How infamous was Murry in his own lifetime?

[CenturyDeprived]

Was the full extent of his personality and abuse a publicly-known issue? Or were people who personally knew him among the only people who were aware?

I suppose the same question might apply to Joe Jackson... although in his lifetime, the internet was invented, and virtually no one is unaware of his questionable parenting skills.

[Rocky]

mmmm it's an interesting thought. We know that by 1976 the Boys were comfortable talking about some of their troubles with Murray in the 'Good Vibrations' TV special, but was there word on the street before that? I'm sure there are some very smart smiley smilers here who can shed more light...

[Andrew G. Doe]

The 1971 Rolling Stone 2-parter by Tom Nolan opened that particular can of worms. And, ah, several others.

[Magic Transistor Radio]

Interesting question! I was born in 1977, so I have always wondered how much the general public was aware of back then that is common knowledge today!

[Komera]

There's at least one radio interview on YouTube (I've got it bookmarked, but I can't tell which bookmark it is since most of the bookmarks in Interview>Brian were labeled things like "Brian Wilson Interview <insert year here>").  I believe it was in the 70s.  When the subject of Murry came up,  I noticed Brian's very thorough answers suddenly became, "He... well... you know."  He was making it sound like Murry was just like any other parent: a pop on the bottom when the kids were really asking for it and the rest of the time everything was picture perfect.  But if you already know Murry was heavy handed, Brian's "... well... you know." sounds quite a bit more like a detour sign.

[Junkstar]

Chuck Britz is quoted in the Murry Wikipedia entry speaking favorably of Murry. Kind of what any of us would expect, that he was a driving force and helped keep the trains running. You have to remember that Murry had a string of singles released pre-BB's that he wrote. He had a bit of industry knowledge and likely used it as best he could to get the guys off the ground. Brian also cites Murry as a talented songwriter, although that may be a bit of a stretch in the grand scheme of things.

[Smilin Ed H]

Was the full extent of his personality and abuse a publicly-known issue? Or were people who personally knew him among the only people who were aware?

I suppose the same question might apply to Joe Jackson... although in his lifetime, the internet was invented, and virtually no one is unaware of his questionable parenting skills.

Leave me out of it!

[Smile4ever]

This is a very interesting question! I can't contribute but look forward to hearing more insight.

[Emily]

Was the full extent of his personality and abuse a publicly-known issue? Or were people who personally knew him among the only people who were aware?

I suppose the same question might apply to Joe Jackson... although in his lifetime, the internet was invented, and virtually no one is unaware of his questionable parenting skills.

Leave me out of it!

Yeah, seriously. Joe Jackson doesn't even have kids. Who do you think you are questioning his hypothetical parenting skills?

[Lee Marshall]

Was the full extent of his personality and abuse a publicly-known issue? Or were people who personally knew him among the only people who were aware?

I suppose the same question might apply to Joe Jackson... although in his lifetime, the internet was invented, and virtually no one is unaware of his questionable parenting skills.

Leave me out of it!

Yeah, seriously. Joe Jackson doesn't even have kids. Who do you think you are questioning his hypothetical parenting skills?

You, of course, aren't serious Emily?  Different Joe...or am I just missing YOUR boat?  'I'm Bugged at My Old Man' gave me a heads up as soon as I heard it.  I mean THAT was a very UNUSUAL song to record and release back then.  And the Beach Boys doing it?  Way, WAY odd.  I mean like hello!!!!  And then there's 'In My Room'.  Why would a young, talented musical genius like Brian Wilson feel compelled to write that song using those lyrics?  It was scary.  He wasn't a 5 or 6 year old any longer.  It was ODDDDDD.

There was something rotten in Denmark and Brian made it obvious to anyone who was paying attention back in 1963/64.  I can't figure out how Murry didn't sit up and take notice that his 'fathering skills' were being held up to the light.  We're having fun, Fun, FUN but when the lights go out I'm crapping my drawers?  Ya, Ya Ya...Yeah!!!!

[Smilin Ed H]

Was the full extent of his personality and abuse a publicly-known issue? Or were people who personally knew him among the only people who were aware?

I suppose the same question might apply to Joe Jackson... although in his lifetime, the internet was invented, and virtually no one is unaware of his questionable parenting skills.

Leave me out of it!

Yeah, seriously. Joe Jackson doesn't even have kids. Who do you think you are questioning his hypothetical parenting skills?

You, of course, aren't serious Emily?  Different Joe...or am I just missing YOUR boat?  'I'm Bugged at My Old Man' gave me a heads up as soon as I heard it.  I mean THAT was a very UNUSUAL song to record and release back then.  And the Beach Boys doing it?  Way, WAY odd.  I mean like hello!!!!  And then there's 'In My Room'.  Why would a young, talented musical genius like Brian Wilson feel compelled to write that song using those lyrics?  It was scary.  He wasn't a 5 or 6 year old any longer.  It was ODDDDDD.

There was something rotten in Denmark and Brian made it obvious to anyone who was paying attention back in 1963/64.  I can't figure out how Murry didn't sit up and take notice that his 'fathering skills' were being held up to the light.  We're having fun, Fun, FUN but when the lights go out I'm crapping my drawers?  Ya, Ya Ya...Yeah!!!!

Jest foolin'.

[Lee Marshall]

Ya...I KNOW you were Ed...But Emily?  I'm not so sure???  Joe King rules.

[Emily]

Was the full extent of his personality and abuse a publicly-known issue? Or were people who personally knew him among the only people who were aware?

I suppose the same question might apply to Joe Jackson... although in his lifetime, the internet was invented, and virtually no one is unaware of his questionable parenting skills.

Leave me out of it!

Yeah, seriously. Joe Jackson doesn't even have kids. Who do you think you are questioning his hypothetical parenting skills?

You, of course, aren't serious Emily?  Different Joe...or am I just missing YOUR boat?  'I'm Bugged at My Old Man' gave me a heads up as soon as I heard it.  I mean THAT was a very UNUSUAL song to record and release back then.  And the Beach Boys doing it?  Way, WAY odd.  I mean like hello!!!!  And then there's 'In My Room'.  Why would a young, talented musical genius like Brian Wilson feel compelled to write that song using those lyrics?  It was scary.  He wasn't a 5 or 6 year old any longer.  It was ODDDDDD.

There was something rotten in Denmark and Brian made it obvious to anyone who was paying attention back in 1963/64.  I can't figure out how Murry didn't sit up and take notice that his 'fathering skills' were being held up to the light.  We're having fun, Fun, FUN but when the lights go out I'm crapping my drawers?  Ya, Ya Ya...Yeah!!!!

I was completely kidding. I was making an obviously completely failed reference to Joe Jackson the slightly punky new wave jazz musician whom I believe is childless.
I am among the many who are baffled why so many people give Murry Wilson a pass because, "hey, would we have Surfin' USA without him?" I am completely comfortable passing a negative judgment on Murry Wilson's parenting.
Edited to add: perhaps I would've been more successful if I left the photo of Joe Jackson in the post, but I thought that I'd be taking up too much space if I did that.

[chaki]

the Gaines book claims that dudes at Capitol hated dealing with him and The Marks' really hated his guts.

[Debbie KL]

Was the full extent of his personality and abuse a publicly-known issue? Or were people who personally knew him among the only people who were aware?

I suppose the same question might apply to Joe Jackson... although in his lifetime, the internet was invented, and virtually no one is unaware of his questionable parenting skills.

Leave me out of it!

Yeah, seriously. Joe Jackson doesn't even have kids. Who do you think you are questioning his hypothetical parenting skills?

You, of course, aren't serious Emily?  Different Joe...or am I just missing YOUR boat?  'I'm Bugged at My Old Man' gave me a heads up as soon as I heard it.  I mean THAT was a very UNUSUAL song to record and release back then.  And the Beach Boys doing it?  Way, WAY odd.  I mean like hello!!!!  And then there's 'In My Room'.  Why would a young, talented musical genius like Brian Wilson feel compelled to write that song using those lyrics?  It was scary.  He wasn't a 5 or 6 year old any longer.  It was ODDDDDD.

There was something rotten in Denmark and Brian made it obvious to anyone who was paying attention back in 1963/64.  I can't figure out how Murry didn't sit up and take notice that his 'fathering skills' were being held up to the light.  We're having fun, Fun, FUN but when the lights go out I'm crapping my drawers?  Ya, Ya Ya...Yeah!!!!

I was completely kidding. I was making an obviously completely failed reference to Joe Jackson the slightly punky new wave jazz musician whom I believe is childless.
I am among the many who are baffled why so many people give Murry Wilson a pass because, "hey, would we have Surfin' USA without him?" I am completely comfortable passing a negative judgment on Murry Wilson's parenting.
Edited to add: perhaps I would've been more successful if I left the photo of Joe Jackson in the post, but I thought that I'd be taking up too much space if I did that.

Emily - I got the joke - you're clearly not a fool!  But I guess it's good that it's been clarified...

The only thing I would say about Murry is that corporal punishment was far more acceptable when the Wilsons were raised, so not much would have been done about the abuse, sadly.  How tragic for Audree and the kids.  His behavior wasn't that unusual, sadly.

[Lee Marshall]

Glad to see you know that there are 2 Joe's Emily.  Thought so but I just wanted to check 'cause we don't really know each other.  A    might have helped.  

Debbie...yes that was a style for parenting back in the day [and I while do believe that kids HAVE to know that there are real consequences for their actions because, ultimately, THAT is life] but there is a difference between a spanking and being 'tenderized' like pieces of meat.  And there's a difference between a no nonsense parent and a flat out crazed bully who was quite clearly extremely sick.

Wasn't there a story in one of the Jon Stebbins books about 'someone' maybe from across the road threatening Murry with a little of his own 'medicine' if he didn't cease and desist from pounding on the boys?

[Emily]

Glad to see you know that there are 2 Joe's Emily.  Thought so but I just wanted to check 'cause we don't really know each other.  A    might have helped.  

Debbie...yes that was a style for parenting back in the day [and I while do believe that kids HAVE to know that there are real consequences for their actions because, ultimately, THAT is life] but there is a difference between a spanking and being 'tenderized' like pieces of meat.  And there's a difference between a no nonsense parent and a flat out crazed bully who was quite clearly extremely sick.

Wasn't there a story in one of the Jon Stebbins books about 'someone' maybe from across the road threatening Murry with a little of his own 'medicine' if he didn't cease and desist from pounding on the boys?

I'm an experienced message board reader but a fairly inexperienced poster. I have much to learn about how to make what I write read the way I intend it to sound and yes, maybe I should make emojis my friends.

[Emily]

Was the full extent of his personality and abuse a publicly-known issue? Or were people who personally knew him among the only people who were aware?

I suppose the same question might apply to Joe Jackson... although in his lifetime, the internet was invented, and virtually no one is unaware of his questionable parenting skills.

Leave me out of it!

Yeah, seriously. Joe Jackson doesn't even have kids. Who do you think you are questioning his hypothetical parenting skills?

You, of course, aren't serious Emily?  Different Joe...or am I just missing YOUR boat?  'I'm Bugged at My Old Man' gave me a heads up as soon as I heard it.  I mean THAT was a very UNUSUAL song to record and release back then.  And the Beach Boys doing it?  Way, WAY odd.  I mean like hello!!!!  And then there's 'In My Room'.  Why would a young, talented musical genius like Brian Wilson feel compelled to write that song using those lyrics?  It was scary.  He wasn't a 5 or 6 year old any longer.  It was ODDDDDD.

There was something rotten in Denmark and Brian made it obvious to anyone who was paying attention back in 1963/64.  I can't figure out how Murry didn't sit up and take notice that his 'fathering skills' were being held up to the light.  We're having fun, Fun, FUN but when the lights go out I'm crapping my drawers?  Ya, Ya Ya...Yeah!!!!

I was completely kidding. I was making an obviously completely failed reference to Joe Jackson the slightly punky new wave jazz musician whom I believe is childless.
I am among the many who are baffled why so many people give Murry Wilson a pass because, "hey, would we have Surfin' USA without him?" I am completely comfortable passing a negative judgment on Murry Wilson's parenting.
Edited to add: perhaps I would've been more successful if I left the photo of Joe Jackson in the post, but I thought that I'd be taking up too much space if I did that.

Emily - I got the joke - you're clearly not a fool!  But I guess it's good that it's been clarified...

The only thing I would say about Murry is that corporal punishment was far more acceptable when the Wilsons were raised, so not much would have been done about the abuse, sadly.  How tragic for Audree and the kids.  His behavior wasn't that unusual, sadly.

:-) thanks Debbie. I guess I need to be clearer upfront.
Regarding Murry, I get that spanking was more accepted, but some of the stories of Murry Wilson are beyond the pale. before that 1965 letter he wrote to Brian was available, I found some of the reported Murry stories hard to believe, but i'd believe almost anything is possible from someone narcissistic, aggressive, egocentric and manipulative enough to write that letter.
I know I should try to see the good in everyone but I really find it hard in this case. Particularly the Wilson brothers all seem (though, honestly, how would I know? I know nothing really) to have lacked effective psychological defense mechanisms. They just seemed to have been really vulnerable and it seems like their father should've been helping them build confidence instead of constantly tearing it down.

[Lee Marshall]

From several of your previous posts here...you struck me as a sensitive and sensible person.  That has been confirmed.

[Emily]

From several of your previous posts here...you struck me as a sensitive and sensible person.  That has been confirmed.

If that was addressed to me, thank you. I'm flattered.

[Andrew G. Doe]

The only thing I would say about Murry is that corporal punishment was far more acceptable when the Wilsons were raised, so not much would have been done about the abuse, sadly.  How tragic for Audree and the kids.  His behavior wasn't that unusual, sadly.

Bad as Murry was - and he was an abusive father, even by the standards of the day - by all accounts his father was far, far worse.

[37!ws]

Murry, Joe Jackson, Bud Cowsill...makes me wonder where it ends...

[Mike's Beard]

Murry, Joe Jackson, Bud Cowsill...makes me wonder where it ends...

Joe Jackson seemed to be the worst of a bad bunch, that guy had no redeeming qualities whatsoever.

[PhilSpectre]

The only thing I would say about Murry is that corporal punishment was far more acceptable when the Wilsons were raised, so not much would have been done about the abuse, sadly.  How tragic for Audree and the kids.  His behavior wasn't that unusual, sadly.

Bad as Murry was - and he was an abusive father, even by the standards of the day - by all accounts his father was far, far worse.

Which would explain a great deal. Personally, armed with only my Beach Boy 'book learning' and personal life experience to draw on, I've come to think that Murry (like his nephew Mike Love) actually did a lot of good early in the group's career and generally meant well for his boys, but he was his own worst enemy in terms of many of his personal interactions and just had the knack of coming off like a jerk to other people, especially family, no matter how benevolent his intentions.

This is probably at least in part because, if his dad (Buddy Wilson IIRC) wasn't a proper role model, little wonder Murry didn't make a good one. It's often the fierce disciplinarian traits that get passed onto sons who have kids from abusive fathers. It's no excuse for Murry's apparently unpleasant behaviour to his sons, but as an adult, one can see that the guy was probably emotionally crippled and scared inside of losing control of his family, and had a crap idea of how to be a father because his dad was a crap father, and probably back it goes through generations ...

[Emily]

I guess we perceive the situation differently. It happens.