VDP: "victimised by Brian Wilson's buffoonery"

[The Shift]

Guitarfool, Andrew, appreciate you both stating this; have believed the same thing for a long time; the evidence is all over many of the session tapes. VDP' voice also seems prominent at several of those creative/purile/take-your-pick avante garde party tapes, though I wouldn't know whether he'd been inhalationing or no!

[Mike's Beard]

VDP is/was very well know and in demand within 'the biz' but would he be a comparatively well known household name without the BB connection - the answer is obviously no.

[smilethebeachboysloveyou]

VDP is/was very well know and in demand within 'the biz' but would he be a comparatively well known household name without the BB connection - the answer is obviously no.

Even with the Beach Boys connection, he isn't a household name.

[AndrewHickey]

VDP is/was very well know and in demand within 'the biz' but would he be a comparatively well known household name without the BB connection - the answer is obviously no.

Even with the Beach Boys connection, he isn't a household name.

And, again, as he said in the interview that started this thread, he actively doesn't want even the little bit of fame he does have.

[Peter Reum]

Van Dyke Parks is someone who would typify the term musician's musician. Not only is he familiar with a wide variety of music from different eras and places, but he can apply that knowledge as a session player, lyricist,  producer, or as an arranger. In this respect, he has wide renown within the  musician community. Lyrics are a matter of taste. Some people enjoy the more simple and straight forward approach, some people love humor in lyrics, others enjoy lyrics that tell a story, and so forth. If the goal is commercial sales, Van Dyke's lyrics would be appropriate if the artist already has a strong following. If the artist is a new artist just starting out, I think Van Dyke's arranging or producing talents would be more helpful. It is clear that he probably has the most diverse studio curriculum vitae  in LA, or perhaps even the US.

[guitarfool2002]

No doubt his credentials, skills, and resume is/are second to none. I do think though, and this is in no way a negative or a slight, that many of the musicians under 45 years old who would seek him out specifically for a project had probably first heard of him and his work through Smile legend. It's just one of those bigger-than-life associations you can't escape, and if the artist or personality has a hard time dealing with the association from fans, they can either come to terms with it, embrace it as an image, or risk alienating fans when you try to distance yourself from the role all those fans love you for.

I can name a few who have either spoken eloquently or had some killer one-liners about this phenomenon and their roles: Mike Nesmith as the Monkee, David Janssen as The Fugitive, and Danny Bonaduce as Danny Partridge.

I think sometimes the microcosm of fans who are music obsessives and record collectors can forget just how many people, music lovers but we'll call them "civilians", are not invested in music the way we are, and many still could not name the four members of The Who or identify a photo of a young Keith Richards. These folks are not seeking out "Song Cycle" unless someone gives them the tip.

[hypehat]

Van Dyke Parks is someone who would typify the term musician's musician. Not only is he familiar with a wide variety of music from different eras and places, but he can apply that knowledge as a session player, lyricist,  producer, or as an arranger. In this respect, he has wide renown within the  musician community. Lyrics are a matter of taste. Some people enjoy the more simple and straight forward approach, some people love humor in lyrics, others enjoy lyrics that tell a story, and so forth. If the goal is commercial sales, Van Dyke's lyrics would be appropriate if the artist already has a strong following. If the artist is a new artist just starting out, I think Van Dyke's arranging or producing talents would be more helpful. It is clear that he probably has the most diverse studio curriculum vitae  in LA, or perhaps even the US.

Peter Reum knows what's up. More than the petty fucks who are trying to say that Van Dyke would be pumping gas if it wasn't for Brian Wilson.


Hey, maybe he is The Mike Love It's OK To Like - his solo records aren't fucking garbage, for one.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Does anybody know why Van Dyke Park's wasn't more involved in the release of The Smile Sessions?  (Specifically, whether he refused to be involved or whether he was somehow excluded?)  I think the answer might have something to do with that.

I'd like an answer to this.

[CenturyDeprived]

Does anybody know why Van Dyke Park's wasn't more involved in the release of The Smile Sessions?  (Specifically, whether he refused to be involved or whether he was somehow excluded?)  I think the answer might have something to do with that.

I'd like an answer to this.

I really would too.

But I think it's one of those things that insiders have to keep hush-hush for some reason.

My theory? (Based on pure speculation and nothing more):

I'm guessing that lots of negotiations between the BBs were going on to get TSS released, as well as C50 up and running. I have to imagine there was a give-and-take type of thing where Brian's side had certain demands, as did Mike's side. You probably had a case where one side said that a particular thing had to happen for another thing to happen, etc. (I doubt that Al/Dave/Bruce would have made any huge demands).

Well, this is several years after Beautiful Dreamer, on which Brian, personally on camera, specifically called out Mike as being a major factor in SMiLE's demise. I'm sure that Mike was not happy at that in the slightest.  So I wonder if a condition of Mike's in the whole TSS release/participation and C50 was that Brian no longer mention Mike as being a factor in SMiLE's demise, and that if asked about it in interviews/the TSS liner notes, etc., that BW was to shift to solely mentioning drugs/record label pressure as being the cause(s).

And VDP, I'll bet, when he got wind of that, was very pissed about it, and what he viewed as rewriting of history (as he saw it) might have turned him off to the whole project. Right or wrong, I think VDP likely blames Mike for SMiLE's demise to some degree (maybe to a large degree).

I assume it was something of that nature... or it was somehow a squabble about money.

Just a wild guess. I could be totally 100% off-base.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Does anybody know why Van Dyke Park's wasn't more involved in the release of The Smile Sessions?  (Specifically, whether he refused to be involved or whether he was somehow excluded?)  I think the answer might have something to do with that.

I'd like an answer to this.

I really would too.

But I think it's one of those things that insiders have to keep hush-hush for some reason.

If he *was* excluded then that's a damn shame. The 2nd most important person in the legend and he gets left out of the supposedly all-inclusive boxset over petty politics? No excuse.

[CenturyDeprived]

Does anybody know why Van Dyke Park's wasn't more involved in the release of The Smile Sessions?  (Specifically, whether he refused to be involved or whether he was somehow excluded?)  I think the answer might have something to do with that.

I'd like an answer to this.

I really would too.

But I think it's one of those things that insiders have to keep hush-hush for some reason.

If he *was* excluded then that's a damn shame. The 2nd most important person in the legend and he gets left out of the supposedly all-inclusive boxset over petty politics? No excuse.

I agree. For such an important historical release, it's utterly absurd. I'm sure the true answer will come out at some point... who knows, maybe one of my theories above holds water.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Does anybody know why Van Dyke Park's wasn't more involved in the release of The Smile Sessions?  (Specifically, whether he refused to be involved or whether he was somehow excluded?)  I think the answer might have something to do with that.

I'd like an answer to this.

I really would too.

But I think it's one of those things that insiders have to keep hush-hush for some reason.

My theory? (Based on pure speculation and nothing more):

I'm guessing that lots of negotiations between the BBs were going on to get TSS released, as well as C50 up and running. I have to imagine there was a give-and-take type of thing where Brian's side had certain demands, as did Mike's side. You probably had a case where one side said that a particular thing had to happen for another thing to happen, etc. (I doubt that Al/Dave/Bruce would have made any huge demands).

Well, this is several years after Beautiful Dreamer, on which Brian, personally on camera, specifically called out Mike as being a major factor in SMiLE's demise. I'm sure that Mike was not happy at that in the slightest.  So I wonder if a condition of Mike's in the whole TSS release/participation and C50 was that Brian no longer mention Mike as being a factor in SMiLE's demise, and that if asked about it in interviews/the TSS liner notes, etc., that BW was to shift to solely mentioning drugs/record label pressure as being the cause(s).

And VDP, I'll bet, when he got wind of that, was very pissed about it, and what he viewed as rewriting of history (as he saw it) might have turned him off to the whole project.

I assume it was something of that nature... or it was somehow a squabble about money.

Just a wild guess. I could be totally 100% off-base.

I didn't want to be the one to suggest it, should I incur the wrath of Pinder and Cam, but that sounds the most likely. I hope we're wrong. I really do want to give Mike the benefit of the doubt and believe this petty personal crap would be put behind after 45 years.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Does anybody know why Van Dyke Park's wasn't more involved in the release of The Smile Sessions?  (Specifically, whether he refused to be involved or whether he was somehow excluded?)  I think the answer might have something to do with that.

I'd like an answer to this.

I really would too.

But I think it's one of those things that insiders have to keep hush-hush for some reason.

My theory? (Based on pure speculation and nothing more):

I'm guessing that lots of negotiations between the BBs were going on to get TSS released, as well as C50 up and running. I have to imagine there was a give-and-take type of thing where Brian's side had certain demands, as did Mike's side. You probably had a case where one side said that a particular thing had to happen for another thing to happen, etc. (I doubt that Al/Dave/Bruce would have made any huge demands).

Well, this is several years after Beautiful Dreamer, on which Brian, personally on camera, specifically called out Mike as being a major factor in SMiLE's demise. I'm sure that Mike was not happy at that in the slightest.  So I wonder if a condition of Mike's in the whole TSS release/participation and C50 was that Brian no longer mention Mike as being a factor in SMiLE's demise, and that if asked about it in interviews/the TSS liner notes, etc., that BW was to shift to solely mentioning drugs/record label pressure as being the cause(s).

And VDP, I'll bet, when he got wind of that, was very pissed about it, and what he viewed as rewriting of history (as he saw it) might have turned him off to the whole project. Right or wrong, I think VDP likely blames Mike for SMiLE's demise to some degree (maybe to a large degree).

I assume it was something of that nature... or it was somehow a squabble about money.

Just a wild guess. I could be totally 100% off-base.

More a plausible theory than a wild guess... and yes, 100% off base. 

[CenturyDeprived]

Does anybody know why Van Dyke Park's wasn't more involved in the release of The Smile Sessions?  (Specifically, whether he refused to be involved or whether he was somehow excluded?)  I think the answer might have something to do with that.

I'd like an answer to this.

I really would too.

But I think it's one of those things that insiders have to keep hush-hush for some reason.

My theory? (Based on pure speculation and nothing more):

I'm guessing that lots of negotiations between the BBs were going on to get TSS released, as well as C50 up and running. I have to imagine there was a give-and-take type of thing where Brian's side had certain demands, as did Mike's side. You probably had a case where one side said that a particular thing had to happen for another thing to happen, etc. (I doubt that Al/Dave/Bruce would have made any huge demands).

Well, this is several years after Beautiful Dreamer, on which Brian, personally on camera, specifically called out Mike as being a major factor in SMiLE's demise. I'm sure that Mike was not happy at that in the slightest.  So I wonder if a condition of Mike's in the whole TSS release/participation and C50 was that Brian no longer mention Mike as being a factor in SMiLE's demise, and that if asked about it in interviews/the TSS liner notes, etc., that BW was to shift to solely mentioning drugs/record label pressure as being the cause(s).

And VDP, I'll bet, when he got wind of that, was very pissed about it, and what he viewed as rewriting of history (as he saw it) might have turned him off to the whole project. Right or wrong, I think VDP likely blames Mike for SMiLE's demise to some degree (maybe to a large degree).

I assume it was something of that nature... or it was somehow a squabble about money.

Just a wild guess. I could be totally 100% off-base.

More a plausible theory than a wild guess... and yes, 100% off base. 

Good to know (seriously) 
Whatever the reason is, it's most certainly unfortunate.

[The Heartical Don]

It's nice to do some second-guessing, and to speculate. Nothing against that.

Couldn't it be that VDP just thought: I myself am finished with the Smile-saga, I said what I had to say on the subject, we did 'Presents Smile' in 2004, I have a career of my own (remember: VDP has been more active in the concert circuit in the past 5 years than perhaps ever before, and released new material in various forms also) and I'm off to new shores now?

I can't really see why he should have formally refused to contribute to the book that came with TSS for other reasons. Even if there are issues still not fully resolved - VDP is verbose enough to write a brief, friendly note that does not delve into the more sensitive topics.

But I can see that he perhaps felt the whole saga to have become quite a burden over the years, he may have found his own closure with BWPS.

For him, Smile is something from 1967 that he put a lot of work into and that did not see the light of day then. He worked on the material again in 2004. And still: countless articles and comments here and there and everywhere always used to identify him (and still do) as 'The Man Who ... (and everyone knows what follows here)'. Not so much the man who did the fantastic Jump! album, for instance.

Is my idea.

[?]

Does anybody know why Van Dyke Park's wasn't more involved in the release of The Smile Sessions?  (Specifically, whether he refused to be involved or whether he was somehow excluded?)  I think the answer might have something to do with that.

I'd like an answer to this.

I really would too.

But I think it's one of those things that insiders have to keep hush-hush for some reason.

My theory? (Based on pure speculation and nothing more):

I'm guessing that lots of negotiations between the BBs were going on to get TSS released, as well as C50 up and running. I have to imagine there was a give-and-take type of thing where Brian's side had certain demands, as did Mike's side. You probably had a case where one side said that a particular thing had to happen for another thing to happen, etc. (I doubt that Al/Dave/Bruce would have made any huge demands).

Well, this is several years after Beautiful Dreamer, on which Brian, personally on camera, specifically called out Mike as being a major factor in SMiLE's demise. I'm sure that Mike was not happy at that in the slightest.  So I wonder if a condition of Mike's in the whole TSS release/participation and C50 was that Brian no longer mention Mike as being a factor in SMiLE's demise, and that if asked about it in interviews/the TSS liner notes, etc., that BW was to shift to solely mentioning drugs/record label pressure as being the cause(s).

And VDP, I'll bet, when he got wind of that, was very pissed about it, and what he viewed as rewriting of history (as he saw it) might have turned him off to the whole project. Right or wrong, I think VDP likely blames Mike for SMiLE's demise to some degree (maybe to a large degree).

I assume it was something of that nature... or it was somehow a squabble about money.

Just a wild guess. I could be totally 100% off-base.

More a plausible theory than a wild guess... and yes, 100% off base. 

Come on, it's been nearly three years now...  Throw us a bone?   

[Andrew G. Doe]

I'll tell you in another 41 years. 

[The Shift]

It's nice to do some second-guessing, and to speculate. Nothing against that.

Couldn't it be that VDP just thought: I myself am finished with the Smile-saga, I said what I had to say on the subject, we did 'Presents Smile' in 2004, I have a career of my own (remember: VDP has been more active in the concert circuit in the past 5 years than perhaps ever before, and released new material in various forms also) and I'm off to new shores now?

I can't really see why he should have formally refused to contribute to the book that came with TSS for other reasons. Even if there are issues still not fully resolved - VDP is verbose enough to write a brief, friendly note that does not delve into the more sensitive topics.

But I can see that he perhaps felt the whole saga to have become quite a burden over the years, he may have found his own closure with BWPS.

For him, Smile is something from 1967 that he put a lot of work into and that did not see the light of day then. He worked on the material again in 2004. And still: countless articles and comments here and there and everywhere always used to identify him (and still do) as 'The Man Who ... (and everyone knows what follows here)'. Not so much the man who did the fantastic Jump! album, for instance.

Is my idea.

Add to that the fact that it must seem ironic to someone so close to the project that the BBs' decision to release TSS came only after (seven whole years after…) the acclaim BWPS received; a case of delayed bandwagon jumping, coming late to the party, dragging the horse back to the locked stable after the door's been bolted… whatever.

And to see his ol' compadre BW be a willing participant after years of saying "no no no" followed by "we finished SMiLE", to then come out with "here's another helping"?

And indeed VDP might have considered that they had done with it in '04, exorcised a demon and moved on.

This completely, deliberately, also ignores the fact that we fans are still clamoring for Brian's CITFOTM, Barnyard sans fly-ins, the Durrie Parks acetates and whatever else they can dredge from the Smile ditch, so poor ol' Van realises that it ain't over yet… which, after 48 years, understandably might well be wearying.

All speculation…




(and if we all keep guessing maybe AGD can let us know when someone hits the nail on the head, and offer some kind of prize!)

[buddhahat]

VDP seemed very positive about TSS in the build up to its release, or at least, that was my impression. I remember him describing the package as a 'faberge egg' which suggests to me that at that stage he was proud to be associated with this beautiful archival release. The negative comments seem to come after it was out.

Maybe something occurred just prior to its release. Maybe he wrote an honest recollection for the book that didn't go down to well with the others (most likely Mike, let's be honest) and it was excised from the final package, hence VDP's souring of mood? Just a thought but something clearly occurred and the omission of any major insight from VDP within the book is a glaring one to say the least. My guess is that his insights didn't sit right with one, or more, of the BBs.

Wouldn't that be ironic if he wasn't included in the book because Mike didn't like what he wrote? Would certainly explain why he suddenly seemed so bitter about the whole thing.

[Cam Mott]

VDP seemed very positive about TSS in the build up to its release, or at least, that was my impression. I remember him describing the package as a 'faberge egg' which suggests to me that at that stage he was proud to be associated with this beautiful archival release. The negative comments seem to come after it was out.

Maybe something occurred just prior to its release. Maybe he wrote an honest recollection for the book that didn't go down to well with the others (most likely Mike, let's be honest) and it was excised from the final package, hence VDP's souring of mood? Just a thought but something clearly occurred and the omission of any major insight from VDP within the book is a glaring one to say the least. My guess is that his insights didn't sit right with one, or more, of the BBs.

Wouldn't that be ironic if he wasn't included in the book because Mike didn't like what he wrote? Would certainly explain why he suddenly seemed so bitter about the whole thing.

What if it was he and Brian who had the beef between them over TSS. He did say he was Brian's victim.

[The Shift]

VDP seemed very positive about TSS in the build up to its release, or at least, that was my impression. I remember him describing the package as a 'faberge egg' which suggests to me that at that stage he was proud to be associated with this beautiful archival release. The negative comments seem to come after it was out.

Maybe something occurred just prior to its release. Maybe he wrote an honest recollection for the book that didn't go down to well with the others (most likely Mike, let's be honest) and it was excised from the final package, hence VDP's souring of mood? Just a thought but something clearly occurred and the omission of any major insight from VDP within the book is a glaring one to say the least. My guess is that his insights didn't sit right with one, or more, of the BBs.

Wouldn't that be ironic if he wasn't included in the book because Mike didn't like what he wrote? Would certainly explain why he suddenly seemed so bitter about the whole thing.

Very good point… I'd forgotten about the Fabergé egg line.  I think this argument has to have credence.

Now, let's see how AGD marks it out of 10!

[buddhahat]

VDP seemed very positive about TSS in the build up to its release, or at least, that was my impression. I remember him describing the package as a 'faberge egg' which suggests to me that at that stage he was proud to be associated with this beautiful archival release. The negative comments seem to come after it was out.

Maybe something occurred just prior to its release. Maybe he wrote an honest recollection for the book that didn't go down to well with the others (most likely Mike, let's be honest) and it was excised from the final package, hence VDP's souring of mood? Just a thought but something clearly occurred and the omission of any major insight from VDP within the book is a glaring one to say the least. My guess is that his insights didn't sit right with one, or more, of the BBs.

Wouldn't that be ironic if he wasn't included in the book because Mike didn't like what he wrote? Would certainly explain why he suddenly seemed so bitter about the whole thing.

What if it was he and Brian who had the beef between them over TSS. He did say he was Brian's victim.

Yeah maybe it was Brian's people who told him they wanted to keep things sweet with the rest of the band for C50 so the narrative of the TSS book was going to gloss over the conflict issues. I think Century Deprived made this point and it's a good one.

I see no reason why VDP couldn't contribute to the book. This omission suggests to me  that what he did write was deemed unsuitable by someone who had a degree of control over the product, namely a band member.

I have to be honest the content of the book is disappointing. There's no real depth to any of it and that's because much of the exciting drama of Smile (i.e. the conflict) is not present. I'd have to re-read it but do any of the contributors go into depth about the disagreements within the band or disagreements between the band and VDP?

Otherwise maybe it was a financial disagreement over TSS and VDP pulled his input for those reasons but I suspect the former is more likely. Financial agreements over the musical content would have presumably been well established by the time he'd made the faberge egg comment. Songwriting credits, licensing stuff would have been negotiated at the start, no? Whereas the content of the book was presumably finalised at a later stage in the proceedings? That might explain his apparent u-turn fairly late in the day.

[Cam Mott]

Maybe it doesn't address conflict within the band because there wasn't any really.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Truth is very often stranger than fiction.

[The Heartical Don]

Truth is very often stranger than fiction.

Oh, I got it. VDP did not contribute lyrics to SMiLE at all. It was all Mike's work.

The rest, the media hubbub: all smokescreens, sex, lies, videotapes, the lot.

Case closed.