Previously released material on The Smile Sessions?

[Jason]

Maybe it was to be included or not, who knows. Same with "Sloop John B" on Pet Sounds. Not intended to be included, but asked/forced by Capitol.

Wrong. Brian's handwritten Pet Sounds tracklist included Sloop John B. You were saying?

Hi. Never seen Brian's handwritten Pet Sounds tracklist. Only read and heard Brian explained why 'SJB' appears on Pet Sounds.
Because of Capitol asked for a potential hit and they thought 'SJB' could be the hit, among weird and non top selling songs.
Plus 'Sloop John B' has nothing in common with the Pet Sounds concept album Brian and Tony intented to create. No link with personal, intimate, melancholy, loss, all themes Brian wanted to express.

Brian disagreed with you. It's ok. More power to us and God help us all for thinking for ourselves and all that jazz.

[Mikie]

Hee heeeeeee!  Bgas is scorched!! 

[Runaways]

Maybe it was to be included or not, who knows. Same with "Sloop John B" on Pet Sounds. Not intended to be included, but asked/forced by Capitol.

Wrong. Brian's handwritten Pet Sounds tracklist included Sloop John B. You were saying?

just thinking about this in a different way.  But what if brian wrote that after capitol asked for it to be on there

[BiG GRiN]

Maybe it was to be included or not, who knows. Same with "Sloop John B" on Pet Sounds. Not intended to be included, but asked/forced by Capitol.

Wrong. Brian's handwritten Pet Sounds tracklist included Sloop John B. You were saying?

Hi. Never seen Brian's handwritten Pet Sounds tracklist. Only read and heard Brian explained why 'SJB' appears on Pet Sounds.
Because of Capitol asked for a potential hit and they thought 'SJB' could be the hit, among weird and non top selling songs.
Plus 'Sloop John B' has nothing in common with the Pet Sounds concept album Brian and Tony intented to create. No link with personal, intimate, melancholy, loss, all themes Brian wanted to express.

Brian disagreed with you. It's ok. More power to us and God help us all for thinking for ourselves and all that jazz.

ahah... not what Brian told me!? Anyway tell him I love hiM! He's still a genius.

[Tilt Araiza]

Hi. Never seen Brian's handwritten Pet Sounds tracklist. Only read and heard Brian explained why 'SJB' appears on Pet Sounds.
Because of Capitol asked for a potential hit and they thought 'SJB' could be the hit, among weird and non top selling songs.

I'm not sure if it was a handwritten list, but there's a memo from Brian to Capitol detailing tracks to be included on Pet Sounds and Sloop John B is among them and this was before SJB was released as a single.  In fact, I think it was early enough in the process that Let's Go Away For Awhile was still titled The Old Man And The Baby, I could be wrong on that, though.

[drbeachboy]

As far as I know, Brian has always said that Sloop... was intended to be on Pet Sounds. It truly amazes how a myth refuses to die.

[Jason]

As far as I know, Brian has always said that Sloop... was intended to be on Pet Sounds. It truly amazes how a myth refuses to die.

It doesn't fit with the "tragic hero" figure that people (read: Brianistas) have built Brian up to be...the guy who encountered innumerable obstacles in the forms of his overbearing father, the record company who stood between him and dominance of pop music, the Beatles, the vindictive, conniving bald-headed cousin Michael Love (the guy who drove him to take drugs), the greedy, manipulative Svengali therapist Eugene Landy, the drugs, the mind gangsters, the booze, his left nut, his right nut, the Russians...

[bgas]

Hee heeeeeee!  Bgas is scorched!! 

Ha HA!!!!  Wrong again Mikie......

Ahh Grasshopper, you see not the cancellation  makes it the definitive back cover? 
and then flip the cover as drbeachboy has so grandly pointed out and find GV X 3
just go with the power of the schwartz and you'll be fine

You miss the point young pal. The fact that GV was printed on the front and back cover, doesn't mean Brian and Van Dyke wanted to add the song into the album.
See 'Sloop John B' and Brian interviews. And instead of argue, you can just tell me what do you think? take a deep breath and relax
[/quote]

Thanxx for that,  sonny. Let's check the Brian interview of the day and see what he has to say about his favorite album, song, tracklist, food, etal ( follow the yellow brick road) 
Follow the yellow brick Road? 
VDP and Brian wanting? Both oif them? Together? deciding what will be on SMiLE?  MAN!! Let me have some of that stuff yer smokin! 

I think it fits great, by the way.  "the Smile you send out returns to you"

[JohnMill]

As far as I know, Brian has always said that Sloop... was intended to be on Pet Sounds. It truly amazes how a myth refuses to die.

It doesn't fit with the "tragic hero" figure that people (read: Brianistas) have built Brian up to be...the guy who encountered innumerable obstacles in the forms of his overbearing father, the record company who stood between him and dominance of pop music, the Beatles, the vindictive, conniving bald-headed cousin Michael Love (the guy who drove him to take drugs), the greedy, manipulative Svengali therapist Eugene Landy, the drugs, the mind gangsters, the booze, his left nut, his right nut, the Russians...

People need to be real careful when they intend on carving up Brian's psyche.  The emotional and physical abuse he suffered at the hands of his father alone could've left long lasting scars that really only people who suffered similar abuse at an early age can truly understand.  As for everything else, well there is no doubt that Brian has faced more than his fair share of adversity as an adult but also seemed to have issues dealing with adversity in an adult manner.  That being said carving up his or anyone else's psyche for that matter would be a very sensitive matter and regardless of which side of the fence you fall on, you probably don't have the full story as nobody truly knows what it's like to walk in someone else's shoes.

[Jason]

I am well aware of the points you discuss. I was merely making fun of the issue in which Brianistas will think of anything to defend their belief of Brian as the tragic hero, that of the poor guy always kept down by THE MAN. I did not intend to trivialize the Murry/Landy situations as that was never my reason for posting that.

And honestly, I thought these...

the Beatles

the vindictive, conniving bald-headed cousin Michael Love (the guy who drove him to take drugs)

the mind gangsters

his left nut, his right nut, the Russians...

...should have been the dead giveaway that I was joking.

[bgas]

I am well aware of the points you discuss. I was merely making fun of the issue in which Brianistas will think of anything to defend their belief of Brian as the tragic hero, that of the poor guy always kept down by THE MAN. I did not intend to trivialize the Murry/Landy situations as that was never my reason for posting that.

And honestly, I thought these...

the Beatles

the vindictive, conniving bald-headed cousin Michael Love (the guy who drove him to take drugs)

the mind gangsters

his left nut, his right nut, the Russians...

...should have been the dead giveaway that I was joking.

"The Real Beach Boy" Sensitive?  Naaahhhhh

[Jason]

I didn't resonate with what was going on at that time.

[Bicyclerider]

The myth that Good Vibrations was not intended to be on Smile dates from interviews with Brian talking about Smiley Smile, not Smile.  And wouldn't we all agree Good Vibrations doesn't really belong on Smiley, where it sticks out like a sore thumb?  But it was on the track list submitted by Brian (written by Diane, his assistant) to Capitol, Capitol made cover artwork and the back sleeve prominently displaying the title.  Is there really any way to argue that it wasn't going to be on Smile?

[Andrew G. Doe]

The myth that Good Vibrations was not intended to be on Smile dates from interviews with Brian talking about Smiley Smile, not Smile.  And wouldn't we all agree Good Vibrations doesn't really belong on Smiley, where it sticks out like a sore thumb?  But it was on the track list submitted by Brian (written by Diane, his assistant) to Capitol, Capitol made cover artwork and the back sleeve prominently displaying the title.  Is there really any way to argue that it wasn't going to be on Smile?

Maybe the earlier sleeve mock ups without the "Good Vibrations Good Vibrations Good Vibrations" strap might indicate it was added after it hit big. By whom is of course a fine, fine question.

[guitarfool2002]

Exactly, and it becomes another myth to add to the one where someone other than a random house artist at Capitol designed the Smile font for some deeper reason than he thought it looked good.

This was a dust-up I had on another board years ago. I still say this: Good Vibrations was written and started during "Pet Sounds" sessions, and was targeted as a single after Brian nearly gave the song away before being convinced by people like Anderle that it could be a great Beach Boys release to keep for himself.

If "Good Vibrations" was quote *meant to be* on Smile all along, would we suggest Brian officially started recording Smile when he tracked Good Vibrations take one in mid-February 1966? His mind was on Pet Sounds at that time, period. It goes to original intent, no matter where the song eventually ended up on an album or project.

[bgas]

Exactly, and it becomes another myth to add to the one where someone other than a random house artist at Capitol designed the Smile font for some deeper reason than he thought it looked good.

This was a dust-up I had on another board years ago. I still say this: Good Vibrations was written and started during "Pet Sounds" sessions, and was targeted as a single after Brian nearly gave the song away before being convinced by people like Anderle that it could be a great Beach Boys release to keep for himself.

If "Good Vibrations" was quote *meant to be* on Smile all along, would we suggest Brian officially started recording Smile when he tracked Good Vibrations take one in mid-February 1966? His mind was on Pet Sounds at that time, period. It goes to original intent, no matter where the song eventually ended up on an album or project.

There's no way to argue whether it was meant to be on SMiLE from the moment he started it. The only question would be, did Brian plan to include it on the LP? My sense is the tracklist came from Brian, not withstanding it's not in his writing. Others obviously differ. Only one person knows/knew. Whether he really remembers is anyone's guess. Let's hypnotize him( whatever) and see!

[Bicyclerider]

Exactly, and it becomes another myth to add to the one where someone other than a random house artist at Capitol designed the Smile font for some deeper reason than he thought it looked good.

This was a dust-up I had on another board years ago. I still say this: Good Vibrations was written and started during "Pet Sounds" sessions, and was targeted as a single after Brian nearly gave the song away before being convinced by people like Anderle that it could be a great Beach Boys release to keep for himself.

If "Good Vibrations" was quote *meant to be* on Smile all along, would we suggest Brian officially started recording Smile when he tracked Good Vibrations take one in mid-February 1966? His mind was on Pet Sounds at that time, period. It goes to original intent, no matter where the song eventually ended up on an album or project.

I'm not sure original intent is relevant.  Let's Go Away for a While was supposed to get lyrics originally - does that mean Brian was forced to include it unfinished as an instrumental because he was running late delivering the Pet Sounds album?  Of course not. When Brian started GV there was no Smile (or Dumb Angel).  After it was finished and released as a single, AND became successful, there is every indication it was planned to on the album - just as every successful single (and some not so successful) ended up on an album.  Now if the single had tanked - like Little Girl I Once Knew - maybe it would not have been considered for the album.

[guitarfool2002]

Exactly, and it becomes another myth to add to the one where someone other than a random house artist at Capitol designed the Smile font for some deeper reason than he thought it looked good.

This was a dust-up I had on another board years ago. I still say this: Good Vibrations was written and started during "Pet Sounds" sessions, and was targeted as a single after Brian nearly gave the song away before being convinced by people like Anderle that it could be a great Beach Boys release to keep for himself.

If "Good Vibrations" was quote *meant to be* on Smile all along, would we suggest Brian officially started recording Smile when he tracked Good Vibrations take one in mid-February 1966? His mind was on Pet Sounds at that time, period. It goes to original intent, no matter where the song eventually ended up on an album or project.

I'm not sure original intent is relevant.  Let's Go Away for a While was supposed to get lyrics originally - does that mean Brian was forced to include it unfinished as an instrumental because he was running late delivering the Pet Sounds album?  Of course not. When Brian started GV there was no Smile (or Dumb Angel).  After it was finished and released as a single, AND became successful, there is every indication it was planned to on the album - just as every successful single (and some not so successful) ended up on an album.  Now if the single had tanked - like Little Girl I Once Knew - maybe it would not have been considered for the album.

I'll play Devil's Advocate for this discussion and ask whether original intent is a song-by-song deal, because discussions a few months ago centered on the Fire-H&V Intro track. As it appeared on BWPS they were joined, and that was the "Fire" element in that section. Yet the argument of original intent was the basis for saying it was a David Leaf creation and not Brian's original intent for the tracks in 1966-67. And thousands of people who didn't own the bootlegs and heard the track for the first time on BWPS now know that track as Fire because that's how it eventually appeared, no matter what Brian's intent would have been.

With Fire and H&V Intro appearing for the first time officially as one track, original intent from 1967 was relevant, but with Good Vibrations it's not?

[Been Too Long]

How about this article from 1966:

New Musical Express,   No. 1036,     18 November 1966

"Meanwhile ... what's Brian doing back at base?"
HOLLYWOOD, Tracy Thomas
While the Beach Boys are rocking Europe, BB-mastermind Brian Wilson, has not been resting on his and their laurels !
This week Brian’s working on the next Beach Boys’ single, another adventure in pop music called “Heroes And Villians,”…

Brian’s also working simultaneously on the next BB album, now entitled “Smile.”
“This LP will include ‘Good Vibrations’ and ‘Heroes And Villains’ and ten other tracks,” says Brian…

[guitarfool2002]

How about this article from 1966:

New Musical Express,   No. 1036,     18 November 1966

"Meanwhile ... what's Brian doing back at base?"
HOLLYWOOD, Tracy Thomas
While the Beach Boys are rocking Europe, BB-mastermind Brian Wilson, has not been resting on his and their laurels !
This week Brian’s working on the next Beach Boys’ single, another adventure in pop music called “Heroes And Villians,”…

Brian’s also working simultaneously on the next BB album, now entitled “Smile.”
“This LP will include ‘Good Vibrations’ and ‘Heroes And Villains’ and ten other tracks,” says Brian…

November 1966, sure, no doubt it would be on the next album because Good Vibrations had already been released as a single by the time of that article and was becoming a worldwide smash hit song. But when Brian started recording Good Vibrations in Feb '66, was he recording the song for Smile? Unless Tony Asher wrote some Smile lyrics we know nothing about, the answer is no. That was my point: original intent.

[Andrew G. Doe]

"GV" was on the original Pet Sounds tracklist memo of 2/23/66.

[guitarfool2002]

"GV" was on the original Pet Sounds tracklist memo of 2/23/66.

That is the ultimate evidence right there in black and white.

[bgas]

"GV" was on the original Pet Sounds tracklist memo of 2/23/66.

That is the ultimate evidence right there in black and white.

Yeah!  If Brian was responsible for that memo. AND if he had seen fit to concentrate his efforts on finishing GV BEFORE he released PS; But he didn't finish it. So then he decided he wanted to put it on SMiLE. 
Don't go getting all PC on us now. Jump back from your DA position before you lose your mind.

[BiG GRiN]

"GV" was on the original Pet Sounds tracklist memo of 2/23/66.

Thanks for the info AGD. I thought I had read that somewhere, but couldn't be sure.

[BiG GRiN]

How about this article from 1966:

New Musical Express,   No. 1036,     18 November 1966

"Meanwhile ... what's Brian doing back at base?"
HOLLYWOOD, Tracy Thomas
While the Beach Boys are rocking Europe, BB-mastermind Brian Wilson, has not been resting on his and their laurels !
This week Brian’s working on the next Beach Boys’ single, another adventure in pop music called “Heroes And Villians,”…

Brian’s also working simultaneously on the next BB album, now entitled “Smile.”
“This LP will include ‘Good Vibrations’ and ‘Heroes And Villains’ and ten other tracks,” says Brian…

November 1966, sure, no doubt it would be on the next album because Good Vibrations had already been released as a single by the time of that article and was becoming a worldwide smash hit song. But when Brian started recording Good Vibrations in Feb '66, was he recording the song for Smile? Unless Tony Asher wrote some Smile lyrics we know nothing about, the answer is no. That was my point: original intent.

Good point. In November 1966, GV (Released in October 10, 1966) was already number one.