This is how the human race will destroy itself:

[SMiLE Brian]

This is turning into a very productive thread....

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

A failing you and he both share. Modern atheists... 

who ever said I was an Atheist? certainly not me

[Mendota Heights]

rockandroll does know what he's talking about, unlike the libertarian crew here. But then you all love big business - TRBB, for example, thinks the 1964 Civil Rights Act should be repealed because it gives minorities a legal recourse against business owners who discriminate against them. Oh no, poor business.

We are for both small and big businesses.

You are right, it should be repealed. A free society is based on individuals and voluntary contracts. If a black person refuses to sell a white person milk, so what? Buy your milk some place else. It is time we legalize the freedom to choose. Aren't you pro-choice?

[Mike's Beard]

There is a seaside cafe in the town where I live, run by black people who apparently refuse to serve whites. A complaint was put into the police and their responce was to shrug their shoulders and suggest to 'let it go'. Hmmmmm, I wonder what would happen if a white owned establishment refused to serve a black person based on the colour of their skin.....

[Jason]

rockandroll does know what he's talking about, unlike the libertarian crew here. But then you all love big business - TRBB, for example, thinks the 1964 Civil Rights Act should be repealed because it gives minorities a legal recourse against business owners who discriminate against them. Oh no, poor business.

I know it might be a bit much to ask (statists don't really read, do they?), but if you're going to claim to know my position you might actually take it upon yourself to know my position before claiming such. My position on repeating the Civil Rights Act of 1964 is based on the fact that private property owners (just like everyone else) have the right to freedom of association. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 forces people to go against their own judgment in a situation (denying employment or service for whatever reason) that does not result in a victim.

I know you guys in Britain love living under John Bull's tyranny, but please remember that not everyone is as brainwashed.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

rockandroll does know what he's talking about, unlike the libertarian crew here. But then you all love big business - TRBB, for example, thinks the 1964 Civil Rights Act should be repealed because it gives minorities a legal recourse against business owners who discriminate against them. Oh no, poor business.

We are for both small and big businesses.

You are right, it should be repealed. A free society is based on individuals and voluntary contracts. If a black person refuses to sell a white person milk, so what? Buy your milk some place else. It is time we legalize the freedom to choose. Aren't you pro-choice?

You're simply advocating for the freedom of businesses to do what they want at the expense of the population who see their choices severely limited in the process. The civil rights movement didn't happen because a black person was refused service at one establishment and your characterization as such is a really shameful portrayal of life for minorities in the 1960s. Recall that opposition to Civil Rights had absolutely nothing to do with "freedom to choose" since those who most ardently opposed it did nothing to oppose segregation laws that seemingly constrained liberty and freedom as well. It has been long acknowledged that the Civil Rights Act worked to redress what was and continues to be systemic oppression - it worked to make the system a little less unequal than it would have been without intervention.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

You never know, you might learn something

I appreciate the recommendation but I am in the middle of writing my dissertation right now so, while I do reward myself occasionally with some fiction, I am afraid that most of my theoretical reading will be restricted to the dissertation for at least the next year.

That being said, I really don't see the value of this kind of posturing. To me, it is a bit disgraceful to use one's scholarly knowledge as a way to demean others. It is kind of like the difference between the kids who took karate and used their training for self-defense and the kids who used it to intimidate other kids. Scholarly knowledge should not be used as a means of intimidation and it's a little bit precious to see someone who complains about authority to be not only appealing to authority as often as you do but also using your own knowledge as a way to turn yourself into an authority.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

And now I would like to urge both myself and others on this thread to stop being derailed by this nonsense and concentrate on the article, since it actually has a great deal of importance.

[Alex]

Hawwww hawwww hawwwwww

It is a long article, but someone should at least read the damn thing

I've read it. I'm just a sucker for stupid Mike Love jokes who prefers ignorant bliss. I'm just one guy, the whole Wall Street/Corporate America wielding tremendous influence over officials who are supposed to represent "the people" rather than just the upper/elite/bourgeois class, at least in it's current incarnation, started before I was born (I was 4 when Bush Sr. took office). I was only 8 or 9 when NAFTA was passed.  I finally filled myself in on a lot of the political stuff that went down in the 90s (NAFTA, Glass-Steagall repeal, WTO, etc.) when I was around 18-19, while also following current events. Eventually it got to a point where always reading about war, torture, corruption, Wall Street assholes, etc. got me depressed. Reading this article didn't really shock me in any way. As I've already mentioned, the bankers have been ripping off society since before I was ever brought into this world. f*** if I know what to do about it except go on living my life and trying to make a living in our modern day hyper-capitalistic society. It's the system we have to deal with right now, for better or for worse. I've never given up my lefty/progressive/pinko leanings, but I have no freaking clue as to what the answers are.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

rockandroll does know what he's talking about, unlike the libertarian crew here. But then you all love big business - TRBB, for example, thinks the 1964 Civil Rights Act should be repealed because it gives minorities a legal recourse against business owners who discriminate against them. Oh no, poor business.

I know it might be a bit much to ask (statists don't really read, do they?), but if you're going to claim to know my position you might actually take it upon yourself to know my position before claiming such. My position on repeating the Civil Rights Act of 1964 is based on the fact that private property owners (just like everyone else) have the right to freedom of association. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 forces people to go against their own judgment in a situation (denying employment or service for whatever reason) that does not result in a victim.

I know you guys in Britain love living under John Bull's tyranny, but please remember that not everyone is as brainwashed.

"Statists don't really read"?

Hilarious thing to say on a post dedicated to a lengthy article put up by a supposed "statist" .....

[Bean Bag]

I wonder if any the anti-free markets folks here -- who feel like big business makes you buy their stuff -- would also tell me "I'm free to not buy MIC box" when I moan about the re-re-re-re-release of 1/2 the stuff on it.

I just wonder...

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I wonder if any the anti-free markets folks here -- who feel like big business makes you buy their stuff -- would also tell me "I'm free to not buy MIC box" when I moan about the re-re-re-re-release of 1/2 the stuff on it.

I just wonder...

How hard is it to see the difference between business, free market, free trade, etc etc, and the corporate stranglehold on government and the ill effects related to such upon a vast majority of the population? ...... It's like saying, "I wonder how many anti-tidal wave people who think the ocean makes them go to the beach complain about me going to a local swimming pool which is just a re-release of water from the ocean".... Doesn't make sense.

Taking issue with "the way things are" is not being anti-free market! I'm not anti anything that works, operates well, but when something is broke: fixing it is better than just accepting it as is......broken

[drbeachboy]

I wonder if any the anti-free markets folks here -- who feel like big business makes you buy their stuff -- would also tell me "I'm free to not buy MIC box" when I moan about the re-re-re-re-release of 1/2 the stuff on it.

I just wonder...

How hard is it to see the difference between business, free market, free trade, etc etc, and the corporate stranglehold on government and the ill effects related to such upon a vast majority of the population? ...... It's like saying, "I wonder how many anti-tidal wave people who think the ocean makes them go to the beach complain about me going to a local swimming pool which is just a re-release of water from the ocean".... Doesn't make sense.

Taking issue with "the way things are" is not being anti-free market! I'm not anti anything that works, operates well, but when something is broke: fixing it is better than just accepting it as is......broken

Agree! Many on both sides fail to understand that concept.

[Bean Bag]

No, no, no... I totally understand the concept and see the difference.  Like a hawk!! 

How hard is it to see the difference between business, free market, free trade, etc etc, and the corporate stranglehold on government

I don't want to split hairs... but the "corporate stranglehold on government" comment is probably where we disagree.  It's crony-capitalism that exists.  You make it seem like Big Evil Corporations are the giant squid, strangling honest G-men.

[Mahalo]

It's crony-capitalism that exists.  You make it seem like Big Evil Corporations are the giant squid, strangling honest G-men.

EXACTLY!! This is why it is important to think twice about how we spend our cash, IMO. It's the quickest, easiest way to send a signal, IMO.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

It's crony-capitalism that exists.  You make it seem like Big Evil Corporations are the giant squid, strangling honest G-men.

EXACTLY!! This is why it is important to think twice about how we spend our cash, IMO. It's the quickest, easiest way to send a signal, IMO.

I never said anything about honest G-Men, nor am I some lover of the Government, but we need to face up to where A LOT of the problem lies with what's broken.... And we are splitting hairs. What you guys call crony-capitalism, I call corporate control of government. Not much difference at all. At least not enough to put any of us on the far right or left of the issue.

And Mahlo,as you've pointed out, yes, we have all the power in the world to topple this problem.....

[Dunderhead]

You never know, you might learn something

I appreciate the recommendation but I am in the middle of writing my dissertation right now so, while I do reward myself occasionally with some fiction, I am afraid that most of my theoretical reading will be restricted to the dissertation for at least the next year.

That being said, I really don't see the value of this kind of posturing. To me, it is a bit disgraceful to use one's scholarly knowledge as a way to demean others. It is kind of like the difference between the kids who took karate and used their training for self-defense and the kids who used it to intimidate other kids. Scholarly knowledge should not be used as a means of intimidation and it's a little bit precious to see someone who complains about authority to be not only appealing to authority as often as you do but also using your own knowledge as a way to turn yourself into an authority.

You should read Aesthetic Education Of Man

[Chocolate Shake Man]

You never know, you might learn something

I appreciate the recommendation but I am in the middle of writing my dissertation right now so, while I do reward myself occasionally with some fiction, I am afraid that most of my theoretical reading will be restricted to the dissertation for at least the next year.

That being said, I really don't see the value of this kind of posturing. To me, it is a bit disgraceful to use one's scholarly knowledge as a way to demean others. It is kind of like the difference between the kids who took karate and used their training for self-defense and the kids who used it to intimidate other kids. Scholarly knowledge should not be used as a means of intimidation and it's a little bit precious to see someone who complains about authority to be not only appealing to authority as often as you do but also using your own knowledge as a way to turn yourself into an authority.

You should read Aesthetic Education Of Man

 

[Dunderhead]

You'll love it I promise

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I believe you.

[Dunderhead]

And Meister, read Meister too

[Bean Bag]

And we are splitting hairs. What you guys call crony-capitalism, I call corporate control of government. Not much difference at all. At least not enough to put any of us on the far right or left of the issue.

If government inserts itself into something -- corruption will occur, where there wasn't -- or it will increase ten-fold where it was.

The companies making the right contributions to the right politicians, get "research" dollars, favorable legislation, etc.  The ones that don't -- get audited.  Just looking at what we've seen recently, this practice has become grotesque.  I can't imagine what we haven't seen.

Since government has taken upon itself the role of controlling who, where, what, why and how we get oil -- for example -- there's nothing wrong with an oil company working with government.  They have to.  By design, in order to survive.  I don't think they're the ones "controlling" it.  But.. hey... what have you seen?  

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

And Meister, read Meister too

And what's going to happen? He'll close the book when finished and suddenly think just like you? I doubt that's how it works.... Reading the Bible didn't make me a Christian nor did "Christianity" (Nietzsche) make me an Atheist.... We are who we are and we will gravitate toward and prop up works of art and information that confirm our self image...... which is exactly the way it ISN'T supposed to work. But we are merely human.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

And we are splitting hairs. What you guys call crony-capitalism, I call corporate control of government. Not much difference at all. At least not enough to put any of us on the far right or left of the issue.

If government inserts itself into something -- corruption will occur, where there wasn't -- or it will increase ten-fold where it was.

The companies making the right contributions to the right politicians, get "research" dollars, favorable legislation, etc.  The ones that don't -- get audited.  Just looking at what we've seen recently, this practice has become grotesque.  I can't imagine what we haven't seen.

Since government has taken upon itself the role of controlling who, where, what, why and how we get oil -- for example -- there's nothing wrong with an oil company working with government.  They have to.  By design, in order to survive.  I don't think they're the ones "controlling" it.  But.. hey... what have you seen?  

Bean, you are correct. I guess it just boils down to: someone like myself blames the corporations and the government, and someone like you just blames the government.... Quite silly, right?

[Mahalo]

Pinder- that is well said- where I come in is this:

In large part I can chose which businesses I would like to support- however I cannot chose how much taxes I HAVE to pay. I think the health care law in particular creates a terrible HORRIBLE precedent with untold ramifications down the road by telling American citizens BY LAW THEY HAVE TO PURCHASE SOMETHING- in this case Health Insurance. I don't like where that is headed, and if it was up to me anyone who voted for that law should be arrested for treason. That is not hyperbole. I mean that wholeheartedly- the same goes for the S.C. justices that upheld the law.

If we really want to get into it, we should start a "Monsanto non- appreciation" thread.