What if David Marks never leaves in 1963?

[thr33]

How would his presence affect the direction of the band both in the studio and touring?

There's probably not much of a reason for Glen Campbell and Bruce Johnston to join, since Brian would be able to remain off the touring circuit (aside from perhaps TV appearances and recordings intended for live albums). From this thread it looks like when the non-Brian lineup toured in 63, Al was on bass. Presumably Al would handle the high vocals (maybe Carl on some tracks?).

In terms of the studio, from a cursory glance David seemed a lot more interested in the psychedelic bag than did Bruce, so I wonder if having an extra voice for the creative/experimental path would have pushed the band more in that direction.

Thoughts?

[Lonely Summer]

How would his presence affect the direction of the band both in the studio and touring?

There's probably not much of a reason for Glen Campbell and Bruce Johnston to join, since Brian would be able to remain off the touring circuit (aside from perhaps TV appearances and recordings intended for live albums). From this thread it looks like when the non-Brian lineup toured in 63, Al was on bass. Presumably Al would handle the high vocals (maybe Carl on some tracks?).

In terms of the studio, from a cursory glance David seemed a lot more interested in the psychedelic bag than did Bruce, so I wonder if having an extra voice for the creative/experimental path would have pushed the band more in that direction.

Thoughts?

If David doesn't leave, does Al not return? How is David as a singer?
I think having two serious guitar players in the band would keep the guitar prominent in Beach Boys music. It seems like the guitar took a backseat around the time of Pet Sounds, and never came back, with exceptions like Bluebeards Over the Mountain, It's About Time, and All I Want to Do.

[thr33]

How would his presence affect the direction of the band both in the studio and touring?

There's probably not much of a reason for Glen Campbell and Bruce Johnston to join, since Brian would be able to remain off the touring circuit (aside from perhaps TV appearances and recordings intended for live albums). From this thread it looks like when the non-Brian lineup toured in 63, Al was on bass. Presumably Al would handle the high vocals (maybe Carl on some tracks?).

In terms of the studio, from a cursory glance David seemed a lot more interested in the psychedelic bag than did Bruce, so I wonder if having an extra voice for the creative/experimental path would have pushed the band more in that direction.

Thoughts?

If David doesn't leave, does Al not return? How is David as a singer?
I think having two serious guitar players in the band would keep the guitar prominent in Beach Boys music. It seems like the guitar took a backseat around the time of Pet Sounds, and never came back, with exceptions like Bluebeards Over the Mountain, It's About Time, and All I Want to Do.

Unless I'm mistaken, there's a period of time in 1963 during which both David and Al were in the band.

[CenturyDeprived]

I love David Marks, but yes without Dave leaving I question whether Al would have rejoined (although possibly he might have anyway, eventually)... but Al really did become a truly essential component of the vocal blend. Really quite underrated in that respect, Al almost was like the secret special sauce ingredient. So I am emotionally attached to the BBs vocal blend sound with Al, and I would hate to lose that aspect.

But... with Dave present there could certainly have been any number of other roads the band could've gone down. I do wonder if Dave and Dennis would've been double trouble, so to speak, as Dave grew older and more in a similar peer group as Dennis. In reality of course Dave quit the band when he was still a 15-year-old kid, but if he stayed in the band until he was 20+ , into the later '60s, then Dave and Dennis might have become party animals together, potentially.

 I have a hunch the two of them would eventually have aligned somewhat as a political force within the band, because it seems like Dave had that rebellious streak like Dennis. And perhaps the two of them would've gravitated towards more similar musical exploration - and it's always nice when there's somebody else in the band to back you up in that respect.

To be honest I think Dave staying does change the outcome of the band quite a bit in any number of ways. Maybe it's Dave and not Ed Carter doing those wailing licks on songs like Bluebirds, etc., and the band may have delved more deeply into the All I Want to Do type of sound.

But again I think a lot of it is contingent on if Dave staying caused more of a power dynamic shift where he and Dennis for example would have become more of a unified presence within the band. I just feel like Denny didn't really seem to have anyone in the band in terms of a musical collaborator (not talking about lyrics) other than his brother Brian occasionally who helped him out uncredited on several songs like Little Bird. Maybe Dave would've been another collaborative foil in that way. Shrug.

[Sound of Free]

One of my biggest Beach Boys "what ifs" is what if Brian decided, after the 1963 when Al subbed for him, that he was going to stop touring then and only join the band for TV shows?

Murry obviously preferred the mature, responsible Al over the young Dave, who Murry saw as a punk who would be a bad influence on Carl. Because he saw Al eager to come back in the fold, I think he probably picked fights with Dave to try to get him to quit.

If Brian had quit in 1963, maybe Murry realizes they need Dave, and Dave stays. And since Brian is not touring, maybe he never has a breakdown in 1964. The whole band trajectory and Brian's mental-health trajectory might have been different.

[WillJC]

I love David Marks, but yes without Dave leaving I question whether Al would have rejoined (although possibly he might have anyway, eventually)...

He... did. Al rejoined the band a good while before Dave left.

[RubberSoul13]

I suspect Brian would've stopped touring sooner, Bruce never would've entered the picture, and the Beach Boys would've been far more respected by the end of the 1960's as mentioned above, since David would've likely kept things more guitar oriented and bonded well with Dennis. However, one could also wonder if that would've put David in an early grave, not unlike brother Dennis.

[CenturyDeprived]

I love David Marks, but yes without Dave leaving I question whether Al would have rejoined (although possibly he might have anyway, eventually)...

He... did. Al rejoined the band a good while before Dave left.

This is true, I was getting my history discombobulated although I did know that. Still one has to wonder whether both Al and Dave would have stayed on as full-time members,  and if Brian wouldn't have been back on the road and Bruce wouldn't have joined.

[Pretty Funky]

I’ve read ‘The Lost Beach Boy’ and I think there would be the real possibility Dave and Dennis would be as destructive together as Dennis was on his own, and we all know how that turned out.

The best thing Dave did was leave IMO. It potentially saved his life given his now known health issues.

Would he have improved the music? I’ll leave that for the musicians of the board, however the quality can depend on the health of the group.

[HeyJude]

To be clear though, Al didn't really quite fully rejoin while Dave was still in the band, right? Al had been doing some session work while Dave was in the band, and then for some dates in 1963, one of the early instances of Brian missing some shows, he had Al come back to fill in for him (Brian) mainly on bass. So Al and Dave played together on tour in 1963, but at that stage Al was essentially a fill-in for Brian still. So we can't say for certain that Al would have rejoined had Dave stayed in the band, especially if Brian had come back and remained on tour. Al could have easily continued on for some time as a part-time session guy doing some bass work and vocal work.

[guitarfool2002]

I think the vocal blend would have been the biggest element to change without Al in the mix. And without Al, there would be no Help Me Rhonda 2 years after David was out.

And consider that the vocal blend was probably the most recognizable sonic hook of the band in the mid 60's,  and Al's role becomes that much more important. David's vocals were not as key as Al's, and the more complex Brian's music became, the less of a guitar band they became.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

To be clear though, Al didn't really quite fully rejoin while Dave was still in the band, right? Al had been doing some session work while Dave was in the band, and then for some dates in 1963, one of the early instances of Brian missing some shows, he had Al come back to fill in for him (Brian) mainly on bass. So Al and Dave played together on tour in 1963, but at that stage Al was essentially a fill-in for Brian still. So we can't say for certain that Al would have rejoined had Dave stayed in the band, especially if Brian had come back and remained on tour. Al could have easily continued on for some time as a part-time session guy doing some bass work and vocal work.

While Dave was still with the band, Al was playing with them live and singing and to some extent playing with them in the studio, which seems to me like pretty much fully rejoining.  It'd be awfully uncharitable to not say he was part of the band at that point.

[HeyJude]

To be clear though, Al didn't really quite fully rejoin while Dave was still in the band, right? Al had been doing some session work while Dave was in the band, and then for some dates in 1963, one of the early instances of Brian missing some shows, he had Al come back to fill in for him (Brian) mainly on bass. So Al and Dave played together on tour in 1963, but at that stage Al was essentially a fill-in for Brian still. So we can't say for certain that Al would have rejoined had Dave stayed in the band, especially if Brian had come back and remained on tour. Al could have easily continued on for some time as a part-time session guy doing some bass work and vocal work.

While Dave was still with the band, Al was playing with them live and singing and to some extent playing with them in the studio, which seems to me like pretty much fully rejoining.  It'd be awfully uncharitable to not say he was part of the band at that point.

Sure, in my mind once Al is like all over the "Surfer Girl", he's a de facto member.

But while Dave was still there, if Brian showed up, Al didn't attend, right? I don't have "Becoming the Beach Boys" at my fingertips at the moment. It seems for a very brief time he could technically be called some sort of second-string/back-up Beach Boy. If Brian was going to make the gig, I don't think they were going to rent Al a guitar and do a gig as a six-piece.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

To be clear though, Al didn't really quite fully rejoin while Dave was still in the band, right? Al had been doing some session work while Dave was in the band, and then for some dates in 1963, one of the early instances of Brian missing some shows, he had Al come back to fill in for him (Brian) mainly on bass. So Al and Dave played together on tour in 1963, but at that stage Al was essentially a fill-in for Brian still. So we can't say for certain that Al would have rejoined had Dave stayed in the band, especially if Brian had come back and remained on tour. Al could have easily continued on for some time as a part-time session guy doing some bass work and vocal work.

While Dave was still with the band, Al was playing with them live and singing and to some extent playing with them in the studio, which seems to me like pretty much fully rejoining.  It'd be awfully uncharitable to not say he was part of the band at that point.

Sure, in my mind once Al is like all over the "Surfer Girl", he's a de facto member.

But while Dave was still there, if Brian showed up, Al didn't attend, right? I don't have "Becoming the Beach Boys" at my fingertips at the moment. It seems for a very brief time he could technically be called some sort of second-string/back-up Beach Boy. If Brian was going to make the gig, I don't think they were going to rent Al a guitar and do a gig as a six-piece.

It's entirely fair to note that yes, they didn't really do a 6-piece line-up on stage.  But at what point is he less "filling in for Brian" and more "stepping down when Brian felt like playing"?  If anything, I'd call Brian the second-string member of the touring band for a few months there.

[Lonely Summer]

Why is everyone assuming David would become best buds with Dennis? Wasn't he Carl's friend?

[FreakySmiley]

Why is everyone assuming David would become best buds with Dennis? Wasn't he Carl's friend?

Probably 'cuz from what I've heard/read David liked to have (sometimes reckless) fun, much like Dennis. That being said, you make me wonder if perhaps having another close friend indulging in the rock 'n' roll lifestyle would have influenced young Carl to be a bit more loose or more of a partier (or something). One can wonder.