The Smiley Smile Message Board

  THE BEACH BOYS LOVE YOU was released April 11 1977. It makes no marketing sense at all that "Honkin' Down the Highway" b/w "Solar System" was not released as a single until May 30 1977. Quite a stupid move to wait 6 weeks to release any single from a new album. Who is to blame? Likely Warner/Reprise. Despite the commercial success of 15 BIG ONES and its accompanying singles, Reprise showed little interest in promoting an unconventional LP from a group that would shortly be leaving.

 Moreover, cutting off Dennis's cool drum intro deprived the song of its opening punch - something that would have grabbed one's attention over the radio. I wish The Beach Boys had made a promo video that began with Dennis beating the drums,  then maybe something like Al driving a vintage car. In an alternate universe, "Honkin' Down the Highway" made a slow climb into the Billboard Top 20 in the summer of  1977, bringing LOVE YOU back up the LP chart with it.

 With  better promotion and wiser marketing,  both "Honkin' Down the Highway" and LOVE YOU could have had a bit more commercial success. Yes, it was a strange album, but remember, The Beach Boys were fresh off one of the biggest years of their career and continued to command an audience. Someone dropped the ball.

 

 They continued to attract a large audience because of their live shows, not because of albums like Love You and 15 Big Ones. Love you was akin to Smiley Smile in that it did not represent what the BB's were capable of doing. The label knew that and couldn't blame them for not backing it with a big money promo. Honkin' and Solar System were not marketable in the least. The ball was dropped by no one but themselves.

 


  15 BIG ONES made the Top 10. LOVE YOU was released less than a year later. Let's say "Honkin' Down the Highway" was released a week or two in front of LOVE YOU...no way it doesn't chart. Call me crazy, but that record could have been a minor hit, at least.

 

It's true that 15 BO had a respectable chart run. I would guess, though, that a lot of the people who bought the album, once they took it home and put it on the turntable, didn't like it very much. If they had come up with a strong album (think Summer Days and Summer Nights Volume 2), there's no way that puppy doesn't spin off at least a couple major hits. Instead, we got a return to the top 10 with Rock and Roll Music, and then It's OK barely dented the top 40. Then the group comes out with the very weird Beach Boys Love You album - how do you promote a weird album like that to the masses? It was an album only the cultists were going to get. IMO, if the guys had come out with an album like LA (Light Album) (minus the disco abomination) in 76/77, they would have had a better chance of making it big commercially.

I think the fact that the Group had signed a new contract with CBS in March, a month prior to the release of Love You didn’t help either. Warner was not amused to say the least.

Hard to imagine anything succeeding commercially after 15 Big Ones came out.

Despite your invitation to call you crazy, HDTH was not ever going to be a anything close to a hit. There was nothing on that album that was going to be considered "single" material. The mere fact that the record got little or no airplay is proof of that. The only song worth having from LY is TNWSY and man, that's about it. As was said above, it was a cult release for diehards only. I'm a die hard and I disliked it immensley.

... and then there's me who loved LY it so much I played it at least once a day for two years. I still to this day consider it to be Brian Wilson's first solo album. The Moog sound blew me away but I loved the songs too.

I also love Love You...I think it’s one of the craziest things I’ve ever heard, but a few songs are genius. I think HDTH and Roller Skating Child were the only commercial or quasi-commercial songs. I think HTDH’s lyrics, not the synths, would have turned listeners off. The question is would Roller Skating Child need remixing, re-recording along the lines of the live versions, or just a release of the live version to be a minor hit single?

Of all the Beach Boys albums Love You is unique in that it has no middle ground. You either love it or hate it.

   "Honkin' Down the Highway" is a catchy, driving, rock & roll song about a guy making his way through traffic...so he can get laid. (More or less.) Outside the context of the parent LP, it isn't especially weird or strange. Many songs of similar subject matter have become hits. ("No Particular Place to Go" by Chuck Berry springs to mind.)

 By the time the edited single was released at the very end of May, LOVE YOU was already floundering on the charts. Had "Highway" been released in early April it likely would have made the Top 50 and LOVE YOU would have placed in the Top 40 Billboard albums chart.


 A nice promo video and a couple of television appearances (American Bandstand, SNL) would have strengthened the cause.

Roller Skating Child could have and should have been a hit. I am convinced.

That song has just grown on me so much over the years, I always liked it but now I absolutely friggin love it.  Maybe it's just me having fanboy goggles, but I really think it's catchy and accessible.  Mike and Al's vocals are perfect. Even though some people brush it off as "creepy", I think in the era it came out in, it would not have really been considered such if it was released as a single.  

Also, it recently hit me that the "even do more when Momma's not around" line might perhaps be a drug reference.  I think it's meant to refer to dirty, naughty mischief, and that's about the only illicit thing "more" naughty than sex.

Anyway, it's got a great energy and wonderful little, subtle musical touches, which remind me a bit of those subtle touches on a song like This Whole World.  I think this song would've just needed to have been marketed and pushed, and even though there are certainly questionable lyrics and subject matter in the song, I don't think that in the 1977 era this by definition would've been to the song's detriment in terms of being a hit.

 But yes, I agree wholeheartedly that the ball was completely dropped on marketing the album and the single. Ridiculously so. It feels a bit like when something comes out because of contractual obligation but a corporate entity feels zero confidence in the project and doesn't do anything to help it. Sort of how director Mike Judge was treated with his film Idiocracy.

I was quietly obsessed with Ding Dang for a long time, I can remember back in the day filling up one side of a tape cassette with it and just letting it run ... Musical nirvana, lol ...

I actually think The Night Was So Young might have been a better single. What are the beach boys known for? Harmonies. Did Honkin down the highway have any? Barely. Did TNWSY? Yes, especially the chorus, one of their best on any album, imho. The only problem with the song is the guitar line after every vocal line. I saw Paul Mccartney doing an interview talking about how on Hey Jude George originally wanted to do the same thing, mirror the vocal line with guitar after every line and paul said "no, that wont sound good". Its almost exactly what Carl (? i assume its him) does on TNWSY, and its the one thing about the song that annoys me. However, the whole group harmony on the chorus i think would be the main star of the song....Honkin Down The Highway really doesnt even sound the the Beach Boys if you dont know its them. Where are the great harmonies? TNWSY has that and if someone was hearing it on the radio for the first time theyd immediately go "oh, thats the beach boys..."
my 2 cents

OK then, "Honkin' Down the Highway" or "Roller Skating Child" or "The Night Was So Young" as lead in single with a late March or early April release. Any of the three could have made the Top 50.

Let Us Go On This Way would’ve been ace, personally. The aggressive sound mixed with Brian singing falsetto again might have gotten some attention as a single

You who list "The Night..." & "Roller Skat..." - you kid, right? They don't shout "hit single". Either song will be epic fail. Rightly so. :police:

you think the drum intros good my guy?  well listen to this: i got the bootleg lp, (billy hinche vocal) and you get the drum intro and presceding that you get dennis drumstick click 1-2-1-2-3-4 count off, its my favorite part

I first heard the LY album when it was previewed in its entirety on the largest market Atlanta rock radio station right before its release, which was a big deal marketing-wise then. That was also the last time they played anything from LY. As much as fans may love or hate (not much middle ground imo) this album, it never had any widespread appeal when it was released.

<<With  better promotion and wiser marketing,  both "Honkin' Down the Highway" and LOVE YOU could have had a bit more commercial success. Yes, it was a strange album, but remember, The Beach Boys were fresh off one of the biggest years of their career and continued to command an audience. Someone dropped the ball.>>

*There was no promotion of any significance for Love You or any of the singles, including the 4 song UK EP that included MONA, MARCELLA and two other tracks.  This was even referenced by Mike Love, on stage at the London CBS convention that summer.
*As much as I love LOVE YOU, there is very little on that album that is radio friendly in the context of what was hit record material in the Spring of 1977. It was about 4 years ahead of it's time, pre-dating the early 80s Brit Synth-Pop.  There was no way it could compete in that Eagles/Heart/Doobie Brothers/Fleetwood Mac era.
*Roller Skating Child might have had better chart success; it might have dented the top 40.
*Regarding sales... I remember my High School girlfriend at the time worked in the record/electronics section of our local Decatur, Illinois K-Mart.  At the time, they had a decent selection of music.  I was hoping to get an early release copy from them until I discovered from her that the K-Mart corporate buyers did not pre-order LOVE YOU.  The word she got: The only reason they'd ordered 15 Big Ones the previous Spring was because they thought it was a greatest hits collection.  I suspect a number of other stores believed the same thing.

Ouch!

Wow. Now that I think about it, considering the time 15BO was released (1976, which was right when their old hits were big again), it almost feels like *maybe* that could have been a subtle intentional reason why the album got that title to begin with. Do we know who named 15BO? Mike repeatedly takes credit for naming Pet Sounds, but not sure anyone's taken credit for 15BO.

The album cover (with the awful pics of the band, including the baffling random sideways Al pic) of then-modern day bearded BBs members could almost be seen as an extension of or a sequel to the (also awful, IMO) Endless Summer artwork also featuring pics of then-modern day bearded BBs members. I'm not saying that necessarily the band or record label was trying to deceive fans into thinking it was a greatest hits collection, but perhaps they might have known that some (or more than some) people might make that same mistake, but shrugged it off since a purchase is a purchase and it'd have meant more sales anyway - once it's been purchased and played, it's not like people could come crawling for their money back asking for a refund for false advertising.

I know 15BO was at one point going to be a full album of oldie cover songs + a 2nd whole album of originals, right? I could understand an album of 15 famous oldie cover songs being called 15 Big Ones, or a BBs greatest hits album being called 15 Big Ones, but it truly, truly makes no sense to call what was released 15 Big Ones. That's saying something as undeniably slight as "TM Song" is a "Big One".

I think the marketing people *had* to know the title would give a certain impression that is different from what was on the actual album, but again it maybe seemed like the 15 Big Ones title would be more quickly purchased by fans if the LP seemed like it would contain 15 famous songs just from the title (even if the tracklisting which included some mediocre originals would obviously disprove that).

Here's a weird thought: how would a single of "Good Time" have faired? Probably not too well, I'm guessing?  Perhaps if it had the cool vocal bridge from the American Spring version, it would have been more impactful as a song.

In any case, if Good Time had been any sort of minor success as a single, I cannot imagine how weird it would be for a listener to hear the rest of the album, considering GT is clearly the odd song out (and not even properly part of the album's era). Out of the several times that the band put an old song such as When Girls Get Together (not a previously-released old song that had been a hit single, like GV) on an album, unless I'm misremembering something, I'm guessing that none of those songs were ever released as singles? That said, Good Time is a pretty decent song and oddly enough perhaps still a better choice for a Love You single than a good amount of other songs on the album simply because it has less WTF moments relatively speaking (and I say that even though it has the "falsies" lyric!)

It was also their 15th year as a group.

"Good Time" = great song and vocals, weak lyrics. The American Spring version has stronger lyrics, imo. I wish the BBs had redone their lead with better lyrics.

I suppose that's true too.

Was that fact widely known or being pushed/marketed with a "15th anniversary tour" or anything like that? Otherwise it seems it'd just be an in-joke/reference that pretty much only they or their friends would get.

We vary by mileages.  ;) I dislike entire American Spring album, including bland "Good Time" (lyrics mean zero to this listener).

For many years, before I was a hardcore fan and knew better, I always assumed that 15 Big Ones was a greatest hits album, just with a weird "updated" photo of the group on the cover.

Regarding timing and strategy of releases for “Love You” and its singles, it’s interesting that the band must have felt/known pretty strongly *back then* that Warner wasn’t putting much into their releases what with their weird “lame duck” status having signed with CBS with TWO albums left on the Warner contract.

I recall Al Jardine mentioning in several latter-day (e.g. post-90s) interviews that he remembered Warner cheaping out on “Love You”, citing the cheap quality of the album jacket compared to what the band apparently wanted at some point. Considering how much detail the band members *don’t* retain in modern interviews, the fact that Al remembers that specifically is pretty telling.

With “Honkin’….”, the timing for its release seems to line up pretty close to the typical timing of many “second single” releases from albums, meaning the second single to be pulled from albums. That often tended to happen roughly a month or two after the accompanying album release. I’m not saying they had some other single planned for “Love You” only to be pulled. It’s quite possible Warner just wasn’t putting much into the album or its singles.

Indeed, while I dig “Love You”, I’m not certain *anything* on that album would have been a significantly better chart performer as a single.

I think “Rock and Roll Music” and the 15BO album were a bit of a fluke.

I’ve seen a theory in the past that the best post-“Rock and Roll Music” single choice to be a potential hit would have been either to bump *up* the release of “It’s OK” to earlier, or, post-15BO, to get “Peggy Sue” or “Come Go With Me” out (the latter of which, I believe, if not both, had been tracked by the time “Love You” was out) as a single on the heels of a previous cover being a hit. It would have been a bit of a gimmick/novelty, but it probably would have given them a bit better chart action.

Over the years, I’ve seen a lot of what-ifs involving Beach Boys singles, involving simply pulling a different song or timing single releases differently. And I think there’s not much evidence that gives me a strong sense that such slight variations would have made a big difference. I think “It’s OK” could have been pushed earlier in 1976 and it may have done better on the singles charts. I think minor tweaks may have occasionally resulted in minor improvements. I guess if they had churned out some obvious super-clone of “Kokomo” to come out later in 1988, they may have manufactured another slighter hit (but something that would have done better than the ’89 singles).

But I don’t think “Honkin’ Down the Highway” was ever going to be a hit single, just like nothing from KTSA in 1980 was ever going to burn up the charts, etc.

Regarding stores mistakenly ordering 15BO thinking it was a hits comp, it's strange that after their mistaken strategy in ordering 15BO still ended up being a case where the album went Top 10 and the single went Top 5, that *still* wouldn't indicate that they would want to order that band's next album?

Stores like K-Mart and similar ilk (White Front, etc.) were typically less stocked than full-on record stores, so I would imagine they had to make more judgment calls on what to order or not order, whereas a full-on record store in the late 70s was still typically ordering in at least a few copes of the new BB album.

I suppose I could understand a casual consumer, upon *first glance* at "15 Big Ones", perhaps thinking at first it was a hits compilation. But a buyer for a music dept. of a dept. store would have to be going out of their way to not pay attention to mistakenly order an album thinking, based solely on its title, that it was a hits compilation. They'd have to assume that even with TWO Top 10 "hits" compilations having come out the two previous years in 1974 and 75, including a #1 album, that the Beach Boys were releasing *another* hits compilation of the same hits again (since only those early hits would be the ones that would sell, right?), and would also have to be unfamiliar with the band's then-current label (Reprise) being different than the label that then had the distribution rights to those pre-1966 tracks. And that would also have to ignore any press/publicity from the label concerning BB product.

15BO was released in the dark ages of pre-internet, but even back then I'm guessing that word spread around pretty fast that the album was a bit of an underwhelming stinker and a disappointment, right?

I guess it's like when a series of movie sequels comes out, and one of the sequels is great and makes a lot of money (Endless Summer), but when the next one does pretty well but is widely regarded as pretty meh (15BO), the sequel after (Love You) that suffers greatly at the box office, and nobody cares anymore, even if it's objectively better or more interesting than the preceding one. There's probably a Police Academy/BBs analogy in there somewhere.  ;D

Feels like Love You suffered a similar fate, sadly.

For the record, while it's certainly flawed, I kinda like 15BO anyway, even though it's not a popular opinion.

R&R Music was a good single. Brian's instincts were spot-on there. Good song choice, good hook, nice nasally Mike lead. Not much else about 15BO made sense. It's perhaps the single most curious creation in the band's history, which is saying something.

Curious creation? Nah, Smiley Smile holds that title. Not saying you're off base, but R&RM was certainly a fluke and I wouldn't be surprised if the band's reaction was WTF?? I mean there was some very good music being put down in that time period by other groups, however, the album didn't expand their fanbase but rather drove it down a few notches if anything. The next album would kind of seal their fate as it was for diehards only.

Actually, Spirit of America was the sequel to Endless Summer, and it did very well. Went gold and made the top 10.

I think "15 Big Ones" came across as a case of moments of inspiration and creativity, and then at a certain point it was just a matter of getting a product out there for the summer.

It's fascinating how at certain moments various band members just left things in Brian's lap and stayed passive, and then at other random moments spearheaded projects.

Look at how the hot potato was passed around in the second half of the 70s, either passively or actively. Brian fronts 15BO, then takes even firmer charge of both "Adult Child" material and "Love You", then all of a sudden Al Jardine is left to scrape together a Christmas album (only to see it rejected), and then the "MIU Album", cobbling together new recordings and weird Brian leftovers ("Hey Little Tomboy"?). Then Bruce is back, and first cobbles together disparate solo-ish material into an album ("LA"), and then works a bit more from scratch on a further album (KTSA).

For all the cool tracks on those albums that went largely unappreciated by the masses, it's also at the same time kind of surprising such a schizophrenic/frankensteined series of albums/projects got the band *any* traction with charts or critics. The stuff was only sporadically, sometimes seemingly *accidentally* in step *at all* with what was on the charts at any given moment.

I'd also say, regarding "Rock and Roll Music", that it was a good single and a fun/catchy recording, but its secondary lasting legacy for me and many BB fans is the eventually *tedious* inclusion of the song in nearly every setlist from that point on. The song had some pep when it was first added to the setlist, especially when the band had a horn section. But eventually it became pretty tedious.

By the 90s, what with the band's weird penchant during that era of slowing down a bunch of the songs in the setlist, "Rock and Roll Music" was one of the low points of the show.

On the C50 tour, they reinvigorated the song with some pep by doing it at a decent tempo and, despite the huge band, actually making the song sound pretty sparse and hard-edged relying mainly on drums and guitars. But it still was one of the weaker moments.

It's interesting that, while Brian's tours have usually focused on Brian-penned (or co-penned) songs, he has dipped into old BB covers (e.g. "Do You Wanna Dance"), yet never saw fit to add "Rock and Roll Music" to *his* setlist. I don't think Al often or ever did it at his solo shows. Same thing with "It's OK." For whatever reason, it has been mainly Mike that has revisted those songs and seems to have more fondness. Both Brian and Al, individually and collectively, have instead dipped more into "Love You", while Mike has ignored that one (despite having some good moments singing songs like "Airplane").

Surprised Al hasn't resurrected Come Go With Me. He sure loved getting the crowd into that one circa 1983-84.
I'm still waiting for The Brian Wilson Show to include Kokomo or Still Cruisin'.

Two words: Johnny Carson. 

Now there's a missed opportunity for a #1 single.   :p

In Brian's band, I don't think Al gets much say or input into the setlist.

Al did do "Come Go With Me" at least once with Brian's band, at the first gig he did with Brian back in November 2006 at UCLA. I think after that, even at the 2006/07 gigs they did together, that one was dropped.

Al of course also did it on C50.

I don't think we'll see Brian's band do non-Brian tracks like "Kokomo" or "Still Crusin'." He doesn't even do some of the BB hits he *did* have a hand in writing, like "It's OK", nor some of their cover hits that he (Brian) produced or had a hand in, like "Rock and Roll Music."

The prompt for Brian's solo tours has always been to do mostly songs he has written or co-written. Even some of the songs others like Al or Blondie sing are usually Brian co-writes. There are of course some exceptions, like cover versions ("This Could Be the Night", "Be My Baby", etc.), and on rare occasions Dennis songs. I think the only Al-penned song Al has done with Brian's band that Brian didn't co-write is "California Saga: California." Al supposedly rehearsed "Lookin' at Tomorrow" with Brian's band for the 2014 PBS Venetian gig, but they didn't perform it.

That one was (still is) an earworm for me and I really loved the tag.

Considering how much Brian digs the "Love You" album, I'm surprised he hasn't done more tracks from it more often. They'd be easy for the band to pull off, and his 1976/77 lead vocals are less taxing to do in modern times than his '64 voice. "The Night Was So Young" has had a few airings, and "Honkin' Down the Highway" was in there for a little bit with Al singing.

But yeah, "Airplane" and "Johnny Carson" would have been a hoot to hear, and others as well.

I was surprised when he first started doing solo tours that there weren't more songs from the 1988 album in his setlist. Other than Love and Mercy, the only one I recall him doing (briefly) was Let it Shine. But maybe those songs just remind him of Landy and all the bad stuff going on at that time.

He also did Melt Away at some early oughts shows.

I remember hearing LOVE YOU as a suburban teenager for the first time in '81 (which IIRC was the year the Human League came out which is the first time I can think of a band having anything close to the "Love You" sound got played on the radio) and definitely having a WTF reaction to the productive style. I agree with those here who say that there was just no way anything on it would get on the radio in '77. It really was, in its own way, quite a subversive album. Almost an F-you to radio in a way, though I don't think that was the intention.

I can see how someone who wasn't listening to the radio in the '70s might visualize a hit from that album based on what has come since then but just...no way. I can imagine "Honkin'" with the drum intro back in having a "Goin' On"-like run for a few weeks but other than that...no. I'd have an easier time imagining it in the '80s...and it's interesting (though probably irrelevant) that MIU yielded a hit single in 1981. Even that much more radio-friendly production might have been a little too crisp for AM in '78.

Exactly, I think "Love You" was a relatively subversive album (especially in light of the band's catalog up to that point), and it was indeed largely unintentional. Brian was really just following his muse both compositionally and in terms of production, and it just ended up being this weird item that some some slightly alternative-leaning artists and critics rightly singled out.

But what it *wasn't* was anything like what had scored the group chart action in the preceding number of years.

Rock and Roll Music, It's OK, Come Go With Me, even Peggy Sue were all things, for better or worse, were going to get the band more chart action. I'd still like someone to explain how "Almost Summer" wasn't co-opted for a Beach Boys single in 1978.

Why weren't the guys in the band doing a Redwood-esque scene cornering *Mike* in 1978 and "forcing" him to hand over the song for the Beach Boys?

The chart action, especially around that time, is rather moot anyway, as nothing post-15BO was anything approaching a "hit", so most of this talk ends up being about supposition regarding how they could have bumped some single or album from like #150 to #65 or something.

I think post-R&R Music, the best chance they could have had to score a Top 10 or 20 single would have been to rush out any of the following as a single as early in the summer of 1976 as possible: "It's OK", "Come Go With Me", "Peggy Sue", or "Almost Summer."

Beyond that, it becomes a lot of twisting and turning and finagling to try to even *guess* about weird variations that might have gotten the band more chart action and sales. I guess if they had taken something like "My Diane", handed the lead over to Carl, and re-recorded it to sound production-wise more like "Baby What a Big Surprise" or "If You Leave Me Now" or some other early kind of pop/ballad/yacht rock sort of sound, maybe it would have done something? But that's a lot of "ifs", and I think the band could have come up with the biggest potential hit of 1977 or 1978 and it *still* probably would have sunk because Warner/Reprise weren't putting much into pushing BB stuff.

Neil Young once said (in reference to his own output) that he thought some albums should be promoted, while others should simply be released.

Now, he also said that Geffen buried his 'Everybody's Rockin' album by giving it zero marketing support. But I can't see any amount of marketing making that a hit album. And I'm not comparing it to Love You by any stretch, but Love You was just never destined to have any commercial appeal. But what a great album. Hey didn't they say that  The Velvet Underground with Nico only sold like 15,000 copies when it came out?

On the flip side, I remember reading somewhere (Mansion on The Hill book perhaps) where Springsteen's label absolutely committed to making Born in the USA the album that took Bruce from star to superstar. They promoted the crap out of that album. Now that is a very commercial album to start with, but they pushed and pushed. Makes you think.

As I've said in the past, one out look is that it's arguably surprising "Love You" even did as well as it did. The band has signed a deal with CBS, Al has said Warner Bros. skimped on the "Love You" package down to using cheaper cardboard for the jacket than they wanted, and the music wasn't either in step with modern pop/rock music particularly, nor did it even have the nostalgia bent of stuff like "Rock and Roll Music" or "It's OK."

"Love You" is in many places not even performed/recorded by a "traditional" rock band lineup. It has a bunch of moog and other synths instead of electric bass guitar. It has minimal guitar work (though there is some tasty stuff buried in there). It doesn't have 4/4 bass drum/snare drums in many places.

Even the generally great BB vocals can be criticized. Brian's leads are shaky. Even Carl has that sort of drunk-sounding thing going on a little bit.

To be clear, I love the album. But there are indeed plenty of reasons it didn't do better on the album or singles charts.

The Beach Boys Love You killed their commercial momentum in a way similar to Smiley Smile. Just had SS on in the car today, and I can never get away from how freaking weird that album is! They gave us Pet Sounds, and then THIS? Don't get me wrong, I love Smiley, in fact I intend to play it for anyone who claims the BB's were a bunch squares. Sure, and they never smoked marijuana, never did any songs that weren't cars, surfing and girls.  ::)

One thing I've never understood about the argument that Warner didn't promote "Love You" is the TON of promotional material produced for the record:  all kinds of variations on posters, mobiles and other record store displays. Was that stuff already in the works before they signed with CBS?

I would imagine on the record label side of things the limp support was probably a bit more subtle. Perhaps not putting as much effort into tightly coordinating release dates. Perhaps less work to push stuff to radio. Perhaps less total dollars spent on promotion. I'm sure Warner would still put the basic amount of promotion into the album; it's not as if they didn't still want some level of return on their contract/investment.

It may well have been that they simply didn't extend any extra amenities to the band by the time they knew the band was headed to CBS.

Here's a comment from Al from the 2000 Goldmine interview:

Q: From a purely personal standpoint, can you cite a Beach Boys album that deserves reappraisal?

A: Oh that Love You album has some gems on it. That's the one. It's a shame that the album cover is so crummy - everything about that thing is homemade. I think they thought it was our last album. I think it was issued as our last album for Warner Brothers. And when we went over to sign with CBS, they checked their agreements and we owed them another one. [laughs] They didn't spend a penny on the Love You album because they knew that we weren't coming back. They used real cheap cardboard for it. But the music, you wouldn't believe it. Ed Carter played on that. He's in our band now too. "The Night Was So Young" is a favorite.

"Why weren't the guys in the band doing a Redwood-esque scene cornering *Mike* in 1978 and "forcing" him to hand over the song for the Beach Boys?"

As I recall, from reading the trades and various press accounts in late 1977 or early 1978, the word was that The Beach Boys would be doing the title song for Almost Summer, which is partly why it was written by Brian, Mike and Al.  But WB understandably balked at the idea of MCA getting a new (and commercial) Beach Boys song.  I remember reading a brief Mike Love interview about it at the time, possibly in Billboard or RS. It may even have been a story heard on American Top 40 when it first entered the charts. I don't know if a version was cut at MIU with Brian and Al, but obviously the BGs on the released version are by Celebration.  But my memory tells me it was planned as a Beach Boys track, then changed for legal reasons.

The band was splintering even as its post-ENDLESS SUMMER popularity peaked. "R&R Music" was a safe bet as a single in '76 (Chuck Berry and the Bicentennial, pumped-up patriotism was all over the place that year). It was a lot safer than trying to let Brian write a song that would be their official "comeback 45." The love for "It's OK" that's grown amongst a portion of BB fandom over the years does not change the fact that it's an incomplete "tag" song cobbled out of "Mess of Help to Stand Alone" (sing the two melodies back to back, folks! see how Brian telescoped it to fit Mike's singing style). At the time, it was widely considered to be a weak followup to a fluke top-10 hit which had come about because the world had been waiting for something new from the BB's for two-plus years since ENDLESS SUMMER went through the roof. It hit #29 on the waning strength of the year-long hype, but died on the vine because it just didn't have enough follow-through to "hold its time slot" (as they used to say about TV shows that followed established hits).

LOVE YOU represents the moment when Dennis and Carl stopped trying to exert any overt control over song creation for the band--by this time, Dennis was deep into the solo LP (which came out later in '77), while Carl had health issues and marital woes and worked behind the scenes once Brian had cut the tracks. There are some great songs on LOVE YOU--compositionally speaking--but none of them are fully realized in the way they might have been previously, when Brian was fully engaged (and had the services of the Wrecking Crew). But the combination of the "teenage" lyrics, the craggy lead vocals, and the harsher overall sound meant that this was going to be a cult LP even if WB had tried to promote it fully, which they did not. "Honkin'" is a really fun song, and Al's lead is just tremendous, but it wasn't going to be an AM hit because it didn't have enough of the trademark BB harmony sound in it. (The "honk, honk" tag is hilariously wonderful but the masses don't quite get Brian's wacky side, so this is again going to be appreciated only by the cult fans.)

I mean, how could you market it? "The Beach Boys Love You--Brian Wilson goes back to the beach and takes his synth, ogles the girls and even pats one on her butt, gets hit on the head by a falling coconut, visits the solar system, and evokes strangely deep thoughts while immersing himself in the superficiality of American culture. How long can we let him go on this way? Buy The Beach Boys Love You and find out! Available in fine cut-out bins all across the country!!"

Sorry, couldn't resist. I love LOVE YOU, though it took awhile: but it was too "out there" to connect with the music-listening public then. They'd needed to more fully assimilate Dennis' music into the group some years earlier to have a chance to exist separately from their "oldies" image, and they didn't do it. Once he was "back," Brian was only inspired when he was quirky, leaving them no path to AM radio save for fluky oldies and songs deliberately crafted to sound like 1964. As with PS and SMiLE, Brian's best stuff pushed him beyond the context of the band, and away from "commercial" music.

Exactly my thoughts! I love this album, but sometimes I can only imagine what this album would've been like had it had a Pet Sounds/Today level of production on it. I get it, Love You is 10 years from those two albums so obviously there would be a huge gulf of production difference. But jeeeeez a song like 'I'll Bet He's Nice' is just begging for a wrecking crew backing track. 'Solar System' would be killer with a wall of strings behind it. 'The Night Was So Young' - I can hear it having some great 'Don't Talk' vibe going on in the instrumentals. I think had they done this, your promotional advertisement:

"The Beach Boys Love You--Brian Wilson goes back to the beach and takes his synth, gets hit on the head by a falling coconut, visits the solar system, and evokes strangely deep thoughts while immersing himself in the superficiality of American culture. How long can we let him go on this way? Buy The Beach Boys Love You and find out!"

...would sell like hotcakes. In concept this album is beyond incredible (the only song I can't stand is 'I Wanna Pick You Up'), and even just the way it is now I love listening to it. But I think it could've done so much better.

In a perfect world, Brian would revisit the master tapes, cut new Pet Sounds-esque instrumentals for this album as part of a major boxset release (keeping the original vocals of course, and elements of the original synths). Of course this will never happen...

Love you is genius!

That is a nightmare scenario.

Haha yeah, I can see it being completely unpopular. But it's something I would love hearing. One person's Summer In Paradise is another person's treasure I suppose ;)

Brian had "Time To Get Alone" and "Darlin'" on tap for Redwood when he got all but shaken down for those songs...Mike had "Almost Summer". Two of the best songs in Brian's canon versus another "summer" retread from Mike.

Pretty self-explanatory, isn't it?  :lol

DARLIN' was commandeered by Mike from a planned/produced Redwood single into a Beach Boys product.  The exact same thing doesn't necessarily apply to TIME TO GET ALONE

No doubt Brian did not foresee an issue coming with DARLIN' since the melody was already appropriated from an earlier outside production THINKING 'BOUT YOU BABY for Sharon Marie which came out as a Brian produced Capitol 45 a couple years year.  Ironically Sharon Marie (Esparza) was a girlfriend of Mike's then (i.e., it's OK for Brian to give away a song they composed to an outsider as long as it's one of Mike's girls LOL)

Redwood vocals were recorded for both songs but the ones for DARLIN' were erased, presumably forever, when the Beach Boys replaced them.  TIME TO GET ALONE was to be the Redwood B-side and their vocals weren't immediately erased since the song was not a Beach Boys priority like DARLIN' was. With the loss of DARLIN' as their entry onto Brother records Redwood abandoned their association (supposedly they really wanted a full album of songs, not just a 45, and Mike told Danny Hutton that Brian simply doesn't have time for that production), and TTGA as a Redwood product finished or otherwise was left behind.  The Redwood TTGA vocals can be found today on a Three Dog Night anthology CD.  Later on of course the Beach Boys needing Brian produced material for 20/20 album used that Redwood backing track for new vocals

<<Mike had "Almost Summer". Two of the best songs in Brian's canon versus another "summer" retread from Mike.
Pretty self-explanatory, isn't it?  LOL>>

Not to quibble but while DARLIN' and TIME TO GET ALONE are obviously far superior, a reminder that the writing credit for ALMOST SUMMER reads Brian Wilson, Mike Love & Al Jardine.   Have to give Brian credit for a summer retread, albeit an effective one, in my opinion.  I was 18 when it came out, thought it was fun.  Still do.

For more info on the Redwood situation, I've looked at and written a lot about that chapter over the years and this archived thread among others is as good a place to start as any since there are firsthand interviews with Danny Hutton and others available for those willing to plow through it who are interested... http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,18454.25.html (http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,18454.25.html) . Let's just say the Redwood episode was a pretty conspicuous absence from Mike's book in terms of what happened.

Both Darlin and TTGA were (and are) among Brian's best, where his full effort was going into writing and in the case of TTGA producing those tracks, and the music itself is both commercial and innovative, at a time when people think he checked out entirely...while Almost Summer from Mike couldn't hold a candle to either tune, as pleasant as it may be. My joking point was that the Boys wouldn't be grabbing the gold ring from Mike if they had barged in and berated him during a Celebration session and demanded he give them the song as happened with Redwood in '67. One is costume jewelry, the others are Cartier if not more elegant.

Mike Love's offense has a double thrust - #1 to get Brian off of Redwood time and onto the Beach Boys album production.  #2 came next, when he heard the recorded DARLIN' track (for Redwood) and realizing how good it was and wanting it back for the Beach Boys

those two things although separate motives were joined (and accomplished unfortunately) when he led the way in halting further Redwood recording.  Despite the DARLIN' title lyric having inspired Brian from Danny Hutton's conversational jargon

Do we know for sure that Redwood recorded vocals for Darlin'?  I haven't previously heard anything about wiping Redwood vocals and replacing them with the Beach Boys.  The track we have that was released on Sunshine Tomorrow appears to have been recorded as a Beach Boys track, right?  So Brian might have written the song for Redwood but recorded it only for the Beach Boys? 

At Bellagio AGD lists a Redwood "Darlin'" session: October 11, 1967. The cryptic marking "2 sessions" is noted. "Time To Get Alone" is listed with three sessions, the last two at Wally Heider's on October 15th--which is presumably the day when the "intervention" occurred.

So this was happening right in the middle of the WILD HONEY sessions, with the title song being readied imminently for release (Bellagio notes that the "Wild Honey"/"Wind Chimes" 45 was released on October 18th). Given that the initial nature of the new material the BBs were developing ("Wild Honey" had been completed and "Aren't You Glad" was in process) was showing a definite R&B inflection, "Darlin'" would most certainly have captured the interest of the band, given that they certainly seemed committed to counteracting the less-than-enthusiastic response SMILEY SMILE was receiving since its release in September.

In 2010, posters at the Hoffman board on this topic were skeptical that "Darlin'" was ever part of Brian's work with Redwood, using the logic that the song featured Mike Love lyrics. Of course Mike could have altered existing lyrics, which is something he'd done on more than one occasion previously. We may never know for sure, but as great a song as "Time To Get Alone" is, I personally can't see the BBs getting up in arms about it, as it doesn't really fit into the WILD HONEY groove. But "Darlin'" clearly did...so a confrontation over it, particuarly given the circumstances note above, would make sense.

Whatever did or did not go down at Wally Heider's, the BBs regrouped and spend the next three weeks completing WILD HONEY and it was rush-released (even for those days, when the time between LPs was ridiculously tight as compared with the present) on December 18th.

Just to clarify, first: What is in question about what happened at Heider's? Why is there doubt over what went down at Heider's? The "doubters" or doubter-in-chief more like it, had their say, and the facts combined with eyewitness accounts would serve to dismiss those doubts.

It's all been hashed out here (just one example: http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,18454.25.html (http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,18454.25.html) ), going beyond where the Hoffman board went in 2010 and with more detailed information. It was somehow argued here about the influence that spawned "Darlin", even after both Brian AND Danny Hutton explained it. So Brian did in fact start the song inspired by a phrase Danny would say all the time. Whatever lyrics went into it, Brian was already working on it. If Mike added lyrics to existing ones after he and Carl barged in to Brian's Redwood session and as Brian said "put the screws to me", maybe that's the question?

Too bad Mike's book didn't go into detail on it, especially with all this "apocryphal" nonsense that got shot down in the lead-up to Mike's book, or when his facts were being checked.

Beware of the sources and nine-year-old threads on Hoffman's forum. Especially when those who were actually there such as Brian and Danny have pretty much backed up what most rational people think happened.



EDIT: Don, I'm not directing that at you personally, I'm sorry if it reads that way. I'm just generally commenting and wondering where there are still questions lingering about this, apart from the writership or recording issues of Darlin. Sorry if it came out wrong.

I have no doubt that Heider's was a place filled with drama on October 15, 1967. My bad for writing a sentence that appeared to open that can of worms again.

That said, I think Mike was right to be pissed off that Brian was rewriting "Thinking 'Bout You Baby" and turning it from a wobbly Spector thing into a funky little R&B gem and was planning to give it someone else--even if he had the confidence that "Wild Honey" would chart well...which, in October 1967, is more like a 25-foot jump shot than a slam dunk.

I also think he handled it badly. But here's a question that appears never to have been raised: why was he (or Carl) unable to discuss the matter with Brian prior to the recording session at Heider's? AGD's logs indicate that the band had been together on October 4 for overdubs on "Aren't You Glad"...which was followed by a very short set of concert dates which seem to indicate that the touring band would've been back in LA a day or two before the "Darlin'" session(s). Would Mike or the other band members NOT have known about the upcoming sessions? Danny Hutton makes the creation of "Darlin'" seem like a spontaneous act on October 11...there are also references to Carl being at that session. A question unanswered here is how did Mike find out about it? In everyone's life, there are ways to find out things that can completely change the way one reacts to such a discovery.

While we have a good amount of documentation about what happened at Heider's, we still don't know the knowledge and actions of the key participants in the days immediately prior to the incident.

Keep in mind that none of this is meant to absolve Mike or Carl, but merely to point out that we don't know the exact reasons why they felt compelled to act as they did. There is something missing in the accounting of these events when someone has to make such a dramatic and precipitous intervention in a recording studio, confronting a family member whom either one of these guys should have been able to talk to privately.

As is often the case, the most useful portion of the earlier thread comes from Ray Lawlor, who reminds us (as Danny intimates indirectly) that Brian pretty much had to stop writing material for the group in order to extricate himself from the relentless pressure of sustaining the band creatively. By doing so, of course, he would cripple himself by developing a phobia about completing his songs. We might conclude that the Redwood incident was a catalyst for the first phase of such a strategy: slowing his work down to a trickle for the express purpose of jump-starting the other members into generating their own material. It was clear that until the rest of the band could do that, he'd remain a marked man.

Mike's actions at Heider's probably cemented such a notion for Brian. We probably owe the FRIENDS LP to the fact that Mike was away in India and Brian felt he could work without the usual pressure. (It even looks as though he accelerated his work schedule to get as much done as possible in the last days before Mike's return--the two songs where Mike is featured--"Meant For You" and "Anna Lee"--are among the latest recording sessions for FRIENDS.) He created a quirky little LP that was a thinly disguised solo project; when Mike returned, it was mostly fait accompli. (Note also that the final vocals for "Busy Doin' Nothin'" and the session for "Diamond Head," the last tracks to be completed for FRIENDS, were held while the band was on the road.)

That would've been a great model for Brian to pursue--and he remained productive into June, but FRIENDS bombed badly and whatever discomfort existed in the frenetic transition between SMILEY SMILE and WILD HONEY was actually muted in comparison to what happened in the second half of 1968, when a depression that Brian had managed to hold at bay finally came crashing down on him, upping the ante for the rest of the band to create the bulk of the music that comprised 20/20. It appears that he was away from the recording studio for the better part of four months.

So possibly the most loaded question about the Redwood incident is whether it contributed materially to Brian's emotional breakdown in the second half of 1968.  I'd wager it did, even though it was clearly a delayed reaction.