that perhaps I'm right. 

:) 

Those of us who think Jeff sounded pretty terrible on the Grammys and at Dodger Stadium are not "haters."  I get tired of hearing that world thrown around.  It's a way to invalidate other people's opinions that are quite valid.  "You didn't like that? You're just a hater!" Jeff sounded bad in those two instances, which was not a good way to kick off reunion appearances. Jeff's singing voice was never extraordinary in any range, but it was okay and acceptable in the falsetto range a few years ago.  It might still be okay in the lower ranges, but if that's what his falsetto sounds like now (and he wasn't just having a bad day or hay fever), the powers that be either should have other singers doubling him or they need to turn him down in the mix, a lot.

As for his other duties, I have no idea.  I can see why someone might yell at Brian if he's either being difficult or has a hard time hearing in a loud room.  I've seen pictures of him with Brian at signings at record stores, not just after shows, but then I've seen Taylor Mills in those pictures, too, so they could be coming out to represent the band as well as give Brian support.

You're on the money here, Bonilla.   And not just about the subject of Jeff Foskett. 

Are you reading, kiddies?   It's gettin' real old.

The joke about Jeffrey Foskett revealed:

Q) Why did Jefferey Foskett cross the road?

A) Because the light was green.

See, it's not really that funny now, is it? So leave him alone!

Well said , and everybody can sing like Brian did over 40 years ago NOT !!! Nobody will EVER sing like Brian did , fact !!
Must say for Jeff , if he read all this hate ( which he probably does ) there would be no middle ground in his thoughts , he would either be heartbroken or not give a sh*t about a number of would be musicians/brilliant singers who are extremely jealous of his employment.
I have personally met Jeff on many occasions ( in various situations ) and found him to always be very gracious..  

I would say he is the latter, but there have been times he's been less than thrilled with people's opinion of him. I remember eons ago of him posting a rant on the Bambu board. I had no clue what the fuss was at the time because I was still  a bit of a newbie. However, overtime I have come to understand why.

I don't mind complaints about his voice in and of themselves, but people going 'HE'S GOING TO TAKE OVER THE REUNION' really get on my tits.

It's possible he have too large of a role in the reunion to suit people's taste, whether he sounds good or not.  But it won't be an evil coup, it will be because the old guy Beach Boys are too damn lazy or just not capable anymore. I'm not sure why they need such a huge band.

Ive totally changed my opinion on Jeff since I've heard him in TWGMTR

Jeff has always been cordial to me over the years.  Over many years.  That says something about someone's consistency in dealing with fans in a good way.
Also, if he wasn't reliable as a "supporter" with BW, would he still be in that role after all of these years?  His singing?  He manages to fit into almost any conceivable mix of BB personnel that he is thrown into and manages to help whip the vocal blend into a presentable entity.  He seemed to have his hands full last time I saw him at the early US Gershwin shows without Taylor.  Brian needed some support there and Jeff was on the ball.

So, Jeffrey is OK by me.  Always has been.

First time I ever saw/heard Foskett was the Beach Boys concert after a Seattle Mariners game in 1983. Was impressed with his vocals on The Warmth of the Sun. That was a highlight of the show for me. Never had any problems with his vocals on the various recording projects he's contributed to (Overwhelming World Suite on America's Human Nature album from '98 stands out for me). I admit I was disappointed sometimes at Beach Boys concerts that he would do the guitar solos on some songs, I wanted to hear Carl do them ALL. But apparently Carl did not mind sharing the spotlight with Jeff. Beach Boys/Brian fans are such a hard-to-please group. There's always a bunch of "fans" criticizing every move, whether it be a new (or old) album, a setlist, Mike's wardrobe...whatever. Sometimes it seems as if these guys can never do right by us.

Complaining always comes from an irrational place.

Who are these "haters"? Seems to me everyone one this thread seems to be directing their venom against some non-existent sub-section on this board. There are those who voiced an entirely valid concern that Jeff was the only voice that could be heard on the two live appearances. Then there were those such as myself who recounted a genuine tale of something Jeff did which really turned them off the guy. Read back on my post please. You'll find no hate. I took what everyone said on board, and softened my opinion soemwhat.

But I still don't like the guy, based on personal experiences. I don't have to explain or defend this. Likewise you don't have to explain or defend why you like him. Good, I'm glad for you / him. I think what a lot of you have to learn to cope with however, is there are minority opinions on here. Not sure why that is so threatening.

For me this discussion ended long ago, and amicably. It's all you "likers" that are keeping it going.

I have my opinion, and as the Americans amongst us are fond of saying - Deal with it.

 :) Let's just be happy about the reunion eh, or not.

I think the envy for Jeff has a very simple basis - he's where a lot of BB/BW fans are where they think they want to be.

There was a lot of whining going on in the tour/dodgers thread. But I wouldn't classify you as a bitchy Foskett-hater at all, IHA.

Sometimes I think that stupid joke thread I started is making people think I hate Foskett and am contributing to all this bitchiness...  ::)

I'm not envious of Jeff. The backbiting nature of the BW camp is the last place I'd want to be, believe me!  

His rudeness to Brian I've thought about, and as I say softened my opinion.

However I met him, stuck my hand out, he snubbed me. Anyone who does that to me, I have no time for.

But as I say, if you've all had positive experiences with him, then good for you. All it proves is he's a normal human being.

But so am I, and if someone makes a point of being rude and trying to belittle me, then I'm not really going to like them am I?

And I'm happy to let it go and not mention it again!


It was your Hitler pasteover moment?

It's OK,  we know you luuurve Fosky really and want to kiss his bald spot.

My thoughts on Jeff in general...

On one hand, I've heard some pretty personally damning stuff about Jeff -- most of which he's publicly admitted to -- but overall...

1) I'll say the guy's got a really good voice, including the high notes....and sometimes vocally he's a dead ringer for Carl (esp. "Child Is Father Of The Man"), which is no surprise given how much the guy always looked up to Carl. Having said THAT, though, I do prefer Matt Jardine's high vocals.

2) Musical talent....he's a good musician for sure. Needs to work on some original material though, as evidenced by Thru My Window and his Christmas album. When he really puts some effort into his originals, though, he's a really solid songwriter, as evidenced by a lot of the material on Twelve And Twelve.

3) In terms of interaction...I've met Jeff several times (so many that he easily recognizes the Mrs. and me, possibly even by name -- about ten years ago he made an off-the-record comment to me about something I posted on the Psycho British UK Fan Board...uhh, sorry, I mean "blue" board), and each time he's been very gracious...including literally spotting the Mrs. and me in front of the stage at a show last year during "All Summer Long", and during the instrumental break he walked over, bent down, shook hands with the two of us and said "Good to see you!" Many of our friends have had similar interactions. My thought is that anybody who's been treated kind of douchily by Jeff must have been giving it to him first or coming on too strong. I saw this happen after a show once, an unusually late show...and they were all exhausted, especially Jeff. One fan practically pounced on Jeff and nearly demanded autographs on some things -- including an obscure Foskett single that this fan described as "Little Deuce Coupe but sideways" -- meanwhile Jeff was practically dragging himself to the hotel that was next-door to the venue. This fan would NOT leave the poor guy alone..."Can you autograph this for me?" "Can you get Brian to autograph that for me?" and this was after Jeff did stop and talk very briefly and very politely explained that he and the rest of the band -- especially Brian -- were terribly exhausted, they weren't used to playing such a late show, they really needed to rest up before going back on the road, but if anybody was going to the about-to-happen Carl Wilson Walk (this was when the Carl Walk people actually gave a $#!t about fans) he and the other guys would be happy to sign things for them. But no, this guy had to keep harrassing Jeff, who as he was practically crawling to the hotel, just kept exhaustedly and robotically replying, "Go to the Carl Walk." So yeah, if you do THAT to Jeff -- or ANYBODY, for that matter -- you're not going to be welcome with open arms!

No. Not saying this to keep it going, just in my defence. I was introduced to him, I smiled, put my hand out, he looked me up and down and turned away to talk to someone else.
How is that coming on too strong?

No, very far from it. It's one of the funniest things I've seen in months, and certainly to me it seemed the best possible reaction to all the inexplicable hatred for Foskett that's been all over this board recently. And I do think it's inexplicable -- his vocals, and place in the vocal mix, are no different than they have been on all the Brian tours and albums we've had in the last thirteen years, and pretty much nobody has complained about him then...

I'm really getting fed up with this now. I give a very good personal reason why I don't like him, yet at the same time show understanding that other folk may feel differently, and I'm accused of inexplicable hatred. He was probably just having a bad day, or maybe I reminded him of someone or thought I was someone else. I can't be more reasonable than that.

Why don't we end this thread with the unique idea of agreeing to differ?

I know a few people who have been treated that way by Foskett on different occasions. He is an overbearing pig. Sorry, but that's the truth. He may as well be a replacement Murry. Brian probably needs someone like that to order him around.

Jeff Foskett is from my neck of the woods.  Went to school here, played in bands around here, became a born again Christian here, and still lives here.

A few months ago I was at Amoeba Records in S.F. where Brian was signing copies of the new Smile release. When it was my turn in line, the girlfriend and I walked up and stood in front of the autograph table where Brian was signing. Brian wasn't looking up - the line had to move fast and stuff was being taken by a store employee and shoveled in front of him to sign.  Foskett was leaning against the wall behind Brian, watching the proceedings. He looked at my girlfriend (she was wearing a dark blue SMiLE shirt) and said loudly, "Nice shirt!". She said, "Thank you!" I said, "How ya doin', Jeff?" He replied with a big smile, "Great, how are you doin'?" Only then did Brian look up and smile at my girlfriend after seeing her shirt. I shook his hand. If it weren't for the exchange with Jeff, I don't think Brian would have bothered to acknowledge us, as he didn't with most of the people getting stuff signed that night.

Then I'm reading all the personal crap against Jeff here and I'm thinking, "Have you guys ever met Jeff before?? Do you even know the guy?"  I doubt it.

And I. Spacecase, you're an effing idiot who doesn't know what the hell he's talking about!  ;D

Can we come to a compromise that Jeff is human, cool at sometimes and not at other times.

Absolutely. That's what I've been saying all along. I'm a bit defensive here because I don't like being labelled a "hater". I don't hate anyone.

Maybe we could wind this thread up and move on from the Jeff thing, eh?

Jeff does interact with the audience at shows and tries his best to put on a good performance and seems to be having a good time up there, so that is a positive about him.  He's not one of those band members off in his own little world.  He seemed very happy to be performing Smile in a symphony hall near where he grew up (Davies Hall in SF), with all family present (he mentioned it), and it was right after he had gastric bypass surgery, so he looked amazingly fit.  I was sitting in the second row, right under where he was on stage.  At one point, our eyes met and he smiled at me and winked.

I will forever treasure my wink from Jeff Foskett.  It was special.  

What about rumors I've heard about Jeff and Carl's wife?

What about the rumors about him and something he did in 1989 while with the Beach Boys that they were upset about?  Was that what it was?  Not to spread rumors.  But I did kind of got the idea that Jeff has an eye out for the ladies because he was winking and nodding at a few of them in the front rows at that Smile show.  Harmless, I'm sure, but you know how guys go into music to get chicks.  I'm sure he's at least a big flirt and that can lead to trouble sometimes.

I certainly don't want to be out there in the middle of a baseball field supposedly singing with the Beach Boys and being the only one audible in the mix! I find it an outright hideous and humiliating idea!

I never heard about Carl's wife. I did hear about Jeff's marital indescretion, and I heard that pissed off some Beach Boys wives and the band took action. I think he was gone soon after that. He profusely apologized for it, and that's what led to him becoming a Christian, I think.

I was in back of you in the audience at Davies Symphony Hall.  I saw him wink at you and got jealous.

Saw Frank Holmes that night and said hello.  Also met David Anderle. People were crowded around Anderle listening closely to everything he said, like he was divulging all the secrets of SMiLE.

Cool.  I think Jeff winked at a few people. He seemed to really be feeling his Cheerios that evening.  He was about half the size he was the last time he was on a Brian tour and I'm sure he was proud of that.

Been making posts like this and deleting them several times over the past few weeks, but the endless painting of folks who dislike what Jeff's doing as irrational whiners isn't fair, at least in most cases.

My biggest problems with Jeff basically begin and ends with his voice being overbearing, him singing everything like he's the lead singer, and his voice always dominating whatever performance he's a part of - I'm not just talking about the two recent performances and now, unfortunately, the single. This has been going on for a while. The doubling Brian thing was first noticed by me on a couple spots on the Smile record where I could just tell something was off, these vocals weren't as good as the others. I'll add that him even accepting orders to double Brian is disgusting in and of itself.

The dominating, by means of being overbearing or by just being way too high in the mix, was noticed around then, too. And then it was realized that this was Mr.Smile-guitar-oh-yeah-baby who was behind all this. That was the moment that Jeff started to irk me.

I'm puzzled as to how people can say he's a "dead ringer" for Carl, one of the greatest rock vocalists of all time, or Brian, who was up there with Carl. To my ears, the guy's voice sounds too bloated, too hoarse, too overbearing. Part of this is clearly his decision, and that's why I take issue.

I would not want Jeff's role for the same reason Iron-Horse Apples stated. No thanks. That's not in me.

The "fixing Brian's collar and telling him he can't have his eyes closed for more than two seconds" thing was sad to see, but it came after. The born-again Christian thing was amusing, but I don't care about that, and it came after. Him disliking Love You and likely being the reason none of those songs are played live was extremely disappointing, but it came after. The solo records that sound like bad Sunrays knockoffs thing was further icing on the cake, but again, it came after.

The issue begins and ends with him dominating and ruining performances for me, the other stuff doesn't really factor into that. Again, I hate to be so critical, I hate being negative, I just wish he'd take it down a level as far as singing everything he does like he's the lead vocalist and wish he'd not agree to double the folks who are basically the reason anyone knows his name. It's backhanded to those people and it's backhanded to the fans. I want to hear The Beach Boys, be they 20 or 70 years old, aged and compromised or not. I want to hear them, I don't want to hear them doubled by someone else who has been deemed or deems himself a superior singer who needs to "save" them from sounding iffy. I don't want to hear a touring member's vocals over everyone else's. There's augmenting with additional vocalists because the original composition has more vocal parts than people on stage, as they've done since the 70s, and then there's what Jeff does. There's a world of difference. I want to hear Brian singing on a Brian Wilson album/show and I want to hear the Beach Boys singing at a Beach Boys show or on a Beach Boys record. I don't think that's the least bit irrational.

Sorry. :\

We need a YouTube video of someone pettily trying to mess with Brian when all of a sudden, Jeff comes rushing into the frame in "bouncer" mode and gives them a royal beat down. Falsetto and all.

Frankie Valli still has a pretty strong falsetto, but though you can definitely hear him in the mix, he is doubled or even tripled at live performances.  It's just a hard sound to pull off live.  If Jeff recused himself from the duty, someone else would be asked to fill it (and since Brian no longer sings falsetto for the most part, Jeff already is doubled or tripled live when they have the full band).  They just need to find a better balance in the mix.  Also, when Jeff doubles with Brian on the non-falsetto parts, you can see either in videos or at the performances that there are times when Brian doesn't even open his mouth and sing.  That's not Jeff's fault.

Seconding this. Not all critics are jealous or have superiority complexes - hell, probably not even the majority.

When Jeff screams "GOD!" it sorta reminds me of Carl circa Love You or something. Funny, considering Love You is allegedly hated by Jeff/BW camp. I really hope they don't ignore LY this tour.

It reminds me of terrible and too loud.

I think it basically comes down to there are those of us who will be verbally disappointed if the Beach Boys 50th anniversary reunion tour goes out as basically "Jeff Foskett sings the Beach Boys: with special guests: The Beach Boys"!!! Any fan has every right to take issue with this.

I really really hope that tonight proves me(us) wrong however.

Clearly there is no other explanation for your so-called opinion but jealousy. ;)

Jealous of what, exactly? ^_^

You guys sound like a bunch of girls.  Serious.  Don't you have anything to do?

I'm sure songs from LY, LA, MIU and SIP will be all over the setlist. "It's a love thing"

He was being satirical I think, hence the wink.

There is no humour to be had here though. I forsee that Jeff will be assassinated while the Beach Boys play Sarajevo, thus triggering the war to end all wars, Jeff War One.

I think they should do it to you first since you contributed so much to the Jeff Foskett negativity here. And you don't seem to want to quit. Only keep stoking the fire. You keep saying you're not a hater, but you use the words "Jeff will be assassinated". Kinda dumb ain't it? What's so funny about that?. But you keep vehemently denying on these Jeff threads that you're not a hater.  I don't believe it.

I'm with Mikie. Dumb choice of words. Not something to joke about.

I was just trying to lighten the tone, by comparing Jeff to Franz Ferdinand, and this current battle like world war one, i.e pointless. Just my wierd sense of humour, I apologise if it offended you, seriously.

I'm not going to defend my position anymore. I've really had enough of this subject and the anger it seems to be causing. I like your posts Mikie, I like you. I don't hate anyone (apart from Oasis). Lets all lighten up and enjoy the reunion eh?

So positivity is alive and well here, eh?  Cool.   :)

Friends? :)

(I'll ignore your death threat)

Of course, man!   Nothing personal, just a little unfriendly advice, that's all.   Sail on.

How about the possibility that Jeff is just a shill to move all the hatred and bile away from Mike? Which would seem to be working  ;D

What would Ted Nugent say?

What would Phil Cohen say?

 8)

Ted's over in the corner scratching the cat.

I don't know who else agrees, but I ask that this thread be closed, on a positive vibe.  That we put this pointless argument aside and concentrate on the wonderful gift we have been given with this reunion.

I'm in a loving mood, what say you guys? Lets all hug and make up eh?

  Without naming names, I was once told by one of The Beach Boys that  Jeff was fired because he had helped himself to some money.

B.S.  Jeff was canned because he messed around and the wives didn't like it. 'Nuff said.  Done. Over.

Well, if you were a good looking woman, I'd think about it........

I am not a Jeff-hater and the joke was maybe in poor taste, but I knew it was a joke... So you still have all my love, Iron Horse-Apples.

Messed around with whom exactly?

Why would anyone specifically pick Jeff to be jealous of? I'd be more jealous of Darian or either of the Scotts or Mark Linnet... people with creative control.

They are not as present as Jeff in the overall circus of all things Brian Wilson.

Hint:  It wasn't a guy.

NTTIAWWT

How in the world did I figure out what that stood for?

I was only kidding with the jealous crack. perhaps this smiley:  :p would have made it clearer?

Perhaps my lacking intelligence is what made it happen. imo.

I heard that too, back in the day: not so, as it happens.

Groupies he's stated it publically so no surprise here.

Kicked out of the band for groping some groupies? I guess Dennis got kicked out every night.

That's what he said in an old ESQ I think.

I was gonna say that too. I guess Denny had more freedom... that is up until the early 80s.

Okay, just to make it clear, from what I've seen, the thing about Jeff messing around and arousing Beach Boys' wives' suspicions about their own husbands is indeed PART of the reason he was let go. The source: Jeff himself admitted it. It was in a fanzine. The interviewer had asked Jeff if it was true that he left the Beach Boys because he was tired of the oldies direction the band was staying with and with no sign of hope for variety to please more fans, and Jeff responded as such about the infidelities.

He also said that he had major attitude problems back then....they didn't like his cockiness. Carl asked him to leave.

In the same interview Jeff said that Carl's act of tough love basically saved his marriage. I think this interview was from 1998 or thereabouts. Obviously his marriage wasn't saved all THAT well -- as I met Jeff's wife Diane (or is it Diana?) in 2003 -- a week or two after they had gotten married. :)

I guess if I have a problem with Jeff, it's only really because of info I've heard on this board: namely, that Jeff dislikes and discourages Brian's nuttier side, like material in the "Love You" vein.  I feel that Brian should have total artistic freedom over his own art, and if he wants to play Shortenin' Bread or Roller Skating Child live, friggin let him do it.

Brian Wilson is half crazy.  His fans know this and expect it and even love it about him.  I don't like the fact that his inner circle seems hell-bent on suppressing the nuttiness, and presenting what amounts to an air-brushed BW. 

Thing is, as big fans, we KNOW Brian is nuts...but for someone who's a Beach Boys fan and might just be familiar with the pre-Smiley Smile material -- basically, doesn't know much but enjoys the music -- that person won't understand. That person wouldn't put up with two hours of "Shortnin' Bread" and "Be My Baby." Local newspaper journalists won't understand when reviewing the concerts.

Also, part of me wonders whether Brian's eccentricness is part of his own oddball sense of humor...like if he gets a kick out of it...if he himself figures, "Well, they know I'm nuts, let's have some fun with it!" The Bono story, the Don Henley story, and the "Hi, queen" anecdote come to mind...maybe he's doing it to see what he can get away with and how far...

BTW, the band can't ALL be anti-Love You; "The Night Was So Young" was in the set list in 2002...and when they were on QVC in July 2000, someone asked Brian what his favorite Beach Boys album was, and he said Love You, and he singled out "Ding Dang" and even played and sang a little of it, and a couple of the guys joined in...

But a creationist? Damn, I thought he was too intelligent for that.

"That's Why God Made the Radio" is a very creationist sentiment...  :)

This should be every Brian Wilson concert: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xouj4DyeaTM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xouj4DyeaTM). Maybe he even asks us for coke or a joint and we eat some burgers together.

Oh no. Joe Public won't "get" Brian Wilson. Because they get him *so* well as it is.

There is a happy middle ground in there, one that I'm thinking Brian would be totally fine with. The notion that Brian would sincerely want to play "Shortenin' Bread" or "Be My Baby" for an entire show is an amusing exaggeration, but an exaggeration never the less.

The fact that Love You was the work of a man pretty much trying to kill himself with drugs and alcohol as his marriage, life, and mind was collapsing around him does seem to escape some people.

I love Love You. I'm glad its exists. But I am kinda happy Brian is not that man any more, and seems more at peace with himself and his illness. And who are you to say Brian is not making the art he wants to make? Love You was over 30 years ago. Heaven forbid he might have CHANGED.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't '76 about the time when Landy stepped in and Brian was actually off drugs, off alcohol, eating healthy, finally getting some treatment etc.? Wouldn't that make Love You something Brian was capable of while being extremely clear-headed, then? People call it a "sick" record, saying it's the sound of Brian's mental illness, but if everything I said is just true (again, I'm not entirely sure), then... yeah.

And while no one aside from Brian can really say what he wants to do nowadays, it's kind of naive to think his handlers and the folks who control his life, public image etc. aren't extremely detail-oriented when it comes to his presentation to the public. If Brian essentially wrote Love You II, I really don't know if the folks in power would let it happen without an extreme amount of modification (if at all), as they really seem hellbent on not allowing this guy to even give the slightest hint that he's a little "off" in any way other than, "I was sick, I still struggle, but I've overcome it."

I'll give you that - he think he was under Landy's care during the writing and recording. So maybe just his marriage and family life was falling to bits, then.

I didn't say Brian wasn't managed, I was just saying he wasn't the dude who wrote Love You anymore. I honestly do think he's better now, and his general well-being doesn't seem so stage-managed to me? Like, every day obviously isn't a picnic, but he seems to be doing OK in spite of having a hell of a time and just a bumbling 70 year old dude with little patience for interviewers (an obvious aspect of what you describe). Maybe I'm just a sucker.

"Love You" is one of the few albums where he actually wrote his own lyrics.  He so often had collaborators, so it's one of the few pieces of work that's all his, and his personality is in it.  It's fun.  I don't find it that warped.  Sure, a lot of it is from a teen-age perspective, but then Chuck Berry was writing a lot of teen-age songs when he was in his 30s, too.  Brian always liked Chuck.  As for his marriage and family falling apart during that time, that's not quite true.  Landy forced him to spend more time with his wife and kids at that time and he was attempting to re-integrate himself into his family after being estranged from them for years, at least according to accounts and interviews at the time.  He didn't get divorced until a few years after that. 

Have you seen "Beautiful Dreamer"?

The subject of this thread is Jeff Foskett, and why people seem to dislike him.  As I said in my previous post, it was this forum that led me to believe that Foskett discourages the weirder material like Love You.