New Beach Boys 2012 Remasters!

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

If I were listening to the mix qua music, I go to the mono mix--but nevertheless in that way I would prefer a narrower mix even if stereo.  But again, I don't listen to the stereo remixes for the same reasons that I would listen to the mono mixes.  Totally different outcomes in mind.

why is he no longer watching the board? Much of what I say is less informed and more inquisitive, but there are some people who really know the stuff here. Would it not be an asset to Mark for him to maintain a presence here given that this board is the one with most BB fans?

I think he felt like he was spending more time defending himself than anything else, which gets old.

[Zach95]

In terms of center vocals and wide panned vocals on Today's stereo mix, it's a fairly even combination of both. About half the songs are either way. I have to say, I'm really happy with the Today! mix. There's quite a few nuances I've noticed that I never heard before. The mono mix sounds terrific as well, I'm curious if Mark touched these up a bit as well.  I did a side by side comparison with the old remasters and I think I hear a much sharper, clearer mono mix on say, DYWD. Can anyone else confirm this?

[Andrew G. Doe]

It's unfortunate that Mark Linett(or others in The Beach Boys' organization) don't look at this forum any more. Some of the problems that audiophiles claim to hear(most of which I don't hear) in the stereo remix of "Summer Days...and Summer Nights!" on the Japanese CD may have occurred after the digital masters left Mark Linett's hands, yet there is no way to let him know before EMI releases the discs in other territories. These new CD's represent how this timeless music will be preserved for listeners of the future. That's unfortunate.

why is he no longer watching the board? Much of what I say is less informed and more inquisitive, but there are some people who really know the stuff here. Would it not be an asset to Mark for him to maintain a presence here given that this board is the one with most BB fans?

Just my impression, but I think he might have been a little vexed with being continually informed what a poor engineer he was, how bad his edits and stereo remixes were and that, in general, a fan with a laptop, the SOT tracks and Audacity could do a far better job than he had. I'm all for open debate, free speech and all that sh*t but seriously, can you blame him ? Same kind of mentality - or lack thereof - that drove Steven Gaines away in a few hours. Truly, there are some arrogant f***wits posting here.

[Bicyclerider]

In regards to aeijtzche's opinions about near mono vocals on a stereo remix, I actually really like centered vocals when the instruments are spread wide left and right. When Brian doubled those vocals, didn't he mean for both of the overdubs to go hand and hand with each other, to blend alongside each other to create a fuller vocal sound? When you split these up even the least bit, you get a higher clarity on each vocal track but you take away from Brian's vision and original intent.

additionally, when stereo mixes are summed to mono (which these inevitably will be at some point), the elements in the center will be slightly louder than the elements (especially hard) panned L-R. Since the Beach Boys are known as a vocal band, it makes sense to center the most important elements.

speaking of which, this is also partially why albums like 'Rubber Soul' have no center information ... so that they sum to mono correctly, without phase or balance issues.

Regarding Rubber Soul, George Martin has said why he used such severe R and L separation - it was because most "stereos"  in use at the time used small speakers very close (on either side) of the turntable.  So to appreciate a stereo effect wide separation (like vocals all in one channel, etc.) was necessary.

[DonnyL]

It's unfortunate that Mark Linett(or others in The Beach Boys' organization) don't look at this forum any more. Some of the problems that audiophiles claim to hear(most of which I don't hear) in the stereo remix of "Summer Days...and Summer Nights!" on the Japanese CD may have occurred after the digital masters left Mark Linett's hands, yet there is no way to let him know before EMI releases the discs in other territories. These new CD's represent how this timeless music will be preserved for listeners of the future. That's unfortunate.

why is he no longer watching the board? Much of what I say is less informed and more inquisitive, but there are some people who really know the stuff here. Would it not be an asset to Mark for him to maintain a presence here given that this board is the one with most BB fans?

Mark would be a great asset to the board, but there is likely little benefit for him. No offense to anyone, but I would not post here if I were Mark. The general lack of respect is akin to looking a gift horse in the mouth.

[DonnyL]

Does a doubled lead vocal hard-panned left and right drive anyone else up a f***ing wall when listening with headphones? It's just... erm, very distracting. Not a fan of the technique.

Why do the vocals have to be either hard panned or folded down?  Surely there's some middle-ground?  It's not the 60's...subtle, modern mixes can and should be made.

Much of the tracks from Summer Days Linnet has mixed have stereo vocals with subtle separation.  The songs where the vocals were recorded on 8-track (Salt Lake City, Let Him Run Wild and You're So Good To Me) sound great and full of life in comparison to some of the lifeless, digital reverb-drenched remixes that have been prepared for Today!.  Obviously with seven tracks of vocals you have more to work with, but there's no reason why that subtle mixing approach can't be applied to music that was recorded literally months before.  My two cents.

some of the 3-track master have 1-vocals, 2-vocals, 3-track. in the '60s, they had LEFT-CENTER-RIGHT options, so that's why some of those mixes were done that way. Even today, if you just have the 3-track, there's not a whole lot you can do for anything resembling wide stereo. you could do something like track at 10 o'clock, vocal 1-middle, vocal 2-right and mess with the reverb pan ... but it's gonna sound kind of weird.

[DonnyL]

It's unfortunate that Mark Linett(or others in The Beach Boys' organization) don't look at this forum any more. Some of the problems that audiophiles claim to hear(most of which I don't hear) in the stereo remix of "Summer Days...and Summer Nights!" on the Japanese CD may have occurred after the digital masters left Mark Linett's hands, yet there is no way to let him know before EMI releases the discs in other territories. These new CD's represent how this timeless music will be preserved for listeners of the future. That's unfortunate.

why is he no longer watching the board? Much of what I say is less informed and more inquisitive, but there are some people who really know the stuff here. Would it not be an asset to Mark for him to maintain a presence here given that this board is the one with most BB fans?

Just my impression, but I think he might have been a little vexed with being continually informed what a poor engineer he was, how bad his edits and stereo remixes were and that, in general, a fan with a laptop, the SOT tracks and Audacity could do a far better job than he had. I'm all for open debate, free speech and all that sh*t but seriously, can you blame him ? Same kind of mentality - or lack thereof - that drove Steven Gaines away in a few hours. Truly, there are some arrogant f***wits posting here.

it also seems that a lot of posters don't quite understand the very unique limitations of the material his is working with.

i've never heard a fan remix that sounds anywhere near the level of Mark's remixes. mixing is an art as much as a technical skill ... these mixes need to translate across a variety of systems, not just sound cool on a laptop.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

It's unfortunate that Mark Linett(or others in The Beach Boys' organization) don't look at this forum any more. Some of the problems that audiophiles claim to hear(most of which I don't hear) in the stereo remix of "Summer Days...and Summer Nights!" on the Japanese CD may have occurred after the digital masters left Mark Linett's hands, yet there is no way to let him know before EMI releases the discs in other territories. These new CD's represent how this timeless music will be preserved for listeners of the future. That's unfortunate.

why is he no longer watching the board? Much of what I say is less informed and more inquisitive, but there are some people who really know the stuff here. Would it not be an asset to Mark for him to maintain a presence here given that this board is the one with most BB fans?

Just my impression, but I think he might have been a little vexed with being continually informed what a poor engineer he was, how bad his edits and stereo remixes were and that, in general, a fan with a laptop, the SOT tracks and Audacity could do a far better job than he had. I'm all for open debate, free speech and all that sh*t but seriously, can you blame him ? Same kind of mentality - or lack thereof - that drove Steven Gaines away in a few hours. Truly, there are some arrogant f***wits posting here.

it also seems that a lot of posters don't quite understand the very unique limitations of the material his is working with.

i've never heard a fan remix that sounds anywhere near the level of Mark's remixes. mixing is an art as much as a technical skill ... these mixes need to translate across a variety of systems, not just sound cool on a laptop.

I agree--how many fan mixers would be comfortable baking a 50-year old Beach Boys master, for instance.  You actually have to put this priceless thing in an oven.

[The Shift]

… how many fan mixers would be comfortable baking a 50-year old Beach Boys master, for instance.  You actually have to put this priceless thing in an oven.

Can you bake analogue tapes in a microwave? Or is that just for digital recordings?

[DonnyL]

It's unfortunate that Mark Linett(or others in The Beach Boys' organization) don't look at this forum any more. Some of the problems that audiophiles claim to hear(most of which I don't hear) in the stereo remix of "Summer Days...and Summer Nights!" on the Japanese CD may have occurred after the digital masters left Mark Linett's hands, yet there is no way to let him know before EMI releases the discs in other territories. These new CD's represent how this timeless music will be preserved for listeners of the future. That's unfortunate.

why is he no longer watching the board? Much of what I say is less informed and more inquisitive, but there are some people who really know the stuff here. Would it not be an asset to Mark for him to maintain a presence here given that this board is the one with most BB fans?

Just my impression, but I think he might have been a little vexed with being continually informed what a poor engineer he was, how bad his edits and stereo remixes were and that, in general, a fan with a laptop, the SOT tracks and Audacity could do a far better job than he had. I'm all for open debate, free speech and all that sh*t but seriously, can you blame him ? Same kind of mentality - or lack thereof - that drove Steven Gaines away in a few hours. Truly, there are some arrogant f***wits posting here.

it also seems that a lot of posters don't quite understand the very unique limitations of the material his is working with.

i've never heard a fan remix that sounds anywhere near the level of Mark's remixes. mixing is an art as much as a technical skill ... these mixes need to translate across a variety of systems, not just sound cool on a laptop.

I agree--how many fan mixers would be comfortable baking a 50-year old Beach Boys master, for instance.  You actually have to put this priceless thing in an oven.

totally ... although I must clarify that you don't wanna bake the '60s tapes ... they'll be ruined! tapes from '74-'94 or so most likely need baking ... most manufacturers changed the binder than holds the back-coating to the tape around that time, and this resulted in the 'sticky-shed' that developed over time. the '60s tapes don't have back-coating. but the are QUITE fragile ... the most vulnerable spots would be where the splices were made. the oxide itself can come COMPLETELY off ... it can become completely transparent in spots; you will literally see-through it like adhesive tape! And you MUST re-splice all of the splices with fresh tape ... I'd like to see some of these fan-mixers handle that! (or rather, I certainly would not like to see that ...)

[DonnyL]

… how many fan mixers would be comfortable baking a 50-year old Beach Boys master, for instance.  You actually have to put this priceless thing in an oven.

Can you bake analogue tapes in a microwave? Or is that just for digital recordings?

hA!  a microwave won't work, but the best 'oven' for baking is actually a product called the 'snack-master' ... i think it's designed for dehydrating food or making jerky or something!

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Right--more like slightly-less-then-40-year-old tape.  I remember Steve Desper commenting on how the inferior tape started coming out in the early 70s.  Wasn't there some sort of whale-blubber involved or something?

[DonnyL]

Right--more like slightly-less-then-40-year-old tape.  I remember Steve Desper commenting on how the inferior tape started coming out in the early 70s.  Wasn't there some sort of whale-blubber involved or something?

yeh, they stopped using whale oil for the binder and switched to a synthetic version around the same time due to environmental/animal rights pressures I think. but I'm not convinced that's the main reason., although it may factor. Scotch 206, for instance, doesn't generally exhibit sticky-shed even though it used the synthetic binder from the mid-'70s or so on.

in my experience, '50s & '60s tapes like Scotch 111 and Scotch 202 sound better than any of the tapes that followed. A good reel of Scotch 111 (introduced in 1949 and discontinued around 1973) will generally still sound as good as the day it was recorded, although some have become brittle and can break without careful handling and a gentle tape transport, and most examples suffer at least a little from another type of degradation called 'vinegar syndrome', which is actually an infection that can spread across collections of acetate tapes ... although it moves very slowly and doesn't seem to affect the audio (in the early stages at least). The NY master dub of 'Pet Sounds' is on Scotch 111.

[monicker]

totally ... although I must clarify that you don't wanna bake the '60s tapes ... they'll be ruined! tapes from '74-'94 or so most likely need baking ... most manufacturers changed the binder than holds the back-coating to the tape around that time, and this resulted in the 'sticky-shed' that developed over time. the '60s tapes don't have back-coating. but the are QUITE fragile ... the most vulnerable spots would be where the splices were made. the oxide itself can come COMPLETELY off ... it can become completely transparent in spots; you will literally see-through it like adhesive tape! And you MUST re-splice all of the splices with fresh tape ... I'd like to see some of these fan-mixers handle that! (or rather, I certainly would not like to see that ...)

This is a stretch. Do you recall anyone commenting on how Mark handled the tape or threaded it up on the machine or how he taped the splices or how he went about baking the tape? Of course not. None of the criticism had anything remotely to do with that aspect of his work, so why raise that point? It was always about things that come down to having “the ear.” His role and dedication, i think, are valued around here, i don’t see how it can’t be. What was called into question though were some of the results of his (yes, hard) work. Any of us posting here who don’t acknowledge that the methods involved in recording an album back then involved unique limitations would have to be incredibly clueless. But it is precisely because of these limitations that some of those things being criticized seemed so puzzling. With the Smile music (given not only the minimal amount of tracks used [as it has been suggested, there’s not THAT much that can be done when mixing tapes with 3, 4, or at most, 8 tracks] but also the fact that Brian’s arrangements at this time were a lot more minimal than before) it was almost all about the edits. As Phil Spector would say, it's an edit record!  And that’s something that (obviously these days) falls entirely within the digital realm. I said this before back then and i’ll say it again: editing is editing. If you recall, Alan Boyd stated in the Icon Fetch interview that he edited Vegetables on Final Cut Pro. Anyone who has worked with audio on FCP will most likely tell you that it is a pain in the ass for audio work in comparison to more facile DAWs. However, that just has to do with time efficiency/workflow/convenciences, not the actual quality of the editing. Editing is listening, that's it. I’m only speaking for myself here, as i can’t speak for the others who voiced their criticisms, but what baffled me the most was the fact that two people (possibly more?) missed some glaring things, on a project of such great importance no less. I just think more care should have gone into it. As many people have stated, no one is above criticism. Especially if your work is up for public consumption. Now, how people go about criticizing and the general tone they take is another thing entirely. But where are Beach Boys fanatics going to discuss these things, at the vintage car forum? With the stranger behind you in line at the movie theater?   

[monicker]

P.S.  I feel like Mike Love saying "the Smile music."

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

The stuff about handling the tape is primarily in response to people who were saying that fan-mixers could do a better job.  You're right about editing of course, but who is going to get that stuff digitized so these fans can have at it?  Turning the tapes over to a fan and having them put together a remix project from scratch is probably not going to work out.  It's hyperbole to combat hyperbole.

[DonnyL]

totally ... although I must clarify that you don't wanna bake the '60s tapes ... they'll be ruined! tapes from '74-'94 or so most likely need baking ... most manufacturers changed the binder than holds the back-coating to the tape around that time, and this resulted in the 'sticky-shed' that developed over time. the '60s tapes don't have back-coating. but the are QUITE fragile ... the most vulnerable spots would be where the splices were made. the oxide itself can come COMPLETELY off ... it can become completely transparent in spots; you will literally see-through it like adhesive tape! And you MUST re-splice all of the splices with fresh tape ... I'd like to see some of these fan-mixers handle that! (or rather, I certainly would not like to see that ...)

This is a stretch. Do you recall anyone commenting on how Mark handled the tape or threaded it up on the machine or how he taped the splices or how he went about baking the tape? Of course not. None of the criticism had anything remotely to do with that aspect of his work, so why raise that point? It was always about things that come down to having “the ear.” His role and dedication, i think, are valued around here, i don’t see how it can’t be. What was called into question though were some of the results of his (yes, hard) work. Any of us posting here who don’t acknowledge that the methods involved in recording an album back then involved unique limitations would have to be incredibly clueless. But it is precisely because of these limitations that some of those things being criticized seemed so puzzling. With the Smile music (given not only the minimal amount of tracks used [as it has been suggested, there’s not THAT much that can be done when mixing tapes with 3, 4, or at most, 8 tracks] but also the fact that Brian’s arrangements at this time were a lot more minimal than before) it was almost all about the edits. As Phil Spector would say, it's an edit record!   And that’s something that (obviously these days) falls entirely within the digital realm. I said this before back then and i’ll say it again: editing is editing. If you recall, Alan Boyd stated in the Icon Fetch interview that he edited Vegetables on Final Cut Pro. Anyone who has worked with audio on FCP will most likely tell you that it is a pain in the ass for audio work in comparison to more facile DAWs. However, that just has to do with time efficiency/workflow/convenciences, not the actual quality of the editing. Editing is listening, that's it. I’m only speaking for myself here, as i can’t speak for the others who voiced their criticisms, but what baffled me the most was the fact that two people (possibly more?) missed some glaring things, on a project of such great importance no less. I just think more care should have gone into it. As many people have stated, no one is above criticism. Especially if your work is up for public consumption. Now, how people go about criticizing and the general tone they take is another thing entirely. But where are Beach Boys fanatics going to discuss these things, at the vintage car forum? With the stranger behind you in line at the movie theater?  

valid points, however I feel you may be taking issue with one line I wrote out of context.

of course beauty is in the ear of the beholder, engineering is as much about listening as anything else, etc. ... but my basic point is that there is a lot more to engineering (in my opinion!) and preparing new mixes of the Beach Boys catalog than simply taking parts that are presented on bootlegs, etc., lining them up in a computer and messing around with EQ and compression until they sound good on your iphone. not a jab at fan mixers really, but I think perhaps the underlying tone behind some people's criticism is the 'i could do it better' kind of thing, when in reality, they have no idea what type of obstacles Mark and crew may have been dealing with.

and no, I don't recall anyone mentioning anything about how Mark handled the splices ... because they were not aware of these problems, which was my basic point.

[monicker]

Maybe i’m wrong about this, but i really don’t recall anyone suggesting that some fan sitting in his or her bedroom with absolutely no experience in analog tape, should be handling the BB tape vault and working the tape machine to digitize the tapes and prep everything for editing and mixing. I mean, YIKES.   

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Below is the post that sort of got me going.  This person says that Mark's mixes are bad and somebody else should have access to the tapes.

everyone says these mixes are bad. I know Mark Linnet is one of the few allowed access to the tapes, but c'mon it seems like some dedicated fans could do a better job. Why not let them rather than bugger everything up?

...but does that necessary mean we should be happy with a mediocre product when someone else could do a perhaps even significantly better job? I'd hand the job to the guy who did Smile AD. He's got his hands on the ball.

[PhilCohen]

I don't think that Mark Linett's skill in the physical handling of vintage analogue tapes were ever really an issue. Nor were his digital to analogue transfer skills an issue either. It is his "creative" decisions during mixdown which are (to varying extents) the issue for many people on this forum. and his E.Q. decisions during mastering(if he is actually involved at the mastering stage) that are also an issue for some forum members.

All of this talk about baking sticky tapes and the physical handling of the tapes is making this discussion go off track.

I doubt that Mark himself does the tape baking(where needed). I'm an ex-CD box set compiler, and during one of my projects, a tape had to be baked, and neither I nor my analogue to digital transfer engineer actually did the baking. The tape was sent to an outside company(AMPEX or their successors, who were still in business back in 1992)

[SMiLE Brian]

armchair mixers are annoying, Mark is great engineer who adds great depth to Brian's productions.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

I doubt that Mark himself does the tape baking(where needed).

He does, actually!

[seltaeb1012002]

 Well, as the "fan mixer" that was referred to (I do produce & engineer professionally, btw.. the Beach Boys stuff I do is for fun, altho I'd love to have a go at the actual digitally transferred masters! who wouldn't?), of course I wouldn't want to touch the actual reel to reel tapes, being that I have absolutely no experience dealing with reel to reels, as much as I love the sound and try to emulate it digitally.

 But, hypothetically speaking, I possibly could've saved a few errors from making it to disc if I had been consulted, as could a lot of other people here apparently. Such as the distortion on a lot of tracks, and what sounds like overdone de-essing on a lot of the vocal tracks on Summer Days & Today. Stuff like the off timed edits on Little Pad (which very well may have been an artistic decision on Mark's part, and doesn't bother me at all now. think White Album mono/stereo).

 It's whatever though, 99.9% of Mark's mixes are awesome and what's done is done. I'm currently digging the stereo Smiley, big time. And the problems in the discs could easily be attributed to mastering. I recently witnessed a friend of mine spend $30K to record his album in an all analog studio, only to have the sound completely ruined in the mastering process. So this stuff happens.

[PhilCohen]

I doubt that Mark himself does the tape baking(where needed).

He does, actually!

Actually back in the 1990's(when I was a compiler) the blank tape manufacturers who manufactured the defective tape conceded that they were to blame for the sticky tape situation, and they offered the baking services for free.

[DonnyL]

I doubt that Mark himself does the tape baking(where needed).

He does, actually!

Actually back in the 1990's(when I was a compiler) the blank tape manufacturers who manufactured the defective tape conceded that they were to blame for the sticky tape situation, and they offered the baking services for free.

but why ship it out when you can do it yourself? shipping delicate vintage Beach Boys masters in not the best idea.