Van Dyke Barks

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Which is fair unless the other point of view is formed without having actually seen the thing.

[Cam Mott]

Which is fair unless the other point of view is formed without having actually seen the thing.

As I said, they should be factual not petty.

[filledeplage]

Van Dyke's been around long enough to know that the business is just that…. business. He's never complained in the past about being slighted where SMiLE is concerned and at times seemed to want to distance himself from the association altogether. Now, all of a sudden, he's in the same "I did that" mode that Mike and Carol Kaye are in. If they feel they need more credit, that's fine. Hammer it out where it matters. Snarky interviews and tweets about a critically acclaimed movie is only looking petty and unprofessional. Love and Mercy is not a movie about the making of SMiLE or Pet Sounds and it's not about the Wrecking Crew. It is a movie about Brian's creative zenith collapsing under the weight of psychological issues and substance abuse, his painful fall and his eventual recovery. He's being brutally honest about his own issues,  putting them on the big screen for all to see. That has to be painful, and that takes guts.  I find it sad that so many people who should be rejoicing that he survived at all want to make this about them. Let the guy have his moment of triumph, lay off the childish public comments, and correct the inaccuracies in the history books.

I mostly agree, be factual not petty, but I don't think Brian's repeated claims that the movie is very accurate are helping the situation where people who were also there feel it is not accurate about them from their point of view.

They need to get over it. What's he gonna say? "The movies a pile of sh*t that makes everyone look bad"? And sabotage his own triumphant moment? Not realistic. People like VDP and Carol Kaye need to understand that in a film you've got to condense years into minutes. So maybe Carol wouldn't have questioned Brian about X, but that was the most effeicient way to show Brian was thinking on a level beyond his peers. And maybe SMiLE was more VDP's than we realize, but this isn't the time to hash that point. Ultimately it's irrelevant to what the movie is about. If he's upset he hasn't got his due, he had his chance to to set the record straight all these years, especially 2004 and 2011 and he didn't.

Carol Kaye was very well presented in that film, I think. Her character was strong, assertive and very fashionable in cool shades and true-to-the-era costuming.  

There is an exchange between Carol and Brian where she questions whether playing two keys is a mistake. She is questioning Brian! I found the scripting priceless and find that she serves as sort of a good role model for young women in music from that era.  And it is a cameo appearance.  Her character may even have more lines than those portraying BB's.

Yes, but supposedly she's taken offense to that, saying she never would have thought that was a mistake. That's what I'm referring to

Women's Studies Departments might disagree with her.  On a very credible level, Kaye appears to have broken a "glass ceiling" in the music business.  Maybe she wasn't the first, but certainly had a high profile role.  And she wasn't a woman dressed up as a man (George Sand) but was very much au courant, style-wise, but apparently accepted and in demand as a session musician. 

She isn't presented as passive but sort of ahead of her time, and with this film, will likely be remembered in such terms, notwithstanding whatever issues she is asserting.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

In fairness to Carol Kaye, the point of that scene was not to showcase a woman exerting her presence in the studio in 1966. Rather, the point is to illustrate how Brian knew more about music and the bass than his session players did. As she is playing the part, she looks over to Brian in the studio as if she is saying, "You were right, Brian."

[Wirestone]

Touching back on the point someone raised about TLOS being the start of the dissonance between VDP and BriMel, didn't Live Let Live originally have lyrics by Van Dyke which were replaced with lyrics by Scott?

There are two sets of released lyrics; each of them are by VDP.

[filledeplage]

In fairness to Carol Kaye, the point of that scene was not to showcase a woman exerting her presence in the studio in 1966. Rather, the point is to illustrate how Brian knew more about music and the bass than his session players did. As she is playing the part, she looks over to Brian in the studio as if she is saying, "You were right, Brian."

Of course, the role is incidental to the movie, and her character assents to Brian's grand plan, as you note...but "taken as a whole," alongside The Wrecking Crew work, it is significant for women to note her success in that era.  A young woman could be favorably influenced and/or inspired by her participation.  

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

How often did session guys from the time talk about Van Dyke arranging or producing those songs?

He didn't.

A player in them? Sure. Someone who made suggestions? Undoubtedly. But it's been long-established -- including from VDP's own words -- that BW was responsible for the Smile music. Full stop:

Exactly. How does a glorified scribe, regarding Smile, suddenly become as responsible for Smile as Brian. You don't need to be Sherlock Holmes to see that he got a bug up his butt after BWPS and TLOS. As is the case many times in life... sometimes you can't go back. His "new" lyrics for BWPS sure didn't work for me. Maybe trying to recreate the magic starting with BWPS , was a mistake. Maybe in '67 Parks was pushing the album in a way Brian did not want to go. Maybe he rubbed Melinda the wrong. Maybe he rubbed Brian the wrong way. Remember what happened with Jeff Beck...they did not click at all. 

In any case, no amount of speculation or guessing by fans or anyone else will change the fact that matters. That fact being that VDP is losing his credibility by behaving like a jealous teenager.

Very well said.

[Mike's Beard]

I dunno, we had this conversation on the board a few years back. A quick listen to some of VDP's pre-Smile singles and Song Cycle makes me think it's entirely possible that some of Van may well have spilled into the music for Smile.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

In fairness to Carol Kaye, the point of that scene was not to showcase a woman exerting her presence in the studio in 1966. Rather, the point is to illustrate how Brian knew more about music and the bass than his session players did. As she is playing the part, she looks over to Brian in the studio as if she is saying, "You were right, Brian."

Of course, the role is incidental to the movie, and her character assents to Brian's grand plan, as you note...but "taken as a whole," alongside The Wrecking Crew work, it is significant for women to note her success in that era.  A young woman could be favorably influenced and/or inspired by her participation.  

True, she does represent the very possibility of women working in that capacity and to that extent in the business when many probably thought it was impossible. In that sense, an absolutely influential and inspirational model.

[Empire Of Love]

I dunno, we had this conversation on the board a few years back. A quick listen to some of VDP's pre-Smile singles and Song Cycle makes me think it's entirely possible that some of Van may well have spilled into the music for Smile.

No doubt.  I've always thought VDP's music/style/feel influenced Brian.  However some of Phil Spector and The Four Freshmen spilled in too, but that doesn't mean they wrote or arranged any of the music.  The fact that VDP was there and influenced Brian and counted off the start of the songs doesn't mean he wrote or arranged the music.  He may have, but I'm not sure what spilling and counting prove beyond his influence and presence at the sessions.  Given his past statements giving Brian full credit it seems odd he is making these insinuations now.

EoL

[Custom Machine]

Out of the people who are making these inaccuracy claims, who besides Carol Kaye has actually seen the movie?

Mike admitted he never the saw the thing, Van Dyke Parks basically admitted that he hasn't seen it. Brian's repeated claims about accuracy aren't helping? Aren't helping what? From his perspective the movie is very accurate, and until these people actually watch the movie they really have no right to comment on the accuracy of it.

Given that individuals who are portrayed and/or discussed in a book or movie frequently state that they haven't read the book or seen the movie, in order to avoid answering questions concerning the specifics of the book or movie, it's possible that Mike and/or Van actually have seen the movie, but by stating that they haven't seen it they are afforded a free pass in not being expected to discuss any aspects of the movie they don't wish to publicly address.

[Cam Mott]

I don't know if I hear VDP musical influence over SMiLE or not. Not, I guess, but I'm not a very good judge. Not.

I had a left over "not".

Judging by VDP's pre-SMiLE lyrics, I bet Brian was expecting something other then what he got (like sunshine and God) and that might be one of the reasons he didn't really embrace most of VDP's lyrics and mostly de-VDPed SMiLE for Smiley.

Also I bet VDP's demeanor that is coming out now was responsible for some of the clashing and dominating and egoing and going and coming back and forthing reportedly at the time. But still I personally can see where he possibly has grounds for a complaint about his character in L & M, if he has or when he does see it.

[Catbirdman]

Quick reality check:

OK, so everyone is assuming Van Dyke Parks is asserting that he was instrumental in arranging/influencing the music of Smile, and not just the lyrics. Did he actually say that, or clearly imply it? I'm honestly asking. He may very well have and I missed it; I have only done quick scans of this thread as time allows. But all I have seen from the source himself - VDP - are comments on the cello part in Good Vibrations. The only time I saw it mentioned clearly in print that VDP has long gone uncredited for his influence on Smile music at large was in the blog article linked to earlier in this thread. But note that those statements came from the blogger. I wonder if the blogger, based on VDP's comments about Good Vibrations (which let's face it, he has been saying for years), made a bit of a leap in logic there.

Just want to be careful, because you know how message boards are - one person says something and it gets chewed on and thrown around and blown out of proportion and becomes something else entirely.

So I humbly ask we take a real close look again at what came from the source - is it entirely clear that Van Dyke himself is claiming he contributed musically to Smile, beyond that cello part, and to what degree?

In any case I have to say that Van Dyke Parks is coming across very poorly in these tweets. It's sad to me because I have the utmost respect for his talent and unique artistry. Don Malcolm, I LOVED your post - very speculative on what might be going through Van Dyke's head, so probably not totally on the mark, but VERY possible and very compassionate and fair-minded all around as to likely scenarios.

I also think there's something in the TLOS thing - I remember hearing that announced as a BW/VDP collaboration at first too, and remember being disappointed when that didn't pan out, and I remember thinking to myself "I wonder what happened and how does VDP feel about it..."

[Autotune]

Quick reality check:

OK, so everyone is assuming Van Dyke Parks is asserting that he was instrumental in arranging/influencing the music of Smile, and not just the lyrics. Did he actually say that, or clearly imply it? I'm honestly asking. He may very well have and I missed it; I have only done quick scans of this thread as time allows. But all I have seen from the source himself - VDP - are comments on the cello part in Good Vibrations. The only time I saw it mentioned clearly in print that VDP has long gone uncredited for his influence on Smile music at large was in the blog article linked to earlier in this thread. But note that those statements came from the blogger. I wonder if the blogger, based on VDP's comments about Good Vibrations (which let's face it, he has been saying for years), made a bit of a leap in logic there.

Just want to be careful, because you know how message boards are - one person says something and it gets chewed on and thrown around and blown out of proportion and becomes something else entirely.

So I humbly ask we take a real close look again at what came from the source - is it entirely clear that Van Dyke himself is claiming he contributed musically to Smile, beyond that cello part, and to what degree?

In any case I have to say that Van Dyke Parks is coming across very poorly in these tweets. It's sad to me because I have the utmost respect for his talent and unique artistry. Don Malcolm, I LOVED your post - very speculative on what might be going through Van Dyke's head, so probably not totally on the mark, but VERY possible and very compassionate and fair-minded all around as to likely scenarios.

I also think there's something in the TLOS thing - I remember hearing that announced as a BW/VDP collaboration at first too, and remember being disappointed when that didn't pan out, and I remember thinking to myself "I wonder what happened and how does VDP feel about it..."

https://mobile.twitter.com/thevandykeparks/status/607315361923362816

[Wirestone]

VDP clearly had an enormous influence on the Smile project -- I won't deny that -- and it's closer to a true 50-50 collaboration between him and Brian than most of BW's work with lyricists. (With the exception, perhaps, of something like "I Get Around" or "409" where Mike actually made direct musical contributions that were critical to the song.)

If anything, Van Dyke had a conceptual influence on the project -- there's that word again -- that cannot be understated. The band was wrangling with it through the Holland years, at the very least. And, again, he was a session keyboardist and helped bring Brian's songs to life. No denying that.

But the thing is, we've all known this for years. We've talked about it for years. And none of it translates to Van Dyke having a sizable hand in the composition or arrangement of the Smile music. Song Cycle, except for being played by some of the same Wrecking Crew guys and having a certain modular quality to the songwriting, sounds very little like the Smile sessions to me. It's far denser and more angular.

I mean, Don Randi never made a fuss about getting a co-writing credit on God Only Knows, despite contributing one of its signature moments. Glen Campbell never groused about not being more acknowledged for changing the Dance, Dance, Dance riff. All these guys contributed to Brian's music, but it was ultimately his creation.

It seems I'm in the minority here in that I like Van Dyke a lot. I think his music is terrific, and he seems to be a great guy (if a tad prickly here and there). But he had many, many years in which to make these claims and state his case. He worked with Brian again in the mid-90s and, again, in the mid-oughts. They gave joint interviews, for gods' sake. There was so much time, and so much space, for him to say what he needed or wanted to say.

Doing so now, in these circumstances, isn't cool.

[Cam Mott]

I am assuming it is coming up now because of the movie which is more specific to his time with Brian than past biopics.

[SBonilla]

I dunno, we had this conversation on the board a few years back. A quick listen to some of VDP's pre-Smile singles and Song Cycle makes me think it's entirely possible that some of Van may well have spilled into the music for Smile.

No doubt.  I've always thought VDP's music/style/feel influenced Brian.  However some of Phil Spector and The Four Freshmen spilled in too, but that doesn't mean they wrote or arranged any of the music.  The fact that VDP was there and influenced Brian and counted off the start of the songs doesn't mean he wrote or arranged the music.  He may have, but I'm not sure what spilling and counting prove beyond his influence and presence at the sessions.  Given his past statements giving Brian full credit it seems odd he is making these insinuations now.

EoL

Counting off the music isn't done by some random spectator in the studio. It is done by the session leader or conductor.

[Cyncie]

I am assuming it is coming up now because of the movie which is more specific to his time with Brian than past biopics.

Seriously. The guy needs to actually watch this thing before he gets all snarky about it. It's not an American Family type hatchet job. Van Dyke is depicted as scholarly and well spoken and very much involved in SMiLE, even taking the lead in explaining the concept to the dinner guests in the scene where Brian's auditory overload happens. So what if no one actually stood up and listed his credits? That's not the story that is being told. Parks is in the business. He should know this. It's not a movie about SMiLE or Van Dyke. It's not a documentary. It's a movie about Brian's collapse and recovery.

Everyone, from Mike to Carol Kaye to Van Dyke were treated fairly, IMO. If any of these complainers who haven't actually seen the movie want the story told their way, they can get their own screenwriters and do it. But, if they do, I expect them to do more than just say, "See, I did this! Look at me!" To be in Brian's league in this, they need to have the balls to plaster all of their own personal pain up on a 22 foot screen for everyone to see and comment on. Then I'll pay attention.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I am assuming it is coming up now because of the movie which is more specific to his time with Brian than past biopics.

Seriously. The guy needs to actually watch this thing before he gets all snarky about it. It's not an American Family type hatchet job. Van Dyke is depicted as scholarly and well spoken and very much involved in SMiLE, even taking the lead in explaining the concept to the dinner guests in the scene where Brian's auditory overload happens. So what if no one actually stood up and listed his credits? That's not the story that is being told. Parks is in the business. He should know this. It's not a movie about SMiLE or Van Dyke. It's not a documentary. It's a movie about Brian's collapse and recovery.

Everyone, from Mike to Carol Kaye to Van Dyke were treated fairly, IMO. If any of these complainers who haven't actually seen the movie want the story told their way, they can get their own screenwriters and do it. But, if they do, I expect them to do more than just say, "See, I did this! Look at me!" To be in Brian's league in this, they need to have the balls to plaster all of their own personal pain up on a 22 foot screen for everyone to see and comment on. Then I'll pay attention.

Preach it!

[Empire Of Love]

I dunno, we had this conversation on the board a few years back. A quick listen to some of VDP's pre-Smile singles and Song Cycle makes me think it's entirely possible that some of Van may well have spilled into the music for Smile.

No doubt.  I've always thought VDP's music/style/feel influenced Brian.  However some of Phil Spector and The Four Freshmen spilled in too, but that doesn't mean they wrote or arranged any of the music.  The fact that VDP was there and influenced Brian and counted off the start of the songs doesn't mean he wrote or arranged the music.  He may have, but I'm not sure what spilling and counting prove beyond his influence and presence at the sessions.  Given his past statements giving Brian full credit it seems odd he is making these insinuations now.

EoL

Counting off the music isn't done by some random spectator in the studio. It is done by the session leader or conductor.

Which has nothing to do with whether or not he wrote and/or arranged the music.  Your statement is a straw man.  No one is claiming VDP was a random spectator, everyone acknowledges he was integral.  The question is whether or not he wrote and arranged it. His own answer for years and years has been no.  Why the apparent change now?

[Komera]

Surprised no one's mentioned today's tweet yet.

https://twitter.com/thevandykeparks/status/615562914422849537

I don't want to reignite a fight.  ("So why are you posting this?")  But that hyphen is pretty interesting.

[GhostyTMRS]

Surprised no one's mentioned today's tweet yet.

https://twitter.com/thevandykeparks/status/615562914422849537

I don't want to reignite a fight.  ("So why are you posting this?")  But that hyphen is pretty interesting.

Maybe VDP should hire a PR firm to handle his tweets from now on.

[Jason Penick]

So what's the deal with VDP claiming to play marimba and keyboards on Pet Sounds? A quick scan of the credits in the box set does not link him to any of the sessions.

[Paul J B]

I am assuming it is coming up now because of the movie which is more specific to his time with Brian than past biopics.

Seriously. The guy needs to actually watch this thing before he gets all snarky about it. It's not an American Family type hatchet job. Van Dyke is depicted as scholarly and well spoken and very much involved in SMiLE, even taking the lead in explaining the concept to the dinner guests in the scene where Brian's auditory overload happens. So what if no one actually stood up and listed his credits? That's not the story that is being told. Parks is in the business. He should know this. It's not a movie about SMiLE or Van Dyke. It's not a documentary. It's a movie about Brian's collapse and recovery.

Everyone, from Mike to Carol Kaye to Van Dyke were treated fairly, IMO. If any of these complainers who haven't actually seen the movie want the story told their way, they can get their own screenwriters and do it. But, if they do, I expect them to do more than just say, "See, I did this! Look at me!" To be in Brian's league in this, they need to have the balls to plaster all of their own personal pain up on a 22 foot screen for everyone to see and comment on. Then I'll pay attention.

Touchdown! Grand slam! Goal!

The hilarious thing about all of this is that Parks now IS the goof he was portrayed as in American Family. Remember the scene where he is sitting atop something and spews off some jibberish like a little weasel. It's reality now. That's what he and his tweets have become. It's kind of stunning.

[Hank Briarstem]

Another dandy.

@elkensky "Love and Mercy" needed more @thevandykeparks VDP: Lithium has a detrimental effect on memory. That relates psycnet.apa.org/journals/abn/9…
5:17pm - 29 Jun 15