Heroes & Villains parts 1 & 2 predictions/thoughts

[buddhahat]

I've been away and there's so many smile threads I can't find if this has been covered or not so apologies if I'm rehashing this.

Track times from the 2 cd set:

2.    Heroes and Villains: Part 1   (3:08)
3.    Heroes and Villains: Part 2   (4:18)

Along with the WH era Surf's Up, Heroes parts 1 & 2 is possibly the thing I'm most curious about as a long Heroes has always been my smile pipe dream.

Can anyone make sense of the track times? Part 1 is not the cantina mix as it's 11 seconds longer (incidentally, does the cantina mix feature on any of these smile releases? I can't find it scouring the tracklistings, but I must be mistaken).

It's obviously not the disc 1 edit as it's significantly shorter, or the classic 45 version.

Does the part 2 track time correlate with anything we know?

Dom Priore made quite a big deal out of Mark and Alan's detective work and how they managed to piece smile together for this new release (can't find the interview that mentions this - does anyone have the link please?). If Mark is largely following the blueprint for BWPS, I am curious what Priore means by this. It looks from the track times that Old Master Painter may have the barnshine fade reinstated so that could be one example of vintage sequencing and 'detective work', but this Heroes parts 1 & 2, one would hope, will be an example of Mark and Alan trying to sequence an as-historically-accurate-as-possible 2 sided Heroes & Villains.

I really hope the structure is informed by some evidence we haven't been privee to. Perhaps info from Brian/VDP/Mike/Al or even based on an acetate from their collections? Even if it's just guess work and conjecture based on session info, it will be cool if they try and give us an alternate long form Heroes. I was really hoping they don't just fall back on familiar mixes (Cantina edit + Heroes Sections) and the track times are looking like this won't be the case.

Anyone have any ideas from their own fan mixes, what they might have done with this?

[hypehat]

I always thought the order of the vocal bits in Heroes Sections was based on the fact the masters were found on the same reel in that order, probably placed so by BW. I think I read that here, from Mark, but I wouldn't know where to look. Am reading the Linett thread (a goldmine, as we well know) and will report back.

[desmondo]

I've been away and there's so many smile threads I can't find if this has been covered or not so apologies if I'm rehashing this.

Track times from the 2 cd set:

2.    Heroes and Villains: Part 1   (3:08)
3.    Heroes and Villains: Part 2   (4:18)

Along with the WH era Surf's Up, Heroes parts 1 & 2 is possibly the thing I'm most curious about as a long Heroes has always been my smile pipe dream.

Can anyone make sense of the track times? Part 1 is not the cantina mix as it's 11 seconds longer (incidentally, does the cantina mix feature on any of these smile releases? I can't find it scouring the tracklistings, but I must be mistaken).

It's obviously not the disc 1 edit as it's significantly shorter, or the classic 45 version.

Does the part 2 track time correlate with anything we know?

Dom Priore made quite a big deal out of Mark and Alan's detective work and how they managed to piece smile together for this new release (can't find the interview that mentions this - does anyone have the link please?). If Mark is largely following the blueprint for BWPS, I am curious what Priore means by this. It looks from the track times that Old Master Painter may have the barnshine fade reinstated so that could be one example of vintage sequencing and 'detective work', but this Heroes parts 1 & 2, one would hope, will be an example of Mark and Alan trying to sequence an as-historically-accurate-as-possible 2 sided Heroes & Villains.

I really hope the structure is informed by some evidence we haven't been privee to. Perhaps info from Brian/VDP/Mike/Al or even based on an acetate from their collections? Even if it's just guess work and conjecture based on session info, it will be cool if they try and give us an alternate long form Heroes. I was really hoping they don't just fall back on familiar mixes (Cantina edit + Heroes Sections) and the track times are looking like this won't be the case.

Anyone have any ideas from their own fan mixes, what they might have done with this?

It would appear - from my calculations -  that we will indeed get the Barnshine fade on the end of OMP/YAMS - the timings work out perfectly with the ML vocal part on top


YEAHH BABY

[SurfRiderHawaii]

I've been away and there's so many smile threads I can't find if this has been covered or not so apologies if I'm rehashing this.

Track times from the 2 cd set:

2.    Heroes and Villains: Part 1   (3:08)
3.    Heroes and Villains: Part 2   (4:18)

Along with the WH era Surf's Up, Heroes parts 1 & 2 is possibly the thing I'm most curious about as a long Heroes has always been my smile pipe dream.

Can anyone make sense of the track times? Part 1 is not the cantina mix as it's 11 seconds longer (incidentally, does the cantina mix feature on any of these smile releases? I can't find it scouring the tracklistings, but I must be mistaken).

It's obviously not the disc 1 edit as it's significantly shorter, or the classic 45 version.

Does the part 2 track time correlate with anything we know?

Dom Priore made quite a big deal out of Mark and Alan's detective work and how they managed to piece smile together for this new release (can't find the interview that mentions this - does anyone have the link please?). If Mark is largely following the blueprint for BWPS, I am curious what Priore means by this. It looks from the track times that Old Master Painter may have the barnshine fade reinstated so that could be one example of vintage sequencing and 'detective work', but this Heroes parts 1 & 2, one would hope, will be an example of Mark and Alan trying to sequence an as-historically-accurate-as-possible 2 sided Heroes & Villains.

I really hope the structure is informed by some evidence we haven't been privee to. Perhaps info from Brian/VDP/Mike/Al or even based on an acetate from their collections? Even if it's just guess work and conjecture based on session info, it will be cool if they try and give us an alternate long form Heroes. I was really hoping they don't just fall back on familiar mixes (Cantina edit + Heroes Sections) and the track times are looking like this won't be the case.

Anyone have any ideas from their own fan mixes, what they might have done with this?

Careful, AGD might jump in your sh*t for using logic to hypothesize/speculate.  No fun allowed on this board!

[hypehat]

I always thought the order of the vocal bits in Heroes Sections was based on the fact the masters were found on the same reel in that order, probably placed so by BW. I think I read that here, from Mark, but I wouldn't know where to look. Am reading the Linett thread (a goldmine, as we well know) and will report back.

Found it. It seems you've been curious about this for a while, buddhahat  

Hi Mr Linett,

Apologies if you've addressed this question many times before. I've had a brief search of the topics but can't find anything.

How did you sequence 'Heroes Sections' on The Good Vibrations Boxset? I know that apart from the ending, it is identical to the mix you did in 88. Did you arrange the parts based on what sounded good together or were there clues in the 66/67 sessions from Brian, as to how he intended these sections to be sequenced? Domenic Priore in his book Look Listen Vibrate Smile suggests that for the large part of 'Sections', the latter is true.

I have heard one boot that has a mix where several sections are sequenced similarly to yours. Another poster suggestes that other boots have futher clues, although some on this board have suggested that the sequence of Heroes Sections was based on a Carl Wilson/Stephen Desper comp tape from 1972, that had nothing to do with Brian. It strikes there is some confusion about this specific track, so any light you could shed on this query would be much appreciated.

Many thanks,

Ben

I just sequenced what sounded good..... I know we changed the end for the box so we didn't use a part of the Smiley version.... Mark

So I guess it's not going to be that order..... Now I'm intrigued!

Mark said in the Billboard interview that a lot of the sequencing is being attempted using clues from Chuck on the tapes - "Heroes & Villains part two, revised version, take one", and all that, and from tape boxes..... So I guess you could attempt the same detective work, with what limited resources we have. Although as mentioned previously, I'm not going to attempt that - I'm on a Smile detox. Much more of this and I'll start posting like Ghost.... 

[desmondo]

Soory can't help with H&V 1&2 but this may help with the rest

1. Our Prayer (1:06) -  probably same as GV box set version

2. Gee (0:51) -  normal with flutter horn?

3. Heroes And Villains (4:53) - we’ve heard

4. Do You Like Worms (Roll Plymouth Rock) (3:36) - 30 secs shorter than UM 16 - maybe this will shorten BR theme

5. I’m In Great Shape (0:29) - who knows but combine HH vocal and the backing track we’ve got then its 0:29ish

6. Barnyard (0:48) - same as acetate version

7. My Only Sunshine (The Old Master Painter / You Are My Sunshine) (1:57) - probably now with ‘Barnshine’ reinstalled as the third part - any musicians able to help - but timings match almost perfectly

8. Cabin Essence (3:32) - MOJO single?

9. Wonderful (2:04) - MOJO single?

10. Look (Song For Children) (2:31) -  same as UM 16 version - maybe vocals??

11. Child Is Father Of The Man (2:14) - who know CIFOTM is a tune that confuses the hell out of me

12. Surf’s Up (4:12) - 30 secs longer than GV Box Set version (SU album version)

13. I Wanna Be Around / Workshop (1:23) - slightly shorter than the UM version but not much

14. Vega-Tables (3:49)   again for me a complete blank 

15. Holidays (2:33)  - timings suggest normal version

16. Wind Chimes (3:06) - slight puzzle as this is longer than most ‘standard versions we know’ - although pretty close to UM 17 first vocal overdub track

17. The Elements: Fire (Mrs. O’Leary’s Cow) (2:35)  - likely to be the UM16 version with the H&V intro on it - whether it will have WW ox as well who knows

18. Love To Say Dada (2:32) -  not far from UM 16 version

19. Good Vibrations (4:13) -  we’ve got this

[buddhahat]

I always thought the order of the vocal bits in Heroes Sections was based on the fact the masters were found on the same reel in that order, probably placed so by BW. I think I read that here, from Mark, but I wouldn't know where to look. Am reading the Linett thread (a goldmine, as we well know) and will report back.

Found it. It seems you've been curious about this for a while, buddhahat  

Hi Mr Linett,

Apologies if you've addressed this question many times before. I've had a brief search of the topics but can't find anything.

How did you sequence 'Heroes Sections' on The Good Vibrations Boxset? I know that apart from the ending, it is identical to the mix you did in 88. Did you arrange the parts based on what sounded good together or were there clues in the 66/67 sessions from Brian, as to how he intended these sections to be sequenced? Domenic Priore in his book Look Listen Vibrate Smile suggests that for the large part of 'Sections', the latter is true.

I have heard one boot that has a mix where several sections are sequenced similarly to yours. Another poster suggestes that other boots have futher clues, although some on this board have suggested that the sequence of Heroes Sections was based on a Carl Wilson/Stephen Desper comp tape from 1972, that had nothing to do with Brian. It strikes there is some confusion about this specific track, so any light you could shed on this query would be much appreciated.

Many thanks,

Ben

I just sequenced what sounded good..... I know we changed the end for the box so we didn't use a part of the Smiley version.... Mark

So I guess it's not going to be that order..... Now I'm intrigued!

Mark said in the Billboard interview that a lot of the sequencing is being attempted using clues from Chuck on the tapes - "Heroes & Villains part two, revised version, take one", and all that, and from tape boxes..... So I guess you could attempt the same detective work, with what limited resources we have. Although as mentioned previously, I'm not going to attempt that - I'm on a Smile detox. Much more of this and I'll start posting like Ghost....  

Ha ha! A Smile fanatic never rests!

The edit I was referring to is on UM vol 17 "How I Love My Girl (Vocal Overdub Take 10)". I presume this is a Brian edit - it's nearly identical to a portion of the GV box Heroes section track, running from Gee up to (but not including) the dum dum dum section. Swedish Frog has been spliced out (although we can hear that in position in another take). So I never understood Mark's response as it would seem that a large part of Heroes Sections is based on a vintage edit, and not just 'what sounds good together'.

And now to my pet theory:

We know Brian freaked about the dark vibe of Fire and wanted to scrap it in favour of a 'candle'. I wonder if a similar thing occurred to Heroes Part 2. I've always suspected that this B Side started life with the Heroes Intro as its intro, then possibly some of the minor key bicycle rider sections afterwards, and it might have had a darker, crazier feel than the A side (maybe the A Side represented the 'Heroes' and was humorous and light, and the B Side was the 'Villains', dark and unhinged. Ying and yang - I know Bill Tobleman is going to dig this theory!)

I think Brian (possibly, in light of his Fire freak out, wanting to ditch Heroes Intro with its obvious similarities to Fire) then reframed it as a much more upbeat b side, by kicking it off with Gee instead of the Intro, and swapping the darker, minor key bike rider riff for happy, major key variations. Admittedly this is largely conjecture but I'm fairly certain that both Heroes Intro and Gee were intros to the B side at different stages. This swap creates a definite mood change and possibly explains Brian's decision to create all those up-beat, major key variations of the bike rider riff.

[ghost]

On the subject of Fire, bad vibes, etc- there are more weird vibes on Fall Breaks than Fire.

Fire crackles along like a bad paranoia setting in. Is it fire engines or cops? Both! Oh god, run. I'm melting, dissolving, who am I? What is all this? Oh god that bass line, dum ba dim ba dum ba dum ba dim ba dum ba.

Fall Breaks is just... after the fire, at the mental institution, Brian plays the organ in the dining area for the other patients. Hey guys, come on, it's the Woody Woodpecker symphony! Everyone crowds around. Sing with me guys - imagine a candle instead of a huge fire -- ahhhh oooouuuuuoooooooohhhhh.

[BiNNS]

14. Vega-Tables (3:49)   again for me a complete blank 


Using the GV box set version, i simply added the slow acapella "I know that you'll feel better" bit right after the Bop bop bop bop do-do-do do-do-do
part. The length of my mix is 3:49. Not saying that is what they've done for TSS, but it's a possibility.

[Chris Brown]

I always thought the order of the vocal bits in Heroes Sections was based on the fact the masters were found on the same reel in that order, probably placed so by BW. I think I read that here, from Mark, but I wouldn't know where to look. Am reading the Linett thread (a goldmine, as we well know) and will report back.

Found it. It seems you've been curious about this for a while, buddhahat  

Hi Mr Linett,

Apologies if you've addressed this question many times before. I've had a brief search of the topics but can't find anything.

How did you sequence 'Heroes Sections' on The Good Vibrations Boxset? I know that apart from the ending, it is identical to the mix you did in 88. Did you arrange the parts based on what sounded good together or were there clues in the 66/67 sessions from Brian, as to how he intended these sections to be sequenced? Domenic Priore in his book Look Listen Vibrate Smile suggests that for the large part of 'Sections', the latter is true.

I have heard one boot that has a mix where several sections are sequenced similarly to yours. Another poster suggestes that other boots have futher clues, although some on this board have suggested that the sequence of Heroes Sections was based on a Carl Wilson/Stephen Desper comp tape from 1972, that had nothing to do with Brian. It strikes there is some confusion about this specific track, so any light you could shed on this query would be much appreciated.

Many thanks,

Ben

I just sequenced what sounded good..... I know we changed the end for the box so we didn't use a part of the Smiley version.... Mark

So I guess it's not going to be that order..... Now I'm intrigued!

Mark said in the Billboard interview that a lot of the sequencing is being attempted using clues from Chuck on the tapes - "Heroes & Villains part two, revised version, take one", and all that, and from tape boxes..... So I guess you could attempt the same detective work, with what limited resources we have. Although as mentioned previously, I'm not going to attempt that - I'm on a Smile detox. Much more of this and I'll start posting like Ghost....  

Ha ha! A Smile fanatic never rests!

The edit I was referring to is on UM vol 17 "How I Love My Girl (Vocal Overdub Take 10)". I presume this is a Brian edit - it's nearly identical to a portion of the GV box Heroes section track, running from Gee up to (but not including) the dum dum dum section. Swedish Frog has been spliced out (although we can hear that in position in another take). So I never understood Mark's response as it would seem that a large part of Heroes Sections is based on a vintage edit, and not just 'what sounds good together'.

And now to my pet theory:

We know Brian freaked about the dark vibe of Fire and wanted to scrap it in favour of a 'candle'. I wonder if a similar thing occurred to Heroes Part 2. I've always suspected that this B Side started life with the Heroes Intro as its intro, then possibly some of the minor key bicycle rider sections afterwards, and it might have had a darker, crazier feel than the A side (maybe the A Side represented the 'Heroes' and was humorous and light, and the B Side was the 'Villains', dark and unhinged. Ying and yang - I know Bill Tobleman is going to dig this theory!)

I think Brian (possibly, in light of his Fire freak out, wanting to ditch Heroes Intro with its obvious similarities to Fire) then reframed it as a much more upbeat b side, by kicking it off with Gee instead of the Intro, and swapping the darker, minor key bike rider riff for happy, major key variations. Admittedly this is largely conjecture but I'm fairly certain that both Heroes Intro and Gee were intros to the B side at different stages. This swap creates a definite mood change and possibly explains Brian's decision to create all those up-beat, major key variations of the bike rider riff.

I think you're definitely on the right track here.  I just listened to that How I Love My Girl track, and if that's a Brian edit (as, like you said, we can presume it was) it would seem that Mark's sequencing wasn't too far off the mark that Brian was aiming for.  I swear I read something once about him taking cues from Brian's instructions to the band on the tapes regarding the sequence though, or something like hypehat said about the reels having markers where splices were intended.  Mark's edit certainly doesn't seem random, in any case, so I'm a bit perplexed by that answer.  Makes me all the more curious to hear what they've done on the box set.

As for Part 1, my guess is that it'll essentially be the Cantina mix with the "woo woo" section inserted, along with another little snippet somewhere.  Hopefully I'm wrong, and they've made a new mix based on an acetate or something, as you said.

[Ron]

Just for giggles, I'd like to also add that it's possible Brian himself still remembers some of it, or more than he's publicly let on.  You never know.  He might have set down with Mark and told him exactly what order it was in.  I doubt it, but it's possible. 

[Bicyclerider]

14. Vega-Tables (3:49)   again for me a complete blank 


Using the GV box set version, i simply added the slow acapella "I know that you'll feel better" bit right after the Bop bop bop bop do-do-do do-do-do
part. The length of my mix is 3:49. Not saying that is what they've done for TSS, but it's a possibility.

I'd say you are correct sir.

[buddhahat]

Bicycle rider, any hopes/ predictions for this two parted heroes edit? I k ow it's a point of interest for you!

[Bicyclerider]

Part 1 is pretty close to the timing of the cantina version - with the "woo woo woo" s added.   Part 2 I expect to be a combination of the " sections" from the UM Brian edit plus prelude to fade and the rerecorded fade with Carl singing.  Just a guess though.

[Jim V.]

Yeah, I'm gonna say Part 1 is probably the "Cantina mix" with something different different from the versions we've heard that makes it longer, possibly something that Brian mentioned to Mark/Alan and therefore made it more accurate.

And Part 2, I'm probably gonna guess is the "sections" thing in whatever order he had on the tape originally or whatever.

I'd LOVE to be wrong though. I really really hope Part 1 is something totally different, but seeing as though we apparently see no mention of the "Alternate Take" as it was labeled on Smiley Smile/Wild Honey two-fer, I'm assuming this is where we'll find "at three score and five". But hopefully there'll be some revelation hidden in this mix that makes it different though, as I said.

[pobbard]

I swear I read something once about him taking cues from Brian's instructions to the band on the tapes regarding the sequence though, or something like hypehat said about the reels having markers where splices were intended.  

I 100% remember reading this too, somewhere, many years ago, in an interview with Linnett, or perhaps on an old Usenet group.

--Phil

[Chris Brown]

Yeah, I'm gonna say Part 1 is probably the "Cantina mix" with something different different from the versions we've heard that makes it longer, possibly something that Brian mentioned to Mark/Alan and therefore made it more accurate.

And Part 2, I'm probably gonna guess is the "sections" thing in whatever order he had on the tape originally or whatever.

I'd LOVE to be wrong though. I really really hope Part 1 is something totally different, but seeing as though we apparently see no mention of the "Alternate Take" as it was labeled on Smiley Smile/Wild Honey two-fer, I'm assuming this is where we'll find "at three score and five". But hopefully there'll be some revelation hidden in this mix that makes it different though, as I said.

That was my thinking as well - given that no other completed version is listed (and there's no way the "Cantina" mix wouldn't be included somewhere), it stands to reason that most, if not all, of it's elements (no pun intended) will appear in the single mix of Part 1.  It makes sense, as that's the only version we know of that Brian completed and almost put out during the Smile sessions proper.

[Jeff]

Sadly, the 4:18 length of Part Two corresponds exactly to Bridge to Indians + Soul Made Beautiful + Gee + repeating Heroes sections (including Swedish frogs) + Cantina fade.  In other words, the final 4:18 of H&V Sections on the box set.

Hopefully that's just a coincidence.

[buddhahat]

Sadly, the 4:18 length of Part Two corresponds exactly to Bridge to Indians + Soul Made Beautiful + Gee + repeating Heroes sections (including Swedish frogs) + Cantina fade.  In other words, the final 4:18 of H&V Sections on the box set.

Hopefully that's just a coincidence.

That would be a shame, especially as soul made beautiful has been put to better use in the disc 1 edit of Heroes. That bridge to indians + soul made beautiful + Gee never sounded right to me - more like a compilation of sections rather than a proper song (which according to Mark is exactly what it was supposed to be so can't fault him for that). Who knows, maybe that's the way it was supposed to be. I'd be surprised if Mark just lifted the bulk of the Heroes Sections track (cantina fade and all) when there is a Heroes Sections track elsewhere on the set. I hope Part 2 kicks off with a proper intro - either Gee, or Heroes Intro.

No problem with side a being the cantina edit, with something added. Am I right in thinking Brian's cantina edit is not represented anywhere on these releases? That would seem to be quite an omission considering it's the only authentic smile era edit of Heroes we have.

[Dunderhead]

My money is on part 2 starting with gee and ending with false barnyard.

[Sam_BFC]

Even if false Barnyard ends up on album at the end of Painter/Sunshine (as predicted).

[Bicyclerider]

Even if false Barnyard ends up on album at the end of Painter/Sunshine (as predicted).

Right, if they use the "original" false Barnyard on Painter/Sunshine, and then the false Barnyard without the Mike sunshine vocals at the end of part 1 (cantina), surely they wouldn't use it again to end part 2 (even though that's what they did with the sections mix) when they could use the rerecord of it with live Carl vocals.

[Jeff]

Maybe the "early version outtake sections" will be part of it.

[Catbirdman]

Just a thought, and it may be an obvious one, but...

Seems to me that these two tracks - "Heroes And Villains Part One" and "Heroes And Villains Part Two" - are audaciously titled. In other words, it would be a bold thing indeed for the producers of this set to decide on this verbiage without the goods to back it up. We know from his contributions to this message board that Alan Boyd is well aware of the Part 1/Part 2 double-sided single debate, and the fascination it holds for us anoraks. Mr. Boyd is, after all, one of us in many ways, and I highly doubt he'd allow the tracklisting to go out as such without delivering just what it says on the tin. Same goes for Mark Linett. These two guys are highly aware, and highly sensitive curators of this material.

My point is this: I'll bet the proverbial donut that the Part 1/Part 2 tracks are the real deal. Either they're vintage mixes or edits, or they're constructions based on irrefutable vintage diocumentation that was uncovered that details how the tracks were to be assembled.

If I'm wrong, and if the tracks are merely glorified fan mixes based on what Linett/Boyd thought sounded good, I'll eat my hat.

[monicker]

This makes my heart flutter. This, too, is what i think. And i really want to believe. But if this is the case, isn't it totally bizarre and incomprehensible that the big box set, the thing aimed at the hardcore fans, would relegate these two monumental tracks/discoveries to a 45 single, and not be included on CD?