VDP: "victimised by Brian Wilson's buffoonery"

[Cam Mott]

The material evidence is he dumped most of Van Dyke's lyrics. He dumped half of VDP's lyrics outright and cut lyrics from the half he kept. That is a fact. And Brian said it was because they were too arty.  I call that not being in love with them, which you may argue with the characterization, but is the material reason songs and SMiLE were dumped and Smiley emerged with less then half of SMiLE's Van Dyke lyrics.

I do argue with the characterization because it's a mischaracterization. Yes, he dumped SU, CE and DYLW. He also dumped O'Leary's Cow, Our Prayer, Old Master Painter/Sunshine, Look and other songs that VDP had nothing to do with. He wasn't simply cutting out Parks and that should be clear by what got cut and what remained. Some Parks stuff got cut along with some non-Parks stuff, just as some Parks stuff stayed and Brian was still hung up on songs by Van Dyke that were cut that year, as evidenced by the Surf's Up recording. If you are not in love with the lyrics of a writer, you don't use the songs that that writer wrote to make up over a third of your album, nor do you continue to sing his lyrics a year later.

We will continue to disagree over the evidence then.

[Bicyclerider]

Not directed at you guitarfool2002.....merely an observation about the direction this thread was sliding. Smile 66-67 is dead, long live Smile 2004 and 2011.

Peter sees the glass as half full.  I see it as half empty.  Phil doesn't see the glass at all and complains about how the glass company is never going to produce the glass.

[Heysaboda]

The "victim card" is not a pretty or sensible move for Van Dyke to make.  GEEZ

 

[hypehat]

Van Dyke probably doesn't enjoy having his work disparaged as druggy shite!

[KittyKat]

More like disparag-ed, as in past tense. It's time for Van Dyke to move on. The album got released. I'm sure he got some royalties from both BWPS and the boxed set.  He also seems to have a weird possessiveness towards Brian Wilson in terms of thinking he should be able to tell Brian whether to play with the Beach Boys or not. He's like a bitter ex-wife or something. 

[hypehat]

It becomes more than than simple royalties when people say in public that your most well known work was 'acid alliteration', or sending The Beach Boys in a 'bad direction' (see Mike Love's essay in the Smile booklet). Van Dyke would like to see that work given proper legitimacy, yet Mike would like to deny that the album is a legitimate work - he's only outwardly repped for one Smile song, Wonderful, in my experience.

Van Dyke would love to see Smile as just another entry in his CV, I guess. Last gig I saw him at, he politely greeted all the fuckwits giving him copies of Pet Sounds to sign but got really involved with two Carribean girls who said they had known and performed with The Mighty Sparrow, I think. He ended up telling them he'd like to record with them.

Then again, at the same showing the interviewer at the Q&A asked him what he would do if he saw Mike Love to which there was...... what about at a hospital? Quoth Van Dyke, 'I might pull the plug.'


He also took great  pains to play that off as a joke, btw. I reckon so long as Mike Love stops going 'Smile? Oh yeah, Brian was tripping balls on that one, although I do like one song' in a pointed manner Van Dyke would back off.

[KittyKat]

It becomes more than than simple royalties when people say in public that your most well known work was 'acid alliteration', or sending The Beach Boys in a 'bad direction' (see Mike Love's essay in the Smile booklet). Van Dyke would like to see that work given proper legitimacy, yet Mike would like to deny that the album is a legitimate work - he's only outwardly repped for one Smile song, Wonderful, in my experience.

Van Dyke would love to see Smile as just another entry in his CV, I guess. Last gig I saw him at, he politely greeted all the fuckwits giving him copies of Pet Sounds to sign but got really involved with two Carribean girls who said they had known and performed with The Mighty Sparrow, I think. He ended up telling them he'd like to record with them.

Then again, at the same showing the interviewer at the Q&A asked him what he would do if he saw Mike Love to which there was...... what about at a hospital? Quoth Van Dyke, 'I might pull the plug.'


He also took great  pains to play that off as a joke, btw. I reckon so long as Mike Love stops going 'Smile? Oh yeah, Brian was tripping balls on that one, although I do like one song' in a pointed manner Van Dyke would back off.

Van Dyke was a hired hand, not a member of the band. He should take the checks and cash them, not wish ill on members of the band that may have made him more money than any project he's ever been involved in. That's kind of warped to say that about Brian Wilson's first cousin. Mike rendered an opinion about Van Dyke's work, which he's entitled to, and has never even joked that he'd "pull the plug" if he found him in the hospital. Van has emotional problems.

[ontor pertawst]

He'd pull the plug, but I have it on good authority that he'd piss on Mike if the man somehow were to catch fire. This is a man that's sober, healthy, and good.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

It becomes more than than simple royalties when people say in public that your most well known work was 'acid alliteration', or sending The Beach Boys in a 'bad direction' (see Mike Love's essay in the Smile booklet). Van Dyke would like to see that work given proper legitimacy, yet Mike would like to deny that the album is a legitimate work - he's only outwardly repped for one Smile song, Wonderful, in my experience.

Van Dyke would love to see Smile as just another entry in his CV, I guess. Last gig I saw him at, he politely greeted all the fuckwits giving him copies of Pet Sounds to sign but got really involved with two Carribean girls who said they had known and performed with The Mighty Sparrow, I think. He ended up telling them he'd like to record with them.

Then again, at the same showing the interviewer at the Q&A asked him what he would do if he saw Mike Love to which there was...... what about at a hospital? Quoth Van Dyke, 'I might pull the plug.'


He also took great  pains to play that off as a joke, btw. I reckon so long as Mike Love stops going 'Smile? Oh yeah, Brian was tripping balls on that one, although I do like one song' in a pointed manner Van Dyke would back off.

Van Dyke was a hired hand, not a member of the band. He should take the checks and cash them, not wish ill on members of the band that may have made him more money than any project he's ever been involved in. That's kind of warped to say that about Brian Wilson's first cousin. Mike rendered an opinion about Van Dyke's work, which he's entitled to, and has never even joked that he'd "pull the plug" if he found him in the hospital. Van has emotional problems.

Most definitely. That was in poor taste.

[Shady]

Great post KittyKat

Brian took Van Dyke in. Got his name in history and he says something like this.

[Wirestone]

Nonsense. Van Dyke was well known in the business. His success is his own, and Smile didn't even become a thing until the 70s and, really, the 80s. By that time, VDP had already established a career as a recording artist, arranger, film composer and A&R man that was quite separate from his work with Brian or the Beach Boys.

Everyone involved with the BW/BB saga says regretful things. It's par for the course.

[KittyKat]

Why didn't Van Dyke contribute to the boxed set booklet? He didn't like what Mike said, but even if he didn't have an opportunity to read it before it was published, he could have figured out Mike might say something he has said before. So why not put his own two cents in? 

[MBE]

Not to enter the fray again only to get burnt but Smile was a huge deal in 1966 and 1967. I  think a good read of Look! Listen! Vibrate! Smile! proves that both the US and UK rock press had been hyping it for a good year. Not going to go further here but some things are solid fact.

[KittyKat]

The press was hyping it. That doesn't guarantee the fans would have embraced it, what few Beach Boys fans were left.  I don't agree with fans who think Smile would have been the Beach Boys' version of Sgt. Pepper's, no matter how much press hype they got. A lot of things got press hype. Also, consider that LLSV was a gathering of the clips. Spread out in those publications over a year's time, it may not have looked so massive compared to the hype garnered by the Beatles or the Doors or the Stones, or even up and comers like the Who. I'm sure Capitol records paid for a lot of that hype, yet all they managed was a sub Top 10 when they released the first single from what would have been the album.  That doesn't make it right for Van Dyke Parks to kid he'd go all Kevorkian on Mike Love.

[MBE]

The press was hyping it. That doesn't guarantee the fans would have embraced it, what few Beach Boys fans were left.  I don't agree with fans who think Smile would have been the Beach Boys' version of Sgt. Pepper's, no matter how much press hype they got. A lot of things got press hype. Also, consider that LLSV was a gathering of the clips. Spread out in those publications over a year's time, it may not have looked so massive compared to the hype garnered by the Beatles or the Doors or the Stones, or even up and comers like the Who. I'm sure Capitol records paid for a lot of that hype, yet all they managed was a sub Top 10 when they released the first single from what would have been the album.  That doesn't make it right for Van Dyke Parks to kid he'd go all Kevorkian on Mike Love.

Had it come out within a few months of "Good Vibrations" it would have killed. Heroes still did quite well putting it all in perspective.

[rn57]

Well, Uncut just put up another interview with VDP on its site, from the June issue that just hit the stands. It involves him examining his career album by album. And the albums discussed are a pretty interesting assortment because they include ones for other artists that he produced or arranged or both:

Smile
Song Cycle
Randy Newman's debut
Phil Ochs' Greatest Hits
Ry Cooder's debut
Discover America
Nilsson's Popeye soundtrack
Orange Crate Art
Joanna Newsom's Ys

His remarks on Smile don't vary too much from what he's said in other places. But his explanation, this time, of why he decided to have Brian sing OCA is one that I don't think he's mentioned before.  And for longtime VDP students there are some other quite interesting things.  He says he didn't work with Randy Newman again because of personal differences - which he explains in some detail.  He remarks that Greatest Hits is not his personal favorite among Phil Ochs' albums - and I wish the interviewer had gotten him to say which one was. (My guess is it would be Rehearsals For Retirement.)

And he repeats what he has said in a couple of other interviews - that he views Discover America as his best album.

http://www.uncut.co.uk/uncut/van-dyke-parks-album-by-album-feature

[KittyKat]

They seem to talk to Van Dyke Parks quite a bit. Is he that much better known in the UK than here? Someone posted something he said a few months ago from that magazine and he said something along the lines of that he thought Smile could be filmed, but he had no intention of working with Brian Wilson ever again, on anything.

[Jukka]

Thanks for the link, very interesting read. With all the badmouthing of VDP going on here lately, it's nice to have the man himself reminds us that he's a true artist and a gentleman.

[Cabinessenceking]

Although I cannot support VDP for saying these things about ML after all these years there i no doubt that there is bad blood between them. I can imagine VDP being frustrated as the Smile sessions ground on with Brian becoming increasingly erratic. Having Mike badger him about the lyrics on top of an already falltering project was enough to make him abandon ship.

There is no hiding it. ML is obviously a very unlikable character and many have ill opinions of him. VDP would be wise to keep his to himself however as there can be little change apart from damage to his own reputation.

[KittyKat]

Although I cannot support VDP for saying these things about ML after all these years there i no doubt that there is bad blood between them. I can imagine VDP being frustrated as the Smile sessions ground on with Brian becoming increasingly erratic. Having Mike badger him about the lyrics on top of an already falltering project was enough to make him abandon ship.

There is no hiding it. ML is obviously a very unlikable character and many have ill opinions of him. VDP would be wise to keep his to himself however as there can be little change apart from damage to his own reputation.

I do find it a little different that Van Dyke seems to assign a lot of blame to Brian now. I don't remember him doing that in the past. For instance, this interview he blames people feeding Brian drugs as much or more as Mike questioning the lyrics. Then there's the "buffoon" interview. The fact he said a couple of months ago that he has no intention of ever working with Brian again. Did he see Brian reuniting with the Beach Boys as being disloyal to him (though why he would think Brian has to answer to him, who knows), or something else, or a combination of the reunion and whatever the something else is?  Surely he must have known Brian might work with the Beach Boys again.

[?]

Thanks for the link, very interesting read. With all the badmouthing of VDP going on here lately, it's nice to have the man himself reminds us that he's a true artist and a gentleman.

My thoughts exactly.

[Nicko1234]

I do find it a little different that Van Dyke seems to assign a lot of blame to Brian now. I don't remember him doing that in the past. For instance, this interview he blames people feeding Brian drugs as much or more as Mike questioning the lyrics. Then there's the "buffoon" interview. The fact he said a couple of months ago that he has no intention of ever working with Brian again. Did he see Brian reuniting with the Beach Boys as being disloyal to him (though why he would think Brian has to answer to him, who knows), or something else, or a combination of the reunion and whatever the something else is?  Surely he must have known Brian might work with the Beach Boys again.

VDP has been saying he left because of the the drug use (amongst other things) for quite some time now. But I do agree that his attitude seems to have evolved a little recently.

[smilethebeachboysloveyou]

I do find it a little different that Van Dyke seems to assign a lot of blame to Brian now. I don't remember him doing that in the past. For instance, this interview he blames people feeding Brian drugs as much or more as Mike questioning the lyrics. Then there's the "buffoon" interview. The fact he said a couple of months ago that he has no intention of ever working with Brian again. Did he see Brian reuniting with the Beach Boys as being disloyal to him (though why he would think Brian has to answer to him, who knows), or something else, or a combination of the reunion and whatever the something else is?  Surely he must have known Brian might work with the Beach Boys again.

I think you're right about this.  VDP reappeared in the Beach Boys' saga several times after Smile failed to happen, by allegedly helping them get their contract with Warners, by his vocal appearance on "A Day in the Life of a Tree," by suggesting "Surf's Up" for the album of the same name and "Sail On, Sailor" for Holland, and even by his accordion on several songs that Brian had nothing to do with on Still Cruisin' and Summer in Paradise.  He has certainly been critical of Mike Love in the past, but this criticism of Brian (and apparent refusal to work with him again) is much newer and I suspect has roots in something that happened more recently.  Does anybody know why Van Dyke Park's wasn't more involved in the release of The Smile Sessions?  (Specifically, whether he refused to be involved or whether he was somehow excluded?)  I think the answer might have something to do with that.

[Smilin Ed H]

"Van Dyke was well known in the business. His success is his own, and Smile didn't even become a thing until the 70s and, really, the 80s."

VDP, in the Uncut piece, rather contradicts this view himself.

[AndrewHickey]

"Van Dyke was well known in the business. His success is his own, and Smile didn't even become a thing until the 70s and, really, the 80s."

VDP, in the Uncut piece, rather contradicts this view himself.

He does, reading it. Which is very odd, because he was working with Lenny Waronker before he ever met Brian Wilson. So either Wirestone and I are wrong, VDP is remembering wrong, or (most likely) It's More Complicated Than That and, for example, Waronker had been trying to get Parks signed to Warners for a while but working with Brian was the last extra bit of pressure he needed.

Either way, though, I have absolutely no doubt that, given that Parks was so close to Waronker, his career would have gone more or less the same way whether or not he worked with Brian.