VDP: "victimised by Brian Wilson's buffoonery"

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Everyone's arguing and theorising from the premise that VDP was in some way excluded, made to feel unwelcome or ignored concerning the Smile box, and maybe he was. But suppose he wasn't ? 

I'm not pretending to know what happened, but leaving him out is a pretty big omission, and as others have said, he comes off a tad bitter about the whole thing so until I hear something definite, all I can do is speculate...

[?]

We can't know what happened, but something about the compiling of this set definitely ruffled VDP's feathers, and that's a damn shame because this should've been his time to shine as well as Brian.

 

Ok, how about this: since we can agree that something happened that pissed VDP off, was it something that directly pertained to him or something more general that he still found offensive?

[Cam Mott]

BWPS/Beautiful Dreamer dumps it all on Mike, now with TSS and the backlash against Mike "hating" we have an alternate scenario where VDP and Brian never got along, disliked one another's work, etc.

Point of order. You've over paraphrased but your point is not a backlash. The information that there was trouble between VDP and Brian and the sources of that trouble have always been there from eyewitnesses. Its still there, you can look it up.  Fandom has had a 4+ decades habit of ignoring that info in favor of trumping up charges against others.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

BWPS/Beautiful Dreamer dumps it all on Mike, now with TSS and the backlash against Mike "hating" we have an alternate scenario where VDP and Brian never got along, disliked one another's work, etc.

Point of order. You've over paraphrased but your point is not a backlash. The information that there was trouble between VDP and Brian and the sources of that trouble have always been there from eyewitnesses. Its still there, you can look it up.  Fandom has had a 4+ decades habit of ignoring that info in favor of trumping up charges against others.

Same goes for the "charges" against Mike. Vosse, Brian and Van confirm it. It was wrong to solely blame Mike but it's wrong now to blame VDP as well. Both happened, both were contributing factors. There were a dozen others as well.

[Rich Panteluk]

Just some speculation on my part, but I believe Van Dyke had to go to bat in a very aggressive way to help his friend Frank Holmes get his due with respect to the using and the remuneration of the Smile artwork.  Perhaps in the process his working relationship with Brian and co took a hit and he walked of his own volition.  Agd, care to tell me if I am getting warmer or colder?  :-)

[?]

I was thinking along the same lines Rich...

[Cam Mott]

BWPS/Beautiful Dreamer dumps it all on Mike, now with TSS and the backlash against Mike "hating" we have an alternate scenario where VDP and Brian never got along, disliked one another's work, etc.

Point of order. You've over paraphrased but your point is not a backlash. The information that there was trouble between VDP and Brian and the sources of that trouble have always been there from eyewitnesses. Its still there, you can look it up.  Fandom has had a 4+ decades habit of ignoring that info in favor of trumping up charges against others.

Same goes for the "charges" against Mike. Vosse, Brian and Van confirm it. It was wrong to solely blame Mike but it's wrong now to blame VDP as well. Both happened, both were contributing factors. There were a dozen others as well.

Right but fandom has taken the charges against Mike very seriously for decades while Mike and the Boys were sort of an outsider to the process. They didn't stop anything, they didn't want Brian to stop SMiLE. On the other hand, fandom still largely ignores the history between VDP and Brian, it is being pretty much ignored right now. In spite of all the so-called pendulum swinging, somehow a question from outside the process is still made much important then creative and personal issues between the two co-creators in the process.

[Jim V.]

BWPS/Beautiful Dreamer dumps it all on Mike, now with TSS and the backlash against Mike "hating" we have an alternate scenario where VDP and Brian never got along, disliked one another's work, etc.

Point of order. You've over paraphrased but your point is not a backlash. The information that there was trouble between VDP and Brian and the sources of that trouble have always been there from eyewitnesses. Its still there, you can look it up.  Fandom has had a 4+ decades habit of ignoring that info in favor of trumping up charges against others.

Same goes for the "charges" against Mike. Vosse, Brian and Van confirm it. It was wrong to solely blame Mike but it's wrong now to blame VDP as well. Both happened, both were contributing factors. There were a dozen others as well.

Right but fandom has taken the charges against Mike very seriously for decades while Mike and the Boys were sort of an outsider to the process. They didn't stop anything, they didn't want Brian to stop SMiLE. On the other hand, fandom still largely ignores the history between VDP and Brian, it is being pretty much ignored right now. In spite of all the so-called pendulum swinging, somehow a question from outside the process is still made much important then creative and personal issues between the two co-creators in the process.

Cam, while I think it's possible that Brian lost his interest in a bit of the SMiLE material, and that's why the album didn't come out in '67, I think for you to basically say that "Brian didn't like Van Dyke's lyrics" is a bit much.

I mean, even after cancelling the project, "Heroes And Villains" was still his big priority to get out there. And finally by later in the year, he did. He also recorded another version of "Surf's Up" at the piano in later '67, which I don't think he'd be doing if he were so turned off on Van Dyke's lyrics. Shoot, even by like 1973 or so there's a story of him playing a special version of "Heroes And Villains" on the piano while an interviewer was over to talk about Spring. And he called "Surf's Up" a "masterpiece" around the 15 Big Ones.

And you speak of "the history between Van Dyke and Brian", but the facts show that even after the SMiLE era was over, they were still friends. It's mentioned quite a bit that he was hanging out with people like "Van Dyke Parks and Danny Hutton" in the early to mid '70s. Theya also worked on material for Redwood (the song "Sunflower Maiden") and of course they also worked on one of The Beach Boys biggest '70s songs, "Sail On, Sailor".

I guess what I'm saying is that while the decision to can SMiLE ultimately rests with Brian, the other guys in the group did have a say. Peter Reum has spoken of group meetings about the album and whatnot. So to act like Mike and the guys had no say is disingenuous.

[Bicyclerider]

Group meetings about the fate of the SMile album are speculation, nothing more.

Brian disliking or hating Van's lyrics?  Hogwash.  Having doubts about their commerical potential?  Certainly.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Group meetings about the fate of the SMile album are speculation, nothing more.

Brian disliking or hating Van's lyrics?  Hogwash.  Having doubts about their commerical potential?  Certainly.

Exactly. It was wrong to blame Mike but the answer is not to pin it all on Van now to make it even. I think perhaps Brian felt Van's somber Americana lyrics about the destruction of the Indians were a bit heavy for a comedy album called SMiLE. But to claim they disliked each other's work entirely or fought all the time is baseless hearsay.

[Cam Mott]

Cam, while I think it's possible that Brian lost his interest in a bit of the SMiLE material, and that's why the album didn't come out in '67, I think for you to basically say that "Brian didn't like Van Dyke's lyrics" is a bit much.

I didn't say this, David Anderle and Brian said this at and near the event. So they are used as authority against the Boys et al and everything else, but they (and Siegel and Vosse) are pretty much ignored on this issue.

[Cam Mott]

Group meetings about the fate of the SMile album are speculation, nothing more.

Brian disliking or hating Van's lyrics?  Hogwash.  Having doubts about their commerical potential?  Certainly.

Exactly. It was wrong to blame Mike but the answer is not to pin it all on Van now to make it even. I think perhaps Brian felt Van's somber Americana lyrics about the destruction of the Indians were a bit heavy for a comedy album called SMiLE. But to claim they disliked each other's work entirely or fought all the time is baseless hearsay.

Who claimed that?

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Group meetings about the fate of the SMile album are speculation, nothing more.

Brian disliking or hating Van's lyrics?  Hogwash.  Having doubts about their commerical potential?  Certainly.

Exactly. It was wrong to blame Mike but the answer is not to pin it all on Van now to make it even. I think perhaps Brian felt Van's somber Americana lyrics about the destruction of the Indians were a bit heavy for a comedy album called SMiLE. But to claim they disliked each other's work entirely or fought all the time is baseless hearsay.

Who claimed that?

You.

[Cam Mott]

Group meetings about the fate of the SMile album are speculation, nothing more.

Brian disliking or hating Van's lyrics?  Hogwash.  Having doubts about their commerical potential?  Certainly.

Exactly. It was wrong to blame Mike but the answer is not to pin it all on Van now to make it even. I think perhaps Brian felt Van's somber Americana lyrics about the destruction of the Indians were a bit heavy for a comedy album called SMiLE. But to claim they disliked each other's work entirely or fought all the time is baseless hearsay.

Who claimed that?

You.

Where? First of all I never said entirely or all the time. I said just what Brian, Anderle, Siegel, and Vosse said on the subject.

[halblaineisgood]

.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Mulan: Infinite Potential to revive old smile threads fulfilled and his favorite movie is mulan.

Yeah, how dare I discuss my favorite BB album on a forum dedicated to the BBs...

[Bicyclerider]

Cam, while I think it's possible that Brian lost his interest in a bit of the SMiLE material, and that's why the album didn't come out in '67, I think for you to basically say that "Brian didn't like Van Dyke's lyrics" is a bit much.

I didn't say this, David Anderle and Brian said this at and near the event. So they are used as authority against the Boys et al and everything else, but they (and Siegel and Vosse) are pretty much ignored on this issue.

Nine of those people said Brian didn't like  or disliked Van's lyrics.  Recheck your quotes please.  You may repost them as I'm sure you have them handy.

[Bicyclerider]

That was NONE of those people, not "nine". 

[Jim V.]

Cam, while I think it's possible that Brian lost his interest in a bit of the SMiLE material, and that's why the album didn't come out in '67, I think for you to basically say that "Brian didn't like Van Dyke's lyrics" is a bit much.

I didn't say this, David Anderle and Brian said this at and near the event. So they are used as authority against the Boys et al and everything else, but they (and Siegel and Vosse) are pretty much ignored on this issue.

Didn't he also say that Mike and Brian weren't getting along and that Mike was giving Brian trouble?

[SMiLE Brian]

Even the studio sessions of the surf/car/girls hits have Brian and Mike going at each other in the studio at times.

[CenturyDeprived]

Even the studio sessions of the surf/car/girls hits have Brian and Mike going at each other in the studio at times.

Not to mention that "Cassius" Love vs. 'Sonny' Wilson" seems to me to be a humorous release valve of sorts for actual, real tension, much in the way that "I'm Bugged at My Old Man" was. It seems obvious that both pieces were BW's "lighthearted" way of addressing some stuff that caused him at least some element of truly legit stress.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Even the studio sessions of the surf/car/girls hits have Brian and Mike going at each other in the studio at times.

Not to mention that "Cassius" Love vs. 'Sonny' Wilson" seems to me to be a humorous release valve of sorts for actual, real tension, much in the way that "I'm Bugged at My Old Man" was. It seems obvious that both pieces were BW's "lighthearted" way of addressing some stuff that caused him at least some element of stress.

Do you think the psychodelic sounds skits and/or Jasper Dailey tracks served a similar purpose for SMiLE?

[Bicyclerider]

Brian certainly got frustrated with Dennis and Mike at times, it seems Carl and Al were mostly exempt or less confrontational than the other two.

[CenturyDeprived]

Even the studio sessions of the surf/car/girls hits have Brian and Mike going at each other in the studio at times.

Not to mention that "Cassius" Love vs. 'Sonny' Wilson" seems to me to be a humorous release valve of sorts for actual, real tension, much in the way that "I'm Bugged at My Old Man" was. It seems obvious that both pieces were BW's "lighthearted" way of addressing some stuff that caused him at least some element of stress.

Do you think the psychodelic sounds skits and/or Jasper Dailey tracks served a similar purpose for SMiLE?

That's an interesting thought, actually.

While I highly doubt that those "songs" were ever even remotely considered for usage on the proposed final SMiLE product... and I think that their existence can most likely be chalked up to BW's procrastination at tackling the harder SMiLE writing/assembling issues at hand, not to metnion procrastinating/avoiding personal stress with other people/circumstances (throwing together a quick random odd assemblage or two, like the skits and Dailey tracks surely helped him put off other important things)... it does, to me, seem that the procrastination itself was an attempt at a tension release valve for BW, so in that sense I could see the tracks serving a similar purpose for SMiLE, ya know?

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Even the studio sessions of the surf/car/girls hits have Brian and Mike going at each other in the studio at times.

Not to mention that "Cassius" Love vs. 'Sonny' Wilson" seems to me to be a humorous release valve of sorts for actual, real tension, much in the way that "I'm Bugged at My Old Man" was. It seems obvious that both pieces were BW's "lighthearted" way of addressing some stuff that caused him at least some element of stress.

Do you think the psychodelic sounds skits and/or Jasper Dailey tracks served a similar purpose for SMiLE?

That's an interesting thought, actually.

While I highly doubt that those "songs" were ever even remotely considered for usage on the proposed final SMiLE product... and I think that their existence can most likely be chalked up to BW's procrastination at tackling the harder SMiLE writing/assembling issues at hand, not to metnion procrastinating/avoiding personal stress with other people/circumstances (throwing together a quick random odd assemblage or two, like the skits and Dailey tracks surely helped him put off other important things)... it does, to me, seem that the procrastination itself was an attempt at a tension release valve for BW, so in that sense I could see the tracks serving a similar purpose for SMiLE, ya know?

I think it's possible one or two could've made an appearance. The Vegetable fights and George Fell perhaps being the most likely, the later would make a cool hidden track after Surf's Up. As for the JD songs, I agree that was probably just procrastinating and trying to give the studio people a laugh.