Surf's Up without Surf's Up?

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

You will all have to forgive me if this has been discussed before...but we've all heard about the sequencing struggle over the Surf's Up LP between Dennis and Carl.  Dennis wanted Wouldn't It Be Nice (To Live Again) to follow 'Til I Die to finish off the recording.  If this had happened...was the idea to move Surf's Up in the running order...or would the track simply have not been finished?  If the LP wouldn't have featured Surf's Up...what would they have called it?  Finally, did Dennis pull 4th of July after WIBNTLA was nixed...or was there another reason.  This is an LP that has grown on me over the years...but it definitely is lacking because it does not contain any tracks from Dennis (who was really hitting his stride as a composer). 

I'm afraid I can't answer your questions, but personally I'm not a fan of 4th Of July. The only way it could improve the album would be if it replaced Student Demonstration Time. But it wouldn't improve it much.

Sound Of Free on the other hand ...

I agree; "4th of July" isn't that great, but a Surf's Up side one ending with "Sound of Free" after "Disney Girls" instead of "Student Demonstration Time" would be amazing.  I'm also not a fan of the "Surf's Up" album version because Carl's lead vocal in the first half ruins it for me.  He has a good voice as always, but the emotion sounds forced, particularly by comparison to the versions that have Brian's lead vocal from around 1966/67.  I'd be inclined to guess that an album ending with "Wouldn't It Be Nice to Live Again" would be an improvement, but it wouldn't have sold as well, and it's difficult to say what the band would have done without the minor commercial comeback that took place with this album.

I like it, but my daughter on first listen HATED the Carl version. Of course, she first heard it via BWPS. She liked the Brian demo version too; even at four (she's five going on six now) she picked up on the fact it was the same guy only younger.She likes it now, but it is her least favorite version...

[Bicyclerider]

My understanding is WIBNTLA WAS finished - Dennis got into an argument with Carl about track sequence and wanting Wouldn't It Be Nice to Live Again to follow Til I Die.  4th of July was only in rough form, but perhaps if Carl had been more agreeable Dennis would have finished it for the album.  Sound of Free was done and earlier Dennis tracks like Lady and  San Miguel were available, AND Mike's Big Sur (4/4 version, which I prefer to the waltz time Holland cut).

[Sheriff John Stone]

You're all utterly mad! 4th of July is one of Dennis' most truely heartbreaking and beautiful compositions and features one of the most sensitive, stunning vocals Carl ever recorded. It would have enormously improved Surf's Up had it been included and it's a travesty that it wasn't.

  Right on.  The thing is, Surf's Up is like what, 33-34 minutes long?  Both 4th of July and WIBNTLA could have easily fit with room to spare.

I agree. I don't know why there was so much incuding this and excluding that with some of those albums. You had five or six songwriters in the group. Put 'em all on. Did you ever hear somebody complaining that there were too many songs on an album?

More than any other BB album I can think of, putting those two other Dennis songs on (or some of his other ones i.e. "Lady") would've elevated Surf's Up to classic album status, maybe even solidifying it in everybody's Top 5.

[FatherOfTheMan Sr101]

I agree with both those statements. The Carl vocal just doesn't cut it. I think ending the BRIAN SUITE (jk jk!) with WIBNTLA would've been amazing.

However, I still think if the Beach Boys had ended with this album, their legacy would be 1000000x what it is now.

Imagine, the last classic BB album ends with SURF'S UP. I mean, WOW.

[Banana]

Dennis had some pretty amazing stuff completed or in progress that could have gone on that LP.  Was it a case of Dennis just walking away once WIBNTLA was nixed?  I`ve also read (as I am sure we all have) that certain members were jealous of Dennis` growing stature

[wantsomecorn]

Didn't Steven Desper say that on all of the rough cuts of Surf's Up he owns, none of them included "WIBNTLA" at any point?

[Quzi]

Dennis had some pretty amazing stuff completed or in progress that could have gone on that LP.  Was it a case of Dennis just walking away once WIBNTLA was nixed?  I`ve also read (as I am sure we all have) that certain members were jealous of Dennis` growing stature

He was planning a solo LP around that time so he was likely stockpiling goodies for his own selfish needs 

[Cam Mott]

I wouldn't change anything. It's the Beach Boys' "White Album".

[Andrew G. Doe]

Didn't Steven Desper say that on all of the rough cuts of Surf's Up he owns, none of them included "WIBNTLA" at any point?

The joy of BB scholarship: Person A, who was there, says one thing, person B, with equally fine credentials, says something else.

And then there's Carol Kaye.   

[petzounds29]

  I thought Dennis supported Brian in not wanting Surfs Up included on the album and that was how the feud  started between Carl and Dennis.

[Daniel]

can anyone explain to me simply (i dont know about sequencing squabling) why Dennis has 3 or 4 songs on Sunflower but zero on Surf's Up?

[Sheriff John Stone]

I wouldn't change anything. It's the Beach Boys' "White Album".

But, that was the point I was (and others) were trying to make above. Surf's Up is the anti-White Album. It's not a double album, but could've been. It doesn't have representation from all of the band members, but should've. And it didn't adopt a "let's put everything on" philosophy which I wish it would've.

The White Album has been criticized in some circles as having too much fluff, songs that weren't representative of a group the stature of The Beatles, and it should've been whittled down to a single abum. You can't say about Surf's Up. It was whittled down too much. Look at all of the songs The Beach Boys had in tha can at that time. Dennis's stuff alone could've filled an entire side.

[I. Spaceman]

As far as I know, Fallin' In Love was the Dennis song actually slated to appear on the album.

[Bicyclerider]

can anyone explain to me simply (i dont know about sequencing squabling) why Dennis has 3 or 4 songs on Sunflower but zero on Surf's Up?

Dennis felt that his songs had "saved" the Add Some Music album, which was rejected by Warner's and reconfigured with additional Dennis songs (and Cool Cool Water) as Sunflower.  He wanted more input into the next album's sequencing and where his  songs like WIBNTLA would go.  Carl and Dennis disagreed about WIBNTLA and Dennis decided to withdraw all of his songs from consideration for the album, and instead work on his own songs for a solo album.  That's basically it.

[schiaffino]

It's sad because Dennis was really coming on as a songwriter around this time.  I can see Carl's point about Surf's Up.  They were scrambling for anything that might pique interest...and why not pull out Brian's lost classic?  I would disagree with pulling "Feet" off of the LP...it's got a quirky, fun vibe to it.  SDT would go...and probably Looking at Tomorrow.

Since there was more room on the LP, could they gone for 4th, WIBNTLA and Sound Of Free at the expense of SDT (which most agree is the lacking track in question). I don't mind Feet either, and if it could stay then fine by me. Lookin' At Tomorrow is perhaps on it's own not a very solid song, but the mood which it contributes to the album must not be overlooked! It fits so well in there!

Nice thread 

I think I read in another place in this board that 'SDT' was the song most heavily rotated in college radios from that album. Somehow (I dont know why) college kids found the song 'political' and gave the BBs some 'credibility' in that sense.

So even if I think that its utterly stupid to give any 'political', 'social', 'protest' credentials to 'SDT', I have to acknowledge that it played a key role in them re-gaining some market respect.

For that alone, 'SDT' has an undeniable place in 'Surf's Up'.

Now, 'Take a load of your feet'... what were they thinking....

[I. Spaceman]

I was still hearing SDT every once in a while on AOR when I was growing up in the late 70's/early 80's. It is one of the songs that convinced me the band could rock, in any conceivable manner. I like Take A Load Off Your Feet as well.

[wantsomecorn]

Would "Fallin' In Love" have been the song considered for the album if it had already been released as a solo single?

[the captain]

I don't mind SDT and I like Feet a lot, actually. It's fun.

Regarding the suite thing, it depends on how strict you want to be with meanings. Merriam Webster gives the second meaning of suite (the one that includes musical forms; the first is "retinue") as a sub-meaning under "a group of things forming a unit or constituting a collection." The last three songs on Surf's Up could certainly be considered a group of things forming a unit or constituting a collection. Of course, so could side two of it. Or the whole album. Or any songs on any album.

The sub-meaning that is specific to music, however, definitely excludes those songs from being a suite. "b (1) : a 17th and 18th century instrumental musical form consisting of a series of dances in the same or related keys (2) : a modern instrumental composition in several movements of different character (3) : a long orchestral concert arrangement in suite form of material drawn from a longer work (as a ballet)"

I know the term gets thrown around a lot (especially with Smile or whatever), but it's not being accurately used from the real definition. Frankly I think it is going back to my comment in the Wilson / Mozart thread: people want to use a term from serious music to lend validity to Wilson--which is an unnecessary exercise.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

He simply appropriated the term to apply it to how he feels about the 3 songs that end the Surf's Up album. Perfectly valid, I'd say. This wasn't a college thesis, BTW it was a fan on a message board expressing enthusiasm.

But did the Beach Boys basically pile all the Brian onto the end of the album absentmindedly (with Surf's Up always intended as the closer) or because all the active/participating guys wanted their songs earlier in the sequence, or was it because they felt those three Brian songs were something of a piece or flowed nicely back to back?

I guess this is probably a question only Carl or Desper could really answer.

[pixletwin]

"Til I Die" uplifting? , Its a song about a guy saying he is small or nothing in the grand scheme of life until he dies. Its a Logical arguement, but depressing as hell considering the heights scaled and acclaim BW got during the glory years.

I dunno. If the realization of our tiny lives is a depressing thing then I guess people that go see the Grand Canyon come away depressed.

I do get your point though.

[SMiLE Brian]

"Til I Die" uplifting? , Its a song about a guy saying he is small or nothing in the grand scheme of life until he dies. Its a Logical arguement, but depressing as hell considering the heights scaled and acclaim BW got during the glory years.

I dunno. If the realization of our tiny lives is a depressing thing then I guess people that go see the Grand Canyon come away depressed.

I do get your point though.

Good point pixletwin about the grand canyon

But what I really mean with depressing is that most stars think they are big and famous, while BW in 1971 was singing about how he was nothing in the universe. A truth, but scary for BW to really take this to heart considering his young age and talents that could have led to more music.

[SMiLE Brian]

Didn't Steven Desper say that on all of the rough cuts of Surf's Up he owns, none of them included "WIBNTLA" at any point?

The joy of BB scholarship: Person A, who was there, says one thing, person B, with equally fine credentials, says something else.

And then there's Carol Kaye.   

I would pay for your plane tickets to the USA to confront Carol in person.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I think it was because Myke Luhv wanted Brian's fine work banished to the dusty run-off grooves of the record and far from the masterwork that was Student Demonstration Time...


- Pinder Goes To Kokomo:

keeping OSD alive since late 2012!

[SamMcK]

I wouldn't change anything. It's the Beach Boys' "White Album".

From The Beach Boys Anthology, 1995:

Carl: It's great, it sold, it's the bloody Beach Boys "Surf's Up", shut up!

[lance]

I think it would have worked better with 4th of July and Wouldn't have been nice to live again.

Actually, this kind of revisionism gets old, I know,  but I think that there could have been a good double album at that time: a sort of silly or rather light-hearted disc and a heavier, serious disc. A Lot of people think that about Sunflower too, but I would prefer to wait until Surf's Up. Either that or sandwich in an album between 'em.