Awesome New Mike Love Article!!

[KDS]

The more I think about it, the more I believe that Mike's biggest issue is the lack of respect he gets. Let's face it - of all the Beach Boys he is the least respected within the music industry.

When Brian wanted to become more serious he utilized other singers and lyricists.

He has worked his butt off to keep the brand going (whether that is a good thing or a bad thing is another issue) and during C50 the big round of applause goes to Brian.

He needs to tear Brian down in order that enhance his reputation as a part of the Beach Boys legacy.

He needs to tear down peers (RRHOF) in order to build himself up as performer when compared to Jagger or Springsteen.

"Picese Brothers" is to remind everyone of his close friendship with George Harrison.

He inspired "Back In the USSR".

Since " Kokomo" is the largest selling BB single it is their greatest achievement.

Mike believes that he is the equal of Brian (and Springsteen and Jagger) and it grates on him that nobody else sees it.

Pretty much.  I think he also believes that, had he received the songwriting credits when the BB were in their prime, he may have received a little more respect. 

[The LEGENDARY OSD]

The more I think about it, the more I believe that Mike's biggest issue is the lack of respect he gets. Let's face it - of all the Beach Boys he is the least respected within the music industry.

When Brian wanted to become more serious he utilized other singers and lyricists.

He has worked his butt off to keep the brand going (whether that is a good thing or a bad thing is another issue) and during C50 the big round of applause goes to Brian.

He needs to tear Brian down in order that enhance his reputation as a part of the Beach Boys legacy.

He needs to tear down peers (RRHOF) in order to build himself up as performer when compared to Jagger or Springsteen.

"Picese Brothers" is to remind everyone of his close friendship with George Harrison.

He inspired "Back In the USSR".

Since " Kokomo" is the largest selling BB single it is their greatest achievement.

Mike believes that he is the equal of Brian (and Springsteen and Jagger) and it grates on him that nobody else sees it.

Pretty much.  I think he also believes that, had he received the songwriting credits when the BB were in their prime, he may have received a little more respect. 

Seriously doubt that.

[HeyJude]

I think casino shows reared their head not too long after Carl initially succeeded in at least not booking any additional casino shows.

Tricky to pin down, as we don't know which shows were already booked when Carl returned in 1982. With that caveat...

May  2 - Jack Murphy Stadium, San Diego CA (Carl's "official" return)

July 15 - MGM Grand, Las Vegas NV (first of seven dates)

September 8 - Superstar Theater at Resorts International Hotel Casino, Atlantic City NJ (first of four shows in two days)

December 27 -  Harrah’s Tahoe, Stateline NV (first of seven dates)

So, certainly within eight months of his return, Carl had agreed - happily or not - to do casinos.

Exactly. Whether Carl ever actually blocked the booking of further casino shows is unclear (there's really just that one article, reprinted I believe in the "Add Some Music to Your Day" fanzine reprint book, that I recall actually mentions that casino shows were a specific issue for Carl), but either way they were doing them in the same calendar year he rejoined and were probably doing even more of them in subsequent years as the stadium and amphitheater bookings declined in favor of smaller venues.

I think when Carl rejoined he had more success in changing a few elements of the touring band, more success getting the band to rehearse at least a little bit more, and in getting the setlist a little bit more interesting.

Also of course worth keeping in mind is that Carl came back into the band trying to spiff it up a bit right as Dennis and Brian were at arguably their all-time lows (not even talking so much musically, but just the tumult that their plights contributed to). That the 1982 and 1983 shows with Carl sounded as solid as they did is noteworthy.

[Robbie Mac]

The more I think about it, the more I believe that Mike's biggest issue is the lack of respect he gets. Let's face it - of all the Beach Boys he is the least respected within the music industry.

When Brian wanted to become more serious he utilized other singers and lyricists.

He has worked his butt off to keep the brand going (whether that is a good thing or a bad thing is another issue) and during C50 the big round of applause goes to Brian.

He needs to tear Brian down in order that enhance his reputation as a part of the Beach Boys legacy.

He needs to tear down peers (RRHOF) in order to build himself up as performer when compared to Jagger or Springsteen.

"Picese Brothers" is to remind everyone of his close friendship with George Harrison.

He inspired "Back In the USSR".

Since " Kokomo" is the largest selling BB single it is their greatest achievement.

Mike believes that he is the equal of Brian (and Springsteen and Jagger) and it grates on him that nobody else sees it.

Pretty much.  I think he also believes that, had he received the songwriting credits when the BB were in their prime, he may have received a little more respect. 

Seriously doubt that.

Why do you say that? And give a detailed answer instead of the usual schtick.

FYI, I hate rap. With a passion. But, at the same time, I can see and understand why it appeals to the mainstream.  You don't have to like something to understand why others like it.

[Emily]

The more I think about it, the more I believe that Mike's biggest issue is the lack of respect he gets. Let's face it - of all the Beach Boys he is the least respected within the music industry.

When Brian wanted to become more serious he utilized other singers and lyricists.

He has worked his butt off to keep the brand going (whether that is a good thing or a bad thing is another issue) and during C50 the big round of applause goes to Brian.

He needs to tear Brian down in order that enhance his reputation as a part of the Beach Boys legacy.

He needs to tear down peers (RRHOF) in order to build himself up as performer when compared to Jagger or Springsteen.

"Picese Brothers" is to remind everyone of his close friendship with George Harrison.

He inspired "Back In the USSR".

Since " Kokomo" is the largest selling BB single it is their greatest achievement.

Mike believes that he is the equal of Brian (and Springsteen and Jagger) and it grates on him that nobody else sees it.

Pretty much.  I think he also believes that, had he received the songwriting credits when the BB were in their prime, he may have received a little more respect. 

Seriously doubt that.

Why do you say that? And give a detailed answer instead of the usual schtick.

FYI, I hate rap. With a passion. But, at the same time, I can see and understand why it appeals to the mainstream.  You don't have to like something to understand why others like it.

I won't speak for The LEGENDARY OSD, but I agree with him on this. Mike Love wasn't consistently enough Brian Wilson's lyricist for them to be thought of as a Goffin/King, Taupin/John, Jagger/Richards type pair. It would still be Brian Wilson and his various lyricists, one of whom was Mike Love. And the sort of lyrics Mike Love wrote, regardless of whether one likes them, or their appropriateness for the music or even their skill, aren't the sort that makes one famous as a lyricist. How many lyricists are publicly thought of as 'great lyricists' who weren't either: part of a famous song-writing team; wrote about 'meaningful' subjects; or wrote particularly artistic, interesting lyrics?
So, Beach Boys' fans now know what he wrote and give him the appropriate credit. Non-fans (not meaning people who dislike the Beach Boys particularly but the general non-active fan) wouldn't think one way another. He's no Dylan or Lennon or Baez or Joni Mitchell. Regardless of how any individual appreciates his lyrics, they aren't the type to get publicly fussed over. I mean, the songs are out there, and no one's publicly fussing over the lyrics, other than saying they're the quintessential "girls, surfing, cars" thing. And I think Mike Love is already publicly associated with that.

[CenturyDeprived]

The more I think about it, the more I believe that Mike's biggest issue is the lack of respect he gets. Let's face it - of all the Beach Boys he is the least respected within the music industry.

When Brian wanted to become more serious he utilized other singers and lyricists.

He has worked his butt off to keep the brand going (whether that is a good thing or a bad thing is another issue) and during C50 the big round of applause goes to Brian.

He needs to tear Brian down in order that enhance his reputation as a part of the Beach Boys legacy.

He needs to tear down peers (RRHOF) in order to build himself up as performer when compared to Jagger or Springsteen.

"Picese Brothers" is to remind everyone of his close friendship with George Harrison.

He inspired "Back In the USSR".

Since " Kokomo" is the largest selling BB single it is their greatest achievement.

Mike believes that he is the equal of Brian (and Springsteen and Jagger) and it grates on him that nobody else sees it.

Pretty much.  I think he also believes that, had he received the songwriting credits when the BB were in their prime, he may have received a little more respect.  

Seriously doubt that.

Why do you say that? And give a detailed answer instead of the usual schtick.

FYI, I hate rap. With a passion. But, at the same time, I can see and understand why it appeals to the mainstream.  You don't have to like something to understand why others like it.

I won't speak for The LEGENDARY OSD, but I agree with him on this. Mike Love wasn't consistently enough Brian Wilson's lyricist for them to be thought of as a Goffin/King, Taupin/John, Jagger/Richards type pair. It would still be Brian Wilson and his various lyricists, one of whom was Mike Love. And the sort of lyrics Mike Love wrote, regardless of whether one likes them, or their appropriateness for the music or even their skill, aren't the sort that makes one famous as a lyricist. How many lyricists are publicly thought of as 'great lyricists' who weren't either: part of a famous song-writing team; wrote about 'meaningful' subjects; or wrote particularly artistic, interesting lyrics?
So, Beach Boys' fans now know what he wrote and give him the appropriate credit. Non-fans (not meaning people who dislike the Beach Boys particularly but the general non-active fan) wouldn't think one way another. He's no Dylan or Lennon or Baez or Joni Mitchell. Regardless of how any individual appreciates his lyrics, they aren't the type to get publicly fussed over. I mean, the songs are out there, and no one's publicly fussing over the lyrics, other than saying they're the quintessential "girls, surfing, cars" thing. And I think Mike Love is already publicly associated with that.

Very true. If anything, if Mike were credited all along on songs like California Girls, he'd be even MORE of a walking stereotype, known as a guy whose primary, best-known contributions to the band were the cheesy, dated imagery (which is THE very thing which a significant number of music fans are specifically turned off by when it comes to this band).  Personally, I love Cali Girls, every single thing about it, lyrics and Mike's great vocal performance included. I know he wrote The Warmth of the Sun, Let The Wind Blow, and a good number of other songs with sensitive lyrics that don't date the songs, so perhaps he needs to be annoyed that people don't know that stuff. Then he can be annoyed at himself for largely ignoring his own more sensitive material for decades. Again - a Cali Girls credit wouldn't have changed that.

The reasons for the stereotype are far and wide, some understandable and legit, some not...but this song wouldn't have made Mike gain respect. If God Only Knows was written by Mike, and that was some big secret for decades... then yeah, Mike might have a point. As it stands, the guy has done the damage to himself, yet listening to him speak, it's everybody's fault but Mike's.
 

[Cam Mott]

Cam, ol' pal, Brian's firing of Murry was provoked not by any shady business dealings but by a growing desire to keep him from interfering in the studio. Assuming all the accounts are true, it wasn't a reasoned decision. He just snapped.

But pal o' mine, it certainly shows Brian could stand up to his old man and in a much more intense and personal situation than just asking that a form be amended.

[bossaroo]

so none of Brian's other co-writers had a problem getting songwriting credit. it makes you wonder if Mike wasn't such a prick he might have gotten the credit he deserved back then. seems no one can stand the guy, Murry was certainly no exception.

Murry was not on the record with that point of view. Old and interesting RS article.

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/beach-boys-a-california-saga-part-ii-19711111

Hope it copies.  

if anything, this article bolsters my contention that no one can really stand Mike Love. nowhere does Murry defend or say he enjoys Mike's company or likes Mike as a person. Mike comes across as vulgar and stupid among other things: chasing whores in Europe (being led on and ripped off numerous times and even almost getting killed), nearly being fired from the band, incapable of playing an instrument, etc.

thanks for the "cannon fodder"  

 

Gentlemen - My apologies for not being clear as to why I put the link in.  It was to show in the first section, that Murry had some nice things to say about his nephew.  Around paragraph nine.

"When Brian was eight years old, he sang in a concert, singing one of Mike Love's songs."  

A public concert?

"Well my sister, Mike's mother, Mrs. Love, Emily Love - loved music.  She didn't play piano or anything but she loved music and gave this concert in my honor as a songwriter. And they featured several of my songs--she even hired a trio, a musical group, to play my songs for this concert.

This was for an audience?

"Yes, it was for school friends and teachers and friends of hers. And Mike Love wrote a song called "The Old Soldier," about a soldier that died you know in the war?  He was only nine and a half when he wrote it.  I heard it over at my sisters house, and I thought it was just darling, But I heard it as a hymn, it was a song in hymn form...

...So when he was eight years old I bought Brian his first suit with long pants, and he sang both versions of Mike's song at this concert. We taught him both sets of lyrics, Mike's and mine, and he brought the house down."

Sorry I was not clear when I posted the link.  

     

so you posted what is quite probably the most damaging article about Mike Love *EVER* for a single anecdote from Murry about a song Mike wrote at the age of 9? in order to demonstrate that Murry liked and respected Mike and always gave him proper credit? bravo.

     

[Robbie Mac]

Cam, ol' pal, Brian's firing of Murry was provoked not by any shady business dealings but by a growing desire to keep him from interfering in the studio. Assuming all the accounts are true, it wasn't a reasoned decision. He just snapped.

But pal o' mine, it certainly shows Brian could stand up to his old man and in a much more intense and personal situation than just asking that a form be amended.

No, it shows that even the bullied sometimes have tbeir breaking point.

[CenturyDeprived]

Cam, ol' pal, Brian's firing of Murry was provoked not by any shady business dealings but by a growing desire to keep him from interfering in the studio. Assuming all the accounts are true, it wasn't a reasoned decision. He just snapped.

But pal o' mine, it certainly shows Brian could stand up to his old man and in a much more intense and personal situation than just asking that a form be amended.

No, it shows that even the bullied sometimes have their breaking point.

And Cam conveniently had no response to my earlier post directed at him:

I'm waiting for your next line of reasoning in this train of thought to be that Brian was a chickensh*t p*ssy if the thought of standing up to and repeatedly pushing a subject with the man who had repeatedly PHYSICALLY beat the crap out of him was something that may have hindered him.

Where the heck is your empathy?

Yeah, Cam. All Brian would have had to have done was *ask*, and Murry would have fixed it. That action alone would surely have garnered him results. And asking once only would've done it.

[The LEGENDARY OSD]

The more I think about it, the more I believe that Mike's biggest issue is the lack of respect he gets. Let's face it - of all the Beach Boys he is the least respected within the music industry.

When Brian wanted to become more serious he utilized other singers and lyricists.

He has worked his butt off to keep the brand going (whether that is a good thing or a bad thing is another issue) and during C50 the big round of applause goes to Brian.

He needs to tear Brian down in order that enhance his reputation as a part of the Beach Boys legacy.

He needs to tear down peers (RRHOF) in order to build himself up as performer when compared to Jagger or Springsteen.

"Picese Brothers" is to remind everyone of his close friendship with George Harrison.

He inspired "Back In the USSR".

Since " Kokomo" is the largest selling BB single it is their greatest achievement.

Mike believes that he is the equal of Brian (and Springsteen and Jagger) and it grates on him that nobody else sees it.

Pretty much.  I think he also believes that, had he received the songwriting credits when the BB were in their prime, he may have received a little more respect. 

Seriously doubt that.

Why do you say that? And give a detailed answer instead of the usual schtick.

FYI, I hate rap. With a passion. But, at the same time, I can see and understand why it appeals to the mainstream.  You don't have to like something to understand why others like it.

I may or may not answer your question but if and when I decide to, it'll be on my terms, not yours.

[CenturyDeprived]

The more I think about it, the more I believe that Mike's biggest issue is the lack of respect he gets. Let's face it - of all the Beach Boys he is the least respected within the music industry.

When Brian wanted to become more serious he utilized other singers and lyricists.

He has worked his butt off to keep the brand going (whether that is a good thing or a bad thing is another issue) and during C50 the big round of applause goes to Brian.

He needs to tear Brian down in order that enhance his reputation as a part of the Beach Boys legacy.

He needs to tear down peers (RRHOF) in order to build himself up as performer when compared to Jagger or Springsteen.

"Picese Brothers" is to remind everyone of his close friendship with George Harrison.

He inspired "Back In the USSR".

Since " Kokomo" is the largest selling BB single it is their greatest achievement.

Mike believes that he is the equal of Brian (and Springsteen and Jagger) and it grates on him that nobody else sees it.

Pretty much.  I think he also believes that, had he received the songwriting credits when the BB were in their prime, he may have received a little more respect.  

Seriously doubt that.

Why do you say that? And give a detailed answer instead of the usual schtick.

FYI, I hate rap. With a passion. But, at the same time, I can see and understand why it appeals to the mainstream.  You don't have to like something to understand why others like it.

I may or may not answer your question but if and when I decide to, it'll be on my terms, not yours.

No, OSD! Don't go over to the dark side and use a tactic that only the most ridiculous Kokomaoists and Tahoe Bunker gatekeepers use!  

[SMiLE Brian]

OSD-wan is using a Jedi mind trick.

[Cam Mott]

Cam, ol' pal, Brian's firing of Murry was provoked not by any shady business dealings but by a growing desire to keep him from interfering in the studio. Assuming all the accounts are true, it wasn't a reasoned decision. He just snapped.

But pal o' mine, it certainly shows Brian could stand up to his old man and in a much more intense and personal situation than just asking that a form be amended.

No, it shows that even the bullied sometimes have their breaking point.

And Cam conveniently had no response to my earlier post directed at him:

I'm waiting for your next line of reasoning in this train of thought to be that Brian was a chickensh*t p*ssy if the thought of standing up to and repeatedly pushing a subject with the man who had repeatedly PHYSICALLY beat the crap out of him was something that may have hindered him.

Where the heck is your empathy?

Yeah, Cam. All Brian would have had to have done was *ask*, and Murry would have fixed it. That action alone would surely have garnered him results. And asking once only would've done it.

Here's an answer: Your post is insulting and speculative.

[CenturyDeprived]

Cam, ol' pal, Brian's firing of Murry was provoked not by any shady business dealings but by a growing desire to keep him from interfering in the studio. Assuming all the accounts are true, it wasn't a reasoned decision. He just snapped.

But pal o' mine, it certainly shows Brian could stand up to his old man and in a much more intense and personal situation than just asking that a form be amended.

No, it shows that even the bullied sometimes have their breaking point.

And Cam conveniently had no response to my earlier post directed at him:

I'm waiting for your next line of reasoning in this train of thought to be that Brian was a chickensh*t p*ssy if the thought of standing up to and repeatedly pushing a subject with the man who had repeatedly PHYSICALLY beat the crap out of him was something that may have hindered him.

Where the heck is your empathy?

Yeah, Cam. All Brian would have had to have done was *ask*, and Murry would have fixed it. That action alone would surely have garnered him results. And asking once only would've done it.

Here's an answer: Your post is insulting and speculative.

Time for some self-reflection here.

You don't think *you're* being insulting and speculative to insinuate that a guy who was beaten repeatedly as a kid, was somehow "supposed to" stand up to the guy who beat the crap out of him, made him partially deaf, and who he undoubtedly still had lingering PHYSICAL fear by standing up to?  

You think that somehow, because Brian *ever* stood up to Murry when Brian's breaking point hit and the dam burst, to a guy who was making it IMPOSSIBLE for Brian to function and make the one thing he needed to do (make music) in order to stay sane... that means you're so sure he was emotionally in the sort of place to try to convince, force, cajole, coerce, whatever, Murry into doing what Brian said?  You think one isolated example means that Brian automatically, by definition, "had it in him" and was required to stand up for things of your choosing, or else face judgment by you?

I have genuine empathy for Mike feeling screwed over, and have expressed it.  He was.

I ask again: Where exactly is *your* empathy for Brian in this?

[SMiLE Brian]

There is none, Cam is a sock puppet of Mike Love.

[Cam Mott]

Cam, ol' pal, Brian's firing of Murry was provoked not by any shady business dealings but by a growing desire to keep him from interfering in the studio. Assuming all the accounts are true, it wasn't a reasoned decision. He just snapped.

But pal o' mine, it certainly shows Brian could stand up to his old man and in a much more intense and personal situation than just asking that a form be amended.

No, it shows that even the bullied sometimes have their breaking point.

And Cam conveniently had no response to my earlier post directed at him:

I'm waiting for your next line of reasoning in this train of thought to be that Brian was a chickensh*t p*ssy if the thought of standing up to and repeatedly pushing a subject with the man who had repeatedly PHYSICALLY beat the crap out of him was something that may have hindered him.

Where the heck is your empathy?

Yeah, Cam. All Brian would have had to have done was *ask*, and Murry would have fixed it. That action alone would surely have garnered him results. And asking once only would've done it.

Here's an answer: Your post is insulting and speculative.

Time for some self-reflection here.

You don't think *you're* being insulting and speculative to insinuate that a guy who was beaten repeatedly as a kid, was somehow "supposed to" stand up to the guy who beat the crap out of him, made him partially deaf, and who he undoubtedly still had lingering PHYSICAL fear by standing up to?  

You think that somehow, because Brian *ever* stood up to Murry when Brian's breaking point hit and the dam burst, to a guy who was making it IMPOSSIBLE for Brian to function and make the one thing he needed to do (make music) in order to stay sane... that means you're so sure he was emotionally in the sort of place to try to convince, force, cajole, coerce, whatever, Murry into doing what Brian said?  You think one isolated example means that Brian automatically, by definition, "had it in him" and was required to stand up for things of your choosing, or else face judgment by you?

I have genuine empathy for Mike feeling screwed over, and have expressed it.  He was.

I ask again: Where exactly is *your* empathy for Brian in this?

I didn't speculate any such thing, Brian did stand up to his Dad, the rest is your opinion and I'm not accountable for/to your opinion.

[SMiLE Brian]

The Tahoe bunker keeper hath spoken!

[CenturyDeprived]

Cam, ol' pal, Brian's firing of Murry was provoked not by any shady business dealings but by a growing desire to keep him from interfering in the studio. Assuming all the accounts are true, it wasn't a reasoned decision. He just snapped.

But pal o' mine, it certainly shows Brian could stand up to his old man and in a much more intense and personal situation than just asking that a form be amended.

No, it shows that even the bullied sometimes have their breaking point.

And Cam conveniently had no response to my earlier post directed at him:

I'm waiting for your next line of reasoning in this train of thought to be that Brian was a chickensh*t p*ssy if the thought of standing up to and repeatedly pushing a subject with the man who had repeatedly PHYSICALLY beat the crap out of him was something that may have hindered him.

Where the heck is your empathy?

Yeah, Cam. All Brian would have had to have done was *ask*, and Murry would have fixed it. That action alone would surely have garnered him results. And asking once only would've done it.

Here's an answer: Your post is insulting and speculative.

Time for some self-reflection here.

You don't think *you're* being insulting and speculative to insinuate that a guy who was beaten repeatedly as a kid, was somehow "supposed to" stand up to the guy who beat the crap out of him, made him partially deaf, and who he undoubtedly still had lingering PHYSICAL fear by standing up to?  

You think that somehow, because Brian *ever* stood up to Murry when Brian's breaking point hit and the dam burst, to a guy who was making it IMPOSSIBLE for Brian to function and make the one thing he needed to do (make music) in order to stay sane... that means you're so sure he was emotionally in the sort of place to try to convince, force, cajole, coerce, whatever, Murry into doing what Brian said?  You think one isolated example means that Brian automatically, by definition, "had it in him" and was required to stand up for things of your choosing, or else face judgment by you?

I have genuine empathy for Mike feeling screwed over, and have expressed it.  He was.

I ask again: Where exactly is *your* empathy for Brian in this?

I didn't speculate any such thing, Brian did stand up to his Dad, the rest is your opinion and I'm not accountable for/to your opinion.

Brian stood up to his dad in an isolated incident, and?... What does that prove?

I figured you might take a shot at describing what empathy you might have for Brian when it comes to the issue of standing up to his dad, because I honestly would like to know. You haven't stated that I'm wrong by questioning your empathy for Brian regarding standing up to his dad, and I find it truly hard to believe that any Beach Boys fan as big as you wouldn't have any.

[Doo Dah]

There is none, Cam is a sock puppet of Mike Love.

[SMiLE Brian]

Lock the thread, it's the final word!!!!!

[bossaroo]

the "Brian fired Murry" argument doesn't really hold water because by most all accounts, including Mike Love's, it was a group decision or at the very least instigated by Brian and Mike.

[Cam Mott]

Cam, ol' pal, Brian's firing of Murry was provoked not by any shady business dealings but by a growing desire to keep him from interfering in the studio. Assuming all the accounts are true, it wasn't a reasoned decision. He just snapped.

But pal o' mine, it certainly shows Brian could stand up to his old man and in a much more intense and personal situation than just asking that a form be amended.

No, it shows that even the bullied sometimes have their breaking point.

And Cam conveniently had no response to my earlier post directed at him:

I'm waiting for your next line of reasoning in this train of thought to be that Brian was a chickensh*t p*ssy if the thought of standing up to and repeatedly pushing a subject with the man who had repeatedly PHYSICALLY beat the crap out of him was something that may have hindered him.

Where the heck is your empathy?

Yeah, Cam. All Brian would have had to have done was *ask*, and Murry would have fixed it. That action alone would surely have garnered him results. And asking once only would've done it.

Here's an answer: Your post is insulting and speculative.

Time for some self-reflection here.

You don't think *you're* being insulting and speculative to insinuate that a guy who was beaten repeatedly as a kid, was somehow "supposed to" stand up to the guy who beat the crap out of him, made him partially deaf, and who he undoubtedly still had lingering PHYSICAL fear by standing up to?  

You think that somehow, because Brian *ever* stood up to Murry when Brian's breaking point hit and the dam burst, to a guy who was making it IMPOSSIBLE for Brian to function and make the one thing he needed to do (make music) in order to stay sane... that means you're so sure he was emotionally in the sort of place to try to convince, force, cajole, coerce, whatever, Murry into doing what Brian said?  You think one isolated example means that Brian automatically, by definition, "had it in him" and was required to stand up for things of your choosing, or else face judgment by you?

I have genuine empathy for Mike feeling screwed over, and have expressed it.  He was.

I ask again: Where exactly is *your* empathy for Brian in this?

I didn't speculate any such thing, Brian did stand up to his Dad, the rest is your opinion and I'm not accountable for/to your opinion.

Brian stood up to his dad in an isolated incident, and?... What does that prove?

I figured you might take a shot at describing what empathy you might have for Brian when it comes to the issue of standing up to his dad, because I honestly would like to know. You haven't stated that I'm wrong by questioning your empathy for Brian regarding standing up to his dad, and I find it truly hard to believe that any Beach Boys fan as big as you wouldn't have any. I can't conceive that's true.

I'm not your sock puppet (I'm Mike's) dancing to your tune I guess.  

[CenturyDeprived]

Cam, ol' pal, Brian's firing of Murry was provoked not by any shady business dealings but by a growing desire to keep him from interfering in the studio. Assuming all the accounts are true, it wasn't a reasoned decision. He just snapped.

But pal o' mine, it certainly shows Brian could stand up to his old man and in a much more intense and personal situation than just asking that a form be amended.

No, it shows that even the bullied sometimes have their breaking point.

And Cam conveniently had no response to my earlier post directed at him:

I'm waiting for your next line of reasoning in this train of thought to be that Brian was a chickensh*t p*ssy if the thought of standing up to and repeatedly pushing a subject with the man who had repeatedly PHYSICALLY beat the crap out of him was something that may have hindered him.

Where the heck is your empathy?

Yeah, Cam. All Brian would have had to have done was *ask*, and Murry would have fixed it. That action alone would surely have garnered him results. And asking once only would've done it.

Here's an answer: Your post is insulting and speculative.

Time for some self-reflection here.

You don't think *you're* being insulting and speculative to insinuate that a guy who was beaten repeatedly as a kid, was somehow "supposed to" stand up to the guy who beat the crap out of him, made him partially deaf, and who he undoubtedly still had lingering PHYSICAL fear by standing up to?  

You think that somehow, because Brian *ever* stood up to Murry when Brian's breaking point hit and the dam burst, to a guy who was making it IMPOSSIBLE for Brian to function and make the one thing he needed to do (make music) in order to stay sane... that means you're so sure he was emotionally in the sort of place to try to convince, force, cajole, coerce, whatever, Murry into doing what Brian said?  You think one isolated example means that Brian automatically, by definition, "had it in him" and was required to stand up for things of your choosing, or else face judgment by you?

I have genuine empathy for Mike feeling screwed over, and have expressed it.  He was.

I ask again: Where exactly is *your* empathy for Brian in this?

I didn't speculate any such thing, Brian did stand up to his Dad, the rest is your opinion and I'm not accountable for/to your opinion.

Brian stood up to his dad in an isolated incident, and?... What does that prove?

I figured you might take a shot at describing what empathy you might have for Brian when it comes to the issue of standing up to his dad, because I honestly would like to know. You haven't stated that I'm wrong by questioning your empathy for Brian regarding standing up to his dad, and I find it truly hard to believe that any Beach Boys fan as big as you wouldn't have any. I can't conceive that's true.

I'm not your sock puppet (I'm Mike's) dancing to your tune I guess.  

So am I reading this right? No empathy from Cam for Brian being beaten by his dad and finding it excruciating to stand up to a guy who made him physically afraid and ill? It's really *that* hard to admit to an ounce of empathy over that? I'm serious, and not trying to drag this down into sock puppet jokes.

Is it impossible to say you have *any* empathy for Brian about being afraid to stand up to the man who beat the crap out of him?

[Mendota Heights]