The Smiley Smile Message Board

...that says exactly what you think it will. Freed from the Brian 3LP thread, here it is in case you missed it:
http://www.theticker.tc/story/q-a-with-beach-boys-guitarist-al-jardine

Al Jardine: "We were just shocked. After all the momentum we created, that he would want to continue on alone – we didn't understand it. We had a second single (from 2012's “That's Why God Made the Radio”) and a DVD and a follow-up album ready to go. I can understand wanting to tour with your own people, but this was our legacy as a band. To be short-sighted enough to abandon that to do your own thing – it's a shame."

"Brian and I decided that, heck – we're the heart and soul of this thing anyway, we're going to continue to perform the legacy. We have the voices, we have the creative material, and we have a wonderful backing band that Brian has been using for years. You know – we ought to do a contest between the two lineups. (laughs). It could be fun for fans. It would be illuminating."

500% pure uncut Alan: "We might even have a car song on there, if you can believe it – the last one we'll ever do. I'd like to do a song about an electric car myself, but that might be a harder sell. (laughs)"

I'm picturing Brian closing his eyes, folding his arms, then fleeing the studio when it's proposed. I say go for it, it's the new Take Good Care of Your Feet. The new uh, Bill and Sue. Fine, guys - but I LIKE those tracks.

EDIT FOR SAFETY REASONS: The headline is a joke. Despite some sources claiming that there's blood in the water and reports that Al's been stockpiling blowgun darts. There is absolutely no truth to the rumor that Mike Love needs to watch his back.

I'm not into picking sides in the Beach Boys story, but I LOVE this from Al. While I've never been a Mike Love basher, I am pretty disappointed that he chose not to let the C50 thing continue.  I love the candidness and the cockiness from Jardine....the cockiness in the band's history has usually come from other sources, so it's time Al Jardine got his.

The electric car line charms me so much I'm inclined to give him my lunch money without a fight if he tried to bully me for it.

The idea of both bands playing is actually quite hilarious and wonderful, if they could stow their egos aside and do it for charity, work out set lists together that trade songs... it'd be so much fun! It'd raise a lot of money for charity and fuel fan arguments for years. Mike Love should take the bait, make a Facebook joke about it to show what a reasonable funny guy he is and find some charity to set it up to show how gracious and charitable he is. WIN/WIN, everybody.

Then they get together to do the encore numbers. Together.
 

Also, this thread will easily be 10 pages by tomorrow morning :)

''We're the heart and soul of this thing anyway, we're going to continue to perform the legacy. We have the voices, we have the creative material, and we have a wonderful backing band that Brian has been using for years''.

Ouch!! It's amusing to read this - particularly Al's 'we were all just shocked' line - and then to read back through all the posts on here from when all this first took place and see posters tying themselves in knots trying to justify Mike's behaviour i.e. 'well he did say it was only ever a temporary thing so it's perfectly fine for him to ditch his cousin [to whom he owes everything] like this so stop with all this oh-so-typical Mike bashing you fiends'.

Well, nope, sorry, no excuse - he behaved like a cold-hearted short-sighted nitwit and here's Al saying likewise.

See, all the Mike love defenders can get out following this interview.

Mike was wrong, he pissed people off and because of him the C50 tour will be the last time we will see those guys on stage together. He added his typical spice of negativity to the celebrations.

Thanks Mike, you did it again but at least you reached your "agreed set of dates".

Al is a hoot.

... Also, the title of this thread is by far one of the best things about it.

Yup. Unarguably accurate.

I couldn't resist! It was society what made me done it. I just had to put the words "Jardine" and "explosive" in a sentence together.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8120/8692700897_844c660540_m.jpg)

Al Jardine: fanning the flames of global conflict since 1961.

This is a really inspired idea from Al. It would be so amazing to have a battle of the bands contest between the two groups.

I'm grateful for the link, as I find Al's comments intriguing, illuminating, and generally not the kind of thing one usually gets in the public arena, particularly when big dollars and corporate interests are at play.  I give Al credit for being forthcoming.  Good on him, for that.

That said, beyond thanking ontor for the head's-up (and Al for sharing), I have no interest in making my way through the nuclear explosion of mudslinging, one-upmanship and personal opinion being traded as fact that is sure to come of this.

Try to be decent to one another, folks!

Yeah, there's no reason to be mean to some of the only people on the planet who want to discuss Adult/Child as much as you do just because these guys have rough relationships at times. We don't have to actually emulate them. Tho I do kinda want to sue some of you. Just a little bit of suing. Especially you over there... YEAH YOU! I HATE YOU! I HATE YOU MOST OF ALL!

After siding with Mike for the better part of the 70's and 80's it's nice to see Al side with Brian. (Although I hope it isn't just because Brian is where the credibility is at these days.) But man I am psyched.

Yup, Alan was sooooooooooooooooo upset about what happened that it's taken him all of eight months to say anything concrete about it.

"We were just shocked. After all the momentum we created, that he would want to continue on alone – we didn't understand it." Odd that, being shocked by something that had been printed some three months earlier in Rolling Stone.

Oh, and if there's "a follow-up album ready to go"... why are they wasting time in the studio ?  Just release it.

  :angry  :thumbsup

Wow, this fake cinema poster just made my day! Thank you, Mr. Pertawst! As usual, I dig your creativity. Also, I 2nd Wirestone about the title of the thread - it's cool & comedic at the same time!

I took Al to mean he was shocked to learn that Michael felt the way he did, when Love first made it known to the guys in the group, not that he was surprised when it was later announced publically.  That would just be silly.

But I said I wouldn't get involved.   :p

Yeah so it was said three months prior that they'd end it at a certain point (which Mike then duly did) - but for God's sake, that was before the tour/album became the huge success that it did, and for all that to then seemingly count for nothing is just weirdly unemotional. To just blindly go along with pre-arranged plans regardless of changes in circumstances is just plain cold.

Seriously they need to do this!

Another album ready???

Despite posts in other threads for discussion to "move on", the C50 break-up controversy is going to linger for years to come. And Mike set himself up perfectly to continue being the villain of the ongoing saga called the Beach Boys.

The article below just makes me laugh.

From Prefixmag.com (yes, they get the number of discs wrong-unless they know something we don't)).
Ironically, the authors' name is Winston Cook-Wilson.

http://www.prefixmag.com/news/new-7-disc-beach-boys-box-set-made-in-california-d/73961/

"Ludicrous news arises from the camp of Beach Boys singer Mike Love, who is both the legal owner of the band's name and the force perpetually hell-bent on shaming it. Love’s devised another scheme for making money off the Boys' brand, which will hopefully be more foolproof than last year’s aborted 50th anniversary tour, in the midst of which Love “fired” three original members of the group, including Brian Wilson. Love’s now touring a instantiation of the “Beach Boys” absent Wilson, Al Jardine and David Marks, as he did for years before the ill-fated reunion attempt.

Those guys, meanwhile, are recording an album of new material with help from Jeff Beck, which is empirical evidence of the fact that they are interested in being real musicians.Though Mike has been loath to unify and advance the band creatively since around the time Pet Sounds was released, he is happy to exploit the artistry with which he had so little to do at every turn. Thus we have the impending six-disc box set Made in California, featuring demos, alternate takes, live performances and some rare unreleased material from the early sixties.

Apparently, the set includes a 1959 essay by Brian called “My Philosophy” and “handwritten, yearbook-style inscriptions” from Mike and the three guys he just dumped.Though the whole idea of the thing makes one a bit sick to the stomach, the box set is guaranteed to have a lot of  wonderful music on it. But only you can decide whether or not you feel comfortable giving Mr. Love your hard-earned cash. Made in California is due out August 27th on Capitol."

Not so - by then the tour had already been extended beyond the original 50 US dates.

There's a tour to promote. This subject was clearly going to come up. Mike has been asked about it, and given his opinion and take on the situation. Why shouldn't Al?


Things change -- especially over a quarter of a year. There was no reason Mike couldn't have rescheduled or canceled his dates with Bruce as a goodwill offering to keep the full band going. Believe me, concert dates change and disappear all the time, and for far flimsier reasons. For that matter, if the contracts were truly ironclad, why couldn't Mike do them, or take a hiatus from the C50 organization, and then return to the full group in the winter or spring? Given that he extended the dates already, Al and Brian and Dave may have assumed he was truly interested in making the band a going concern. But Sea World calls!


Because -- if I'm reading this right -- it was a Beach Boys album. The full lineup isn't together anymore. Brian is now making his own record.

FWIW, AJ does say "If Mike wants to come back, it'd be wonderful and we'd love to have him. But I don't think at this point it looks like its going to happen."

IMO, neither camp has burned any bridges and both sides always seem to leave the door open to future get togethers. Whether and when that might happen is another thing. While there's been expressions of disappointment, confusion, etc. at least things seem to be calm on the surface.

Very true. I never would have imagined that the C50 shows would happen, f'instance.

I don't think it's Brian's credibility. Al is going to side with whomever lets him into their band. I think Al's comments reflect this, which is why I dismiss a lot of them.

He's been pretty vocal about Mike Love's actions even before the final London show

So it's a Beach Boys album, and it's ready to roll, according to ACJ. So, keep the momentum going: release it.

However... strange than no-one else has so much as hinted at this finished followup just sitting there waiting to be released. My guess - and this is all it is, and worth about that much - is that Alan's referring to the cuts left over after Capitol chose those released.

Sure, makes sense that those would be the foundation for a followup release... I'd love to find out more song titles.

 It was mentioned twice in the other thread as it's hard not to notice! READY TO GO??! READY TO GO, ALAN!?!? You just know he thought for SURE Waves of Love would be on it.

I think he meant that they were set to record another album, not release one.

There was no record company willing to do so. According to Jon Stebbins, Capitol took the option of a second BB album off the table after Mike blew up the group. There was no longer any functional collection of musicians to promote it.

Lotta dead bands and musicians keep releasing albums.

Brian Wilson ain't dead yet and I'm sure Capitol ran the numbers and opted for a Brian and friends release. At least they could get out there and promote it to positive press instead of pieces from lazy journalists rewriting the fired stuff. It's just bizness.

Plus there's the whole matter of Brian and Joe Thomas owning that sh*t, right? Not surprising how they would choose to use it, then.

Actually I'm going to contradict myself here somewhat and point out that - much as I love Al - he isn't always on the ball re, you know, facts. Didn't he give a much-discussed-on-here interview recently about Smile, in which almost every single thing he said was either completely factually inaccurate or, even worse, just plain utter bollocks.

Anyone who says they wouldn't go to this hypothetical showdown is a liar

It would be beyond epic! WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEN!

It would be awesome! And we could take wagers on which band members would be in both groups, or switch between them. (My money is on Cowsill sitting in for a tune or two with BW, and there's no way Jeff can avoid adding some "woo-woos" to Mike's group.)

They really should consider doing it in a year or so, after they do their own thing. Special guests. A great cause. Rumors of a full reunion for months afterwards. Summer 2014, Hollywood Bowl.

Then do a really cheapo DVD of only 1/4th of the songs played, riddled with overdubs and shots of me in the audience with my mouth open. That's entertainment!

BATTLE OF THE BEACH BOYS. Only one will remain standing. Al Jardine will go feral and leave teeth marks all over Bruce Johnston's precious legs.

I took the "a follow-up album ready to go" comment as meaning, not that an album was recorded/mixed/and ready to be released, but that the terms were agreed to and the papers were signed. But, again, that's typical Jardine. He is a total lock to ALWAYS say something in an interview that causes one to scratch their head.

But, as confusing or vague that the "follow-up album ready to go" comment may be, it does raise a very interesting question as to how far the negotiations went (factually, not hearsay), if people did back out, and if it is a dead issue, meaning for the next year or so.

Mike's group would focus on surf and car songs and the early hits, Brian's on deep cuts. "Battle of The Beach Boys: Carl & The Passions V. The Pendletones"

It should be the opposite. Mike will do "Till I Die" and "You Still Believe in Me" (which he has!) and Brian will rock out on "Shut Down" and "Salt Lake City."

And a million fans' heads will explode at once ...

Really, really, really... I expected better than this canard so old it's fraying at the edges. That's exactly the kind of nonsense I'd expect from the more infantile, less knowledgeable posters.

AGD would be rocking out in the first row, don't let him tell you otherwise.

Could you imagine the bartering for setlists?

Ok, I'll trade you "Don't Back Down" for "Shut Down."

You can do "I Get Around" but that means we get "Surfin' USA."

THE HELL IT DOES!

It's a really fun concept that could get a lot of press and positive attention if they did it with some class and style an- oh yeah. Never mind.

They would have to try and sabotage each other's shows.

Hat snatching, back smacking, mic stealing, stool kicking, shorts pulling, autocue smashing mayhem.

The best bit would be when Mike sneaks up to the mixing board during Heroes and Villains and starts screwing with the autotune.

Or in a tender tribute to obsessive fans, talks over Brian's performance of Heroes and Villains with a Wilson-scripted putdown.

Bruce with a broken bottle in one hand, a devastatingly well-adjusted mic stand in the other...

Totten and Darian goin' at each other with shivs.

Pay per view GOLD.

AGD finally addresses the smiley smile class system

(http://arkhonia.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/vlcsnap-rnrhof-love2.jpg?w=500&h=375)

"Any time, any place... ALAN."

I wonder if he'll respond. They could release taunt tapes in the months leading up to it. OOOOOOO YEAAAAAAH SNAP INTO A SLIM JIMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!

First off, I still feel as though Mike Love had the right to do whatever he wanted. Do I think it sucks that he didn't wanna continue working with Brian and Al?? Surely. Do I think he's kind of an asshole? Surely.

But here's the other thing. I don't know how the license is renewed or how they deal with it, but as of now Mike Love and Bruce Johnston are still out there touring as The Beach Boys while it seems Brian Wilson and Al Jardine haven't done anything to stop them. Maybe behind the scenes they are, but I'm not sure about that.


Andrew, do you really think it would be sensible to release a Beach Boys album of brand new songs if the group has broken up? Would that behoove either the group or Capitol to do that?

Also, why are you insuating that The Beach Boys are a "dead band"? Aren't they touring this summer? You protested that point a few weeks ago. Mike and Bruce are The Beach Boys, right? Or do you only pull that card out when it suits you?

And also, since you are really good at ignoring posts that make you look like an asshole, I doubt you'll answer this one. But here goes anyways:

DO YOU QUESTION THE VERACITY OF JON STEBBINS REPORTING THAT THE GROUP WAS OFFERED A SECOND NEW ALBUM BY CAPITOL BUT THAT MIKE LOVE TORPEDOED IT?

Do we need harsh interrogation lights?

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/24/Jackwebbbbigseptemberman.jpg/280px-Jackwebbbbigseptemberman.jpg)

"Tell it to the judge, pal. I'm sure he'll be REALLY interested in those 2004-5 setlists..."

Hmmm, page 3. Ok, boys. I want a clean fight. No razors, no nonsense. I want citations, I want passionate argument, stirring invective, and jokes involving Big Sur. If you find yourself somehow having strong opinions, just imagine a universe where other people have them too and they seem to think they are just as valid as yours despite what people say on message boards. No appeals to authority, no rehashing of the Beach Boys Family and Friends fiasco under penalty of boring people to death. Striped shirts and LSD are optional. And.... FIGHT!

It's obvious that AGD would believe that Stebbins is part of the "more infantile, less knowledgeable."

How often Al has spoken about this, or how long has passed with or without comment, has nothing to do with how he feels. Nobody is apparently knocking Al’s door down to do interviews, and the interviews all of these guys do don’t always get into much detail anyway. More importantly, I don’t even get the feeling Al is “sooooooo upset” about this. Sounds like he’s bummed about it, as many fans are that aren’t more enthusiastic and celebratory about Mike’s “agreed upon” schedule, but he’s gotten over it and is doing other stuff now. Sounds like Al is less bummed about it than I and many fans are!

Concerning the “shock”, I think it’s been well established that the “shock” wasn’t a case of the others not being aware Mike had booked some shows, but more to do with their likely unrealistic optimism that Mike would want to continue the reunion in the not-too-distant future. It has been established that firm plans were unclear until pretty late in the game. I just find it so, so perplexing that fans, especially really enthusiastic, scholarly fans, can be so negative towards Al for being too optimistic or unrealistic when the topic of that optimism was continuing an awesome reunion.

As for the album being “ready to go”, my guess is Al was loosely referring to many tracks being recorded and ready to go. He was using hyperbole to describe the general idea that plenty of stuff was ready to go. I don’t think he meant a sequenced, mixed, mastered album was ready to go. Further, even if an album was fully mastered and ready to go, why would anyone want to release another “Beach Boys” album when the lineup on the album has broken up and splintered into separate factions? The label would likely find such a scenario confusing and difficult to promote. Venues/promoters would likely see additional confusion as a Mike/Bruce lineup would presumably be promoting an album by a band of the same name but would only be representing 2/5 of the band on the album. I think it’s ridiculous to presume that it would be at all realistic to release a second “reunion” lineup Beach Boys album under the current circumstances of the band being splintered again.

:lol

 "the legendary Georg Ludwig von Trapp"

I don't think a full perspective of the gravity of the tour was attainable at that stage. Final receipts from the full tour in terms of dollars were also not available. Not all of the data was in, and clearly the feelings of the fans and even the band members had not been fully guaged.

Also, as far as I'm concerned, needing or wanting to extend the tour is evidence that a further extension was warranted and doable. :)

So after Mike has publicly stated that he doesn’t currently want to do more reunion dates with the full lineup, after he has expressed mixed feelings about the recording process and success of last year’s reunion album, mixed feelings about the makeup of the touring band, and a desire to only work with Brian under a specific set of guidelines, and after Brian has already touted recording solo material, in the midst of all of this, while Mike and Bruce tour as “The Beach Boys”, it seems realistic and appropriate to release another “reunion” album? That makes no sense. It also ignores that Mike would have to sign off on the release of said theoretical album, which I doubt he would. So it’s not even logistically possible for Brian and Al to say, “Fine, Mike won’t tour with us, we’ll show him by releasing another Beach Boys album that includes him but that we can’t tour behind to promote.” Whaaa?

I don’t think there are a plethora of examples of a band putting out an additional “reunion” album less than a year after said reunion breaks up, not of everyone’s equal accord, and while 2/5 of that reunion band continues to tour under the band’s name. I’d buy such an album, that would be awesome. But I can see why such a move would be a logistical nightmare for numerous reasons.

It just seems like a pointless distraction, just reaching for things to be sarcastic about while sliding goalposts around.

It's kinda sad Mike missed out on... The Last Car Song. You know it needs the nasal! He should be ALL over that and every other rateyourmusic review is going to point that out.

Gawd, remember those interviews last year?

RAZ: Do you sometimes think, God, why did we waste our time ever fighting?

LOVE: Yeah, I do. I think of definite mistakes made because of ego and whatever reasons and I just didn't - wasn't thinking clearly enough. And so I'm glad all that stuff is in the past, and we're on the same page together harmony wise. So we're all about harmony these days, both individually and musically.

RAZ: A lot has been made, you know, over the years, of the differences that the two of you have had. But what do you share? What do Mike Love and Brian Wilson share?

WILSON: Fifty years of music.

(LAUGHTER)

LOVE: Make it 70.

WILSON: That's a lot of odd years of - you know, to be together.

LOVE: Yeah.

WILSON: And we still love each other.

LOVE: That's right.

It's almost as if there's only one possible way to settle this score once and for all...

hmmmm

Put vague lookalikes in a cage?

(http://images.quickblogcast.com/3/7/7/7/8/296264-287773/CageMatch.jpg?a=71)

Fig. 3535. The Love Between Cousins.

Well I AM feeling smug as it seems increasingly like I'm the only one who's heard this ready to go follow-up.

It's actually a double album and includes a couple of reworkings of songs originally recorded for tWGMTR. There's quite a bit of auto tune as you might expext but the line-up is also slightly different as it features John Cowsill and Scott Totten from The M&B Show and is otherwise members of the BW band.

There's not been (and won't be) a supporting tour to promote it.

It's a live thing that's been around a month or three now… surprised more people here haven't bought it…

Hi, this is Al, this scene takes place at a typical Beach Boys practice session we're in the midst of preparing for the last C50 show when a feud breaks out between Brian and Mike

"Alright you guys we have a show this weekend and Bruce and I could be shagging groupies, so what do you say we go over the ending of reunion contract one more time?"

When we start getting bored of this one, somebody ask Bruce on BBB what he makes of the battle of the bands idea.

Nope - Jon is a reliable commentator. If he says that, it's credible.

Thing is, he didn't say that: according to Wirestone, what he said was, Capitol took the option of a second BB album off the table after Mike 'blew up the group' (which he didn't). Which I read as, the company declined to pick up the option when they realised that Mike was sticking to the pre-arranged gameplan. Less emotive, to be sure, and a less satisfying strapline, but more accurate.

BTW, no need to shout, dear - I'm not deaf and it's bad for your blood pressure.


Again, nope - he's exceedingly knowledgeable, always makes a valid, balanced point and writes in excellent English, none of which the likes of OSD can manage.

I'd pay top dollar....

They need to do it exactly like the Sammy Hagar/David Lee Roth showdown, fiasco tour!

Sparks will fly!!!!

It'd be an almost brilliant way to twist this negativity and bad press into fun, $$$, and make the competition a bit friendlier. Why the hell not? Mike could book everybody at the Super-8 Motel, Brian could pay for a fleet of flying buses with chocolate chip cookie dough dispensers. Shake hands like gentlemen, end by sharing the stage on Fun, Fun, Fun.

Carl Wilson Foundation? Think about it. Even if you need fencing masks for negotiations.

I say there's no better premiere venue for this historic showdown than SeaWorld!

for a show of this magnitude we will likely need a couple of opening bands on the undercard, maybe California Saga (with the Wilsons/Jardines entering from one side of the stage, the Loves from the other just like their parents used to do) vs. Jessie and the Rippers

they can each have a choice of one hologram of Carl and Dennis each to choose from as well...Brian should choose Dennis that way he can sing "You are so beautiful" all sad and then the audience would go "aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh". Mike can use Carl to sing "Keepin the summer alive"...

Can we have a hologram Dennis kick over his drums and beat the crap out of Mike?

Shamu will be delighted.

 :lol

Van Dyke Parks delivering the let's get ready to rumble(TM) bit at the start.

:)

It happened on the strip where the road is wired

actually yes we can,,,,we'll hook up a string to the drum set find a hologram of Dennis kicking and pull the string as if he's kicking it and we can have Dennis walk back stage and have the voice of Mike yelling as if getting beat up with sound effects of things breaking etc..

Grown men would weep tears of joy.

To pump himself up for the event, Mike can play a loop of this interview as he rehearses his pantomime gestures or works out or meditates or whatever.

"Brian and I decided that, heck – we're the heart and soul of this thing anyway, we're going to continue to perform the legacy. We have the voices, we have the creative material, and we have a wonderful backing band that Brian has been using for years."

we're the heart and soul of this thing anyway... click.

we're the heart and soul of this thing anyway... click.

we're the heart and soul of this thing anyway... click.

we're the heart and soul of this thing anyway... click.

ominous music rises.

(http://cdn.licklibrary.com/~/media/LL/Uploads/news/T/The%20Beach%20Boys-MikeLove.ashx)

we have the voices... click.

we have the voices... click.

we have the voices... click.

we have the voices... click.

(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/11/01/article-2226196-15C9EBB6000005DC-59_964x641.jpg)

Fig. 3636. Survivors cling to each other for support after The Battle of The Beach Boys

Odd that people can't accept that Mike torpedoed the group. They could have done more. And he chose not


I probably had to "shout" because you have a knack for ignoring posts when they show you don't know what you are talking about sometimes. Such as this one:

On this point I don't agree with Alan..... I'd say Mike qualifies as much more a heart and soul segment than Alan ever has.... I love Alan, but Mike has done much much more for The Beach Boys.... The numbers back it up. There is no comparison

Them's fightin' words.

But I do love Al and value him just as much as Mike, but c'mon......

OK, we can take this argument up at SeaWorld

By the time BAD vs M&B gets done, the Hollywood Bowl will look like downtown Metropolis after Superman vs Zod.

Brian is the heart
Carl was the soul
Mike is the nose
Bruce is the shorts
Dennis was the c*ck

leaving Alan as the... uh, teeth of the group? haircut? Feet?

it still kinda leaves them soulless and cockless, which is no way to go through life.

I'm afraid to ask what David is, seeing the lack of many body parts left to choose from

An appendix, according to Murry.

Back to the interview, I notice Al is thinking along the same lines of some people here about another album: "I've done some covers of some iconic songs, like “Give Peace a Chance” and “If I Had a Hammer,” for Bono's ONE foundation. I'd like to do more music like that while I still have a voice. If I could get enough material along those lines, I would do another (solo album) in a heartbeat."

Lesse, how about "CIA Man" and "New Amphetamine Shriek," Al?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3V98lnJX1k

I hate to be a part of this thread - but the first thing that popped into my head when I saw the thread title was that if there was indeed a battle of the bands, and it was up to a general audience to decide, I'd bet money that M&B would "win".

Depends on the material. And how many leads Al had. Man still sounds amazing. And I don't know if you saw the C50 shows, but the reaction Brian got on stuff like IJWMFTT makes it pretty clear that most of the crowd knew his story and were excited to see him.

My Beach Boy can beat up your Beach Boy!

I'm actually surprised Al hasn't done an album of folk standards already. It seems like just the sort of thing he'd be doing, right up his "tweak an oldie" alley and along the lines of Postcard. If he gets started now he can make a 2018 release date easy.

See, but that's not the general audience somehow. You shouldn't count the audience that attends Beach Boys gigs as the audience that attends Beach Boys gigs. You should assume they are total rubes brought there by a Tom Cruise movie for the most part. Only M&B connects with that audience. Or something. That way you can feel special, clued-in, in the know and above those clods wearing Hawaiian shirts. Never mind that the music may even be just as important to them or they may be just as fanatical about Pet Sounds or obsessive about Holland, we just have to pretend it's still the Full House era. 

The only ones who would "win" such a hypothetical scenario would be the audience! What a treat it would be! It's fruitless to try to compare art or score it on points and then expect everybody else to agree with you.

I saw two C50 shows. I came away with the impression that fans (besides the hardcores - I'd say that's around 20% or so), would have been just as happy had it been Mike and Bruce. Mike has the recognizable voice, Mike puts on the show. I'd rather pay to see Brian/Al/Dave once than get to see ten free M&B shows, I'm just commenting on what I think most people really want from a show.

(http://i1256.photobucket.com/albums/ii496/Generation42/TheHands.jpg)

The hands.

That gave me a great laugh. Thanks!

I don't how much of that is the truth though.  It's a valid perception of what could be the truth I'll grant you that.  However, my read on the situation is completely different from yours.  Ever since Mike Love decided not to go forward with the C50, Camp Wilson has been nothing but nasty in my opinion towards Mike Love.  It seems as if every press release that comes from that side of the room has something negative to say about Mike Love and his decision not to go forward with the C50.  Up until this point I believed that Al Jardine actually was playing things a bit more down the middle of the road but with these latest comments, is it fair to say that he too is none too happy with Mike Love at the moment? 

I'm not taking sides here and Brian and Al have every right to feel the way they do without being either praised for it or vilified for it.   I just don't see how any of this is doing anything but creating more acrimony between all parties.

One last bit of food for thought while I'm at it though: Bruce Johnston said there was/is no competition.  Despite those comments and with BAD about to get ramped up and going on it's way things are turning out just about as I figured.

My most people can beat up your most people. :-D I really got the impression that a sizable number of the folks at each of the two shows I went to we're very aware of who BW was and what his story was. I've also seen Al, and frankly he sounds more like a Beach Boy than Brian or Mike these days. Not a frontman type, though.

Mike did them wrong. Mike pays the price. That's the way it works.

I'm very fortunate and grateful the 50 year reunion tour and album release occurred :) The memories and excitement will last forever.

They're old, what do you expect

OSD, Ron, Wirestone, AGD, and ghost will be the judges for the battle of the bands.

Oh, oh, there he goes again...time to change the meds and, you've all been warned-proceed at your own risk.

Instead of Sea World I'd suggest they battle it out aboard that oldies cruise. If the contest ends in a draw, they can settle it with a game of shuffleboard.  ;D

And here, in two sentences, AGD summarizes the entire debate. For folks who think Mike is being unfairly maligned, there is a clear and obvious difference between "blowing up the group" and "sticking to the pre-arranged gameplan."

For those disappointed by Mike's choices, those two things are one and the same. That's certainly how I see them. By sticking to the gameplan, Mike returned to the status quo. And by returning to the status quo, he destroyed a magnificent touring ensemble that delighted audiences around the globe and recorded a rather remarkable album.

And that's the whole debate right there. Mike and his guys take the first approach, and talk about it in rational, businessman terms. Brian and Al take the second, and look at it in a very emotional, vibe-based way.

Well, I think some of us in that group would actually get along pretty well. I'm rather fond of AGD and Ron, and OSD doesn't grate on my nerves the way he does on others. Ghost ... well, the problem would be getting him to show up.

Lean Mean Al Jardine.
He rules.

I had to put a wildcard judge in there.... ;D  Bill Tobelmen is the alternate for ghost.

I made that exact point in another thread when people kept throwing the "Mike met his set amount of dates" excuse at me.

Well if the whole thing was just some cash grab to milk the 50 years milestone well I guess Mike was right, do the dates and return to seaworld,  but if it meant more.. which it did to the rest of the band then Mike lived up to his reputation. There is is no way to spin it. Mike's actions were upsetting to anyone who wanted this tour to be from the heart, sadly for Mike it was all business.

Right here sweetheart

I didn't know you cared!

I think it's obvious what the stakes should be. The winning group earns the right to use the BB name in perpetuity.

You might have missed this one OSD:

Watch the kidney punches fellas

And the eternal indentured servitude of Foskett.

Read, chewed up and already spit out -  has the usual rancid agdster aftertaste. :P

Maybe Al does go with whoever will have him in their band, but I wonder how much of the Mike-Al bond/alliance in the 70s was due to the fact they were both sober. You see the Largo show and Carl and Dennis are completely wasted. Brian, it's hard to tell because Brian could seem "off" even if sober.

Al was going to have much more in common with Mike. If the Wilsons had been sober, or even confined their drinking/drug use to after hours, things might have been different.


Yes, compilations. The Beach Boys have a pretty big one coming out soon.

I'm so there.  As long as the encore is "Cassius Love Vs. Sonny Wilson"!

Cheers,
Jon Blum

...Can I just say that I just really like the sense that there's a "we" there?  I hope Brian and Dave feel the same way.  It's a nice change to the dynamic that, rather than Mike and Bruce being the in-group with the others out in the wilderness (i.e, most of 1998-2011), now *they're* inviting Mike and Bruce to come back to *them*.  :-)

If we can get two functioning groups out of this, to me that's a more interesting arrangement than the old status quo.  Me, I'd see either one of them when they next get down to Sydney...

Cheers,
Jon Blum

Your restraint is impressive.

Well my bone of contention with this whole issue would be to question whether or not it was sound business for the C50 to end?  I mean you could make the argument that by ending the C50, The Beach Boys turned down opportunities to explore a number of different ventures that not only would've netted them money but also would've helped raise the profile of their brand further to modern audiences.  My gauge on the situation is one of the reasons a number of fans are still miffed is that we've never really gotten the explanation we are seeking as to why it was necessary to end the C50.  We've gotten a lot of speculation and even some really good solid comments from those who would have more insight into the situation than the average joe but nothing in terms of an official statement as to why the "good vibrations" had to end.

Again I don't think Shady's necessarily wrong in his most recent posting with references to "cash grab" and motivations.  However to connect the dots on that one we would need crucial pieces of information that either haven't been brought forward yet or perhaps may have be simply the figment of someone's imagination wishing to spin events the way they want to see them spun.

...But when the sales of the Beach Boys' last album were heavily driven by a highly publicized reunion tour, and indeed a high profile QVC gig, neither of which the current touring Beach Boys would be capable of equalling with only two of the five names attached to it...  Can you see why they'd think an album without the full band around to support it wouldn't be such a good investment?

They're willing to put out Brian's solo album instead, but no doubt that has less of a price tag attached to it from Capitol's POV...

Cheers,
Jon Blum

I don't usually comment on these heated discussions, but since I kind of ignited this one, I'm going to just put my two cents in.

We all know Mike didn't want C50 to continue and we know what reasons he gave. But, to me, it comes down to priorities. I don't see how there was any legal reason, or even an ethical reason, why Mike and Bruce couldn't have changed their plans. It happens all the time in the 'biz.  I think Mike faced a dilemma. On the one hand, he could go back to the way things were... with Mike Love up front and center, playing comfortable venues with people he likes and riding on the music's past reputation.  On the other hand, he could go forward with the big, new opportunities that were being presented. Opportunities which were, if C50 was any indication,  much more Brian-centric both creatively and personally, and less to his liking. He chose to stay in the comfortable past rather than go forward and explore new things. It's his prerogative, as a performer, to do that. What disappoints me is the fact that he takes the Beach Boys name with him.

I think that's the thing that surprised and disappointed Brian and Al. When those kinds of opportunities surface, you hope to at least give them some consideration with a group decision. But, in this case, Mike Love single handedly decided what the future of the band would be. Al kept mentioning the band's legacy, and that's the very thing that Mike has missed. There was an opportunity for the band, that he claims to be an advocate for, to end their run with a higher degree of excellence. Instead, it's back to County Fairs and Sea World.  

As for Al, Brian and Dave... there's no reason for them to sit around crying in their beer while Mike goes out an does his thing.  I'm looking forward to the upcoming album and the tour/s.

And, you'd better believe, if that Battle of the Band thing develops, I'll be front and center with popcorn!

Well stated!
When I compare both acts side by side in my mind, I keep coming back to the notion that they are most certainly better all together.

Sad as it is, I can understand Mike's path. Touring with 15 band members (and all their baggage) is more strenuous, in pretty much every regard, than the current 6 piece touring unit.

I've seen Mike and Bruce since the split, and they were excellent. They were, however, not the life changing show the C50 shows were.

You think there's a chance there will ever be another reunion? It seems like now it's impossible. For another reunion, Mike will have to back down to put the Beach Boys back together.

All of this would have required new contracts, so everything is negotiable: including band size, conditions for performance, recording conditions, bus size and the minimum length of Bruce's shorts.  If Jon Stebbins is right (and no one seems to think he isn't) Mike didn't even allow things to get to the negotiation table. Mike's priority was to do things the way Mike likes it. And, in making that choice, he also single handedly determined the future of The Beach Boys.

IMO, of course.

Everybody knows Mike and Bruce we're going to return to their incarnation of The Beach Boys eventually. The issue on our part..or at least mine is how Mike went about his business.

Booking M&B shows a week or two into the C50 tour, turning extra dates, the ridiculous press release. Wouldn't it be nice (no pun intended) if the tour ended in a gracious manor and the door was left open for possible shows down the line, ten to 15 shows from the original Beach Boys every summer, a nice easy schedule for Brian. Nah, never when Mike Love is involved. The man is a genuine psycho.

After 50 plus years these dudes are still finding ways to fight... Damn if only Carl was here to keep the peace and Dennis was here to kick the sh*t out of someone!

As a stand alone act, I like what Mike does. He tours fantastic songs and does them justice. But considering how much better they could be, and the fact that the writer of those fantastic songs would like to be involved, I don't think anyone can make a really compelling arguement to justify the Lovesters actions.
I'm excited for Mike's response to Al.
:old

Actually taking up Al's suggestion -- and ending with a long joint encore -- would be great for morale and Mike's publicity.  And he can keep calling the shots with his lean band.  His band wouldn't sound as good as Brian's -- but it would sound better than most people think it would, hence giving his touring band more credibility with the press and those who tend to look their nose at them.

I believe Mike and Bruce kept playing corporate dates with their lineup during the C50 tour.

Without getting into the rights and wrongs of the whole thing again, Mike likes to play 100 shows a year and Brian doesn't on a regular basis. They were never going to be compatible in the long term.

I don't consider the interview explosive, not even provocative.  Al is expressing feelings that are fairly well known to people that follow the group, although I don't know about the second album. 

Mike Love has a band that is like a well oiled machine, and the families that depend financially on the band for their jobs.  He's an old guy and fairly set in his ways, and undoubtedly didn't like dealing with Brian and Co.  I would have liked to see the band stay together but keeping that much ego and lingering resentment together for more than a year, with all the competing economic interests, is a tall order.

If Al and Brian want to prove themselves superior, release an incredible album that is a hit with the critics and fans. 

There were lots of ways to do it without Brian having to play every single date. Mike chose none of them.

This.

It's an interview that will live on in Beach Boys history! Explosive is underselling it. Al threw the gauntlet down.

This is wartime now.

I think - and this isn't even close to a new angle: been advanced here before - that if you read between the lines of his comments since 9/28/12, there was something, and a substantial something, about the whole C50 setup that wasn't to Mike's liking and that this feeling grew as the tour progressed, until he thought "enough". You could, were one feeling exceedingly simplistic, sum it up thus:

Band agrees to 50(ish) dates...
Tour is obviously looking good, great reviews...
Band is asked to extend tour 50%...
All agree...
More offers on the table...
Band is asked to extend tour again...
Mike declines, which (apparently) blindsides everyone else as they thought he'd just play along again.

Let's ignore the pre-arranged and well-documented dates, and - if possible, although I realise for some this is an almighty stretch, but let's be adults here for once - lay aside the "because he's an asshole" knee-jerk response... what transpired over the summer to make Mr. Positivity turn down the chance to carry on having a great time and get plaudits for it (for a change) ?  Had to be something substantial, and it's been hinted at in interviews yet remains just out of reach.

But then, according to a faction here, when he sat out, it's not The Beach Boys. That was the whole point of C50 - all the band there, all the time. And dammit, they were.

It really is a wonderful idea from Mike's point of view and as suggested, band members swapping around all the time in different configurations. keep touring as is, do a charity show together and book the Hollywood Bowl! Less compromise, good press, do good for a few great causes, everybody throw their pet cause in. Raising money for lice reconstruction or water desalinization or whatever their kicks are this week.

Of course it isn't explosive or provocative. If Al Jardine were either he wouldn't be Al Jardine as much. It's biz as usual and that's why the first line of the first post is what it is. Hey, I can't help it if I'm a quantity over quality jokeslinger. Always leave them wanting less.

Still, if Mike had any brains he'd seize on this inspired bit of Jardine whimsy and make for one helluva weird chapter in all the unwritten books.

I guarantee when this thing happens there will Brighton Beach style riots that accompany it between the fans.

Al has given much more explosive interviews in the past. :)

He seems to be laughing throughout this one and is none too serious.

This is deathly serious friend, I'll see you at the riots

We'll always remember this day... the day Al Jardine laughed. The cities will run red with blood. Children will cry out in the dark for Kokomo.

But there will be no Kokomo my friend, only the black unholy laugh of Alan Charles "Al" Jardine. Suffocating you in a sensible shirt. Strangling your throat into contortions of Kingston Trio numbers. Prepare for the plague and the constant screaming and shrieky screeching of the obnoxious crows. Clutch the your breast your postcards from California.

Mike response by Friday? Sunday?

Even the "faction" you're talking about seem to have been able to accept a Beach Boys without Brian for most of the band's touring career from 1965-98... as long as there's enough other band members there.  A touring Beach Boys with Mike, Al, Bruce, and Dave, with Brian playing selected gigs (e.g. QVC round 2) would have been an option...

Cheers,
Jon Blum

With Brian's backing band but no Brian?

If he doesn't respond he's a coward

Well Mike's band is certainly good enough...

So there would have been 2 completely separate touring bands with 2 completely separate configurations?

Stebbins said the wives stopped getting along (Melinda and Jackie). As to why not, I haven't a clue.

Mike's the only one who has given real interviews, but his line since last year seems to be the standard "Brian is being manipulated" rap (Ambha mentioned something along those lines on FB, too). He also complained at various times about how the album did, about how much the tour cost, about how many musicians were onstage, and about Brian being fat (IIRC). I've also heard that those tabloid reports of Mike walking out of early rehearsals weren't quite as preposterous as we all thought at the time.

Sounds like a fairly ego-driven, drama queeny kind of dude to me. The other thing that comes to mind is that perhaps he was unhappy with Joe Thomas getting a slice of the tour profits (or some other tour bookkeeping business).

He was upset about how the album did?? Didn't TWGMTR go top 3?

Well, then maybe he should've promoted the second single and album more and taken the second extension of C50 dates and tv appearances. That would've sold more albums, what with the being on the... popular tv programs instead of on the same bill as grilled chicken.

The C50 deal was clear, an all or nothing situation.

Yeah, but total final sales were only around the 200,000 mark.  Which again, is not bad given how Beach Boys album sales have traditionally gone (only two albums have even hit 500,000 since "Pet Sounds")... but it's no "Kokomo" or "Still Cruisin'".

Cheers,
Jon BLum

Perhaps if the album hadn't contained Mike-pleasing codswallop like Daybreak Over The Ocean it might've sold better... I'm sure Mike will secretly be thinking the album didn't sell better because of all those downers Brian stuck on the end. The Beach Boys are supposed to be about positivity etc. etc. etc.

Nobody gets the numbers they used to. The money is in touring and obviously he likes a bigger slice and total control over new music and collaboration with the friends and family who worked alongside him for half a century to help support all their kids, wives, and hangers on. His right. Maybe he needs to unburden himsel further of attachments in order to fully transcend and levitate. You're a Brianista hashhead if you think otherwise, everybody in the audiences I saw at Irvine and Hollywood last year agree with me.

But the gigs Mr. Stebbins was mentioning for a proposed C50 extension sounded pretty freakin' big, how small a cut was Mike getting if he'd turn those down in favor of casinos? Is it all about the money or is it ego AND money. Is ego money? Find out in today's installment of... THE JARDINE AFFAIR.

(http://momondo.com/blogs/culture/yogi_flyers.jpg)

Fig 4366. Soaring Towards The Komomo in The Sky

Criswell Predicts time. What are the next sordid tabloid headlines in this saga?

"NOT A COMPETITION," INSISTS JOHNSTON OVER KEBAB
 
BRIAN WILSON "STUNNED" AT REVELATION OF BEING "SHOCKED"

MIKE LOVE FIRES BACK WITH SAVAGE LETTER TO EDITOR AGAINST HIMSELF IN FREAK PRESS MISHAP

:lol

Am I the only one who likes Postcard From California (the song)?

Better as Rhinestone Cowboy, but a perfectly pleasant tune. Brian recorded on it, but Al didn't use his vocals ...

This. I read it as a leg pull. Al's also subtly turned the tables by suggesting that the door's open for Mike to return to the fold, despite the fact that Mike's the one with the band's name and to all intents and purposes therefore, in the eyes of Jimmy Q. Public, IS the fold!

Just good humoured banter in my book, good humoured enough to bring results perhaps.

Yes results, exactly, like a battle of the bands maybe

There's blood in the water

I read this interview with great interest, but where exactly is it "explosive"? 

On this board.

Ugh. I haven't read through the comments, I really can't bear it. It's clear now (to me at least) that Mike was absolutely the problem here. I have never been a Mike basher, but now I'm starting to think that maybe everyone is right. Maybe he really just is a bona fide jerk at the end of the day. It pains me to say that, but that's the conclusion that I draw from reading Al's comments.

At the place where it all began in the first place, the BBs monument in Hawthorne.

Wirestone - if they played "already contracted for dates" under the "Touring Band" banner, is this a suggestion that they should have "breached the contract" and sullied the BB name," subject to the BRI oversight of shareholders? 

And, if all of this was on the table, when the "C50 event" was negotiated, it was likely a term of agreement among the parties.  It is a complex scenario.  They are always "damned if they do, and damned if they don't." 

Absolutely agree, a well put, balanced opinion.


I don't think there is anybody here who thinks it wasn't Mike who pulled the plug on the reunion. And I don't think either there is anybody here who doesn't regret his choice. I just believe Mike didn't make that choice only because he's plain evil and cold and wants to earn more money and annoy the other guys.


Probably that's the plan - in order to do another reunion album they just had to split up again so they can reunite again.

I’m not so sure there is strong, clear evidence at our grasp to come to the conclusion that something drastic changed *during* the tour that dictated that Mike didn’t continue with the reunion.

On the contrary, the evidence suggests that Mike more likely planned all along, regardless of how well the reunion went, to return to his old setup of licensing the name for his two-man Beach Boys lineup. If Mike was sticking to the “pre-arranged plan” of going back to his own thing at the end of 2012, then that suggests to me that while any number of things could have unfolded during the reunion tour that may have soured him even more on the idea of more reunion activities, his decision to not extend the reunion was a decision largely made before the reunion began. It appears that Mike agreed to extend the tour once to fill in gaps prior to his first booked show with Bruce, and that was it.

In fact, many of the things that Mike has publicly criticized about the reunion were conditions that existed all along. He knew the nature of the album sessions very early on, that it was largely a Brian-Joe Thomas project with the other BB’s adding vocals. He knew all along, and in fact agreed to, having the large touring backup band. It sounds to me like he stewed on this stuff for the duration of the reunion, perhaps occasionally making allusions to how he felt (e.g. the mid-tour interview where he referenced preferring his lean touring operation and the size of the touring band not being his ideal size, etc.), and then once he got back to what he had planned to do all along, he was a bit more free to make those criticisms about the reunion.

Mike had referenced in more recent interviews to not having a problem if it was “just Brian”, and I can only imagine he is referencing the financial/political/interpersonal machine around Brian as something he (Mike) doesn’t like dealing with. But again, this was something that was known about before the tour began. Further, Mike has his own machine surrounding him that Brian and the others have to “compromise” to deal with. The whole compromise thing works both ways.

Beyond Mike’s stated issues with the reunion setup, I think the other possible reasons are the reasons we all know by process of deduction and elimination. Those are the standard issues of control, ego, finances, and so on. I suppose it’s possible that if Brian had agreed to trim several members from the touring band, lock himself in a room and let Mike write lyrics for his songs, book more shows in “smaller markets”, take less of a percentage of proceeds, and so on, perhaps Mike would have tried to make more reunion activities work. But such a scenario does not paint Mike in a positive light, because the scenario would basically be doing it exactly how Mike wants to, essentially just adding Brian, Al, and David to Mike’s pre-existing operation.

Our evidence at hand, including the likelihood that post-C50 Mike/Bruce dates were booked very early into if not prior to the beginning of the reunion tour, suggests to me that Mike planned all along to go back to his thing, and perhaps he just became less and less willing to not do things his own way as the C50 project progressed. That’s all fine for him to do whatever he wants, but I don’t see any indication that somebody else in the organization did something so heinous that soured Mike and stopped him from continuing the reunion.

Maybe Mike thought TWGMTR was a good stopping point for them as a creative unit. Perhaps he was sick of dealing with Brian's people while on tour. Perhaps, as HeyJude pointed out, he was uncomfortable with the tour group size. Perhaps he wasn't happy with how they "wrote" material for TWGMTR (and thus didn't want to continue that "collaborative" relationship):

"The unfortunate part was I wasn’t able to get together and write with Brian. It was not to be, even though we had talked earlier about getting together and writing some songs. It just didn’t work out, which is a drag and too bad." -Mike Love

http://www.classicrockhereandnow.com/2013/06/mike-love-interview-beach-boys-headed.html (http://www.classicrockhereandnow.com/2013/06/mike-love-interview-beach-boys-headed.html)

WHY would Mike want to be apart of making another album if he can't even write a flipping song alongside Brian?

He's being cast as a villain here, but I there's probably more to the story than Mike supposedly being a jackass and "firing" his bandmates.

Brian tried to give Mike a backing track to add lyrics to at the rooftop reunion in 2006 and Mike rejected it.

What are you trying to tell us?

That Mike rejected a backing track offered to him by Brian at the 2006 rooftop reunion, I believe.

Hope this helps.

We seem to be going round in circles on this one although to be fair, the boys themselves seem to keep bringing the topic round so I guess it's fair game:

rab2591: There is obviously much more to the story than just wide speculation about Mike Love's demeanor and the negativity that has surrounded him since the C50 ended.  The problem is for those who are trying to be sympathetic towards Love is that far and beyond anything else that may have gone down, the most demonstrative act and the one that impacts both the other members of the group and their fans in a negative way is Love's decision not to carry on with the C50.  This decision by Love seems to have been taken on a very personal level by both Brian Wilson and Al Jardine with press releases emanating from that side of the room painting Mike Love in a very negative light.  From a fan's perspective I would hazard a guess that the vast majority of the hardcores that gather here on this forum are none too happy with Love's decision either.  To be frank many of us are dead set bummed out that The Beach Boys are no longer a cohesive unit.

That aside we have all the rumors, speculation and third party reports which may at least give us some insight (if not justify) Mike Love's decision not to carry on with the C50.  One thing that we all need to remember that not carrying on with the C50 from a business perspective was clearly the more risky of the two options.  By carrying on The Beach Boys had an opportunity to make another album for Capitol, opportunities to continue on with their touring activities including playing some venues and bringing their show to people who may have not gotten a chance to see it during the spring/summer of 2012.  They also had the opportunity to elevate their brand in terms of marketing which no doubt could've resulted in better sales for their recent double disc live package, Made In California boxset and back catalog.  That all went away when the C50 activities were stomped.

That being said I agree with AGD that something of a very substantial nature had to have happened to motivate Mike Love to turn all of this down so he could once again embrace the opportunity to tour the circuit with Bruce Johnston and his touring band.  Also AGD's point about Mike Love receiving plaudits (for a change!) shouldn't pass without mention.  Personally I'm not all that convinced that the diehard fanbase's opinion of Love really matters all that much to the man but there was a great amount of good will floating around last year between the band as a whole and the fanbase and given the sour events that have transpired since then now many of us are left with questions such as "Were happy families just being played for a period of one year in order to sell an album and move tickets?"

:lol

(http://www.michael-fredrich.de/Blblprrbll.gif)

 >:D

How many tongue in cheek comments need to be made before some people get that it's tongue in cheek? I realize everybody has a different sense of humor, but clearly I've been kidding around as opposed to using this as an opportunity to rip into forum enemies and rehash the same 2 arguments. Geez, sorry I thought a ridiculous tabloid headline in the style of the ridiculous tabloid headlines about the "firing" concerning Alan was funny and that an offhand contest comment was charming and actually quite doable. On the plus side, I've made like what... 2 threads? 3 tops? Hopefully we can all move forward in a spirit of petulant nitpicking and smug knowitallness and forgive my rare transgression as it is just a jokey thread title. In conclusion: you're all wrong and my Beach Boy can still beat up your Beach Boy.

Is the whole "write with Brian" thing a red herring? Does he actually, REALLY, honestly want to do that? Come down to LA and visit the house every day for weeks? Really? It seems like he's been collaborating this way with Brian from the beginning, right? Taking existing melodies and jotting down lyrics in the studio or on the way there. When other people weren't writing the lyrics, anyway. It seems like it worked fine in the past and it's been how Brian's worked for decades.

 But I could see why he'd be suspicious of Joe Thomas, say. Did he ever say anything about Joe over the past year? Have the words "Joe Thomas" even left his lips with a recording device about? I don't remember any standard tour promotional piece praise for the man.

If Mike really nixed more reunion activities because he wasn’t allowed to get Brian alone in a room and write with him, then that’s just silly. It ignores all sorts of factors, including the fact that that hasn’t happened in any substantial way, as Wirestone pointed out some time back, in literally decades. It also ignores that Mike has put together numerous “Beach Boys” tracks and albums without *any* input from Brian (e.g. “Summer in Paradise”). Brian having Mike add some lyrics to some tracks isn’t the most organic, equal collaboration of course, but at least TWGMTR had some actual compositional input from both Brian and Mike. This all also ignores the fact that, in the eyes of some, Mike hasn’t written a lot of fabulous lyrics lately, in the past few years (or decades). Brian’s writing has been spotty for decades now too, but Brian at his best musically is still a thing to behold.  Wanting to co-write equally with Brian at first sounds like a high-minded, thoughtful, principled idea. But it’s not realistic for so many reasons, and I don’t think the motives behind it are so much high-minded and principled as they are ego-driven and nostalgia-driven.  Mike also hasn’t breathed a word about anything else he feels a second reunion album should have. Nothing about Al or Bruce or David writing, nothing about spreading lead vocals around, nothing at all beyond wanting to write alone with Brian. Even that particular stated condition, of writing with Brian, comes across as a bit self-centered.

Of course, ultimately I don’t believe the co-writing issue had any large impact on halting the reunion. Even Mike’s own words indicate that the co-writing issue was just one of a number of issues he felt some amount of negativity about.  I think the other potential reasons may have weighed more heavily. Making less money, playing fewer shows, having Brian garner so much attention, having to deal with Brian’s camp, having to take input from others on the setlist (even if, by everybody’s account, Mike was the gatekeeper of the setlist, so much so that both Brian and Al referenced having to “ask” Mike to add items to the setlist), having to pay for more musicians, the overall Brian-centric nature of the tour and album, and so on.

At first I was also amazed that Mike dispensed with the most good will from fans, the press, and critics that he had garnered in ages. Then I remembered that the evidence to me indicates he cares not one bit about that. That's not a negative or positive necessarily.

I would have hoped by this stage that the realization would occur that we're not talking about the legalities and contracts. That being said, I don't think anybody is suggesting that any contracts should have been breached. But shows can be postponed or cancelled, simply put.

If Mike did non-C50 dates during the tour, the others presumably agreed to it. But it would indicate that under no circumstances did Mike envision even the possibility of permanently going forward with the reunion lineup.

I agree with Hey Jude"s post above and his comments  mirror things said in Rolling Stone article..ML concerns were voiced there for the most part and I had a feeling that C50 was on thin ice.. The band WAS to big.! And the only one they could afford to let go and not miss was Nick because he was not a multi instrument kind of guy like+ Jeff Probyn + Scott . Also every time BW would intro a obscure tune to set list Mike / Scott would veto it but it would still go into set list.. HMM.? Mike never got to write with Brian also.. And there is something very telling in rolling stone interview. Mike resented BW havin his own tour bus with Jeff + no one else.. He said BW still likes to hide.WELL MIKE..He is your cousin and he is eccentric and somethings don't change..Now I went to Indio show and there was 2 big rigs for equipment and 2 tour busses.So do the math. BW + Jeff in one..4 BB+ 9 musicians+ PLUS road crew in ONE bus !!!! Scuse me but that was to save money NOT for comfort..My My it must have been crowded in there.. It appears from the outside that Mike made efforts to work with BW people and come to compromises.And it appears that BW got his way most of the time so M+B flew the coupe. There shows are for $$..C50 shows were for LEGACY + $$..I think Brian + company deserved to run the show this time..Mike has been runnin show longer than anyone else in BB. Now this time if they get back together more concessions from BW people will be in store.. And yes im PISSED about the band spintering again..I just played TWGMTR for a friend and he was shocked by the quality of the music + vocals..He disliked the same 2 songs I do..Bill+Sue and Beaches in Mind.. The album is no work of are but it is excellent..

I honestly don't see how it's unrealistic....or how it's self-centered of Mike to want to write music with his old collaborator (unless he means he wants every song to be a Love/Wilson co-write, then yes I'd agree with you). And perhaps Mike's songwriting has been utter crap lately because he's not writing WITH one of America's greatest song writers, Brian Wilson.

Very much agree with the rest of your post, as well as Mr.Wilson's and JohnMill's.

Hey Jude - this is all BRI board room and not fanboard decision making.  And, existing performances booked under the Touring Band may have required fulfillment. We, as fans, don't know what ongoing obligations that the Touring Band had pre and post.  It ain't our business. IMHO  

 That business is so successful because  they've worked so hard, that they likely have and are booking out a year or two in advance.  They've established "goodwill" in the business context all over the world.  I've seen them about a half dozen times since the close of C50, to packed houses and very happy fans. (And I felt C50 was an absolutely spiritual event.) And a "limited engagement."

And nothing can be simply put because it is pure fan speculation.  And wishful thinking and conjecture.

I would say it's certainly our business as obsessive fans to comment on decisions we have no clue about with perfect certainty as to how to make them. Then argue with all the other perfect certainties. And holy sh*t, can you imagine how annoying it must be for the people involved? I'd avoid reading this gibberish for fear of rising blood pressure.

As it's been pointed out since seemingly time began, at least stop booking them while C50 picked up momentum and got offered stuff like Madison Square Garden, more tv shows, etc. Fulfill the existing touring band dates with as little mess as possible and then get back to playing prestigious venues that were asking for the full band. Worried about unemployed family and band mouths to feed? California Saga those f*ckers up and have them open for select gigs. Done. If as Mike feared, the novelty of the reunion wore off and they stopped getting those high profile gigs, then Mike would have a MUCH better case for going back to the touring band configuration, right? But when they were incredibly successful and getting offered more stuff, it just wasn't the time to pull the plug... especially if when they end up circling the drain in SeaWorld and not recording for a major label. It seems incredibly short-sighted and destructive when they are pushing 70 and unlikely to get more chances like this.

Despite how successful, competent, and fun the touring band is, playing Madison Square Garden tends to be seen as more successful than Nutty Jerry's. If you want to bring music to the people, that's a helpful place to make a stop. Also, it might be beneficial to appear on all the tv shows watched by millions of people who can't get to an Indian casino.  I wouldn't care if they weren't doing such great work together on stage and in the studio. It's a perpetual what-if that despite calls for common sense thinking and corporate responsibility, will be discussed for decades to come. Eventually we'll find out more about what really went on, I guess that's why all this shot in the dark theorizing and wailing of teeth annoys so many people. We don't know as much as we're used to knowing as obsessive fans. Me want thing I liked before only slightly different to buy! ANGRY WHEN NOT AVAILABLE! MUST BREAK THINGS!

I'm quite happy with how it's turning out, tho. More stuff. More shows. Weird instrumentals with not as much audible autotune! Joy in Mudville. Boxed set, more appearances... can you picture the weird sh*t that's gonna go down when that Brian movie gets released?

Regarding the co-writing with Brian one should ask "What if Brian doesn't want to write with Mike?". It's not like Mike couldn't ask Brian if they could sit down and see what comes up. I'm no insider but I don't believe the story of Brian being manipulated. The man has his sicknesses and needs help. Maybe Mike isn't used to that and sees this as manipulation. But I'm sure if Brian really wanted to write with Mike he would do it.
Not meant as Mike bashing, just one of a few aspects that really puzzle me.

Someone mentioned the C50 Tour as an "embarrassment of riches" and I guess it was.  Necessary, to achieve a superb rendition of the music and yet so "over the top" with "baggage" and configuration that appeared almost necessary to become "extricated from."

 The Band performed so well with this support, and "special effects" and yet I felt this yearning to see MY Boys get "back to basics" which is what the Touring Band is, having seen the Band in a far simpler context from 1967.  

But, I'm not clear about why you are shocked by the quality of the music.   ;)

I'd be inclined to give this post more weight if only it wasn't so nearly illiterate. Get someone to show you how to use spell check. Grammar check too.

Mike was unhappy with the sales, wow, It's a miracle the album did 200k.

* It was barley promoted for what.. a week?
* They only released one single
* And butchered that song twice on two TV shows
* If you're not a Beach Boys fan, TWGMTR the single is a pretty cheesy song that nobody under 40 is going to pay much attention to
* They ended up re-recording the perfect radio friendly song on the album, "isn't it time" and somehow made it worse. They actually made a really good song,         unlistenable.
* That horrible cover
* The horrible logo
* That horrible album title.

Mike stated that the original plan was for him and Brian to write new songs together for TWGMTR (so they must have agreed to work together at some point) - and it didn't pan out. Perhaps Brian really didn't want to co-write with him - but if that's the case then it shows what an unhealthy creative relationship these guys have...and thus why Mike probably wants nothing to do with a second reunion album.

There are most certainly all sorts of corporate issues and legal issues that have to be dealt with, and I understand all of these. In terms of the BRI license, I’ve waded through all the publicly-available documents in the past 10-15 years, and I’m also aware of contract law pertaining to booking and performing live shows.

But in the end, these hand full of shows that Mike had booked and announced prior to C50 ending don’t mean anything. Even if we set aside the possibility of canceling the shows, or rescheduling them, or re-booking them as C50 shows, and so on, Mike could have easily performed any shows he had already booked, and *then* gone back to the reunion. This link being made between Mike not being able to cancel shows he had already booked and Mike not wanting to continue the reunion is not a link at all. The demise of the reunion was, at the end of the day, down to Mike’s choice to not continue.

The big mystery, which no longer matters, is how many shows Mike booked for his own band prior to or during the reunion tour. The thing is, I totally admit that Brian and Al seemed to be way too optimistic, to the point of being naïve, about the likelihood of Mike not going back to his own band. But I don’t buy that Mike had booked all of 2013 while the reunion was still going. This is important, because normally they probably would have had much if not most of 2013 booked by the fall of 2012. But even Mike was non-committal about post-reunion tour plans. I don’t buy that Brian and Al were *that* misguided and in the dark about Mike’s plans, to the point of actually thinking the reunion band would continue even though Mike had booked 100 shows in 2013 for his own band.

As far as building “goodwill” in the industry, this is of course generally true. But there is also evidence that Mike has diluted the trademark by continuing to tour so constantly, and doing so with a lineup with only two actual official members. I’d have to dig it up, but I believe the industry trade publication Pollstar had an article about the reunion tour and industry folks indicated that the reunion tour was a prestige event that was garnering interest from promoters who had previously seen the touring band as something of a second-tier, diluted item. There was/is a perception in the industry of the band that regularly has been touring as “The Beach Boys”, and it is one of less prestige than the reunion lineup. There would be no offers on the table for Madison Square Garden for Mike’s Beach Boys. Now, we can argue about our own preference for what types of venues and cities we want to see a show in. We also know Mike makes plenty of money and books plenty of shows with his current lineup. But if we’re talking about the industry perception and placement of “The Beach Boys”, then Mike’s current lineup in particular is a very mixed bag.

An “embarrassment of riches” is an apt description. But I don’t think “over the top” is a readily apparent perception of the reunion band, other than as perceived by Mike and perhaps his accountants. Maybe over the top and needed to be extricated from when it comes to Mike’s ideas of revenue and control, but that’s not good enough of a reason to me to throw out that “embarrassment of riches.” The reunion tour apparently/presumably made plenty of money, and got rave reviews and interest from more promoters to book more shows, and from Capitol to do another album. There’s nothing in that scenario that, overall, sounds like “over the top.” Again, only Mike seemed to object to any of this.

As far as getting back to basics, I think a stripped-down, small band can be a good thing sometimes. But if the “touring band” are “your boys”, then more power to you. The current touring band has very little to do with the reunion band, or the 1967 band. Having seen the C50 tour, there was not one moment where the thought crossed my mind that “Gee, I wish the band was smaller and less lush”, or “Wow, this is great I guess, but I hope Brian, Al, and David are gone by next year and the band is smaller. Seeing Al Jardine tour with the band for the first time in 15 years is cool, but I miss Christian Love.”

Thanks for your input AGD..Yea im not real good with computer"s and instead of writing complete sentances  and paragraph"s I write thoughts and then put a period. Then go forward with another thought..Period.. I don't allways use capitol letters at the beginning of a sentence either..But I noticed you STILL understand what im saying + writing..I do edit myself when posting to make it easier and faster to get my thoughts out in print.. I rarely post on boards now because of all the arguing and attitude.. You sir are at the top of the list.. You are rude on a regular basis..12 yrs ago when I started coming to BB message boards you were HIGHLY respected.. I noticed last few yrs people go off on you on regular basis..Why is that..?  HMM..How many words can you find that I spelled wrong on purpose..NOW.. I maybe wrong but U dissed me in public..Man I would never do that to you..I think ill go back to lurking.. Havent posted on this board since fall of 2011 till last week. Nothing"s changed with you..Enjoy your insider status..I don't need it.. You wallow in it.

When on tour with his band, Mike flies coach, stays in non-expensive hotels etc. Basically he's very cheap.

The lavishness of the C50 must have made him nuts.

If he ever comes to York, he can sleep in my shed if he likes. We'll even throw in dinner as long as he doesn't try it on with my wife.

Is your wife in her early 20's? If not you should be fine

The term "embarrassment of riches" is not mine. And, I maintain that it was likely necessary given it was an "event," to do justice to the work.  I absolutely loved the visuals of their many LP's playing onscreen, onstage.  It gave context to their career; their highs and not so.  I see Brian and Al whenever possible.  The 1967 model was about 8 musicians max.  That is "back to basics" in my personal context.  And, not to exclude or include one over the other.  But, C50 was an "event."

And, BRI likely, sets the Touring Band's parameters.  And, it was an agreement.  It doesn't matter what bookings were made, but the whole circuit of entertainment venues did not have the "annual visit" from the Touring Band. Thinking in terms of "See you next year, BB's!" After Carl died, it looked dismal for any BB's. And it was delightful that Mike was willing to step up to the challenge of rebuilding a viable Band, who could keep the music alive in the "live" context.  Lots of naysayers back then who now have to "eat their words with a fork and spoon."  :lol

So, with C50 involvement, the other branch of the business, seemed to be put "on hold."  This has been debated ad nauseum.  

 :beer - as my mother would say having a J&B with lunch, "It's four o'clock somewhere!"  ;)

Hey Jude, GREAT POST as always. Your concluding paragraph though this leads me to what I believe may actually be the biggest and most interesting question of all:

**WHY DID MIKE LOVE AGREE TO DO THE 50th AT ALL?**

(in caps because I think it's a really important question, not because I'm asking it out of incredulity or anger :)). Does anyone have an answer and/or theory?

IIRC Joe Thomas said that the songs were mostly finished when he and Brian went to Capitol to ask if they would release it but only as a Beach Boys album as Brian was explicit about.
"Isn't it time" I believe came along when Brian, Mike and the other co-writers were somewhere and Mike started with that bassline.
And I don't think it would show a "unhealthy relationship". First many of the songs were finished, second Mike got to write some lyrics for three songs and third if Brian feels someone else will write better lyrics for e.g. "Summer's gone" then why should he turn to Mike? It's not that his contributions to the three songs on TWGMTR would let to high expectations. I understand that Mike wants to sit down with Brian alone in a room and start work and I appreciate that. But why try to force him to do it that way if he nowadays seems to work differently? I'm sure if Mike would come up with some worthwhile ideas/lyrics no one would ignore it.

One thing that has never adequately been explained (to my satisfaction anyhow, not that that matters in the grand scheme of things mind you) is that whenever a case is made for Mike Love's decision not to carry on, the lynch pin seems to be that he couldn't handle all of the drama (for lack of a better word) that went along with having Brian Wilson in the band.  Everything from Brian's entourage, to Brian allegedly not being able to commit to The Beach Boys' hard touring schedule to not being able to write songs one on one with Brian.  Whenever that road is headed down by someone making the case for Mike Love not wanting to continue on with the C50, it all seems to be very Brian Wilson centric.

That brings me to my question of what is to be said about Al Jardine and David Marks?  If this was as much of a Brian Wilson centric issue for Mike Love as many have put forth, why didn't Mike just simply invite Al Jardine and David Marks along to join M&B and continue touring the circuit like that?  Now if Al and Dave had accepted the invitation that would've no doubt enraged the hardcores who would've seen the issue as the entire group kicking Brian Wilson to the curb.  But the question remains the same, if the issues regarding why Mike Love chose not to go forward with the C50 were so Brian Wilson centric, why were Jardine and Marks "kicked to the curb" as well?

One other point that I think bears repeating regarding personal relationships vs. professional relationships.  It's one thing to enjoy the company of another person in your personal life but it's another thing all together to actually enjoy doing business with them.  In all this post C50 melodrama, one thing that I've found to get consistently misstated at least in my opinion is that Mike Love's refusal to go forward with the C50 was due to some personal dislike of the erstwhile/jettisoned Beach Boys.  Again there is a difference between liking someone and wanting to do business with them and I think from my vantage point that crucial difference is lost on many in discussing this issue even those who are directly involved and affected by the decision not to go forward with the C50.  Remember it was only a few weeks ago that Alan Jardine's son Matt was brought onstage at a M&B show which may speak at least to the notion that at least from Mike Love's perspective the decision not to go forward was simply a desire not to do business anymore with the jettisoned Beach Boys and not an indication of any personal malice towards them on his part.  Unfortunately that seems to have gotten lost in translation just as I'm sure that Mike Love's essay in the MIC boxset will be looked at a sanctimonious if it contains anything remotely positive about the jettisoned Beach Boys.

And no once again I'm not a Mike Love apologist.  In my personal and very subjective opinion, he made the wrong decision not going forward with the C50.

PS: I like "That's Why God Made The Radio" (the song) and really don't give a hoot what anyone under forty thinks of it.  Most of them grew up in an era where Michael Jackson's music was about as far back as most of their musical knowledge went.  Sadly there is a generation out there now whose earliest musical memories are that of Britney Spears.

Same reason Brian Wilson, Alan Jardine, Bruce Johnston & David Marks did.

Interesting. Mike's approach in interviews regarding the end of c50 has been of the rational businessman type. But the C50 was inmensely  emotion-driven for all, including -and it seems most specially- Mike himself. His interviews during those days were candid and touching and so was his speech at the California Saga performance... He even took the time mid-tour to do that. My point is that there have to be profound, emotional reasons for Mike not to keep doing the C50 thing besides his business-like arguments.

You are a cruel man AGD. But it's an honor to be insulted by you.

Good point but as I mentioned above the fact that Mike Love allowed Matt Jardine to appear at a M&B show tells me that at the very least he hasn't written off the jettisoned Beach Boys or their family members in a personal sense.  Therefore I think that perhaps the correct way of stating Mike Love's point of view regarding the stomping of the C50 was that it was a business decision motivated by strong personal feelings regarding how business was being conducted during the course of the C50 tour.  The problem is given that Mike Love has yet to take a public stance as to why the C50 was stomped, the only side of the tale that is out there is the emotional reaction from the jettisoned Beach Boys as to the stomping of the C50 tour whom from all appearances took Love's decision not to carry on on a very personal level.  

In addition the way the end of the C50 was handled from a public relations perspective was egregious.  There were falsehoods, recriminations and appearances of one hand not knowing what the other was doing in regards to the inclusive unit known as "The Beach Boys" (as opposed to the M&B unit operating under the same name).  This kind of press didn't do anyone any good regardless of whose side you are taking and probably has added greatly to a lot of the negativity surrounding the entire issue for many of the hardcores.  In conclusion I think it's one reason this topic keeps coming up aside from the fact that the band members themselves keep bringing it to the forefront.  There just seems to be a very negative vibe surrounding "The Beach Boys" right now something that you would think would've been the antithesis of the image, spirit or message they were trying to project to the world at large during the C50

Edit: There is something else interesting that I just noticed in AGD's original post referencing Wirestone's comments on Capitol's decision not to go forward with their plans of offering The Beach Boys an opportunity to record another record.  If I'm reading this correctly once Mike Love decided to revert back to continuing touring "The Beach Boys" in their M&B incarnation, Capitol immediately responded by yanking the offer of a new Beach Boys record off the table?  Is that to say that if The Beach Boys wished to record another record as an inclusive unit but have the live group tour under their M&B guise that that wouldn't have been kosher as far as Capitol was concerned?  Were The Beach Boys obligated to stay an inclusive unit as a touring act under their C50 guise in order to be given the opportunity to record another record for Capitol?  If so why was Brian Wilson then offered a contract in short order by Capitol records to record a solo album which essentially is going to "replace" the second Beach Boys' reunion album that is apparently never to be?

Here's food for thought; if at the beginning of the reunion somebody had stated that is would be MIKE who'd choose to end the party and effectively cease working with Brian again they would have been laughed off this board. Hasn't the general consensus been for years that Mike would give his left nut to work with Brian in any capacity? Shows how little we really do know about these people, doesn't it?

Not really. Wasn't it said a few years ago that Brian brought up the subject of writing together and that Mike was only interested if they could get back in a room together like the old days?

Not an insult, dear heart - just a hugely simplistic rendering of a hugely complex answer. They did it because they're The Beach Boys, and because they're The Beach Boys, everything ensued exactly as it did.

There was a faction on this forum at the time the C50 was being organized that did not want to see it take place period.  So given that my answer to you would be who knows?

True that's been Mike's dream since the 1990's, to again "write hits with his cousin", but you can't tell me that the average Myke hater didn't always hold the view that 'evil, talentless Mike Love' was desperate to work with his couz again at any cost.

I view it as a positive. You could also throw in there, as JohnMill mentioned in an above post, that the continuation C50 reunion could've led to more financially lucrative opportunities. One can question, disagree, and hate Mike Love for his recent decisions. That's left up to each fan to determine. But, Mike's decisions, as unpopular as they are, show a man who, at the very least, stands up for what he believes in, and will ultimately live with the consequences.

As a Beach Boy fan for 40 years, I am still shocked that Mike is passing up ANY opportunity to work with Brian. I never thought I'd see the day. But it is showing me that Mike isn't just in it for the money (by continuing a lucrative tour and recording a new album and other perks that accompany the reunion), isn't interested in just being associated with Brian Wilson (by continuing sharing a stage with and recording a new album on BRIAN'S terms - yes, I'm speculating on that), and isn't interested in being politically correct by working with "people" he is not comfortable with just to viewed as a good guy and spreading the group's good vibes - when they might not, in reality, be there.

Again, fans can view Mike as self-centered, stubborn, or just plain wrong in his recent decisions. Hell, I'm extremely pissed that we didn't get more C50 shows and a new studio album. Damn... But, personally, I at least respect Mike for standing up for what HE BELIEVES IN, just as I respect Brian and Al (and David) for pursuing the paths that they believe in. I think many fans on this board are not respecting Mike's decision. They respect his right to have one. I just don't think people are really looking deeply into WHY Mike feels the way he does, after carrying the Beach Boys' torch for 51 years, many of those years by himself, when Brian chose not to be a Beach Boy. I do find it uncomfortable and disconcerting how many people, almost instinctively and almost sympathetically, take the side of Brian, or specifically WHAT BRIAN WANTS, after so many decades of him not wanting to be a Beach Boy and after Brian saying some of the things he has said about the group - and Mike. Just to clarify, this is my opinion.

Testify.

In regards to The Beach Boys, I'm not sure you can ever make direct comparisons or judgments to the decisions Mike Love has made in his life pertaining to this matter and the decisions Brian Wilson has made in his life pertaining to this matter.  Without belaboring the point Brian Wilson went through what can easily be termed as an extremely shattering experience in his life, one which to some degree or another he is still dealing with to this day.  We've all heard the stories including some horrific ones regarding Brian's struggles basically since the SMiLE project collapsed so no need to rehash them here.  The one thing that does stand out though in all those stories is whatever issues were going on in Brian's life at the time where he may have not wanted to be engrossed in The Beach Boys' as many fans might've wanted him to be, well lets just say "being a Beach Boy" wasn't the only thing he wasn't engrossed in during those times.  Complexity would be the operative word here and I certainly don't feel right commenting on it any further than I already have.

Mike Love's recent decision to not continue on with the C50 on the other hand whether you agree with it or not was a business decision (even if it wasn't as cold-hearted as some might like to portray it) so the reviews on that matter are going to come in a little bit differently than how Brian Wilson may be judged for some of his decisions.  Mike Love just isn't going to get the benefit of the doubt the way Brian Wilson does if we are to compare the two situations, that's just reality for you there.  It doesn't mean Mike Love has to be portrayed as a villain though either as he has every right to feel the way he does, conduct his life and his business the way he does which is essentially what he is doing.  

I don’t think this is true at all. I think they had some potentially vastly differing reasons for doing the tour. We can’t even say they at least all shared the reason of doing it for the money, because I would say it’s still at least possible that Mike made less touring in 2012 than he did in 2011.

They came from different places and positions of power. First of all, why did Bruce do the reunion? Because he follows Mike. I don’t even mean this to demean Bruce, but just literally he does seem to follow Mike. David Marks didn’t have an axe to grind or any place to sort of “negotiate down” from. In other words, he didn’t have anything comparable going on prior. Al Jardine is essentially in that same boat; he wasn’t touring much and was done tinkering with his own album. Brian and Mike were the ones that had the most to lose or gain logistically from doing the reunion. Don’t get me wrong, an emotional/nostalgic/we’re getting older thread was undoubtedly running through everything too.

But exactly why Mike did the reunion is an interesting question, and I don’t think we have all the answers, beyond the obvious answers. The fact that he did take a potential financial hit and ceded some control and adulation and whatnot is both impressive, and also a possible explanation of why such an occasion was limited to one tour.

I think this may have been a huge reason Mike didn’t want to continue it. While he has mentioned these factors to varying degrees in interviews, he has not directly connected his feelings about expenses with not continuing the reunion. He has not said “I won’t continue the reunion unless we get rid of the some of the band and lower expenses”, and likely won’t because it would make him look bad, worrying about the bottom line more than the art, especially when the “bloated” tour format still yields plenty of profit and also yields better reviews, more acclaim, and so on. 

Mike hasn't worried about looking cantankerous in the past. I imagine if he had a problem with the tour and the expenses he would step up and address those issues. I think he probably did and that's where the bad blood started, I'm gonna go guess and say Mike and Brian's camp butted heads more than once.

Yes, I’m aware the “embarrassment of riches” phrase was made by Howie Edelson, and his post on the matter was one of the best I’ve seen. I’ve referenced it numerous times.

The reunion could have “replaced” Mike’s stripped-down tour. It could have happened for another year, or for the foreseeable future. The reunion tour increased the band’s prestige, it’s “cred” or whatever you want to call it, among the press, which was especially impressive considering, as either Stebbins or Edelson pointed out some time back, the band has next to zero presence on classic rock radio.  The band were playing larger venues (and some of the same size and type), and getting offers for even larger venues (indoor arenas). It could have been stepped down back to Mike’s format at any time. The public and concert promoters are not going to forget about the Beach Boys because the five-piece reunion lineup replaces the two-man lineup.

I would also disagree with the characterization of Mike “rebuilding” the band after Carl’s death. He took the same band that had been touring with Carl, and simply did it without Carl and Al and Matt Jardine. He actually started “rebuilding” the band while Carl and Al were still there, as described in Jon Stebbins’ and David Marks’ book.

I for one never ignored that Mike was taking the music to the masses. It was debatable whether he was doing that in the face of nobody else wanting to do it, as the legal tangling with Al indicated that Al at least had some sort of interest in it somehow.

The argument could actually be made that, had the BB’s simply stopped in 1998 with Carl’s death and had not toured at all between 1998 and 2011, they may have been booking even larger venues on their reunion tour. Mike, in keeping the music alive, has also in a business sense diluted the band’s trademark. He didn’t do it alone (Carl and Al joined the incessant touring pre-1998), but he’s the main person behind it presently.

It does seem to beg the question why was a compromise out of the question that could've saw the C50 continue?  For example if Mike Love had such deep grievances about the way business on the C50 was being conducted why couldn't he go to the other members of the group (and whomever else he would need to address) with these issues and say something like "Look guys, for me to feel comfortable about continuing on with this C50 tour, the following issues are going to need to be looked at and addressed".  

We don't know whether or not during the C50 Mike ever attempted to have such a discussion with the appropriate parties or not.  We also don't know whether or not Mike's decision to stomp the C50 was the only option he had available to him come the fall.  Perhaps he realized that there was simply no point in trying to work out a means of going forward with the C50 with the other necessary parties as he had tried that avenue several times prior and had been shut down.  So given that he just removed himself (and Bruce by extension) from the picture entirely.

My impression is that the C50 tour while initially a joint project with decision making power split between Mike and Brian soon became Brian/Melinda's show.  Look at the Rolling Stone article about the disputes over set list - when Brian wanted a song added, over Mike's objections, it was added.  Mike wanted control back over the band as he has had for the past, oh, 15 years, and he wasn't going to get it with the c50 band.  Plus I don't think you can discount monetary reasons - with the huge band, equipment, lights people, hangers-on for Brian and the rest, I suspect Mike was making LESS on tour than he is now.  However to be fair Mike has to look at revenue from the DVD, C50 tour album, increased sales of TWGMTR from tour promotion, merchandise sales, etc.  This is new revenue going to mike that he would never have without a Brian led reunion and album.

Al Jardine, Brian Wilson, and maybe David Marks have a new car song. THE LAST CAR SONG. They should just call it that.

Yes, now I remember that it was Howie's turn-of-phrase.  Thanks. To suggest that because the very fickle "press" had now started to give "cred" to the Band, sounds weak to me.  And it would be the same press who turned their noses up at much of their work as substandard or weird, or whatever. The press has not historically been kind to the band and that includes Brian.  I'd go so far as to say that would include the neglected press duties and promo duties of the record company, as reported over time.  

And, while there were different visions of what the Band should be, after Carl died, it emerged as it did, by "agreement of the parties."  The dilution of the trade mark is probably not appropriate for comment here, by me.  

"Incessant touring" as you say, saved them, ultimately, in my view. And, reaching into more obscure markets, cultivated a market, whether it is Disney (abc) Sea World, or other destination venues, beyond what the typical rock venue now lives.  It can't be in the colleges, as a general rule, because their "college kids" are "all growed up" (purposely misspelled.)  It is insulting to disparage those venues, as fans come in all shapes and sizes.  Bonaroo might be a happy exception.  Those YouTubes of those kids rocking to the Boys was just awesome! One of my neighbors drove 1,200 miles to see them.  

Lots of people are "stewing" over what they have NO control over, and projecting their wishes on the band members, in a pretty futile manner, and refusing to look at the whole situation, objectively.  

To paraphrase a line from the Game of Thrones, "[We] know nothing, [Smiley Smilers]".
We really know very little, virtually nothing concrete, as to the wind up of C50 Tour. A few interviews (superficial perhaps and no real details) and reports (probably need to be taken with a grain of salt as often reporting should be) so all this is mostly speculation. So many variables, so many characters, perhaps many agendas, numerous contracts, the license terms etc. - no one has all the facts. Some public facts (concert attendance, reviews, record sales, but no behind the scenes information. There are many opinions here, but I think any opinion on this matter is based on speculation and interpretation, not in-depth knowledge - beacuse there isn't much out there on the specific topic.
IMO - yes opinion only - the C50 was going to end at some point. The C50 version of the BBs were not going to be an ongoing group again; I think history shows that (BW doesn't want to perform as much as ML does). For whatever reasons (whether any 1 major one or numerous smaller ones), it ended after a U.S. Tour, European/Asian leg and a final spectacular showing in England. I think its unfortunate that when that was recognized internally (maybe after attempts to make satisfactory arrangements to appear at MSG - again, who knows?) the guys didn't put together a collective PR announcement that said thanks, its been great but the UK shows are it. If that had been done by both camps, this whole post C50 drama might have been avoided in large part.
Maybe its fun to speculate, debate etc. but without hard knowledge, as Buffalo Springfield sang "nobody's right if everybody's wrong".

I'd have to go back and read it to be sure, but I don't believe Mike was said to object to "Marcella" in the setlist, he seemed surprised by the suggestion and apprehensive perhaps.

I don't think it could realistically. Mike wants to play 100 concerts a year. Brian might have been able to do that for one year but for 2013 as well? Nah.

I also don't think it could have happened because...it didn't happen. The C50 tour was all about Brian and Mike and them being able to compromise for a certain amount of time. That was never going to happen indefinitely though. They both want different things from life...

I’m no apologist for the critics or music press. But objectively, good press from these people, as fickle and ill-informed as they often are, and as bad as they’ve been to the band in the past, can be a good thing. The Beach Boys with the reunion tour did go, as Howie Edelson said in another of his posts,  “from Frankie Valli to Mick Jagger OVERNIGHT.” I don’t think this surprising shift should be ignored out of retribution for how bad the press has been regarding the band. I’m not giving the press any extra credit, I’m just agreeing objectively with Edelson’s point.

As for the band post-Carl, I’m not sure Al and his numerous failed lawsuits would agree with the band emerging by “agreement of the parties.” That doesn’t really matter anymore, but I think how the band emerged in 1998 and on was not a smooth, agreed-upon, highly praised process.

Not sure what else to add about the dilution of the trademark. I think that is a HUGE issue when we get into the topic of “carrying the torch” and the types of tours and venues and audiences the varying configurations of the band have and could garner. Carl saw this happening, alluding in occasional interviews that they should perhaps tour less frequently. But Carl was part of it, he didn’t apparently put up much of a fight for very long. It doesn’t appear anyone in the band ever really attempted to do what Mike himself described promoters telling him to do in the aftermath of the C50 tour, to “give it a rest” to build up demand.

As far as venues, I think the “smaller markets” topic is largely a straw man argument.  Brian nor Al nor most fans who wanted to see the reunion continue ever felt or said anything disparaging about those venues or markets. I think it’s a very debatable and interesting topic as to whether all these past years of touring hindered or helped the band and their legacy. But I would say at this point, in 2012/13, I no longer buy the argument that some form of “Beach Boys” need to tour smaller markets in 2013 for fear of losing any fans. Their legacy is now cemented. If no “Beach Boys” toured starting now, it would be cemented. And certainly, if the scenario discussed by Mike came to pass, that of the “reunion” lineup continuing to tour in 2013 but perhaps not hitting all those small markets, it would be even LESS likely that the band would lose any visibility or fans.

Trying to paint Brian or Al (or fans trying to paint other fans) as disparaging smaller markets by supporting the reunion band, which only arguably would require all larger venues and markets, is to me deflecting away from the fact that Mike Love put the brakes on more reunion activity.

I think the idea is that there would be compromise, which might include shifting a touring schedule more along the lines of C50, perhaps even a bit more scaled back. Not what Mike wants, but if we’re just talking about what he wants, then we’re already not talking about anything realistic pertaining to the reunion lineup, as that should be some sort of compromise.

I was speaking of the reunion tour replacing Mike’s tour in terms of placement in the touring industry, among fans and especially promoters and venues. The idea that promoters and venues would be “missing” Mike’s tour in 2012 and I guess therefore need it even more in 2013 ignores that a reunion band would be out there playing other venues (and some same venues) and keeping the band out there in the industry just fine.

He also kept the coffers of BRI topped up very nicely thank you, something the other voting members seem to have no problem with these fifteen-odd years since Carl's passing.

The reunion produced fine results, and it's over. Am I the only one who is OK with that? I am really OK with whatever they do or don't do. Together or separate. Public or private. They have given us the great musical ending we wanted, but they haven't been a full untied group thirty five to forty years. All of a sudden the camps are not going to break down to recombine into one. It's a miracle we got anything after 1973 considering, and now finally there was something we could take pride in and people still complain.

Not for retribution but, as a barometer of how fickle they've been and often unkind.  

The configurations have been explained by Brian and Melinda on an old Larry King interview. I can't speak to anything else.  It sounds as though you'd (or others) have the Touring Band stop, when they don't appear to have any obligation to do so.  They like it; it suits them. At 70, can't you self-determine?

I never said  the agreement was "smooth" but it appears that BRI had the final say.   Mike went back to "status quo ante" post C50.  There was no surprise in my opinion.  

The media is all of those things, fickle, etc. But it’s a good enough barometer for the moment to notice that in 2011 the touring “Beach Boys” had no mainstream media coverage, and in 2012 they had tons of it, and apart from Bruce’s weird TMZ moment and the end debacle, it was all positive coverage.

I’ve never suggested the touring band stop (well, I probably did back circa 1999/2000, but that’s a different area of discussion), and I’ve certainly never suggested they have an obligation to stop. The discussion of late has been around whether a hypothetical continuation of the reunion lineup would be preferable, and how Mike’s motives concerning his touring band have impacted the non-continuation of the reunion.

I think Al, much like many fans, takes issue at this point not so much with Mike touring with his own band, but rather Mike choosing to tour with his own band instead of the reunion lineup.

Yeah, I just read this quote from Brian Wilson last week, "I loved being back with the boys, but things got a little rough at the end. It took everything out of me. I'm just really into doing my own stuff."

It took everything out of him. Without the C50 tour being extended for a second time? He's really into doing his own stuff. So soon? Does that sound like a guy who REALLY wanted the C50 situation to continue (i.e. more touring, a new BB album with Mike)? Does that sound like Mike was the ONLY one who realized that it was best to end the reunion when it did?

I’m sure none of the BRI members take issue with the extra income (though, once again for those unaware, BRI collects a licensing fee from Mike’s tour for use of the name, they do not get an “equal” cut or anything along those lines). I’m not so sure they have no problem with anything Mike does with his use of the name and his tour. They just don’t have enough of a problem to do anything about it. I could totally envision Brian and Al (or their camps/agents/attorneys) throwing around whether they should do anything about Mike’s ongoing use of the BB trademark, and being informed that they would have a huge uphill battle, would need Carl’s estate’s support, and would likely be tangled up in the courtroom for the next decade.

It absolutely is a put-up-or-shut-up situation as far as letting Mike use the name. But I don’t see Al or Brian saying Mike should have the name taken away. We simply have Brian and Al, or now pretty much just Al, pointing out what could have been and what Mike turned down to go back to his own thing.

I suppose it depends on what took everything out of Brian on the tour. Was it the act of touring? Or was he talking about the debacle at the end with dueling press releases and some acrimony? Sounds like Brian was into continuing the reunion until Mike but the brakes on, and at that point understandably lost enthusiasm for it.

I think that is essentially why it wasn't realistic. The C50 tour in itself was already a compromise and one that Mike grew tired of seemingly. So the idea that he would be willing to compromise even more wasn't realistic (which is obviously how it proved).

It's a question that I can't answer.   And it is all hypothetical until they change the status quo.  

And the band was fledgling in 1999-2000 and has morphed into a great band.  

I'd also add that despite marginal press, every venue I've been in, has been a full house and joyous crowd.  They are successful without all the hype and drama.  I don't know how to argue with that success.  And the smaller  venues aren't dumps.  I'll be seeing Chicago at one of them and I don't consider them a second-rate act.

I see your point, Hey Jude, about how it depends on WHAT took everything out of Brian on the tour. When Brian says, "It took everything out of me", you took the "it" to be the devastation that Brian was feeling when Mike "put the brakes on" the reunion. Yet, I took the "it" to be the physical exhaustion that Brian was experiencing, and that he was relieved when the tour was over, regardless of the press release he made. Isn't it fascinating how two Beach Boys' fans can read the same comment and interpret it so differently.

Exactly.

Here is the problem with those trying to ascribe Brian's quote that "It took everything out of me..." to being about the C50 tour itself and not the debacle that followed.  During the course of the tour Brian was quoted I believe saying something akin to that he was no longer interested in doing solo albums and it was going to be strictly Beach Boys albums from now on.  There was also a report from a forum regular (Justin perhaps can't remember) who had reported that Wilson was completely on board with being "Beach Boy Brian Wilson" again and basically rejoicing in this "new identity" the C50 tour had given him.

I'd also remind people to ascribe Brian's "It took everything out of me..." quote to the context it was stated in.  Again the full quote reads


The key line in there falls between his reflections on his reunion with The Beach Boys and his declaration that "it took everything out of me".  That key line reads "...but things got a little rough at the end" which if my background in English Lit is correct means that what is being referred to here is the debacle that took place after the C50 tour was concluded and it was revealed that Mike would not go forward with plans to extend the tour.

To me Brian Wilson (at least over the past decade or so) has always struck me as someone who prefers to live his life in as much of drama free state as possible.  My gauge is he is not one to either start or exacerbate drama that could lead to further worries and headaches for himself.  So once it became crystal clear that Mike Love had no intention of carrying on with the C50, as disappointed as Wilson might have been he decided it was best to just forge ahead with his own projects rather than immerse himself in any further "Beach Boys drama".  There are those who will argue that he had little choice in the matter anyhow as Mike essentially just removed himself (and Bruce) from the picture leaving the others to do with themselves as the pleased but nonetheless the quote bears out that although the tour was enjoyable, once things started turning acrimonious in nature Brian Wilson chose to go do his own thing rather than engaging the drama.

Picking up on the business versus emotion thread for a moment here. It's interesting that more people haven't talked about what I posted earlier -- and what is general knowledge -- that the C50 was a joint venture of Brian, Joe Thomas and Mike. That's opposed to BRI, which is Brian, Mike, Al and Carl's estate. Now, consider the power dynamics in one of those groups versus the other. As much as we may have wanted the reunion to continue, it was part of a business venture that was explicitly driven by Brian's people. Not Al or Carl's estate -- just Brian's. Now, consider who is still working with Brian, and who isn't. And who had gotten very skillful at avoiding video appearances or still photos.

That was Al who said it

I think BW really liked being a BB again. When I saw them in Indio Ca the tour was a month old. BW was very energetic And rockin back + forth in his chair and having a great time. In over 55 BB shows + 15 BW shows I have never seen him so motivated and happy on stage.! He sang Really good that nite and few bum notes.  He was on and was proud of how good they sounded..A very memorable concert for sure.. So im sure he was disappointed when the tour blew up. Oh and he actually played keyboards most of the night and could plainly be heard in the mix.

Hopefully we will get some insight in how the tour blew up in Brian's new autobiography "I Am Brian Wilson". But 2015 is a long way away.

ps, I understand you perfectly Mr. Wilson.  And you don't confuse BRI with BMI.

I interpreted it exactly how it was written. However which way it was meant, I think Brian's physical exaustion and he being relieved it was over was right on the money.

All that matters is what happens now. . . . .Mike should want to get on board and be part of one of those albums. And the price must be he's permitted to be in a room and write with his cousin. Who is the genius that is keeping the men who wrote the Warmth of the Sun and Kiss me Baby apart?

They just couldn't leave well enough alone, could they? Last year was an amazing time to be a Beach Boys fan. We got a new album of new material, and a reunion tour, the quality of which went well and beyond all forms of logical thinking. Seeing and hearing the boys gathered around Brian at the piano doing Add Some Music To Your Day was sheer magic, plain and simple. But then they broke out Summer's Gone for the last few shows, and really threw us all for a loop. They had finally done it right and given the group the ending they deserved.

*sigh*

The whole "write in a room with Brian" is a red herring in my opinion.

Mike was right there in the room when they supposedly made up "Isn't It Time" and "Beaches In Mind" on the spot. Was that not good enough? Should Brian rent a hotel room with a piano inside and they won't come out 'til they got something?

Let's face it professor, Mike just doesn't wanna work with Brian and Al (and Dave I guess) anymore. However, the three willing Beach Boys are all working together, and I know it's not good enough for you, but maybe you should give that a try.

Also, note that they didn't put any unreleased material from the sessions for TWGMTR on Made In California. I actually take that as a positive sign that the guys wanna hold that material in their back pocket for another possible album down the road.

Or that since Joe Thomas and Brian own that stuff, they'll use it for solo album purposes. It would make JT a lot more money that way than tracks on disc 6 on a boxed set.

They sound hopped up and on a roll working on that stuff, so I can't wait to hear it. We'll still get to, just without Mike Love autotuned on a few tracks rhyming things with vibration and a barely audible Bruce Johnston on 2 tracks singing 3 or 4 words. I know it's not quite the same for firing up your nostalgia circuits, but let's listen to the results first. I can't wait to hear more BW band tracks with Jardine leads.

I agree with this by the way.

Plus, let's say Mike did get Brian on his terms. What would happen? Another M.I.U. Album where Mike drags Brian around to his perfect idea of a getaway and Brian gets super depressed? Or maybe a Keepin' The Summer Alive scenario where Mike brings great ideas to the table for a song called "Goin' To The Beach"? Or perhaps, they go away to write real material about their lives and come back with something like "Baywatch Nights"?

What if? What if, eh? And around and around you guys continue to go with this. And it's going nowhere. A dream. A fantasy.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

It's over now, it's over now......

The professor loves you guys. . . . .you're always there when I need you (sorry to be so damned sentimental). I drove over the Wilson home late last night with POB blasting. . . . . .what an album when you are lovesick (that is, my friend is lovesick).

Dude, I will listen to a 3BB album for sure!  David marks Al and Brian? Oh yeah, I will , however short it is of all my dreams.

LOCAL MAN DECLARES LOVE "JERK" IN MILD INSULT SHOCKER

You could always play Mike Love interviews over the instrumental tracks for touching spoken word passages. The parts where he goes on about togetherness, putting aside old conflicts, harmony, and how the whole is better than the sum of its parts. Something for all you custom mix enthusiasts creating a faux followup to RADIO!

We may love to hate Love, we may hate to love Love, we may just love Love -- but boy, ultimately the man is basically a jerk. Textbook jerk. Dance around it, defend the jerkitude, wallow in your Stockholm Jerk Syndrome, justify jerkiness -- and yes, he's got lots of reasons to be spiteful with such a basket case of an extended family, hurray to him for deft legal maneuvering and being in control of the name and sitting in the catbird seat... but, yeah. Jerk. They probably needed his totally secure-in-his-jerkhood presence to succeed in the early days. Who but a jerk would pantomime little routines to California Girls without a shred of shame about it? Who but a jerk would do that Hall of Fame speech? Who but a jerk would call themselves Doctor Love? Look inside your heart. You know this to be true. Let's hear it for the great jerks of history! Where would we be without them? How could we enjoy being in an airport without a big preening jerk yelling "don't you know who I am?"

There is nothing, I mean NOTHING -- more American than a jerk. And he's a fabulous, top ten one.

(http://i41.tinypic.com/qnmr2a.jpg)

Fig. 6554. The Eternal Yin-Yang of Insecurity and Jerkicity

America runs on jerks.

 This has been a message from the Jerk Council.

Al keepin' it clean!

The heart, the voices ....

Some apologists on here seem to live in that Bizzaro world Ron got caught in.
I
The boys were so close to righting alot of wrongs of the last 30 odd years towards the end of C50 . A high quality Live Albert Hall  DVD, no more lawsuits, continuing with select high quality shows.

The legacy was so close to being  what it should be, not the Sea World/Stamos interpretation (rightly or wrongly, that is the perception). Just how much money do some guys want?

If the Mike and Bruce show is so good, which it often is, it could continue as a going concern - just not THE BEACH BOYS. That gets reserved for the important shows, anniversaries,  plugging a new album, a full, full line up Pet Sounds tour, anyone?

Not that hard.

Great post! It is true indeed that it is possible to think that Mike is an enormous jerk - which vast amounts of evidence strongly imply he is - whilst still admiring what he brought to the band and still appreciating his work over the years.

That hard - we're talking The Beach Boys here. Give them three decision choices and they've an unerring corporate instinct for choosing the worst one, the one that combines the least satisfaction with the highest possible damage.

Wirestone - excellent and objective description of the "entities." Bravo!

p.s. Notwithstanding any controversy with this article, Al Jardine absolutely rocked that white suit at C50 as he brought back that 1968-1969 era! He looked like a kid!

And however you want to argue over the ending, AGD has a point. The guys are so freaking oblivious sometimes that it hurts ...

I just wanted to post the following to kind of wrap up my thoughts on this whole mess we've been living through since the C50 ended and try to put as positive a spin on things as possible:

First off even though the C50 didn't end the way most of us wanted it we as fans still got a lot of product that we might've otherwise not have gotten if there wasn't renewed interest in this group because of the C50.  The 2012 remasters, "That's Why God Made The Radio", the double disc live set and "Made In California" are all byproducts of the C50.  If anyone is aware of "The SMiLE Sessions" boxset from 2011 also being a byproduct of the C50, speak now and we can add that to the list.  We also got easily one of the best tours this band has ever done where the brand was brought to many people in many places who may have either only been casual Beach Boys fans or had incorrect predispositions about what this band was all about and could bring to the table.  For Carl and Dennis Wilson fans, their legacies were celebrated both in concert and will be on disc on the forthcoming boxset.

Second I think one of the things that a lot of us are so bummed about when it comes to the conclusion of the C50 (at least I am) is that we felt that we were sold a bill of goods that Brian, David, Alan, Bruce and Mike were all on good terms with one another and relationships between the band was more in line with the friendship they shared in the sixties rather than the acrimony of the past few decades.  Perhaps that was an assumption that we shouldn't have made.  That isn't to say they all hate one another but perhaps the old saying "you can't go home again" is appropriate when speaking of The Beach Boys.  In many cases throughout life, many of the our close friends of our adolescence and early adulthood find themselves to be mere acquaintances or sadly strangers later in life.  We grow, in some cases we regress and most of us do change over time.  Perhaps it was unfair of us as a fanbase to expect that the boys would be any different in terms of being able to turn back the clock so to speak to a much simpler time and era.

Is there any hope for reconciliation between the parties?  I think when Mike Love decided not to go forward with the C50 we as fans had to let go of the notion that first off that the C50 lineup was going to continue touring as the representative brand of "The Beach Boys".  Now many of us expected that to be so anyhow and were resigned to accept the consolation prize that the band would still be cohesive in terms of recording new album(s) and possibly staging small tours or special runs of shows to promote those records when they were released.  Obviously that was not to be either.  So I think it's probably a safe bet that we won't be seeing anymore elongated tours on the level of the C50 unless Brian Wilson (and his entourage) and Mike Love (and his entourage) ever get a chance to sit down together and work out a feasible method of touring as an inclusive unit again because obviously something (we're not sure what) didn't gel in terms of the group dynamic during the C50.

That being said 2016 is only a few short years away and that will be the 50th anniversary of "Pet Sounds".  You would think that some interested party at that point would approach all parties about the possibility of a small tour featuring the inclusive unit to celebrate one of the greatest records of all time.  So I think that could provide the impetus for one last spin of the turnstile so to speak in terms of the inclusive unit performing a few more shows together.  My personal feeling is that given enough money and a small tour with a definite start and end point that Mike Love (with Bruce) would return to the fold.  Now I know that isn't exactly how many of us pictured it playing out but for those of us hoping to be able to see The Beach Boys one more time as an inclusive unit, I think that is the most realistic scenario we can hope for.  

Beg to differ - it was all part of the greater gameplan, TSS included. That's my understanding, anyway. Your mileage may, of course, vary.

Why are you begging to differ? He said he wanted somebody to point out if TSS was part of C50 plan. He didn't state that it wasn't as fact.

You don't need to be rude at every turn.

The "beg to differ" was a response to the statement that "The 2012 remasters, "That's Why God Made The Radio", the double disc live set and "Made In California" are all byproducts of the C50". They weren't a byproduct of the success of C50, they were always part of the overall gameplan, as I understood it. I may be wrong, but seeing as the box set was announced alongside the tour, I may not.

I have given up on trying to establish whether or not Mike Love is a villain.  None of the narratives seem to agree with each other.  On one end of the spectrum you have David Leaf and his "Brian is a victim" narrative, on the other Mike Love with his explanations for disagreements ("Wilson brothers abused drugs" and "I loved SMiLE and only took issue with one lyric").  I for one love the music the BBs made in late 60's and early 70s, which, by most accounts, was something of a group effort creatively.  It's hard for me to buy the David Leaf story of the rest of the band being abusive towards Brian and corporate-minded when this music was not exactly "commercial" (both in the way the music sounds and in terms of sales).  Weren't all the Beach Boys relatively "far out" in some way or another at this point in time? 

I think most of us here will agree that much of the Beach Boys music post 70s is cheesy and uninspired, but I often wonder just how popular the Beach Boys would be if it weren't for Mike Love revisiting all the oldies.  I grew up on the Surfin Hits, and I've wondered if I would ever have discovered the more obscure Beach Boys material without this foundation.

On another note...

AGD - Is the attitude/nastiness really necessary?  It seems well established that you are knowledgeable and an insider.  What point are you trying to prove?  It's all to convenient to attack people on the internet....

But they were byproducts of C50. If there was no 50th anniversary celebration, I found it doubtful any of that would've been released.

And by C50, I'm pretty sure JohnMill meant the entire operation, not just the tour.

But I know you won't admit you could possibly be wrong. You still haven't apologized to OregonRiverfRider for that matter.


Shitty thing is, AGD has always been very helpful on the site, and while extremelly grumpy he always helped clear things up. However these days, he seems more interested in toeing the line for Mike Love and Bruce Johnston and mocking Al Jardine's statements. Note that he even defended Bruce's asinine comments that an interviewer heard over the phone last year, but taking shots at Al is fine. Hmmm...

For the most part I've written off most of the "Brian & Five Dummies" rhetoric off as just that.  For me the only person I've ever looked at in a less than favorable light is Murray Wilson.  I know the way parents disciplined their children back in the era when the boys were being brought up is very different from the way it is now but if the story about Murray/Brian and the boat is true...I mean what parent does that to their kid?  I have no doubt that on some level Murray loved his boys but judging on the stories we've all been told he doesn't seem like the most affectionate or effective parent to say the least.

Mike Love has admitted at least in interviews that I've read that back in the sixties he was kind of "square".  He didn't embrace the drug scene and asked Brian Wilson to change the lyrics to "Hang Onto You Ego" because of the LSD content.  Brian faced an uphill battle at the time he was trying to pave his way and make his mark on the industry.  He was dealing with an industry that still had an old boys mentality and had no interest in what he or other artists wanted to achieve creatively and was only interested in the bottom line.  In many cases this remains the status quo today.  But it seems that Capitol Records more so than anyone else consistently found ways to put up road blocks or hurdles for Brian Wilson to jump through when in hindsight they should have really been appreciative to have such a talent signed to their label.  Hindsight is as they say 20/20.  It's important to remember though that this was the label that also turned down "Please Please Me", "From Me To You" and "She Loves You" and then continued to butcher The Beatles' albums for years.  As John Lennon once stated "We make em, they wreck em'".  So we weren't exactly dealing with rocket scientists here anyhow.

Brian Wilson made some mistakes in the sixties in terms of his experimentation with drugs.  In fairness to him the world was a lot more innocent back then and many folks of his generation didn't put much thought into what alcohol, cigarettes or drugs could potential do to their bodies and lives if abused.  I believe it was Marilyn Wilson who said it best when she mentioned that "Brian was just far too sensitive to been fooling away with drugs the way he did" or something to that extent.  There is really not much else that needs to be said beyond that.  The whole scene is incredibly tragic and to be quite frank Brian is fortunate to be doing as well as he is today.  There are many of his contemporaries who never had the chance for a C50 period and that is obviously very sad as well.

As for AGD: Guys let it be.  I didn't take any offense and may have actually worded my original post a bit wrong in trying to get my point across.  

Drugs are pretty much a red herring, at least in Brian's case, and certainly in the '60s. The man is mentally ill, probably from bipolar disorder, but likely with some other shadings (depressive and schizoaffective), and has been from a very young age. His problems began to manifest at the classic age for these things -- around 21-22 years old -- and worsened over the next few years, again as is typical. Drug or alcohol abuse is common for these folks, and often considered the problem by those around them, when it is in fact a method of self-medication. For someone like Brian, all of the "uppers" he took were likely a way to combat depressive episodes, or drive his manic state to productive new highs.

The drugs that truly damaged Brian were prescription, and were given to him by Landy in the late 80s and early 90s. Those threatened his life and health. Brian's general attitude now is, again, relatively typical of someone who is older and has somewhat "burned through" their mental illness, which tends to happen for some in their 60s. They no longer experience quite as severe highs or lows but have a somewhat "flat" affect. Let's put it this way: Brian's increased productivity and creativity maps almost exactly with that schedule -- he's been on a roll for the last decade or so. Proper medication clearly plays a role as well.

While I agree with much with what you said regarding Brian's mental state in the sixties, I also think that his abuse of drugs exacerbated the situation to the point where he lost control of his life and that would obviously include his professional life.  I've heard people refer to Wilson time and time again as "rock's true acid casualty" and I can't say I completely disagree with that.  I think that while Wilson was likely someone who was dealing with an untreated and undiagnosed mental illness, he was also someone who generously partook in drugs and hallucinogenics to be more specific.  I think as he once stated it messed him up, messed his mind up.  I think it took him from being someone who was struggling with mental illness to the brink of self destruction and as I mentioned he's quite frankly lucky to have rebounded as well as he has.

 He just needs a bit of air. It must be hard to breathe with one's head so far up Mike's...saxophone. Looking forward to his liner notes to the Legacy Edition of LOOKING BACK WITH LOVE.

 :lol :lol :lol

AGD is gift and it's fantastic that we have people as educated and passionate as he is in the Beach Boys community...

But....somebody had to say it  :lol

That has nothing to do with what Brian's actual problems were. Just what the public perception of them was. Up until the last decade or so, it was far more acceptable socially to be a drug casualty than someone with ongoing mental illness.


It is my understanding that Brian took very few hallucinogenic drugs. And the times he tripped did not coincide with his periods of greatest crisis. Those coincided with difficulties in the group and his personal life -- again, as is often the case with mental illness.


Again, that's Brian's understanding, as explained to him over decades by people who genuinely believed that drugs were his problem -- or wanted to believe that so they wouldn't have to deal with the facts of his illness.

Here's the thing. It wasn't until a year or three ago that it was known that Brian was briefly institutionalized in 1969. That was a secret that was kept in the Beach Boys world for some 40 years. The story of him trying to give heroin to one of his daughters? That was laughed about in the 80s, IIRC.

Mental institution = Crazy, scary, must be hushed up at all costs.
Heroin to daughter = Silly drug-addict Brian. Now that he's clean, everything's all right!

That's the very definition of stigma right there.

And every time we have this discussion on the board, I always find it curious when people passionately try to argue that Brian is a drug casualty as opposed to someone with a very real and ongoing mental problem. I suspect it unnerves people to believe that, because we truly want to think that people are responsible for their actions. And Brian's problem was that he wasn't properly treated for decades and in many ways can't be held responsible for a lot of things that went wrong in his life and the band's career.

Well I'm not arguing that he didn't have an untreated and undiagnosed mental illness but still fervently believe that his abuse of drugs exacerbated the issue severely.  In one aspect we are in total agreement, in terms of whatever mental illness Brian Wilson suffered from, he at least in my opinion cannot be held responsible for the behavior stemming from these issues since unfortunately he is part of a "lost generation" many of whom suffered in silence and many others suffered greatly under the harsh treatment of an unenlightened and at times incompetent mental health system.  

As to why some passionately argue that Brian is a drug casualty rather than merely a survivor of mental illness alone?  It all comes down to how you view the matter I suppose and at the very least from where I stand the jury is still out on what caused the wheels to come off Brian's limo so to speak.  The bottom line is though obviously that he has survived and in many ways endured and that is something that I'm sure we are all very thankful for.

I think the jury is probably still out too and it could be Brian blames drugs because that is his experience.

Is this available for pre-order yet????!!!!!????

Not really-the problem is too much air and all of it hot. And yes, the 'tude is his mojo. Real shame someone couldn't have corrected the problem in junior high school. ::)

John, it be easy to say 'let it be' except that he is consistently rude, angry, condescending these days. He attacks some very nice people for no reason except that their comments apparently irritate him. He has gone from respected BB scholar and insider to what? The board bully, Mike/Bruce apologist and lord knows what else. It has grown extremely tiresome and boring.

I wonder why he doesn't just start his own blog where he can write unimpeded by us inferior humans.

Oh, for God's sake. Let the man be. He has a perspective, and he's better informed than most of us. AGD without some attitude would be like Beach Boys music without harmony.

I suppose an argument can be made that at least the live set was a byproduct of the success of the tour, or at least the fact that it didn't crash and burn. if it had royally sucked, they may have decided to forego the live DVD and CD set. I'm sure it was all part of an overall plan, but I'm not sure why there would be a need to downplay the success of the tour and C50 as a whole as if these projects would have all happened without it, or that they didn't become more likely and more successful because of the success of C50. I mean, unless you're a fan that is happy that the reunion ended and are happy to see it return the status quo.

So, you're saying that AGD should have been beaten up and punched when he was 12 years old? Nice, real nice.

Andrew's behaviour needs to be pulled up and I'm very happy to see some of the posters here take up that mantle but it's a shame such a great thread has to lose out to it.

I find it unbelievable that a forum where people will argue over the smallest piece of information or opinions, will rip on AGD. You all ought to look in the mirror before calling someone else out.

I totally agree with all of this. All the way through his supposed "lost period", say '72 - '82, he could still be lucid, witty and, well..... Brian Something drastic happened to him during the 2nd Landy tenure that changed him forever.

Exactly.


That is a really over the line. Not cool.

I also am a proponent of the stroke theory, which everyone close to Brian denies, but which wouldn't surprise me in the least. Because not only did Brian's behavior change, but it also seems like he literally forgot how to sing during the 80s.

Though you and I disagree at times Wirestone, I am pretty convinced a stroke did indeed happen around 1985-86.

Couldn't it just be because he was given so many of the wrong drugs?

Having had the opportunity in my lifetime to work with some stroke patients on a regular basis I can't say you are entirely off the mark here.  The problem is why if indeed this is more than a theory has everyone denied it?  Having a stroke isn't necessarily something to be ashamed of and many actually are able to rebound from it pretty well.  I guess what I'm trying to say is you aren't off the mark for thinking this way but there are just too many questions surrounding such a theory for me to believe it to be anything else than just that at this point. 

I suspect Landy thought it would reflect poorly on his care, especially if he had BW on some crazy cocktail of meds at the time. By the time BW got free in the early 90s, it may have been too late for his family to establish for certain what had happened.

And yet you've managed to?  ;)

I, too, have wondered about a stroke and thought it might be a possibility. But, I always come to this conclusion which makes me think otherwise. Brian has been dating/married to Melinda for almost 20 years. During that time, with Melinda's initiative, Brian has been receiving excellent care, both with his doctors and prescribed medication. But, as part of that care, I would think that Brian underwent his share of testing, including at least one MRI and CAT scan on his brain. Those tests (and others) would show the effects of a stroke.

Like JohnMill expressed, a stroke is not something to be denied or ashamed of, especially in Melinda's case, as she has spoken openly about Brian's mental illness - which, unfortunately, has a more negative stigma attached to it. I would think if Brian had a stroke, it would've been diagnosed, would've "come out" somehow, and Melinda - or Brian with Melinda's encouragement - might've addressed in an interview.

Remind me to tell you guys about my theory that Mike developed hemorrhoids in 1978.

Touche!

I was told a story by a few different sources that I can't prove so I won't print. Here all I will say is that it seems it happened during a plastic surgery to fix a check bone Murry had crushed.

EDIT: Oh, never mind. As you were, teen gang.

Hey I saw that crap and here is my response. You try to be honest and give real info with the caveat that it isn't something provable enough to print and it is twisted into something more than that? Why don't people like yourself spend the personal and professional time authors invest to try to get the truth out there. I am not stating a fact, merely a story I was told. Why I don't name names? Because if I am not trusted to keep my private sources private then I can't get the truth in the future. I am trying to air a story that may piece together a few things for people. Maybe even for the Wilson's today who likely were not told what Landy put Brian through.

Oh, ok. It's a noble crusade to HELP the Wilsons. I see.

I do spend plenty of time interviewing people, making documentaries, and publishing books nobody reads. You'll find that's not exactly a rarity around here, you could hit an author by striking out in any direction! But thanks for the interest and journalism lesson, scoop. Pardon me if it seems not exactly backed up by anything tangible. You'll find people are more prone to be credible when you provide facts and sources instead of hinting, rumormongering, and getting on your high Woodward/Bernstein horse.

I thought your research was about the MUSIC, man. None of this gossip stuff that ruins so many other books. What gives?

Interesting. Can you tell us what year this surgery occurred?

Proud of you PAL keep going! Anyhow it is not intended by me to help, or hurt, that is your view of it. I am adding to the discussion by saying that Brian may have indeed had a stroke and that I heard a story I could not confirm with any of the principles. Not saying it is true, just that it is a story that has been put forth as the truth several times.

I think it happened sometime in 1985 or 1986. There is a Paul McCartney doc Brian took part in shot in the summer of 1986. His mouth is very droopy.

Alright, sorry for exploding violently. But you could see how someone would take a statement like that, hmm?

About the droop: he's had that since childhood tho! Tends to be more pronounced the more insecure he is. I'm sure there are threads about it.

Stop being an ass and accept Mike's explanation. Never heard of source confidentiality? Brian is MUSIC, of course he is going to hear stories about the man, as well as his music. Grow Up!

Thanks for the info Mike.

Should I apologize a second time, daddy? Do me a favor and

The stroke rumors have been circulating at least since I got online in the mid 90s tho, and you're going to need more than "his mouth is droopy" to make that one work. I can find people that would spread that rumor too, but what is it based on?

Wrote it while you were in the midst of apologizing, Son. Good Boy, Ubu! :)

I promise i'll mow that lawn this weekend!

It's hard not to theorize tho, huh. It's hard not to think... SOMETHING HAPPENED. I think I'm just defensive after being around my grandmother a decade ago after a series of strokes over a few years and it was not a matter of droopy mouth, slur some words and look kinda babyish behind a keyboard time. Heh.

Did records ever emerge during the 2nd Landy hooha over what the actual drug diet consisted of? I've just read the bits in the bios.

Also, I heard Al Jardine is talkin' trash in an interview and actin' all tough. Somebody better have a word.

I always believed that he may have had a slight stroke, but I also understood that the meds Landy had him on was a cocktail that could do more harm than good, and almost did. I never worried about him talking out of the side of his mouth, as after seeing his mother talk like that, and even Brian doing it very early in the first Landy era, I just took that as genetics.

yeah, that's about what I figured as well. What was the Landy cocktail exactly? Anybody have the specifics? What were the drugs that could possibly cause long term damage?

...and where can I get them? I want to turn my roommate into a performing drug zombie.

Even watching some footage from the 60's it seems to me Brian has always talked out of the side of his mouth.

You know something, I'd never wish cancer on anybody but when I heard that's what Landy died of my first thought was that the bastard got what he deserved.

Some years ago, maybe 5-6 years ago (?), somebody posted on this board that the drugs that Landy dispensed to Brian would not have had long term, damaging effects. Short term, of course, but not long term. I don't recall this poster's name, but he had some background in the medical field (so he said), he had some knowledge of the Landy/Brian relationship (so he said), and he came across as convincing. I wish I could retrieve his post, or remember his username, but, then again, he might've been totally inaccurate.

Yeah, I'm curious to know the details as the "Landy drugs ruined him forever" bit always sounded a bit off but I'm an ignorant idiot, so maybe there is some sort of medication that does that was unaccountably over-prescribed despite the ability to cause permanent physical damage.

 Seems like the whole underlying mental issues would be the biggest problem that fame, drugs, and dad didn't help much. I wonder what the party line will become for the film and memoirs. Movies like pat narratives. The power of love destroys mental illness and drugs forever!

God, the price you pay being a public person who has a problem. Yikes. People dissecting you and thinking they have you figured out... and that's just the sympathetic ones! Sigh. This thread was a lot more fun when we were fantasizing about a battle of the bands.

A recent typical post by poor, ripped on AGD. , "I'd be inclined to give this post more weight if only it wasn't so nearly illiterate. Get someone to show you how to use spell check. Grammar check too."

Unfortunately,  these kind of posts are all too common from him.

For some reason the spellcheck funtion on this board doesn't work for me anymore, the window just comes up blank. Never before have my mediocre spelling skills been put to such a test.

I don't know much about the subject, so I should probably shut up, but wasn't Brian diagnosed with Tardive dyskinesia? Since this is a drug-caused disorder, I'd say he definitely was long-term damaged.

Well, considering we have to read through these messy-type posts, I have to agree with him. Shoot, even using 5th grade grammar & spelling would help here immensely. Take some pride in what you write and how you write it.

Can you drop the anti-AGD rhetoric. It is getting tiresome and you are coming across as butthurt.

Obviously, you are reading the board with blinders on. Just go back in this thread alone. If you think this wording of his post is ok then that says something very strongly about you.

No, I don't like bullies. But if you are going diss me in a thread, I will answer back....otherwise, feel free to PM me.

Who would judge that battle of the bands?  I would vouch for the applause-o-meter but if the BW band finished with surf's up people might forget to clap and just stare blankly at the stage

Definitely go with the applause-o-meter. And Bruce Johnston in a dunk tank. JUST BECAUSE.

That is a side effect of long term use of many anti-psychotic drugs - however, Brian turns out to not have schizophrenia so Landy was giving him the wrong drugs.  He misdiagnosed him.

'If you are going to diss me...'? Diss? Why are we all suddenly talking as if we're from the ghetto? 'Nuff respect bro.

Step off nigga before I pop a cap in yo' ass.

Representing The Beach Boys. Word to yo' mutha. Historical.

Da kine bro.

And happy birthday to Bruce Johnston today. 71 years young.

The man who brought schmaltzy back! All hail Historical.

I've heard that story too, as well as the plastic surgery bit. I think it was circulated pretty commonly in the BW fan communities at one point -- I started on the boards in the mid- to late-90s and believe I heard it there.

71 eh? That's roughly one good song every 35 and a half years. Keep it up Bruce!

On another note, there is much about The Boys' post 70s output that I find to be highly inspired, even glorious, such as Goin' On, Livin' With A Heartache, Getcha Back, even I'm So Lonely has its charms.

Livin' With A Heartache is just gosh darn drop dead gorgeous!

This reminds me of the last line from the Jack Nicholson film, "Forget it, Jake.  It's Chinatown."

Hey, what it is, funkay dude?  What's goin' down?  Hey brotha, I'm happy, pappy, black and nappy, ain't too proud to bitch, only my momma loves me but she could be jivin' too!  Know what I'm sayin', yo?

It really is. A lotta people here don't seem to care for it for some reason. I don't know why. One of Carl's best deliveries...

It's an awesome song. To my ears, it's by far the best on KTSA (with the title track a comfortable second). I absolutely love the descending melody on the chorus: 'After all this time/I still wish you were mine...' Great stuff!

I dig the song and is the only one I really like off of that album.

It's in one of the books, forget which (Gaines ? White ?).

I also like "Livin' with a Heartache".  I think Carl could sing anything and make it sound better than it really was, but this song is a good one.

That would explain the dent in his right cheek, I've always wondered about that.

They played it live during a multi-date stay at the Palace Theatre in Cleveland (gotta check Bellagio for the exact date). As I recall, Mike said 'we're gonna play a new one by Carl that a lot of people seem to like...'

Always liked that one. Shoulda been on MIC. Or maybe the alternate version. With banjo and jews harp.

(made that last bit up to stir the pot)

I want a KTSA Sessions box set! :smokin

I saw the Beach Boys perform "Livin' With A Heartache" at The Spectrum in Philadelphia in 1980. After the concert there was a live interview broadcast on a Philly radio station with Bruce and Brian. Bruce announced "Livin' With A Heartache" as the group's new single.

Yes, I also think "Livin' With A Hard On" should've been included on MIC, as should all the group's singles. But, that's for another thread, I guess... :police:

The disc jockey was Micheal Tozzi on WIOQ-FM.

Realistically I guess the single version of Livin' With a Heartache does deserve to be included on a rarities collection at some point.

"Livin' With A Heartache" is one of my favorite Carl-penned tunes, but my favorite by far on KTSA is Santa Ana Winds. They should have included that on MIC, a version where the intro is without the silly voice over. I know I may be the only one, but that recording moves me as much as Pet Sounds tracks do.

When I revisited BW88 some time ago I was surprised to find the singing way better than I remembered. A bit better even than on BB85, I would say. So I'm out for the 85/86 stroke theory.


Personally, I think I spell pretty well, but a badly spelled post from someone else can still be of much better content than mine.

Check out the post in question, then tell me I'm wrong. It actually hurt to read.

If one doesn't get too distracted trying to decipher it. There is not only bad spelling, but bad punctuation and bad grammar. I probably skip over some pretty good posts because they are too tough to read.

The Timothy White book refers to him going for a facelift and the surgeon postponing the operation when his heart rate suddenly dropped due to the medication Landy had put him on. Was this the stroke we're discussing ? Possibly, maybe it was but White couldn't say, or didn't know.

This music part was added later so I had yet to respond. Yes that is right the music is the focus, which is why this type of thing is not in the book. The only reason it might have gone in is because Brian changed a lot from 1983 on and 1986 seems to be a real tipping point as to when things got ugly. That effects the music, yes? No matter anyhow because I am careful what I use and don't use.

Yes the story I heard was about that day.

"Yeah, he was moving soooooo slow in that crosswalk I had to run him over. No, I just couldn't drive around him, he is such an infantile walker". "the legendary Georg Ludwig von Trapp"

I remember reading that post, it didn't hurt me, I've read worse, but there's several ways one can react to spelling like that. Some of these ways are nicer than others, but I'm not interested in having an argument about stuff like this anyway.

Wouldn't we all Micha, wouldn't we all. Nicely said. As the saing goes, "if you can't say something nice, ....".

Flame Wars - Sound familiar?


http://www.webpronews.com/internet-bullies-the-ugly-truth-about-online-forums-and-how-business-owners-can-stop-the-verbal-abuse-2001-08

Actually, if I remember correctly (too lazy to check that), Andrew actually did say something nice about that posting, but it was buried deep down in his teaching the poster about his shortcomings.

Now probably Andrew will correct my grammar in that last phrase.

Why do you take exception with wanting to write well? I don't get this line of thinking. I guess it's ok, because you don't have to read your own shitty grammar? The one's who have to try and read it are the ones who have to suffer through it. If someone doesn't care how they write down their thoughts, then why should we care about their thoughts and opinions?

I do try to write well. But, as I said, I don't want to have an argument, so let's get back to Al.

It was not directed specifically at you. It was just a general statement.

hey hey, it's not nice to complain if you're also making the crummy grammar! It's "Doesn't care how they write their thoughts"

You're right! Thank you for letting me know. It has been corrected to "doesn't".

Apparently sudden drops in BP, if they go on for awhile, are known to trigger ischemic strokes. This is probably what White is hinting at ...

by post 70s you mean after holland but not including love you right? I agree that holland was their last solid group effort, altho some would say sunflower...

Why did you bump a thread that hasn't been posted in for over a year?!

Because he is a kook.

I would rather him be an OSD..... ;)

I'm locking this.