VDP: "victimised by Brian Wilson's buffoonery"

[Sound of Free]

On a related point, who wrote the lyrics to Wind Chimes, Brian or Van Dyke? The credit originally was to Brian only and I don't think it was changed until BWPS cam out, and it was Wilson/Parks. It was also that way on the box set.

When I saw Brian's solo credit and the fact that the words didn't sound like any of Van Dyke's other lyrics on the project, I always figured Brian wrote them.

Parks claims Wind Chimes but disavows He Gives Speeches. I think it's the other way around.

I agree with that. Lyrics about writing a satire sounds like Van Dyke's style.

A guy staring at wind chimes (while almost certainly stoned) and not being able to look away sounds more like the guy who wanted to open the all-night telescope store. 

[Cam Mott]

On a related point, who wrote the lyrics to Wind Chimes, Brian or Van Dyke? The credit originally was to Brian only and I don't think it was changed until BWPS cam out, and it was Wilson/Parks. It was also that way on the box set.

When I saw Brian's solo credit and the fact that the words didn't sound like any of Van Dyke's other lyrics on the project, I always figured Brian wrote them.

Whoops. Wrong post.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

On a related point, who wrote the lyrics to Wind Chimes, Brian or Van Dyke? The credit originally was to Brian only and I don't think it was changed until BWPS cam out, and it was Wilson/Parks. It was also that way on the box set.

When I saw Brian's solo credit and the fact that the words didn't sound like any of Van Dyke's other lyrics on the project, I always figured Brian wrote them.

"he changed up what could work for him and dumped the rest for something different"

?

[Cam Mott]

There may be many reasons but in my opinion the only real problem was Brian fell out of love with what VDP gave him and the plans he had for the tracks and album didn't work anymore and he changed up what could work for him and dumped the rest for something different.

If that's true then what explains the presence of Heroes and Villains, Vegetables, She's Goin' Bald, and Wind Chimes on the next album. If Brian really didn't like what VDP gave him anymore, why record an album in which over a third of the material was co-written with Parks?

"he changed up what could work for him and dumped the rest for something different"

[Bicyclerider]

I honestly feel that there cannot be and will never be one main reason behind any of this, and if we start assigning such a label to any of what we know of Smile, it will simply not be accurate. I thought the Smile fan and research community in general had accepted that and moved beyond that some time ago, where the series of events taken as a whole need to be factored in far more than one finger of blame or responsibility, because it wasn't that easy to package.

So why in 2013 is the issue of assigning blame in any way coming up in light of everything else?

Because of Van Dyke's interview saying he was "victimized" by Brian.  Van Dyke is not blameless in the collapse of Smile and he knows it.  He just needs to own it.

[Peter Reum]

You know, there are now two ways to  enjoy Smile. You can listen to the 2004 version, part of which won a Grammy, or you can listen to the Smile Sessions that won a Grammy. I am sure that some Beach boy fan who is also a statistician will do a multiple regression correlation study that attempt to weight the variance for Smile 66-67's demise. Personally, I'd rather listen to the music. The horse that is the blame for the 1966-67 Smile has been dead for a long time.

[Tilt Araiza]

On a related point, who wrote the lyrics to Wind Chimes, Brian or Van Dyke? The credit originally was to Brian only and I don't think it was changed until BWPS cam out, and it was Wilson/Parks. It was also that way on the box set.

When I saw Brian's solo credit and the fact that the words didn't sound like any of Van Dyke's other lyrics on the project, I always figured Brian wrote them.

I wish I could remember where I read it, but it was in the 90s so it was probably in Beach Boys Australia or Beach Boys Stomp, but someone says something about confirming that Van Dyke "helped" with the lyrics of Wind Chimes, my inference being that the lyrics we have are VDP's rewrite of Brian's lyrics.  I'm sorry, I know that leaves a ton of [citation needed] and isn't within a hundred miles of conclusive, but I thought it was worth a mention.  If anyone can nail the source that'd be great.

[guitarfool2002]

You know, there are now two ways to  enjoy Smile. You can listen to the 2004 version, part of which won a Grammy, or you can listen to the Smile Sessions that won a Grammy. I am sure that some Beach boy fan who is also a statistician will do a multiple regression correlation study that attempt to weight the variance for Smile 66-67's demise. Personally, I'd rather listen to the music. The horse that is the blame for the 1966-67 Smile has been dead for a long time.

Who or what is this being directed to? If it's something I wrote,  just let me know so I know how to respond in kind.

[Peter Reum]

Not directed at you guitarfool2002.....merely an observation about the direction this thread was sliding. Smile 66-67 is dead, long live Smile 2004 and 2011.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

There may be many reasons but in my opinion the only real problem was Brian fell out of love with what VDP gave him and the plans he had for the tracks and album didn't work anymore and he changed up what could work for him and dumped the rest for something different.

If that's true then what explains the presence of Heroes and Villains, Vegetables, She's Goin' Bald, and Wind Chimes on the next album. If Brian really didn't like what VDP gave him anymore, why record an album in which over a third of the material was co-written with Parks?

"he changed up what could work for him and dumped the rest for something different"

He changed the Van Dyke parts the least though. In fact on Vegetables and Wind Chimes the one constant in both versions appears to be Van Dyke's lyrics.

[guitarfool2002]

Not directed at you guitarfool2002.....merely an observation about the direction this thread was sliding. Smile 66-67 is dead, long live Smile 2004 and 2011.

I agree with that!     I just wanted to ask, in case I had to dust off and post my old favorites like Mr. T, Doug Henning, or the Lionel Richie clay bust in reply (long lost references to previous forums' shenanigans...) 

It's actually been too long since I've given Smile 2004 a full listen with fresh ears, I think it's due for a re-evaluation.

[bgas]

Not directed at you guitarfool2002.....merely an observation about the direction this thread was sliding. Smile 66-67 is dead, long live Smile 2004 and 2011.

I agree with that!     I just wanted to ask, in case I had to dust off and post my old favorites like Mr. T, Doug Henning, or the Lionel Richie clay bust in reply (long lost references to previous forums' shenanigans...) 

It's actually been too long since I've given Smile 2004 a full listen with fresh ears, I think it's due for a re-evaluation.

Having heard them both, is there a consensus on which would be better to listen to first ( I've listened to  neither , yet) 

[Cam Mott]

There may be many reasons but in my opinion the only real problem was Brian fell out of love with what VDP gave him and the plans he had for the tracks and album didn't work anymore and he changed up what could work for him and dumped the rest for something different.

If that's true then what explains the presence of Heroes and Villains, Vegetables, She's Goin' Bald, and Wind Chimes on the next album. If Brian really didn't like what VDP gave him anymore, why record an album in which over a third of the material was co-written with Parks?

"he changed up what could work for him and dumped the rest for something different"

He changed the Van Dyke parts the least though. In fact on Vegetables and Wind Chimes the one constant in both versions appears to be Van Dyke's lyrics.

Both the least Van Dykey songs imo and the even less Van Dykey version of Vegetables. H&V deVanDkyed by 25% or so. SGB no Van Dyke [according to VDP]. Wonderful survived without cut to the lyric. No CE, DYLW, SU, at all.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

There may be many reasons but in my opinion the only real problem was Brian fell out of love with what VDP gave him and the plans he had for the tracks and album didn't work anymore and he changed up what could work for him and dumped the rest for something different.

If that's true then what explains the presence of Heroes and Villains, Vegetables, She's Goin' Bald, and Wind Chimes on the next album. If Brian really didn't like what VDP gave him anymore, why record an album in which over a third of the material was co-written with Parks?

"he changed up what could work for him and dumped the rest for something different"

He changed the Van Dyke parts the least though. In fact on Vegetables and Wind Chimes the one constant in both versions appears to be Van Dyke's lyrics.

Both the least Van Dykey songs imo and the even less Van Dykey version of Vegetables. H&V deVanDkyed by 25% or so. SGB no Van Dyke [according to VDP]. Wonderful survived without cut to the lyric. No CE, DYLW, SU, at all.

Even if SGB is not Van Dyke's lyric, he does claim Wind Chimes which I didn't count, putting us back to where we were, if we're taking Van Dyke's word for it. Again, those lyrics remain intact. To say H&V is "deVanDkyed" by 25% is misleading I think. All the lyrics Van Dyke wrote for the song seem to be there, except for Cantina, which I don't think constitutes 25% and even that part was written after the initial writing for the song anyway. Whether or not you think the songs are "Van Dykey" or not, Brian still used them and again kept the Smiley Smile project full of songs co-written by Van Dyke Parks. Furthermore, Brian was still singing songs like Surf's Up which didn't make Smiley only a few months later during the Wild Honey sessions. I think it is a very, very difficult claim to make given all we have that Brian had fallen out of love with the material. Ten years later, Brian was calling Van Dyke his favourite co-writer...

[Cam Mott]

There may be many reasons but in my opinion the only real problem was Brian fell out of love with what VDP gave him and the plans he had for the tracks and album didn't work anymore and he changed up what could work for him and dumped the rest for something different.

If that's true then what explains the presence of Heroes and Villains, Vegetables, She's Goin' Bald, and Wind Chimes on the next album. If Brian really didn't like what VDP gave him anymore, why record an album in which over a third of the material was co-written with Parks?

"he changed up what could work for him and dumped the rest for something different"

He changed the Van Dyke parts the least though. In fact on Vegetables and Wind Chimes the one constant in both versions appears to be Van Dyke's lyrics.

Both the least Van Dykey songs imo and the even less Van Dykey version of Vegetables. H&V deVanDkyed by 25% or so. SGB no Van Dyke [according to VDP]. Wonderful survived without cut to the lyric. No CE, DYLW, SU, at all.

Even if SGB is not Van Dyke's lyric, he does claim Wind Chimes which I didn't count, putting us back to where we were, if we're taking Van Dyke's word for it. Again, those lyrics remain intact. To say H&V is "deVanDkyed" by 25% is misleading I think. All the lyrics Van Dyke wrote for the song seem to be there, except for Cantina, which I don't think constitutes 25% and even that part was written after the initial writing for the song anyway. Whether or not you think the songs are "Van Dykey" or not, Brian still used them and again kept the Smiley Smile project full of songs co-written by Van Dyke Parks. Furthermore, Brian was still singing songs like Surf's Up which didn't make Smiley only a few months later during the Wild Honey sessions. I think it is a very, very difficult claim to make given all we have that Brian had fallen out of love with the material. Ten years later, Brian was calling Van Dyke his favourite co-writer...

So you claim that Brian was so into Van Dyke's lyrics that he did not significantly deVanDyke SMiLE for Smiley?

You're right H&V was deVanDyked by 20%.

[bossaroo]

nobody ever really mentions the speed and the effect it had on Brian over time. I think it was far more detrimental than LSD or pot/hash.

as far as I know, it was Van's drug of choice and he introduced Brian to it. It sounds like it really helped Brian focus initially and they got a lot of work done right away... but what was the effect of amphetamines on Brian after 6 months? nearly the opposite of "focused" i would say.

as for whether or not Van helped write any music, he himself has stated that he did not. he has taken credit for random things like the cellos playing triplets on Good Vibrations, would he really deny writing any SMiLE music? nah.

this statement from Van is surprising, as he's never really said anything like it in the previous 45 years or so since SMiLE fell apart. he singled out Brian, completely unprovoked, in rather unflattering terms.

I would certainly label a lot of Brian's activities during the SMiLE period as buffoonery. I just wonder why Van Dyke hasn't really done it until now.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I'm saying the end of Smile and the emergence of Smiley Smile had nothing to do with Brian falling out of love with what Van Dyke gave him, and I think the material evidence we have supports that.

[Cam Mott]

I'm saying the end of Smile and the emergence of Smiley Smile had nothing to do with Brian falling out of love with what Van Dyke gave him, and I think the material evidence we have supports that.

OK. I disagree.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I'm saying the end of Smile and the emergence of Smiley Smile had nothing to do with Brian falling out of love with what Van Dyke gave him, and I think the material evidence we have supports that.

OK. I disagree.

Disagree with what? You can't disagree with the material evidence since that's a matter of fact.

[Cam Mott]

I'm saying the end of Smile and the emergence of Smiley Smile had nothing to do with Brian falling out of love with what Van Dyke gave him, and I think the material evidence we have supports that.

OK. I disagree.

Disagree with what? You can't disagree with the material evidence since that's a matter of fact.

The material evidence is he dumped most of Van Dyke's lyrics. He dumped half of VDP's lyrics outright and cut lyrics from the half he kept. That is a fact. And Brian said it was because they were too arty.  I call that not being in love with them, which you may argue with the characterization, but is the material reason songs and SMiLE were dumped and Smiley emerged with less then half of SMiLE's Van Dyke lyrics.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

The material evidence is he dumped most of Van Dyke's lyrics. He dumped half of VDP's lyrics outright and cut lyrics from the half he kept. That is a fact. And Brian said it was because they were too arty.  I call that not being in love with them, which you may argue with the characterization, but is the material reason songs and SMiLE were dumped and Smiley emerged with less then half of SMiLE's Van Dyke lyrics.

I do argue with the characterization because it's a mischaracterization. Yes, he dumped SU, CE and DYLW. He also dumped O'Leary's Cow, Our Prayer, Old Master Painter/Sunshine, Look and other songs that VDP had nothing to do with. He wasn't simply cutting out Parks and that should be clear by what got cut and what remained. Some Parks stuff got cut along with some non-Parks stuff, just as some Parks stuff stayed and Brian was still hung up on songs by Van Dyke that were cut that year, as evidenced by the Surf's Up recording. If you are not in love with the lyrics of a writer, you don't use the songs that that writer wrote to make up over a third of your album, nor do you continue to sing his lyrics a year later.

[zachrwolfe]

‍

[Mike's Beard]

You know, there are now two ways to  enjoy Smile. You can listen to the 2004 version, part of which won a Grammy, or you can listen to the Smile Sessions that won a Grammy. I am sure that some Beach boy fan who is also a statistician will do a multiple regression correlation study that attempt to weight the variance for Smile 66-67's demise. Personally, I'd rather listen to the music. The horse that is the blame for the 1966-67 Smile has been dead for a long time.

It should be a dead horse issue but one only needs to take a look at pretty much any youtube video from the era and read the comments and it's clear a vast section of posters still carry the David Leaf partyline on why Smile collasped.

[KittyKat]

Didn't Van Dyke still blame Mike Love, and his hatred of drugs, as of late 2011? That's according to his post on his website (the one that offended Mike Eder, in which he referred to Mike Eder as an "author," quote marks from VDP). He said something along the lines that Mike Love blamed drugs for making Smile for what it was, and that Mike Love should chill out and not judge and realize that ML's favorite authors wrote a lot of their best work while high on drugs, citing Poe and Dickens. So, Van Dyke was not only still blaming Mike Love, but defending his and Brian's use of drugs while making "Smile."

Of course, I could be wrong, because I can't really decipher what the heck he's saying.

Van Dyke's post:

http://bananastan.com/notes_1.html

[ash]

Thanks, I hadn't read Van Dyke's post re the reunion and Smile box for a while.
Has anyone tried singing "It's an anecdotal height of personal neutrality in an ethical dilemma" over the backing track for the Child Is Father Of The Man middle 8 ?