Was Dennis in the Wrong Group?

[Please delete my account]

He was in the right group for sure. But I wish he'd managed to get his solo career off the ground sooner.

[retrokid67]

He was in the right group for sure. But I wish he'd managed to get his solo career off the ground sooner.

Me too.  I'd say that the Wilson brothers should've broke away from the group in the late 60s early 70s.  They would've been FANTASTIC!  Denny sure learned a lot from Brian (Carl too), I wish they would've collaborated more.  If only their lives had been stable at the time I bet it would've worked out great.

[Dancing Bear]

What was the Beach Boy who got more songwriting credits between 68 and 73?

Brian.

In second... DENNIS WILSON.

The guy had worse problems than not being loved enough by other BBs. Bambu was kind of 80% done, a label ready to release it and he couldn't get it together. That's more sabotage (self-inflicted) than anything the Beach Boys have ever done to him.

[Mr. Cohen]

POB only sold decently, and I don't think Bambu was better or more commercial than that. I think Dennis figured there was no point in releasing it. He gave "Love Surrounds Me" to the BBs and nothing happened with it. The moment wasn't right for his music. I actually think he could've done better had he got some of the POB stuff out sooner.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I think he absolutely was in the right group up until 15 Big Ones or just before. At that point, they were doing nothing but holding him back. Yes, it was mostly him and not they who prevented Bambu from being completed. But he really didn't get the support from them he needed. I suspect his father's abuse left a void in him, and probably meant he needed all the support he could get. I can't imagine how much it would have hurt me if I had a River Song in me and saw my contributions pushed aside for the absolute dreck that is 15BO. What a slap in the face. Dennis needed to grow, personally and professionally. And the Beach Boys were a regressive force from '76 on.

Off-topic, but someone on the thread mentioned how Brian needed the other Boys too. I say no way. From '61 to '65 perhaps. But with Pet Sounds he proved that he could make a brilliant album all on his own. He had the name recognition, respect, and professional ties to hire other musicians/vocalists to convey his vision if he so desired. Like with Dennis, I think the band held him back, but in his case I'd say from 1967 on.

Combining these two thoughts, I have to say shame on Brian for never listening to POB. That's your brother, and it's not like it takes a lot of time or effort to listen to a stinking album. I'm sure his praise would have meant the world to Dennis. He was most supportive of Brian, especially in SMiLE when the others weren't and he needed the encouragement most.

[runnersdialzero]

Me too.  I'd say that the Wilson brothers should've broke away from the group in the late 60s early 70s.  They would've been FANTASTIC!

I remember feeling this way in the beginning of my fandom. Nowadays, I'm very glad it didn't happen like this. Granted I'd have done some things differently, but still.

[drbeachboy]

I think he absolutely was in the right group up until 15 Big Ones or just before. At that point, they were doing nothing but holding him back. Yes, it was mostly him and not they who prevented Bambu from being completed. But he really didn't get the support from them he needed. I suspect his father's abuse left a void in him, and probably meant he needed all the support he could get. I can't imagine how much it would have hurt me if I had a River Song in me and saw my contributions pushed aside for the absolute dreck that is 15BO. What a slap in the face. Dennis needed to grow, personally and professionally. And the Beach Boys were a regressive force from '76 on.

Off-topic, but someone on the thread mentioned how Brian needed the other Boys too. I say no way. From '61 to '65 perhaps. But with Pet Sounds he proved that he could make a brilliant album all on his own. He had the name recognition, respect, and professional ties to hire other musicians/vocalists to convey his vision if he so desired. Like with Dennis, I think the band held him back, but in his case I'd say from 1967 on.

Combining these two thoughts, I have to say shame on Brian for never listening to POB. That's your brother, and it's not like it takes a lot of time or effort to listen to a stinking album. I'm sure his praise would have meant the world to Dennis. He was most supportive of Brian, especially in SMiLE when the others weren't and he needed the encouragement most.

Please tell me what Brian did differently with Pet Sounds than any album prior? Was it producing? Was it writing the songs? Was it using a different lyricist like he did with with Usher and Christian? Was it the personal feelings like In My Room or Don't Worry Baby or Please Let Me Wonder or Kiss Me Baby? I don't see how Pet Sounds is any less a Beach Boys album than anything that came before it.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I think he absolutely was in the right group up until 15 Big Ones or just before. At that point, they were doing nothing but holding him back. Yes, it was mostly him and not they who prevented Bambu from being completed. But he really didn't get the support from them he needed. I suspect his father's abuse left a void in him, and probably meant he needed all the support he could get. I can't imagine how much it would have hurt me if I had a River Song in me and saw my contributions pushed aside for the absolute dreck that is 15BO. What a slap in the face. Dennis needed to grow, personally and professionally. And the Beach Boys were a regressive force from '76 on.

Off-topic, but someone on the thread mentioned how Brian needed the other Boys too. I say no way. From '61 to '65 perhaps. But with Pet Sounds he proved that he could make a brilliant album all on his own. He had the name recognition, respect, and professional ties to hire other musicians/vocalists to convey his vision if he so desired. Like with Dennis, I think the band held him back, but in his case I'd say from 1967 on.

Combining these two thoughts, I have to say shame on Brian for never listening to POB. That's your brother, and it's not like it takes a lot of time or effort to listen to a stinking album. I'm sure his praise would have meant the world to Dennis. He was most supportive of Brian, especially in SMiLE when the others weren't and he needed the encouragement most.

Please tell me what Brian did differently with Pet Sounds than any album prior? Was it producing? Was it writing the songs? Was it using a different lyricist like he did with with Usher and Christian? Was it the personal feelings like In My Room or Don't Worry Baby or Please Let Me Wonder or Kiss Me Baby? I don't see how Pet Sounds is any less a Beach Boys album than anything that came before it.

If anything, you're only further proving my point.

I just meant, he could do ALL that, all on one album with not only no noticeable dip in quality but actually a significant increase.

[drbeachboy]

I think he absolutely was in the right group up until 15 Big Ones or just before. At that point, they were doing nothing but holding him back. Yes, it was mostly him and not they who prevented Bambu from being completed. But he really didn't get the support from them he needed. I suspect his father's abuse left a void in him, and probably meant he needed all the support he could get. I can't imagine how much it would have hurt me if I had a River Song in me and saw my contributions pushed aside for the absolute dreck that is 15BO. What a slap in the face. Dennis needed to grow, personally and professionally. And the Beach Boys were a regressive force from '76 on.

Off-topic, but someone on the thread mentioned how Brian needed the other Boys too. I say no way. From '61 to '65 perhaps. But with Pet Sounds he proved that he could make a brilliant album all on his own. He had the name recognition, respect, and professional ties to hire other musicians/vocalists to convey his vision if he so desired. Like with Dennis, I think the band held him back, but in his case I'd say from 1967 on.

Combining these two thoughts, I have to say shame on Brian for never listening to POB. That's your brother, and it's not like it takes a lot of time or effort to listen to a stinking album. I'm sure his praise would have meant the world to Dennis. He was most supportive of Brian, especially in SMiLE when the others weren't and he needed the encouragement most.

Please tell me what Brian did differently with Pet Sounds than any album prior? Was it producing? Was it writing the songs? Was it using a different lyricist like he did with with Usher and Christian? Was it the personal feelings like In My Room or Don't Worry Baby or Please Let Me Wonder or Kiss Me Baby? I don't see how Pet Sounds is any less a Beach Boys album than anything that came before it.

If anything, you're only further proving my point.

I just meant, he could do ALL that, all on one album with not only no noticeable dip in quality but actually a significant increase.

I know, the rest are nothing. The vocal blend means nothing at all. The others are all untalented hacks, huh? Even Brian knew better than that. Brian knowing how to use those voices proves my point. They are all Beach Boys albums, because those voices make all of those songs better.

[runnersdialzero]

I know, the rest are nothing. The vocal blend means nothing at all. The others are all untalented hacks, huh? Even Brian knew better than that. Brian knowing how to use those voices proves my point. They are all Beach Boys albums, because those voices make all of those songs better.

Either be one of the most unbelievably brilliant musicians of all time or piss off.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I think he absolutely was in the right group up until 15 Big Ones or just before. At that point, they were doing nothing but holding him back. Yes, it was mostly him and not they who prevented Bambu from being completed. But he really didn't get the support from them he needed. I suspect his father's abuse left a void in him, and probably meant he needed all the support he could get. I can't imagine how much it would have hurt me if I had a River Song in me and saw my contributions pushed aside for the absolute dreck that is 15BO. What a slap in the face. Dennis needed to grow, personally and professionally. And the Beach Boys were a regressive force from '76 on.

Off-topic, but someone on the thread mentioned how Brian needed the other Boys too. I say no way. From '61 to '65 perhaps. But with Pet Sounds he proved that he could make a brilliant album all on his own. He had the name recognition, respect, and professional ties to hire other musicians/vocalists to convey his vision if he so desired. Like with Dennis, I think the band held him back, but in his case I'd say from 1967 on.

Combining these two thoughts, I have to say shame on Brian for never listening to POB. That's your brother, and it's not like it takes a lot of time or effort to listen to a stinking album. I'm sure his praise would have meant the world to Dennis. He was most supportive of Brian, especially in SMiLE when the others weren't and he needed the encouragement most.

Please tell me what Brian did differently with Pet Sounds than any album prior? Was it producing? Was it writing the songs? Was it using a different lyricist like he did with with Usher and Christian? Was it the personal feelings like In My Room or Don't Worry Baby or Please Let Me Wonder or Kiss Me Baby? I don't see how Pet Sounds is any less a Beach Boys album than anything that came before it.

If anything, you're only further proving my point.

I just meant, he could do ALL that, all on one album with not only no noticeable dip in quality but actually a significant increase.

I know, the rest are nothing. The vocal blend means nothing at all. The others are all untalented hacks, huh? Even Brian knew better than that. Brian knowing how to use those voices proves my point. They are all Beach Boys albums, because those voices make all of those songs better.

Ok, you wanna stop putting words in my mouth? It's already full of ice cream and oatmeal.

Seriously, I never said that or anything like that. Just that Brian could have made it on his own by at least '66 or '67 if he had wanted to. You provided some evidence that he was doing some of what it takes to be a solo artist/producer of other acts even before those years.

Do I really have to put a disclaimer on everything I say so that people don't swoop in and assume the worst-case or most dramatic interpretation of what I said? Like, calm down.

Anyway, this whole tangent is irrelevant to the thread. I was just addressing the point because someone brought it up, but I really don't want to derail the conversation.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I know, the rest are nothing. The vocal blend means nothing at all. The others are all untalented hacks, huh? Even Brian knew better than that. Brian knowing how to use those voices proves my point. They are all Beach Boys albums, because those voices make all of those songs better.

Either be one of the most unbelievably brilliant musicians of all time or piss off.

Again, not what I said at all. But yeah, if you're unbelievably brilliant and writing/producing pretty much everything, I'd say the other guys just singing harmonies and playing their instruments (oh wait...on the studio albums, that was mostly the Wrecking Crew, wasnt it?) need you more than you need them. Not that they arent very talented too, of course.

Ok, that's it for the Brian tangent from me. Dennis. How about you guys try to address the bigger part of my post that was actually on-topic?

[Lonely Summer]

I think he absolutely was in the right group up until 15 Big Ones or just before. At that point, they were doing nothing but holding him back. Yes, it was mostly him and not they who prevented Bambu from being completed. But he really didn't get the support from them he needed. I suspect his father's abuse left a void in him, and probably meant he needed all the support he could get. I can't imagine how much it would have hurt me if I had a River Song in me and saw my contributions pushed aside for the absolute dreck that is 15BO. What a slap in the face. Dennis needed to grow, personally and professionally. And the Beach Boys were a regressive force from '76 on.

Off-topic, but someone on the thread mentioned how Brian needed the other Boys too. I say no way. From '61 to '65 perhaps. But with Pet Sounds he proved that he could make a brilliant album all on his own. He had the name recognition, respect, and professional ties to hire other musicians/vocalists to convey his vision if he so desired. Like with Dennis, I think the band held him back, but in his case I'd say from 1967 on.

Combining these two thoughts, I have to say shame on Brian for never listening to POB. That's your brother, and it's not like it takes a lot of time or effort to listen to a stinking album. I'm sure his praise would have meant the world to Dennis. He was most supportive of Brian, especially in SMiLE when the others weren't and he needed the encouragement most.

Please tell me what Brian did differently with Pet Sounds than any album prior? Was it producing? Was it writing the songs? Was it using a different lyricist like he did with with Usher and Christian? Was it the personal feelings like In My Room or Don't Worry Baby or Please Let Me Wonder or Kiss Me Baby? I don't see how Pet Sounds is any less a Beach Boys album than anything that came before it.

If anything, you're only further proving my point.

I just meant, he could do ALL that, all on one album with not only no noticeable dip in quality but actually a significant increase.

I know, the rest are nothing. The vocal blend means nothing at all. The others are all untalented hacks, huh? Even Brian knew better than that. Brian knowing how to use those voices proves my point. They are all Beach Boys albums, because those voices make all of those songs better.

Well, I used to read - maybe in the Leaf book - that many times Brian was unhappy with the group's vocals, and would go in later and do all the vocals himself. Yep, Brian didn't need those ungrateful, greedy hacks messing up his music!

[retrokid67]

I understand where Mujan is coming from.  Of course, if Brian wanted to he could've done all of the vocals himself.  But of course, it wouldn't have been the same.  If the rest of the guys didn't provide vocals, then that would've been a Brian Wilson solo album (yet I've seen it stated many times that Pet Sounds was a Brian Wilson solo album featuring the BB).  Brian had and extraordinary gift that was recognized right away by him and everyone else, and I read in one of the books that the he/or the company was promoting him as a genius--and it got to the point where people thought the rest of the guys were his "puppets".  Dennis had to develop his gift (and earn the respect he got through those songs--and it wasn't until recent years where people finally realized that his talent was bigger than "O yea, he's the guy who wrote 'Forever'").  He on the other hand had a low self-esteem and having that would cause him to say "He's everything, we're nothing.  We're just his f*cking messengers." Man, I hate that quote because it's not entirely true, yet people take it so literally.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I understand where Mujan is coming from.  Of course, if Brian wanted to he could've done all of the vocals himself.  But of course, it wouldn't have been the same.  If the rest of the guys didn't provide vocals, then that would've been a Brian Wilson solo album (yet I've seen it stated many times that Pet Sounds was a Brian Wilson solo album featuring the BB).  Brian had and extraordinary gift that was recognized right away by him and everyone else, and I read in one of the books that the he/or the company was promoting him as a genius--and it got to the point where people thought the rest of the guys were his "puppets".  Dennis had to develop his gift (and earn the respect he got through those songs--and it wasn't until recent years where people finally realized that his talent was bigger than "O yea, he's the guy who wrote 'Forever'").  He on the other hand had a low self-esteem and having that would cause him to say "He's everything, we're nothing.  We're just his f*cking messengers." Man, I hate that quote because it's not entirely true.

Thank you. And for what it's worth, I feel the same way about Pet Sounds. SMiLE too.

I don't think it was so much low self esteem as much as hedonism, lack of motivation and rampant alcoholism/drug abuse which held Dennis back. Of course, when you're in a bad place like that, the support of those around you can make all the difference in the world. If someone he respected *cough*likeBrian*cough*had said "Hey Denny, I really liked POB. We really f***ed up not using more of your songs on the albums before. When's Bambu coming out, d'you think?" it probably wouldve been just the motivation he needed.

[retrokid67]

I understand where Mujan is coming from.  Of course, if Brian wanted to he could've done all of the vocals himself.  But of course, it wouldn't have been the same.  If the rest of the guys didn't provide vocals, then that would've been a Brian Wilson solo album (yet I've seen it stated many times that Pet Sounds was a Brian Wilson solo album featuring the BB).  Brian had and extraordinary gift that was recognized right away by him and everyone else, and I read in one of the books that the he/or the company was promoting him as a genius--and it got to the point where people thought the rest of the guys were his "puppets".  Dennis had to develop his gift (and earn the respect he got through those songs--and it wasn't until recent years where people finally realized that his talent was bigger than "O yea, he's the guy who wrote 'Forever'").  He on the other hand had a low self-esteem and having that would cause him to say "He's everything, we're nothing.  We're just his f*cking messengers." Man, I hate that quote because it's not entirely true.

Thank you. And for what it's worth, I feel the same way about Pet Sounds. SMiLE too.

I don't think it was so much low self esteem as much as hedonism, lack of motivation and rampant alcoholism/drug abuse which held Dennis back. Of course, when you're in a bad place like that, the support of those around you can make all the difference in the world. If someone he respected *cough*likeBrian*cough*had said "Hey Denny, I really liked POB. We really f***ed up not using more of your songs on the albums before. When's Bambu coming out, d'you think?" it probably wouldve been just the motivation he needed.

I agree.  Dennis had nothing but good things to say about his brother and Brian always got the support he needed from the rest of the guys (well idk about Mike).  I think though that in a lot of ways they were both very sensitive, Denny just didn't show it on the surface like Brian did.

[TonyW]

I'm not advocating Dennis presence in the Beach Boys to be questioned but I have often wondered (fantasized) what could have happened post POB and the Last Waltz is Dennis had joined forces with The Band's Rick Danko and perhaps put a band together with Ricky, Blondie and some hot guitarist - so creative and so combustible on so many levels. Pure fantasy ...

[Andrew G. Doe]

Well, I used to read - maybe in the Leaf book - that many times Brian was unhappy with the group's vocals, and would go in later and do all the vocals himself. Yep, Brian didn't need those ungrateful, greedy hacks messing up his music!

I recall reading in the same book that Brian went through agonies over having to tell Dennis that his drumming on "LDC" had been replaced by Hal.

Just because it's printed in a book doesn't make it accurate, or even true.

[The 4th Wilson Bro.]

I've never held myself up as an authority on the Beach Boys; I've just worshiped the band most of my life and read everything about the BBs I could get my hands on.  But it's been my opinion that Brian was absolutely the least supportive, most dismissive of Dennis' musical abilities of any of the Beach Boys (outside of Mike Love, maybe).

[runnersdialzero]

I've never held myself up as an authority on the Beach Boys; I've just worshiped the band most of my life and read everything about the BBs I could get my hands on.  But it's been my opinion that Brian was absolutely the least supportive, most dismissive of Dennis' musical abilities of any of the Beach Boys (outside of Mike Love, maybe).

Jeez. I wouldn't go THAT far (as to say Brian was "most dismissive"). Also, damn, Mike co-wrote a few Dennis solo songs, songs that were seemingly never meant for Beach Boys records, thus no personal gain for Mike outside of a few literal pennies in royalties. Doesn't that mean anything to you guys?

[bluesno1fann]

Should also mention that at one point or another every member of The Beach Boys (With the exception of Blondie and Ricky, who were at the right place at the right time) was in the wrong group.

[retrokid67]

Should also mention that at one point or another every member of The Beach Boys (With the exception of Blondie and Ricky, who were at the right place at the right time) was in the wrong group.

You think Mike was in the wrong group?  Al for sure, he could've had his own folk band.

[runnersdialzero]

Should also mention that at one point or another every member of The Beach Boys (With the exception of Blondie and Ricky, who were at the right place at the right time) was in the wrong group.

You think Mike was in the wrong group?  Al for sure, he could've had his own folk band.

*sigh*

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Should also mention that at one point or another every member of The Beach Boys (With the exception of Blondie and Ricky, who were at the right place at the right time) was in the wrong group.

What group would Al be in otherwise? No offense to him personally, but it's not like he had the songwriting chops or household name brand of the Wilson's. Mike is largely talentless and lives off the brand name; no way hed ever want to be anything but a Beach Boy. I think everybody was held back and probably largely made miserable from the late '70s on. But I think Brian and Dennis are the only two who proved that they could have made it on their own if they had really set their minds to it. Carl did make two solo albums, but from what I've heard from just about every review I've seen is that they arent very good.

[runnersdialzero]

Should also mention that at one point or another every member of The Beach Boys (With the exception of Blondie and Ricky, who were at the right place at the right time) was in the wrong group.

What group would Al be in otherwise? No offense to him personally, but it's not like he had the songwriting chops or household name brand of the Wilson's. Mike is largely talentless and lives off the brand name; no way hed ever want to be anything but a Beach Boy. I think everybody was held back and probably largely made miserable from the late '70s on. But I think Brian and Dennis are the only two who proved that they could have made it on their own if they had really set their minds to it. Carl did make two solo albums, but from what I've heard from just about every review I've seen is that they arent very good.

Again, just because you can't "make it on your own" with the musical chops of Brian "Jesus" Wilson doesn't mean you wouldn't do well as part of another group. The implication that Al and Mike are "talentless" or nearly talentless isn't appreciated. No, they didn't write and produce five thousand songs a year like Brian did in his peak, but their names are attached to some really nice songs, productions, and performances.