BWPS: How much input did Brian have?

[MichaelPapelian]

The mistake I made when I had Durrie Parks ear for fifteen minutes, was not offering to buy all the tapes and acetates lock, stock and barrel from her.
 

[SMiLEY]

I have no idea about the Durrie acetate situation.  Sorry.

Could you ask about their status? Alan probably knows. While you're at it -- what's up with the Oppenheimer stuff? Status report, please.

As to the SMiLE box -- people should remember that there is an ongoing lawsuit between BRI and Brian that needs settling before they can even talk about that incredibly touchy subject. My guess -- it will be many years before we will see it. I'd love to be wrong, though.

[Old Rake]

Guys: remember, the Beach Boys Central website is launching soon. I think if they've managed to compromise on THAT, a lot of the bitter feud stuff has probably been if not worked out, then at least hatchets laid down. I bet we see Smile or some variation on that on the new site.

[Bill Tobelman]

Peter Reum siad;

I see what The Beach Boys told Brian on December 7 or 8, 1966 as being framed in the overall discussion of the band's next album, and Brian's movement vision. It appears that Brian heard this as them saying "we don't trust your instincts commercially, Brian." After several gold albums and top ten singles, this must have sounded like a vote of no confidece to Brian. The lyrics were an issue, but the bigger issue was "do we become an fm album band, or do we keep making am single hits a our focus?"

There is also the Tracy Thomas article on page 30 of LLVS in which Brian mentions that the album will include "Good Vibrations," "Heroes & Villains," and 10 other tracks. This article seems to be from around late October, 1966. Could it be that Brian had pressure on him, even then, to make a conventional 12 track LP?

That may explain Brian's hang up about addressing SMiLE in 2004. Maybe he associates the idea of an album with a compromising of his original vision of a 3 movement piece. When Darian suggested they put together a SMiLE suitable for a live performance the old album based constraints were lifted.

[endofposts]

I don't get the obsession with the acetates.   It's nice to have more stuff, but can you really say that's what would have wound up on the final any more than what's on the other outtakes?   I don't think the fact they wound up as acetates makes it necessarily more likely that's what the final would have been.  Plus, no, I doubt they would be in good shape.  It would have more value if the master tapes they were cut from could be located, otherwise it would be scratchy listening.  It's also not fair that people have bothered Durrie Parks about this.  She owes Brian Wilson fans absolutely nothing.  It's to her credit that she hasn't sought a secondary alimony by selling them off.  Plus, we have no idea what the circumstances were in her divorce.  It might be a painful thing for her.

I think the fact that Brian drove to an emergency room during the making of BWPS speaks for itself.  I don't blame him at all for not wanting a Smile boxed set.  If Brian doesn't want it, it's good enough for me.  No matter what his reasons are, and I don't think BRI and lawsuits are the reasons. 

[HeyJude]

I don't get the obsession with the acetates.   It's nice to have more stuff, but can you really say that's what would have wound up on the final any more than what's on the other outtakes?   I don't think the fact they wound up as acetates makes it necessarily more likely that's what the final would have been.  Plus, no, I doubt they would be in good shape.  It would have more value if the master tapes they were cut from could be located, otherwise it would be scratchy listening.  It's also not fair that people have bothered Durrie Parks about this.  She owes Brian Wilson fans absolutely nothing.  It's to her credit that she hasn't sought a secondary alimony by selling them off.  Plus, we have no idea what the circumstances were in her divorce.  It might be a painful thing for her.

I think the fact that Brian drove to an emergency room during the making of BWPS speaks for itself.  I don't blame him at all for not wanting a Smile boxed set.  If Brian doesn't want it, it's good enough for me.  No matter what his reasons are, and I don't think BRI and lawsuits are the reasons. 

Frankly, I'm kind of surprised by the lack of interest some fans seem to have in vintage "Smile" material. Just as it serves no purpose to place the 2004 BWPS in the context of what the 66/67 recordings "could have been", I also don't see any point in placing the original recordings in the context of what the 2004 BWPS ended up being. In other words, I don't care whether the original recordings reflect what might have been released back then or what ended up being released in 2004.

My interest in the original "Smile" recordings has nothing to do with a "finished" album. It has to do with the fact that there is a huge cache of recordings made in 1966-67 by Brian Wilson and the Beach Boys during their creative peak, and a lot of this material has never been released or even bootlegged. To suggest that it's all just unfinished outtakes ignores the history of the Beach Boys, in which often times great stuff went unreleased. It also ignores the simple historical significance of the recordings.

As for the acetates, they *may* contain material not on any tapes in the archives. The acetates are likely historically important. Again, it doesn't matter whether the acetates reflect what could or would have been actually released. It's about Brian/BB recordings (and in some cases, actual compositions or variations of compositions) that we haven't heard.

Also, while the acetates most likely would not sound pristine, nobody knows for sure. Acetates properly stored and rarely played back then could still sound pretty good. Listen to the "Love Me Do" outtake on the Beatles "Anthology 1". That's an acetate from 1962, and it sounds like it could have come from a tape.

Somebody else mentioned the possibility of a "Smile" boxed set being one of the things offered on the upcoming beachboyscentral.com website, but I would think that while most archival BB material does have relatively limited appeal worth offering via the internet, a "Smile" set would be easy to launch as a mainstream release through Capitol.

It was always assumed by many that Brian was blocking a "Smile" archival release over the years because the whole subject was too sensitive. Given that he has now recorded a new version of the album and performed it probably 50-75 times in 2004-2005, I don't think the old excuse holds much water. It seems to me, and I'm just speculating, that assuming Brian is the only one holding such a release up (I've seen no evidence that the other BB's are opposed to such a release; at most, I would think the other BB's would want some input along the lines of Mike Love's booklet essay in the PS Sessions set), his unwillingness to go along with such a release has nothing to do with legalities and everything to do with the typical group politics.

Given what has gone down in the last few years, I still think a "Smile" boxed set of some sort is likely in the next few years. Maybe Capitol and their crack anniversary marketing team will motivate Brian to allow a 40th Anniversary "Smile" release.

[Cam Mott]

Chuck, I have conducted well over 400 interviews myself, and have another 400 archived. Some of them are unpublished due to senstive personal connections between people. I have several that were done with Carl and Dennis before they died that are unpublished. If I outlive some of thse people, perhaps someday they can be published. But in spite of all that, lots of the signs are there in what HAS been said or published through the years.

That said, I still learn new things every month, and Peter Carlin's book has some great new material in it.

Peter, since you mentioned it publically, could you please site and quote your source for the December vote or do you mean you are projecting the idea of it from "signs" in published interviews?  Thanks.

Am also enjoying CAT so far.

[Rocker]

I don't get the obsession with the acetates.   It's nice to have more stuff, but can you really say that's what would have wound up on the final any more than what's on the other outtakes?   I don't think the fact they wound up as acetates makes it necessarily more likely that's what the final would have been.  Plus, no, I doubt they would be in good shape.  It would have more value if the master tapes they were cut from could be located, otherwise it would be scratchy listening.  It's also not fair that people have bothered Durrie Parks about this.  She owes Brian Wilson fans absolutely nothing.  It's to her credit that she hasn't sought a secondary alimony by selling them off.  Plus, we have no idea what the circumstances were in her divorce.  It might be a painful thing for her.

I think the fact that Brian drove to an emergency room during the making of BWPS speaks for itself.  I don't blame him at all for not wanting a Smile boxed set.  If Brian doesn't want it, it's good enough for me.  No matter what his reasons are, and I don't think BRI and lawsuits are the reasons. 

Frankly, I'm kind of surprised by the lack of interest some fans seem to have in vintage "Smile" material. Just as it serves no purpose to place the 2004 BWPS in the context of what the 66/67 recordings "could have been", I also don't see any point in placing the original recordings in the context of what the 2004 BWPS ended up being. In other words, I don't care whether the original recordings reflect what might have been released back then or what ended up being released in 2004.

My interest in the original "Smile" recordings has nothing to do with a "finished" album. It has to do with the fact that there is a huge cache of recordings made in 1966-67 by Brian Wilson and the Beach Boys during their creative peak, and a lot of this material has never been released or even bootlegged. To suggest that it's all just unfinished outtakes ignores the history of the Beach Boys, in which often times great stuff went unreleased. It also ignores the simple historical significance of the recordings.

As for the acetates, they *may* contain material not on any tapes in the archives. The acetates are likely historically important. Again, it doesn't matter whether the acetates reflect what could or would have been actually released. It's about Brian/BB recordings (and in some cases, actual compositions or variations of compositions) that we haven't heard.

Also, while the acetates most likely would not sound pristine, nobody knows for sure. Acetates properly stored and rarely played back then could still sound pretty good. Listen to the "Love Me Do" outtake on the Beatles "Anthology 1". That's an acetate from 1962, and it sounds like it could have come from a tape.

I agree. Those acetates may contain some music not heard on any boots. Nobody will say that they were to be on the original album and therefor BWPS isn't finished (though this might be another discussion). It's all for historical matters. It's like someone finds a whole chapter for "Faust" by Goethe (which imo has some similarities historical-wise to "Smile") not used in the finished work.

[Old Rake]

What everyone is saying. Totally agree.

I don't get the obsession with the acetates.   It's nice to have more stuff, but can you really say that's what would have wound up on the final any more than what's on the other outtakes?

Doesn't matter. They're recordings. They are, therefore, of historical importance, and should be preserved. Even if they're acetates of Brian farting into a microphone, the very fact that they exist as recordings means they should be preserved. End of story, full stop.

[Charles LePage @ ComicList]

They're recordings. They are, therefore, of historical importance, and should be preserved. Even if they're acetates of Brian farting into a microphone, the very fact that they exist as recordings means they should be preserved. End of story, full stop.

I agree, maybe up to the farts.

Surely contacting Durrie Parks can't be a very hard thing to do?  Someone in the know must have some way of reaching out to her?

[mike slattery]

as far as I know Durrie Parks is quite easy to find re: the film school she teaches at..?  is that right ..?  I remember finding her quite easily on the net a couple of years back

[Old Rake]

Arizona Film Society.

[MichaelPapelian]

I found her E-mail so I'll drop her a line to see what's up.  Hope she or VDP respond.

By the way, having had the opportunity in the past to listen to material thought to be lost or erased; I can assure that it is a great rush listening to it.

[endofposts]

Okay, whatever.  I'm sure Van Dyke and Durrie are thrilled to be continually bugged by Smile fanatics.  It's almost like some value recordings more than their fellow human beings, including those that created the recordings and those associated with them.  I don't get the sense of entitlement people have about having access to anything and everything Brian Wilson recorded.  Not that I don't own boots.  But it was thieves that made it possible.

Plus, you still are never going to know what Brian's real intentions were with Smile.  You just won't.  There is a distinct possiblity that Brian never knew where he was going with it, even if he had the idea of movements in mind (and it's not really conventional movements in a vocal work with distinct songs).  Your guess is probably as good as his.

[picassosson]

Okay, whatever.  I'm sure Van Dyke and Durrie are thrilled to be continually bugged by Smile fanatics.  It's almost like some value recordings more than their fellow human beings, including those that created the recordings and those associated with them.  I don't get the sense of entitlement people have about having access to anything and everything Brian Wilson recorded.  Not that I don't own boots.  But it was thieves that made it possible.

Plus, you still are never going to know what Brian's real intentions were with Smile.  You just won't.  There is a distinct possiblity that Brian never knew where he was going with it, even if he had the idea of movements in mind (and it's not really conventional movements in a vocal work with distinct songs).  Your guess is probably as good as his.

I second this sentiment.  It sounds like this thread is turning into an instruction manual on how to stalk Durrie Parks.  Leave the poor woman alone.

[Charles LePage @ ComicList]

I don't think Durrie being asked twice in 6 years about Smile acetates constitutes bugging her.  But I could be wrong.

I suspect if Van Dyke, or Durrie, doesn't want to talk about Smile acetates or Smile anything, they won't.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Never hurts to ask.

[MichaelPapelian]

Fine.  I won't bother the woman.

Somehow, I get the feeling she will end up on Antique Roadshow asking if this box of tapes and acetates is worth anything?

[picassosson]

Fine.  I won't bother the woman.

Somehow, I get the feeling she will end up on Antique Roadshow asking if this box of tapes and acetates is worth anything?

I'm sorry,  maybe I was a little harsh.  Was just my gut reaction.

[SMiLEY]

Okay, whatever.  I'm sure Van Dyke and Durrie are thrilled to be continually bugged by Smile fanatics.  It's almost like some value recordings more than their fellow human beings, including those that created the recordings and those associated with them.  I don't get the sense of entitlement people have about having access to anything and everything Brian Wilson recorded.  Not that I don't own boots.  But it was thieves that made it possible.

Plus, you still are never going to know what Brian's real intentions were with Smile.  You just won't.  There is a distinct possiblity that Brian never knew where he was going with it, even if he had the idea of movements in mind (and it's not really conventional movements in a vocal work with distinct songs).  Your guess is probably as good as his.

I second this sentiment.  It sounds like this thread is turning into an instruction manual on how to stalk Durrie Parks.  Leave the poor woman alone.

Oh please! Sending someone an email is not stalking.

And for the chance to hear the first version of Heroes & Villains I think I could justify more than just emailing someone. I might approve of a (shudder!) letter being written and, yes, sending it to her. Failing that, I'd countenance a full-on ringing of her doorbell, despite the risks and legal quagmire  that might ensue. Oh, yes! I'd do all this and more!! Mwaa ha ha ha!!!

There's empty tape boxes in the BB vaults -- the only place one might hope to hear what was on them would be the acetates! Of course, all I want is for them to land where they belong -- in the vault, transferred to digiital or analogue (I don't give a flying f**k which!) and compiled for the box set so I can smoke a joint and listen to them. Is that so wrong-a?

I would hope Alan & Co. might already be on this case. I know I would be.

[HeyJude]

Okay, whatever.  I'm sure Van Dyke and Durrie are thrilled to be continually bugged by Smile fanatics.  It's almost like some value recordings more than their fellow human beings, including those that created the recordings and those associated with them.  I don't get the sense of entitlement people have about having access to anything and everything Brian Wilson recorded.  Not that I don't own boots.  But it was thieves that made it possible.

Plus, you still are never going to know what Brian's real intentions were with Smile.  You just won't.  There is a distinct possiblity that Brian never knew where he was going with it, even if he had the idea of movements in mind (and it's not really conventional movements in a vocal work with distinct songs).  Your guess is probably as good as his.

Okay, a few things:

1. Trying to contact somebody once via e-mail or even phone/snail mail to inquire about the possible existence of archival recordings is not stalking, or even overtly bothersome, assuming the correspondence is polite and formal. The recipient of this correspondence could consider it as bothersome, in which case they can ignore it or answer by stating that they don't wish to be contacted.

In fact, I'm not even 100% sure that somebody who takes home an acetate technically owns the thing. I'm sure an argument could be made that the acetate was cut at the studio and the studio and/or artist and/or record company owns the acetate and it was only being borrowed by somebody working on the project (VDP in this case) for reference purposes. So it may be that somebody could conceivably make contact about these acetates to point out that they should be returned to the rightful owners. I don't know about this, maybe whoever ends up with it owns it. Beatles acetates pop up for auction all the time, so I doubt anybody would try to take acetates away from the Parks or anybody else.

2. Regarding the statement that "It's almost like some value recordings more than their fellow human beings", I think this is obviously a bit of hyperbole. Some fans are interested in what  happened to the acetates, and a few are apparently tossing around the idea of e-mailing somebody who may have access to the acetates. This means that people value the recordings more than fellow human beings? I don't follow that one.

3. Those who are interested in the acetates are not by default "Smile" fanatics simply because they're interested in the acetates and even, gasp, would like to see the acetates properly archived.

4. I don't see any sense of entitlement from fans about the recordings, at least in this thread. Heck, I don't even see anybody stating they have to hear the acetates themselves! We all would of course! But most who are interested in saving the acetates are probably interested from an historical perspective. Unless a "Smile" boxed set is release, the very fans who are trying to save the acetates will likely never even get to hear the acetates even if they are recovered!

5. Regarding the actates and what Brian's intentions were with "Smile", let me repeat as I mentioned in my previous post: The acetates are important all on their own! It has nothing to do with what Brian intended to do regarding finishing the album, or what Brian did years later.

I don't understand the apparent argument that we shouldn't bother with the acetates because "Brian never knew where he was going" with the album or because when it comes to a finished album "Your guess is probably as good as his." This reasoning doesn't address the actual issue. People don't want to hear the acetates solely to try to prove some harebrained theory about what they believe the finished album would have been! They want to preserve any archival recordings because they are BW/BB recordings! Frankly, it doesn't even have anything to do specifically with "Smile." The fact that they are "Smile" recordings only lends more interest to the thing for some fans. But for me, it would be just as important to preserve acetates with on-the-fly mixes that aren't in the tape archives for "Please Let Me Wonder" or "Wild Honey" or "This Whole World", etc.

Brian or the BB's or anybody else involved with "Smile" don't owe the fans anything. But I don't buy into the idea that fans with a strong interest in history should be painted as trying to abuse the artists or something simply because the fans want to help preserve some archival recordings. Does anybody really think VDP or Brian are crying themselves to sleep at night because fans want a "Smile" boxed set, even after BWPS was released? I wouldn't have even asked this question in past years when it seemed Brian might well freak out over the subject. But given his eventual enthusiasm over "Smile", I don't think fans should ever again feel any guilt for wanting to hear the original "Smile" recordings for fear that Brian will freak out over it.

We can take the whole thing in the other direction and paint an extreme scenario such as: Imagine watching the new updated A&E Brian Wilson Biography in 2015 or so. They get to the segment on "Smile", and discuss the amazing recently uncovered photographs of "Smile" acetates. We see the labels, many marked "final mix", maybe there's one in there marked "He Gives Speeches - Final Mix for b-side", and maybe there's a test pressing in there somewhere marked "Dumb Angel - Final Compilation" or something. I'm making this all up of course, and I'm not even trying to match the acetates up time-wise with what they could or would have actually been. The point is, I can imagine the narrator stating "unfortunately, the photographs that only recently turned up were taken years before the acetates were lost." Again, all made up, and rather hyperbolic to boot. The point is, we wouldn't want to hear some BB historian saying "if so-and-so had just been contacted and reminded about the acetates, we might have been able to save the acetates, but historians were afraid to be bothersome."

Beyond all of this, I don't think any fans even need to contact anybody regarding the acetates. I would imagine Alan Boyd and his crew have already or will inquire and do everything they can do find out about the acetates. Wasn't there some story where they fairly recently went through Al Jardine's stack of old junk in his studio to see if there were any interesting acetates or other items?

[jazzfascist]

Why not try one of those dating sites, as a means of getting close to Durrie. "Looking for a woman with Smile acetates". Well if you're that desperate and you never know, you might get lucky   .

Søren

[Old Rake]

Plus:

Plus, you still are never going to know what Brian's real intentions were with Smile.  You just won't.

Why do you keep assuming this is why any of us care? I could give two figs about that.

I'm glad you're not in charge of, say, preserving historical documents at the Smithsonian. You'd turn on the heater, crack open the glass and let the kids play with 'em -- why not? You'll never know the founding fathers' true intentions by looking at old documents!

[endofposts]

Well, if you want to bug Durrie Parks, go right ahead.  See what happens.   Or wait for a Smile boxed set of every single take put down.  Even if Brian ever agreed to that, which he probably won't, wouldn't it be just a limited selection of them, as the PS boxed set it?  Then, you'd still be disappointed.  Having every single take of every single thing that Brian ever did is just not going to happen, particularly as official releases (not to mention the fact that many tapes are just plain missing).  There just aren't that many people out there that care that much.   Look how well the Hawthorne set sold, which probably has caused some other discussed releases not to happen.  Whether the new Web site is going to change things remains to be seen, in terms of releasing studio stuff, not just live recordings. 

Plus:

Plus, you still are never going to know what Brian's real intentions were with Smile.  You just won't.

Why do you keep assuming this is why any of us care? I could give two figs about that.

I'm glad you're not in charge of, say, preserving historical documents at the Smithsonian. You'd turn on the heater, crack open the glass and let the kids play with 'em -- why not? You'll never know the founding fathers' true intentions by looking at old documents!

[HeyJude]

Well, if you want to bug Durrie Parks, go right ahead.  See what happens.   Or wait for a Smile boxed set of every single take put down.  Even if Brian ever agreed to that, which he probably won't, wouldn't it be just a limited selection of them, as the PS boxed set it?  Then, you'd still be disappointed.  Having every single take of every single thing that Brian ever did is just not going to happen, particularly as official releases (not to mention the fact that many tapes are just plain missing).  There just aren't that many people out there that care that much.   Look how well the Hawthorne set sold, which probably has caused some other discussed releases not to happen.  Whether the new Web site is going to change things remains to be seen, in terms of releasing studio stuff, not just live recordings. 

I still don't understand this reasoning for not bothering with the acetates. First, it was:

Fans wanting to preserve "Smile" acetates = Fans who are only interested in using said acetates to "finish" the album the way Brian should have

Now, it has morphed into:

Fans wanting to preserve "Smile" acetates = Fans who are only interested in hearing and seeing released every bit of "Smile" sessions ever recorded

Let me repeat again: While fans would love every bit of "Smile" sessions to be released, and many fans actually do enjoy piecing together their own "Smile" lineups (but aren't delusional enough to believe what they're doing reflects what actually would or could have been released; they just do it for fun), these facts have nothing to do with preserving some potentially important "Smile" acetates! I repeat: The fans want to see the acetates preserved for historical purposes! End of story. It has nothing to do with what the finished album could have been. It has nothing to do with wanting to see a "Smile" boxed set or wanting to see every second of sessions released. As I mentioned before, it doesn't even have anything to do with wanting to neccesarily hear the acetates. As my previous post indicated, the very fans trying to look into saving the acetates may well never get to hear the acetates *even if* a "Smile" boxed set of some sort gets released.

So far, the only reason for not pursuing the acetates that makes the slightest bit of basic, logical sense is to not bug the person or people who might have the acetates. I don't agree that one e-mail for instance is particularly instrusive. But what doesn't make any sense is to not pursue the acetates because we don't know what the final lineup would have been, or because even an in-depth boxed set may not contain the acetates. These reasons have nothing to do with the acetates at all.