were they lacking in a lennon -esque figure?

[Jim V.]

First off all, what is the obsession with comparing The Beach Boys with The Beatles? Beatles fans are comfortable enough with their favorite group that they don't compare them to The Beach Boys, but it seems like Beach Boys fans always seem to want to make them into The Beatles? What's the point?

Also, it's not up to me to decide who a genius is, but I gotta say calling Dennis a genius is a bit much. One solid, really good, but not exactly groundbreaking album and a few scattered songs does not a genius make. Sorry.

[FatherOfTheMan Sr101]

Dennis is a genius. Be with me, forever, little bird, the whole POB, baby blue, most of sunflower, WIBTLA, the unfinished album, TEACHING HIMSELF HOW TO MAKE AND WRITE ALL OF THAT. Seriously guys?

[Nicko1234]

Dennis is a genius. Be with me, forever, little bird, the whole POB, baby blue, most of sunflower, WIBTLA, the unfinished album, TEACHING HIMSELF HOW TO MAKE AND WRITE ALL OF THAT. Seriously guys?

Compare that to what Brian did in terms of quality and quantity and there is no comparison.

I like many of Dennis's songs but try looking at his career with a little objectivity.

[Jon Stebbins]

Dennis is a genius. Be with me, forever, little bird, the whole POB, baby blue, most of sunflower, WIBTLA, the unfinished album, TEACHING HIMSELF HOW TO MAKE AND WRITE ALL OF THAT. Seriously guys?

Compare that to what Brian did in terms of quality and quantity and there is no comparison.

You've just pointed out what everything Dennis created was up against from day one. Thanks.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Quantity, yes, Brian has him beat. Quality? Well, they both had their own trip, so it is subjective. To me it was equal, just in different ways.

[dwtherealbb]

This is not meant to be a comparison of talents between the groups. What this is meant to do is to say if the Beach Boys would have been better with someone who had a more combative personality. It might have kept the group in the top 40 after 1966, but it also would have broken the group up when there time had come. Here's a good quote I think that encapsulates this sort of attitude:

"No, wait a minute. Let's stay with this a second; sometimes I can't let go of it. Nobody ever said anything about Paul's having a spell on me or my having one on Paul! They never thought that was abnormal in those days, two guys together, or four guys together! Why didn't they ever say, 'How come those guys don't split up? I mean, what's going on backstage? What is this Paul and John business? How can they be together so long?' We spent more time together in the early days than John and Yoko: the four of us sleeping in the same room, practically in the same bed, in the same truck, living together night and day, eating, shitting and pissing together! All right? Doing everything together! Nobody said a damn thing about being under a spell. Maybe they said we were under the spell of Brian Epstein or George Martin. There's always somebody who has to be doing something to you. You know, they're congratulating the Stones on being together 112 years. Whoooopee! At least Charlie and Bill still got their families. In the Eighties, they'll be asking, 'Why are those guys still together? Can't they hack it on their own? Why do they have to be surrounded by a gang? Is the little leader scared somebody's gonna knife him in the back?' That's gonna be the question. That's-a-gonna be the question! They're gonna look back at the Beatles and the Stones and all those guys as relics. The days when those bands were just all men will be on the newsreels, you know. They will be showing pictures of the guy with lipstick wriggling his ass and the four guys with the evil black make-up on their eyes trying to look raunchy. That's gonna be the joke in the future, not a couple singing together or living and working together. It's all right when you're 16, 17, 18 to have male companions and idols, OK? It's tribal and it's gang and it's fine. But when it continues and you're still doing it when you're 40, that means you're still 16 in the head."

[Mr. Cohen]

They lacked another creative force that was on the same level as Brian, but who knows how it would have worked if they had two brilliant guys instead of one. Most bands only have room for one leader. That's part of what sat the Beatles apart, and also part of why they broke up. You're talking about a band that was so stacked with talent that George Harrison was the #3 guy.

Um... Al Jardine much? Without Al, we don't have "Sloop John B". If Al wasn't always playing that darn Western riff, we don't have "California Girls". If Al doesn't help Brian to keep his teeth clean, we lose that falsetto so much sooner.

Al was a genius. "Lady Linda"? C'mon!

[Mike's Beard]

Dennis is a genius. Be with me, forever, little bird, the whole POB, baby blue, most of sunflower, WIBTLA, the unfinished album, TEACHING HIMSELF HOW TO MAKE AND WRITE ALL OF THAT. Seriously guys?

Compare that to what Brian did in terms of quality and quantity and there is no comparison.

I like many of Dennis's songs but try looking at his career with a little objectivity.

If we all started throwing around the word "genius" to every songwriter/musician that we like then the term would lose it's impact pretty soon. Dennis wrote some fantastic songs and made a bloody good solo album but he's still a distant second compared to what his older brother was achieving at his peak. It's not like the guy was dishing out amazingly complex six part harmonies as easily as most people breathe or dumbfounding grizzled veterans of the LA session scene with chord compositions that in theory shouldn't have worked. Dennis was not in my opinion a genius (just a hardworking guy!)

[Mike's Beard]

BTW say what you like about Mike Love but at least he had the good grace to never pose stark bollock naked with his ugly wife on an album cover.

[Jon Stebbins]

Dennis is a genius. Be with me, forever, little bird, the whole POB, baby blue, most of sunflower, WIBTLA, the unfinished album, TEACHING HIMSELF HOW TO MAKE AND WRITE ALL OF THAT. Seriously guys?

Compare that to what Brian did in terms of quality and quantity and there is no comparison.

I like many of Dennis's songs but try looking at his career with a little objectivity.

If we all started throwing around the word "genius" to every songwriter/musician that we like then the term would lose it's impact pretty soon. Dennis wrote some fantastic songs and made a bloody good solo album but he's still a distant second compared to what his older brother was achieving at his peak. It's not like the guy was dishing out amazingly complex six part harmonies as easily as most people breathe or dumbfounding grizzled veterans of the LA session scene with chord compositions that in theory shouldn't have worked. Dennis was not in my opinion a genius (just a hardworking guy!)

Daryl Dragon on Dennis Wilson the composer…

“I was really blown away. I did see a similarity between Wagner and Dennis Wilson. …It was like something that I learned in school: I know that I don't have it …It's called a tap on the universe. Mozart had it. Carole King probably had it. They get a tap, they know when it's right and they play it and record it and then that's it...a completed work. …It came through them and they don't even know where it came from. …That's why Dennis liked me, because I could translate just like Salieri did for Mozart. It was my job to try and translate and capture emotionally what he was doing. …I believed in Dennis but I didn't believe that he had an avenue to make it through the Beach Boys because of the image and because of the internal problems and where they wanted to go hip-wise.
Mike and Al wanted Brian to write what he was doing back in the old days about surfing chicks and all that. They didn't want to go romantic, which I can maybe understand because it's not a big market. It's too bad. For Dennis there was so much frustration. I think that if you get locked out and you have so much to say that doesn't help your urge to want to live. Your whole future and what you wanted to do - what you were put on the earth for.”

More Daryl Dragon on Dennis Wilson...

"Before a typical tour sound check, I saw Dennis sitting at the piano, playing some beautiful chords. I walked over to him, and asked him what composer that was: He answered.. ‘I wrote that’. I was stopped COLD !! He hummed a melody to these absolutely inspired chords, and I realized that Brian was not the only musical-innovator in the family. I theorized that because Dennis was really a very romantic writer, that - if he had perhaps been born during Wagner’s time, that his life / career may have been completely different. I realized that Dennis’ heart was NOT in Rock and Roll, as much as it was in romantically-based musical writing.

Unfortunately, ‘romantic musical writing’ wasn’t being played on the radio (that year...) so, another brilliant musician / writer sits undiscovered during the sixties - seventies - eighties - nineties - era. What a sad state of affairs for music-exposure-to-the-masses in general."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MI3_F8Ll0Lg

[runnersdialzero]

Dennis is a genius. Be with me, forever, little bird, the whole POB, baby blue, most of sunflower, WIBTLA, the unfinished album, TEACHING HIMSELF HOW TO MAKE AND WRITE ALL OF THAT. Seriously guys?

Compare that to what Brian did in terms of quality and quantity and there is no comparison.

I like many of Dennis's songs but try looking at his career with a little objectivity.

They're not really comparable. Regardless, who gives a sh*t if Dennis wasn't nearly as prolific from 61-83 as Brian or if Brian probably has the better songs? Great songs are great songs.

[Mike's Beard]

Putting Dennis Wilson in the same league as Mozart is overreaching just a tad.

[SMiLE Brian]

 Dennis was highly talented while Brian was a genius.

Dennis could have never written "Good Vibrations".

Brian could have never written "River Song".

[Jon Stebbins]

Putting Dennis Wilson in the same league as Mozart is overreaching just a tad.

I suppose assuming your opinion is more informed than Daryl Dragon's is not overreaching...just a tad?

The Dragon quotes were offered in response to your assertion up the thread about Dennis Wilson... "it's not like the guy was...dumbfounding grizzled veterans of the LA session scene with chord compositions that in theory shouldn't have worked." In truth he did. I gave you a solid example. You choose to dismiss it. There are plenty more, Dennis was constantly blowing serious musicians away with his progressions, you should read up on him because there are numerous examples of this happening. Lindsey Buckingham said exactly that to me in person and on camera...Dennis "dumbfounded" him with his progressions. The statement you made saying it never happened is untrue.

No need to compare him to Brian either, Dennis had a different vibe, darker, not as accessible, not as pretty...equally spiritual and equally original.

[urbanite]

I liked Dennis, but there wasn't any particular song of his that I would describe as a classic.  His solo album is okay, not great.  I have read much about the unreleased WIBNTLA.  Maybe that will be the song that will blow me away.

[SMiLE Brian]

I honestly think POB's production is really overblown with Dennis packing too much on each song.

Brian was more balanced in his productions and didn't exhaust the listener.

[Cabinessenceking]

I honestly think POB's production is really overblown with Dennis packing too much on each song.

Brian was more balanced in his productions and didn't exhaust the listener.

Agree, Brian's emotional song's are far better than Dennis'. Even though I really enjoy POB it does at times exhaust me quite much, and I have the feeling each song is about the same thing (which it was) and that it was lacking in the variation that Brian managed to provide the listener with. Viewed individually Dennis' songs were very, very good with solid and tasteful production. Perhaps he was a little too creamy for me to rank him high up next to Brian.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Comparing Brian's productions to Dennis' productions is like comparing apples to oranges. Two completely different styles. 'Better' is more 'preference' in this case. It'd be like comparing Frank Sinatra to Ray Charles.

[filledeplage]

Dennis is a genius. Be with me, forever, little bird, the whole POB, baby blue, most of sunflower, WIBTLA, the unfinished album, TEACHING HIMSELF HOW TO MAKE AND WRITE ALL OF THAT. Seriously guys?
[/quote
Compare that to what Brian did in terms of quality and quantity and there is no comparison.
I like many of Dennis's songs but try looking at his career with a little objectivity.

If we all started throwing around the word "genius" to every songwriter/musician that we like then the term would lose it's impact pretty soon. Dennis wrote some fantastic songs and made a bloody good solo album but he's still a distant second compared to what his older brother was achieving at his peak. It's not like the guy was dishing out amazingly complex six part harmonies as easily as most people breathe or dumbfounding grizzled veterans of the LA session scene with chord compositions that in theory shouldn't have worked. Dennis was not in my opinion a genius (just a hardworking guy!)

Daryl Dragon on Dennis Wilson the composer…

“I was really blown away. I did see a similarity between Wagner and Dennis Wilson. …It was like something that I learned in school: I know that I don't have it …It's called a tap on the universe. Mozart had it. Carole King probably had it. They get a tap, they know when it's right and they play it and record it and then that's it...a completed work. …It came through them and they don't even know where it came from. …That's why Dennis liked me, because I could translate just like Salieri did for Mozart. It was my job to try and translate and capture emotionally what he was doing. …I believed in Dennis but I didn't believe that he had an avenue to make it through the Beach Boys because of the image and because of the internal problems and where they wanted to go hip-wise.
Mike and Al wanted Brian to write what he was doing back in the old days about surfing chicks and all that. They didn't want to go romantic, which I can maybe understand because it's not a big market. It's too bad. For Dennis there was so much frustration. I think that if you get locked out and you have so much to say that doesn't help your urge to want to live. Your whole future and what you wanted to do - what you were put on the earth for.”

More Daryl Dragon on Dennis Wilson...

"Before a typical tour sound check, I saw Dennis sitting at the piano, playing some beautiful chords. I walked over to him, and asked him what composer that was: He answered.. ‘I wrote that’. I was stopped COLD !! He hummed a melody to these absolutely inspired chords, and I realized that Brian was not the only musical-innovator in the family. I theorized that because Dennis was really a very romantic writer, that - if he had perhaps been born during Wagner’s time, that his life / career may have been completely different. I realized that Dennis’ heart was NOT in Rock and Roll, as much as it was in romantically-based musical writing.

Unfortunately, ‘romantic musical writing’ wasn’t being played on the radio (that year...) so, another brilliant musician / writer sits undiscovered during the sixties - seventies - eighties - nineties - era. What a sad state of affairs for music-exposure-to-the-masses in general."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MI3_F8Ll0Lg

Jon - that was brilliant...I never heard it, and there is much credentialed truth in what you say about Dennis.  How could he have plowed through "the mission?"  If Brian had trouble selling Pet Sounds to the record people, it would have been multiplied exponentially, for Dennis, especially since he was typecast as a drummer.  

Percussionists are often quite talented, and overlooked.  I love seeing Dennis at the piano, delighted that he was out in front, and with the audience.  They are rare clips of Dennis, at the piano. Thanks again for providing the background of Dennis' contemporaries regard for Dennis' work.  I learned a great deal from your post.  

And, romantic music was not the demand.  His work on POB, is almost too intense to listen to at times,  but it has a beautiful simplicity that only a gifted composer could articulate.  And, I'll bet Daryl was a great "translator" for him.  It is loaded with wonderful music images, and emotion.  Thanks for including the YouTube.  It blew me away.  

[Jon Stebbins]

Jon - that was brilliant...I never heard it, and there is much credentialed truth in what you say about Dennis.  How could he have plowed through "the mission?"  If Brian had trouble selling Pet Sounds to the record people, it would have been multiplied exponentially, for Dennis, especially since he was typecast as a drummer.  

Percussionists are often quite talented, and overlooked.  I love seeing Dennis at the piano, delighted that he was out in front, and with the audience.  They are rare clips of Dennis, at the piano. Thanks again for providing the background of Dennis' contemporaries regard for Dennis' work.  I learned a great deal from your post.  

And, romantic music was not the demand.  His work on POB, is almost too intense to listen to at times,  but it has a beautiful simplicity that only a gifted composer could articulate.  And, I'll bet Daryl was a great "translator" for him.  It is loaded with wonderful music images, and emotion.  Thanks for including the YouTube.  It blew me away.  

Thanks for listening with an open mind.

[bgas]

Just remember: Murry was a genius too!  ( It runs in the family) 

[Mike's Beard]

Putting Dennis Wilson in the same league as Mozart is overreaching just a tad.

I suppose assuming your opinion is more informed than Daryl Dragon's is not overreaching...just a tad?

So you honestly think that Dennis Wilson's musical accomplishments should be ranked on the same level as that of Mozart's?
Do you think you could try once, just once to show a little objectivity when it comes to either Dennis Wilson or David Marks?

The Dragon quotes were offered in response to your assertion up the thread about Dennis Wilson... "it's not like the guy was...dumbfounding grizzled veterans of the LA session scene with chord compositions that in theory shouldn't have worked." In truth he did. I gave you a solid example. You choose to dismiss it. There are plenty more, Dennis was constantly blowing serious musicians away with his progressions, you should read up on him because there are numerous examples of this happening. Lindsey Buckingham said exactly that to me in person and on camera...Dennis "dumbfounded" him with his progressions. The statement you made saying it never happened is untrue.

And I did not dismiss your example, merely interpreted it's context as people being blown away by the emotional impact of some of Dennis's best work which is not the same as 'seen it all' session pros and musical scholars telling Brian that certain passages cannot work in a musical sense and then being proved wrong by the 20 something prodigy.

[Magic Transistor Radio]

The Beach Boys did have a Lennon figure. His name is Mike Love!!!   

[Nicko1234]

I suppose assuming your opinion is more informed than Daryl Dragon's is not overreaching...just a tad?

As Daryl Dragon was close friends with Dennis he is hardly the person to go to for an objective opinion. That would be like taking every word that Bruce says about Mike as gospel.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Dennis's compositions did have many classical elements that weren't always apparent when he had fuller productions. Barbara is a good example as is Cuddle Up. Also, remember that hearing him alone with just a piano would sound different than a full recording. Just my two cents.