Mike's musical abilities

[The Heartical Don]

I got VERY close to actually shooting a documentary on Mike! We got in touch with his management and, Mike and Elliot Lott liked the idea apparently, and we were supoosed to discuss things when they got back from some "Beach Boys' tour... then we never heard anything! We didn't follow up either, so it still may have been salvagable. But this was a few years ago now.

It could've been great!

I think a feature length "I Just Wasn't Made For These Times docu on Mike would be wonderful!

Any ideas on the perfect title for such a thing???

See You In Court?

Courtney Love?

Love & Money? (he could redo 'Love And Mercy' with these lyrics, I guess).

I Was Sitting In A Crowded Courtroom Getting Dough From Brian
All The Articles In The Press They Are Only Lying'
Love And Money That's What I Need Tonight
Love And Money To Me And My Wife Tonight

well, you know the score.

[shelter]

If a Mike Love book or documentary would be named after a Beach Boys song, this one would be interesting:

"Love Is A Woman (And Other Shocking Confessions)"

[mikeyj]

If a Mike Love book or documentary would be named after a Beach Boys song, this one would be interesting:

"Love Is A Woman (And Other Shocking Confessions)"

I'd read/watch it!

[dogear]

Doesn't "Jingle Bell Rock" sound great? Well, I saw him perform it on a youtube video recently and had a good laugh.

[Andrew G. Doe]

A person doesn't need to be capable of playing music s/he writes, after all, so long as s/he is capable of getting it "written" (either literally or figuratively, meaning documented so that someone else can decipher it).

This was the case with Jim Morrison and The Doors. Jim couldn't play any instruments, so he would sing the melody (and words) to the band; then Ray, Robby, and John would take it from there. But the original idea, melody, and words would be Jim's....

Jim supposedly could play a bit of piano. Have you ever heard 'orange county suite'? A demo with vocals and piano recorded by Jim in Paris, and later overdubbed by the others in 97. The problem is, i've read that it's Jim playing the very simple piano, and I've read it's another fellow. But I guess it's Jim.

PS: Jim could very well never used an instrument to write the tunes for his Doors' songs.

There's footage of Jim playing basic piano from 1968 - not concert standard, but passable.

Small aside - most of "Light My Fire" was written by Robbie.

[Dave in KC]

Since The Doors have come up, I just got a CD entitled Alive She Cried and it is the best live Doors I have ever heard. Moonlight Drive is something special as Jim goes into Horse Latitudes and then back to MLD to finish. God they were good.

[shelter]

Small aside - most of "Light My Fire" was written by Robbie.

Robbie is listed as the sole songwriter of 'Light My Fire' on the more recent compilations.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Small aside - most of "Light My Fire" was written by Robbie.

Robbie is listed as the sole songwriter of 'Light My Fire' on the more recent compilations.

Really. I'm surprised Ray let that slip past him.

[Shady]

I got VERY close to actually shooting a documentary on Mike! We got in touch with his management and, Mike and Elliot Lott liked the idea apparently, and we were supoosed to discuss things when they got back from some "Beach Boys' tour... then we never heard anything! We didn't follow up either, so it still may have been salvagable. But this was a few years ago now.

It could've been great!

I think a feature length "I Just Wasn't Made For These Times docu on Mike would be wonderful!

Any ideas on the perfect title for such a thing???

Courtney Love?

Love & Money? (he could redo 'Love And Mercy' with these lyrics, I guess).

I Was Sitting In A Crowded Courtroom Getting Dough From Brian
All The Articles In The Press They Are Only Lying'
Love And Money That's What I Need Tonight
Love And Money To Me And My Wife Tonight

well, you know the score.

  Got a good laugh out of that.

Mike had serious lyrical ability IMO, Shame a bit of the time he wrote what he thought people wanted to hear, but when he was on form he created genius.

All I wanna Do being his golden moment I think

[Sheriff John Stone]

Small aside - most of "Light My Fire" was written by Robbie.

Robbie is listed as the sole songwriter of 'Light My Fire' on the more recent compilations.

Really. I'm surprised Ray let that slip past him.

Which is why it was best when The Doors credited their songs to "The Doors". On "Light My Fire", Robby wrote the basic chords, melody and words. Jim added a few of his lyrics, Ray added the great organ intro, and John's drumming drives the track. So what do you do? The Doors tried the individual writing credits on The Soft Parade and all hell broke loose.

On the recent documentary Classic Albums: The Doors, John Densmore mentioned that Jim couldn't play a single chord on any instrument. Yes, it was a bit of an exaggeration, but the point was taken. AGD, I know the footage you're referring to, with Jim at the piano in that hotel room, pounding away and shouting/singing, "I'll give you my latest, philanthropic sonata." And, yeah, Dancing Bear, I like "Orange County Suite" a lot. I suppose Jim could've banged out a few chords if he had to, but I still believe he "sang" his songs to get them written, which was my original point....

[the captain]

I think that individual songwriting credits are tricky things with a band. I mean, it tends to be obvious who came up with the basic ideas. But if somebody thinks of a cool part, when does that stop being an arranging idea and become composition? In a way I am glad I never played in a band that had the success at which point debating those kinds of things would happen. But when there's no money at stake, nobody gives a sh*t. 

[Sheriff John Stone]

I was and am still amazed how the Lennon/McCartney credit survived.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

But it DIDN'T survive!

Didn't Sir Paul recently "revert" some credits to credit him as the sole composer??

And yeah, it's a tricky, awful thing and has ruined many a great band. "The Band" is my favortie example. Robbie Robertson wrote a few great songs, a few good ones, and quite a few duds, but his bandmates, played the hell, sung the hell, arranged the hell out of each and every one and elevated them to the heavens only to be (in Levon's words) "pistol whipped" out of credit and $$$$$$

[Surfer Joe]

As an example of how tricky it is, did Manzarek's great keyboard riff even make it into Jose Feliciano's top five version of the song?  I guess if you went into the cover versions, sometimes it would be there and sometimes it wouldn't. Do you credit Manzarek only when the organ intro is used?  And personally, I don't think drumming rises to the level of songwriting in the vast majority of cases, but that's just me. For some reason I had always thought "Light My Fire"  was just written by Krieger, didn't realize there was a story there.

But creativity is really interesting and complicated, for sure.

There's a phenomena (phenomenon?) I've personally noticed by which when you have a bunch of people in a room working on something creative, sometimes people will tend to think that ideas that happened in the room (or seemed to) while they were present came from them. It's not that they're lying, it's a legitimate mis-impression.  I think it happens when someone presents an idea and others recognize it and experience something like the "light bulb" sensation- "Oh, I get it, I see" gets mixed in with "that came from me"- especially after time has passed. 

Or, the light bulb moment can be built up and approached steadily until several people take the next logical step together. In that case it can be impossible to know where an idea came from.  And yet another thing that happens is when creative people work together for long enough their minds can get synched up and they start thinking alike in real time- "Do this"'.../"...I'm way ahead of you..."

I don't know for sure if this happens in music but I've seen it repeatedly in story sessions for films I worked on in my former career. I've had ideas I had saved for an upcoming sequence for a month, had full notes on them, pitched them in a meeting when they came up, only to  see people who were in the meeting explain later how they got the idea- and I don't think they weren't dishonest people. The credit for inconsequential work-for-hire b.s. didn't matter at all in those cases, but the phenomena interested me because I think they really believed what they were saying. I think this because I had it happen to me a couple times, too- I'd go through an earlier draft of the script and find that something I thought I came up with had been there all along. Or maybe it went out and I just brought it back in.  But there's a definite phenomena there for non-dishonest over-claiming, and I always see songwriting disputes in light of this.

[the captain]

  phenomena (phenomenon?)

The singular is phenomenon.

Great examples, by the way. And yes, I think it applies to music (or can, anyway).

[Surfer Joe]

But it DIDN'T survive!

Didn't Sir Paul recently "revert" some credits to credit him as the sole composer??

Not sure about that.  I know he wanted his name first on a few songs he wrote entirely by himself, notably "Yesterday", which seems reasonable, but I think Yoko refused.  I think McCartney's name was removed from some stuff like "Give Peace A Chance" that he didn't touch, and replaced with Yoko's. Then I think McCartney listed them with his name first on a live album, and Yoko didn't challenge him, but the official credits still read the old way.  Somebody here will know for sure.

The whole Lennon/McCartney, McCartney/Lennon thing was nebulous from the start.  There were some early songs issued as McCartney/Lennon, then reverted later, I think.

[Surfer Joe]

  phenomena (phenomenon?)

The singular is phenomenon.

Great examples, by the way. And yes, I think it applies to music (or can, anyway).

Thanks (on both counts), Luther!

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Ah, I knew there was more to it that I thought!

And I agree it was nebulous at best, but a cute idea at the time!

Now if they'd only had all song credits read "Lennon/McCartney/Harrison/Starr" ..... we'd be living in a much different world!

[Wirestone]

The best recent example of this is the continued legal wrangling over the credit of "Whiter Shade of Pale" Matthew Fisher, the organist on the song, has pursued not only a credit, but royalties, for coming up with the distinctive riff.

Of course, the riff is adapted from Bach, and that's an entirely different level.

[Surfer Joe]

Well, Erik, don't trust my memory until somebody confirms or adds details.

The guy who challenged L/M on a few things was Harrison, who ("I think"- the official SJ disclaimer) publicly said in about 1988 that he had co-written "I Feel Fine" in the back of a cab, only to have McCartney disagree and say that it was John's song. I think Harrison said he was undercredited on a few others.

But then, John said he had co-written "Taxman", and George pretty clearly contributed to "Octopus' Garden".  Overall, a remarkably peaceful band when it came to credits.  John and Paul were the anti-Brian and Mike in many ways.  John apparently dismissed anything he thought was a small contribution and credited a song entirely to whoever was the primary guy. In that spirit, he said he had not contributed anything to "Penny Lane".  Paul confirmed that John had written "Strawberry Fields Forever" with no input from Paul, but disputed John on "Penny Lane" citing many lines that John had contributed.

I think they basically disagreed on two songs- "In My Life" and "Eleanor Rigby", and I think they were probably either honest disagreements or a product of the fact that John was gone before Paul had access to his comments and it could be sorted out.

[Surfer Joe]

The best recent example of this is the continued legal wrangling over the credit of "Whiter Shade of Pale" Matthew Fisher, the organist on the song, has pursued not only a credit, but royalties, for coming up with the distinctive riff.

Of course, the riff is adapted from Bach, and that's an entirely different level.

claymcc, what confuses me is that the Frankie Lymon/Morris Levy suit was thrown out in the early nineties (presumably at a pretty high level) under a ruling that "long neglected rights cannot be enforced".   I thought for sure that this would end all disputes from the fifties and sixties, but then came Brian vs. Mike, Axton/"Joy To The World", Johnson vs. Berry, and as you mention, "Whiter Shade", which I think the guy won on- is that right?  So it seems to me that "Why Do Fools Fall In Love" needs a new trial.  They should sue the carcass of ol' Morris Levy one more time.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Well put Surfer Joe and Claymcc

What I'm really wondering is why the estate of Robert Johnson hasn't sured each and every blue artist since!!!!!

[PaulHippensteel]

The Ventures' cover of "Light My Fire" is a note-for-note instrumental rendition, including organ (played by a session musician, possibly David Gates or Leon Russell since John Durill didn't become their first full-fledged keyboardist until several months later).

[the captain]

Overall, a remarkably peaceful band when it came to credits.  ... credited a song entirely to whoever was the primary guy.

I wonder if Queen were that way, too. I know that they gave the primary songwriter creative control on his own tunes, but I find it hard to believe that four such musically powerful voices weren't contributing to one another's music more often than the credits show. Of course, being such strong voices, maybe each of them really took control of his own songs and kept the others from getting two cents in...

[Surfer Joe]

Erik, I think Robert Johnson's authorship of the songs he recorded is an open question in many cases.  With a lot of blues stuff you just go back to the earliest known recorded version of the song, or printed reference to it, or whatever.  1936 is usually far enough back to take the cake, but who knows where the song was before that?  I think I've seen "Dust My Broom" credited to Elmore James, even though Johnson's version is twenty years older than the James version I have, and I think the Rolling Stones' "Love In Vain" was just listed as a traditional arranged by them at some stage, not sure, and "Crossroads" by Clapton may have been credited as traditional as well.