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I know it was already posted in the other thread, but the other songs have their own links for now, so this one might as well, too.

http://www.esquire.com/entertainment/music/a33878/brian-wilson-10-favorite-songs/ (http://www.esquire.com/entertainment/music/a33878/brian-wilson-10-favorite-songs/)

nevermind..... sorry for this post..  :-[

This song is dope.

wait a minute... How many people (other than I) noticed that this song ends with Beethoven's 5th symphony?

Just a quick reaction because I have to go off:
Love it! Brian's really back this time as it seems. Way to go!

Nice that you can sit and watch  Guess, then stay to watch videos for The Right Time, Mini-Mansions, Brian+ Carnie+ Wendy from 1995( DIA), What Love Can Do, NPP trailer, Emile Haynie Falling apart, Runaway Dancer live, Emile Henie Falling Apart live....  

Sail Away hit RS today: http://tinyurl.com/nlej86r

Wow, what a track! I don't think it'd be possible to be unhappy while listening to this song.

Brian is 5/5 so far for this album.

I loved That Lucky Old Sun, and I'm sure I'll love this as well.

Sorry, my friend, you are completely wrong.  I work at a recording studio here in Nashville.  Kacey, according to reliable sources, said that Brian worked on her vocal for several hours until she got it perfect, and then had her multitrack her voice at least 5 times to get that sound.  Also, according to her, it was just her and Brian in the studio along with an engineer when she laid the track down.  One might conclude that since Kacey doesn't normally multitrack her vocals and Brian was working with her alone, either the engineer in the room forced him to record it that way, or it was his own idea.  We really should be better informed when we make definitive statements such as yours.

I was also surprised at this assertion. I didn't hear auto tune. Really enjoyed this song.

Holy crap...Brian is now 6 for 6 on awesome tunes that have been released in their entirety!

Damn. So good.

edit: Glad Brian finally decided to do his thing with this chord progression. One of my favorite chord progressions ever. There's something about it (with the right melodies) that is chill inducing.

Well said.  :thumbsup

So far my favorite track off the NPP. Just over a week till it's out! :)

Anyone else not able to load the video?  Whenever I try to click on it, it says "This video is private."

I like this one too.

Oddly enough, it would sound good on The Flaming Lips Yoshimi Battles The Pink Robots. Has a similar feel to those songs.

try clicking on a different part of the video (specifically the centre of the "video"). It won't play on the vimeo page, it only plays directly embedded into the Esquire article.

So were you there while the song was being mixed? Definitive "this has autotune!" statements may be overboard, but so is "you're completely wrong!"

I for one am finding it odd that all of a sudden autotuneish-sounding stuff is being explained away by "it's multitracked!" Now, let me back up. I'm not saying I find it odd that listeners are making this assertion. I think, and this is JUST A THEORY, that double tracking (or more) a lead vocal could be used to sort of take the edge off that autotune sound.

Double tracking a lead vocal is obviously a very old method. I'm also willing to stipulate to the fact that double tracking can give an autotune-ish effect to a voice, and I will *also* stipulate to the fact that previous uses of autotune can cause listeners to start assuming or waiting to hear it on the next song/album from an artist, and power of suggestion can go a long way.

But, given how WIDESPREAD the use of autotune-type plug-ins are, and the fact that they HAVE been used by some of the same folks working this new album, as well as the fact that some stuff *does* at least *sound* similar to an autotune effect; these things all tell me it's not far fetched to think that perhaps it has been used here and there to some degree. That doesn't preclude the artists from having done a million takes in the studio, nor does it preclude them from singing it as perfectly as they possibly can. It's not uncommon for a perfectly fine singer and a perfectly fine performance to have autotune gobbed all over their voice.

The mixture of better autotune (again, we're using autotune as a generic term for digital pitch correction plug-ins), a lighter hand on the autotune, then double or tripling he voice, and the mixing it, could take the edge off something like the robo voice heard on parts of TWGMTR.

News flash: We're never going to find out how much, if any autotune has been used. Are there a bunch of examples of artists admitting they use autotune?

So I don't think we should assume anything. But the mere accusation or question of whether autotune has been used should not be meant with an indignant tone.

This new tune sounds fine. It's the most "autotune-ish" sounding thing I've heard off the new album so far. Seriously, at this stage not everyone who suggest autotune might have been used are attacking the album, or the artists. It's like when your favorite band or singer does something you don't like on the track. Like when Al sticks a spoken-word intro on something, or when Mike has to namecheck old BB songs when he writes new lyrics, or when Clapton has to use a bright-sounding Strat on some song that needs a Les Paul and a Marshall stack. It doesn't necessarily make me hate the song. It's just a slight momentary "ah man, I could have done without that".

I'm also open to new "non-autotune" theories. Here's one: Young singers, especially *very* young singers, are now growing up hearing a lot of autotune. Maybe it's not insane to wonder if maybe young singers are using inflections and styles that emulate a bit of that autotune sound, and/or emulate the sound that our brains associate with autotune, and then it all starts sounding the same.

This.

I haven't even heard the track (I'm abstaining from listening to more from NPP until its release)... but it's impossible to say that there's no autotune on it. If autotune is mixed and implemented properly, it *should* essentially be invisible and not sound robotic. It should be wholly undetectable. I know, because I've used it a touch myself here and there for bum notes, and the moment it becomes even slightly apparent, I make sure to ease back on it.

Bottom line: We know Joe Thomas has used it in the past, it's been blatantly overused on a number of BW tunes (unarguably) over the years, so to think it's out of the question that it would be used on NPP (or on this track) is a bit absurd. For there to be some mythic no-autotune rule that BW would somehow magically implement to his current work, I would think that this would be publicized and pointed out specifically by the artist and/or producer, as a selling point to alleviate concerns to the people who it bugs so much. Since that's not happening, don't automatically expect autotune isn't there, even if it's invisible. Not saying that means it's on every single thing ever these days, but don't be so sure it's not on Joe Thomas product, even if it's less apparent.

Do we know, by any actual source, how much Thomas has had to do with the production/mix of this album?

"Guess You Had To Be There" sounds quite good; "Sail Away" isn't impressing me as much but not bad. 

Nope. He's been in a studio pic or two. It appears at least some of the songs on the album were co-written with Thomas. It was also mentioned that Joe was not in attendance for at least some sessions.

And all of that may or may not have anything to do with how much autotune is used or other post-production decisions are made.

sorry maybe I'm wrong..it could be her Vibrato that sounds like "auto Tune" to my ears.. maybe she just has that vibrato that goes up and down real fast I don't know, because I don't listen to her other stuff so I wouldn't know how her voice sounds.

I was not at the mix of course. Down here in Nashville we pride ourselves in pristine non altered recordings. Kacey is a killer musician. If she was at the mixes i highly doubt if she would allow even  Brian to auto tune her voice, especially if she spent hours recording it over and over again more than 5 times.  i don't know about previous albums who what when , nor do i care. we will never know. I think that not saying anything at all is not equal to an accusation such as this thrown at a wonderful singer. The accusation is far more damaging than my response. I can think of many hurtful and libelous things someone could write about another person. If someone were called a thief for example saying the person is not does not carry equal weight. But i will agree with you that my choice of words should have been as follows. I would highly doubt that Kacey would have allowed Brian to not only make her sing the lead vocal perfectly five or more times and then stack all of the vocals together, and then auto tune them in the mix. My God at some point don't you think she, her managers or label would have said stop? And once again I cannot imagine Brian having anything to do with it either. Can we please now get back to what a great song and performance these wonderful musicians have given us? Please!

So far, all of the songs that have shown up on iTunes have Joe Thomas co-writing credits.

Reposting what I wrote in the other thread. This is where I meant to put it.

I'm not a recording expert, and I've never heard her voice on anything else, that I know of. I do know that there's something artificial I'm hearing...some sort of effect. I can't imagine that if she were to sing live, into a microphone, with no effects on her voice, she would sound like that. If she does, I guess I just don't like her voice. But I can overlook that because I love the song.

So we have identified Thomas as the auto tune guy? Really? TWGMTR was executive produced by Mike Love. Produced by Brian Wilson.  I guess Thomas is the guy that steals the tracks in the middle of the night, gets no production credit and auto tunes the vocals? That makes sense!  All while Mike and Brian are in the studio together writing Little Deuce Coupe Part II !  Seriously, Ive read in several recording mags that as guy named Siedleman is touting that he recorded Brian or The Beach Boys. He goes in to great detail about what microphones he is using etc. Whats his story?

The problem with autotune use these days (in general) is that often times, singers who totally, absolutely don't need it (Al Jardine, for one) have it applied to their voices. Even if the songs are sung note-perfect, or as note-perfect as a human can get.

Some producers apply it for an additional modern "sheen" of some sort. Barf. Unfortunately. So if (and it's a big if, since I haven't even heard the song) it's been used here, and pointed out as such, it's not necessarily an "accusation" that's "thrown at a wonderful singer". It's more of an accusation that would be thrown at a producer, or someone who has chimed into the production process, possibly someone with a mullet, who thinks that this "sheen" is what's needed these days. Someone who Brian may trust, and about a topic which Brian doesn't want to quibble with or even deal with at this point in the game.

I agree... Why are we assuming that Joe is responsible if it's something we don't like? Brian likes vocal effects? Double-tracking, echo, etc. Why not auto-tune (or whatever this is)? Maybe not everything he does is to the fans' taste.

Mike Love, as far as I know, is the only member of the Beach Boys to actually ever utter the word "autotune" in an interview. To ever address the existence of autotune on planet Earth, and most certainly the only BB to mention it in relation to BB music. On one hand, I respect that someone in the band mentioned it... despite that, the fact is that I believe the context of when he mentioned it was most likely a lame underhanded dig at finding fault in Brian's new music (in order to downplay its greatness, since it doesn't have Mike Love on it). But I doubt that Mike would have ever objected to the use of autotune on his own vocals, especially if it meant having to do less vocal takes and less time in the oh-so-laborious-for-him studio.

Heroes and Villains!  On this thread unfortunately it seems there always has to be a villain.  Anything good must be tainted.  I freaking love this song, period!

That's why I asked. Someone was indirectly claiming Joe was responsible when I'm not sure how much he's actually been in the studio for the making of this album. I'm not at all identifying Joe as the "auto-tune" guy, nor do I think there is much, if any auto-tune on this record (from what I've heard). I hear some effect on Kacey's vocal and whatever it is, I really like it and it fits the song perfectly.

It's my impression that Joe was perhaps more involved initially. But as the sessions dragged and Brian stayed in L.A. (Joe is still Chicago-based), BW ended up running overdub and vocal sessions more on his own.

Yes and as stated vocal stacking or multi-tracking was used, not auto-tune.

What a fantastic song.

Man, every song so far from NPP has blown me away.

well I guess we had to be there to know what the effect is on her voice.,, :lol

If I was to pick a song so far to be released as a single, its this one.

Re: autotune. Some people are just blessed with really good pitch. If there is any pitch correction here it's very minimal, and that goes for Brian too. But to get away from the autotune debate... I'm so grateful that Brian regained his ability to sing "sweetly" again. His tone sounds so clear here, it's amazing. I can't remember the last time he sounded so comfortable and confident on a track. Listen to the way he sings "sharing" on the 2nd chorus. Or the way he comes in on "everything I ever wanted". Or "sippin on a new wine". He sounds so much better than the majority of the stuff he's put out in the past 40 years. His vocal swag is back!! He sounds 20 years younger than he did on Orange Crate Art. THIS is what "old" Brian should sound like. He's back on track guys. BRAVO BRIAN!

Definitely. This song is making me emotional it's that good.

I REALLY like the BW sections. Too bad the Musgrave sections just remind me of Hannah Montana/ Taylor Swift /Disney Channel silliness and drag it down. This could have really been nice without Musgrave, and BW did it all himself (maybe there's a version out there?).

I'm sick of hearing about autotune in these threads. I'm not surprised others are expressing frustration too, it's not being "indignant" at all to push back at this regular flogging of the autotune subject. Put me at the top of the list, I've had it. When there are specific mentions of autotune not being used and backed up both by engineers who work with it regularly and in some cases some people who know exactly what was or wasn't done, and it's still "up for debate", it gets my blood pressure up. And I don't need that.  :)

2+2=4, some things like this either are or they aren't. Simple as that. If it's too difficult to accept others' words not to mention professional opinions on these things, then it's like trying to prove 2+2 does not equal 4. Don Quixote had a better chance with those windmills.

And honestly I think (though I may be wrong) a good number of people here are sick and tired of having "autotune" show up in these threads which does take away from the actual song discussion when people are getting excited about hearing something for the first time.

CenturyDeprived, TimbNash, 18thOfMay and a few others I'm missing...100% right on and I agree with what you're saying, I couldn't agree more. Enjoy the song and share the enjoyment with others, that's the best part of all this. Autotune doesn't amount to jack squat in the big picture of all this, and it distracts and diverts from what many probably come to these threads to do. Just my opinion, not "official" or anything of the sort, but a strong opinion at that.

The song and performance itself - Fantastic. Kacey brings her "A Game" to the track. I was curious to hear what a truly talented modern country singer would do with a Brian Wilson original, and this one really hit a home run. No comparisons to Stars&Stripes, as both country music (especially female singers) and the whole music biz has changed since that release. This could be a crossover hit if the cards are played right.

It's true we don't know who, if anyone, is specifically instigating the decision nor actually doing the actually engineering work to add autotune to anything.

But whether it's Thomas or someone else, it doesn't require stealing the tracks in the middle of the night. It's all done right there in the studio. It's not a secret trick they whip out. It's all plugged right into the software. Some artists that are less involved (or interested) in production or engineering probably get autotuned and don't even know it. That doesn't apply to Brian. But it's not as if autotune is some separate outsourced effect producers have to farm out for.

I don't know how hands-on she is with production and engineering. Even artists that are very hands-on don't always get into the nitty gritty of production and mixing and engineering. On top of that, this is a BW album. I wouldn't assume she would even be consulted on mixing or engineering or mastering decisions. She signs a waiver/agreement to be on the recording, and she sings.

Just as, I would assume Paul McCartney did not need to approve the final mix and mastering of "A Friend Like You."

I don't know if Musgraves is hands-on, but even if she is, that wouldn't preclude autotune being used on her vocals on this track.

To reiterate, many amazing singers and musicians use autotune, both knowingly and (to some degree) unknowingly. And I would venture to guess autotune is used in Nashville too. It's used everywhere, from major studios to home brew stuff recorded on laptops and iPads.

I'm not sure how I feel about this track yet, but I'm still mostly undecided about most of them. I can't help but feel that I'd probably enjoy it more if it was a bit less polished.

Fingers crossed for some of the slower more melancholy tracks.

If Brian Wilson had listened to people complaining about his use of modern production technology, we wouldn't have Pet Sounds and Good Vibrations.

 :woot :woot :thumbsup :thumbsup :woot :woot :thumbsup :thumbsup :rock :rock

Or, one other possibility is that autotune is not equatable to Brian's groundbreaking 60s methods and techniques. Maybe some feel it isn't "just another tool."

In 50 more years, people will still be in awe of Brian's 60s work. They will not feel the same way about autotune. In my opinion of course.

The autotune debate has shifted though. It's no longer just a crutch for mediocre singers. Excellent singers are subjected to it too, simply because it's so en vogue and because it's just there to use. That's what's particularly frustrating (e.g. "From There to Back Again").

Half of this board thinks they're the Sherlock Holmes of autotune. I couldn't give a tuppenny f*** if Brian wants to use modern effects, enhancements or techniques. He's Brian Wilson, I'm not, he knows what he wants his records to sound like. Do these people go to magic shows with the sole intention of figuring out the illusions too? Personally I like to be swept away by the song, it's content and so on. You know, what do the kids call it...er...enjoying it?

I'm thinking this album will be a good mix between Love You and Today!

Some good pop songs, some retro-funky songs, and some beautiful ballads.

When NPP comes out, I'm going to start a thread determining what previous BB/BW album we'd  put each song on.

I don't have a problem with autotune on new work I guess but I personally think it should not be used for 'live' albums. Case in point, the C50. Over 70 concerts and not a half way decent version of every song....once? Bullsh!t.  

You're right. Brian just just sounds great on this track. The production is just fabulous. It's a shame the Musgrove sections detract so badly from what might've been something truly great. Surely, a re-record along the lines of Isn't It Time is warranted.

Sorry guitarfool2002, not to stir this up but, I agree the tuning on From There To Back Again was overkill in certain spots. Only certain spots. I don't think they intentionally wanted it to sound robotic though. As someone who works with autotune / melodyne on a daily basis, I can tell you it's really easy to get carried away and want things to be "perfect". There's a very thin line between natural and robotic tuning. It could've been done by an engineer who isn't familiar enough with vocal tuning to know when to scale it back a bit. And I doubt Brian would veto perfect pitch.

Also we don't know how many takes Al did, or was willing / had time to do. Al's amazing, but none of these guys are perfectly in tune anymore. Just listen to the live shows. So if some of the takes weren't on point, especially on straight held out notes with no vibrato, it's so so easy to slip into robot mode when tuning.  One would need to take extra special care to get it sounding natural, and even then it won't be completely unnoticeable. Stuff like budgets & deadlines, or lack of really caring could prevent that from happening.

That said, I think 'they' heard us because the stuff I'm hearing from NPP sounds a lot more natural. I'm sure there's tuning on every track - not for the sake of being cool, but to get things sounding really tight - and it sounds like they took good care this time around to not have it all sounding super robotic.   


You think so? Never heard her before, but I really like her tone. I think she's clearly above your everyday female pop singer, vocally. But yeah, great production. So many light years away from Imagination JT on many levels.  :woot

The Professor loves this song and calls it "bright and bouncy." This is a great album; I predict massive chart success and some grammys.

You don't know that.

Really nice song, and catchy as hell.

And for the record, that's not autotune...that's judicial use of plate reverb.

Consider this: Your post is a lame underhanded dig at finding fault in everything Mike says or does. I doubt that you would have ever objected to any other BB member saying something that many posters here actually agree with him about. I'm so tired of this. Why don't you folks just create your own finding fault in Mike thread, discuss your issues there and leave the other threads, those that aren't about Mike at all, alone with that subject?

+1 :)

Best. Post. Ever.

This should be part of the board's guidelines.

I agree that it’s difficult to pinpoint an exact person who would or could be responsible for any autotune. I think Joe Thomas is one of very few candidates (the live C50 album is probably the most damning potential evidence), and I don’t think for instance that we shouldn’t wonder if it’s Thomas simply because he’s not technically a “co-producer” on TWGMTR for instance. I can’t be the only one to find the “Recorded by” credit a bit odd, especially for a studio album. I’m sure it’s not an unheard of credit. But typically, there are “producers” and “engineers” (and second or assistant engineers, etc.). The “Recorded by” credit reads to me like a concession for someone who wants a credit above “engineer” but who, for whatever reason, is not getting an actual co-producer credit.

In any event, the continual conflation of “other” studio effects Brian has used in the past and autotune, while certainly a conflation that anyone is allowed to make, is I think the source of why someone might not understand why some listeners find autotune unpleasant. To some, it’s a different ball of wax. While it is being ostensibly used as an “effect” (though I think some *do* still use it cover up wonky singing, or even actual pleasant imperfections in singing), the ubiquitous nature of its use (both in the industry as a whole and how it impacts individual albums or songs) is something that some simply find unpleasant to a degree far beyond something like “oh, they used too much echo there” or “that guitar would have sounded better dry rather than run through a Leslie speaker” or “they should have used an old ribbon mic on that track”, etc.

Also, and this may be a very fine distinction, some who don’t like some aspect of a recording aren’t attacking Brian (or whoever) for it, and, aren’t even advocating that it shouldn’t have been done. They are simply saying “I don’t care for that autotune”, or whatever the aspect is. The same as the ZILLION times on this and every other music board where somebody said they don’t like a song, or a riff, or a vocal. It’s what we do here. We talk about stuff. Yes, the autotune thing has become a loaded question, but maybe there’s a reason for that. Maybe, for some, it *is* something a bit more worth pointing out than “they should have mixed up the piano during that section.” 

You don’t know this. I don’t know this. I don’t even say this is a way to subtly imply *I* think autotune was definitely used. But nobody here has engineered the sessions. I don’t think anyone has definitely said they know that no engineers at any point used any sort of pitch correcting plug-in on any song on the album.

Vocal stacking and multi-tracking *do not* always produce the same effect as autotune, nor does the use of vocal stacking and multi-tracking preclude the use of autotune. You can double track a lead vocal and still put autotune on one or both of those vocal tracks.

The Musgrave vocal sounds a bit odd, but I would also agree that it sounds like more of a case of a "wall of Kaseys" than anything else. Brian's vocals throughout the songs we've heard so far-- and Al's and Blondie's, as well-- all sound great. None of the over-processing heard on TWGMTR. Perhaps Brian had more time and more willing participants this time around, and was allowed to be as demanding as he wanted and therefore didn't have to resort to as many digital tricks?

Love love love this song. Modern, but also distinctly BW. I despise modern country, but Brian clearly knew how to use Musgraves' voice to bring out the best. I like that he's using other singers. He's all over these tracks on backgrounds, and it's just such a neat, and realistic, approach to making a fully satisfying recording.

What I saw in this thread was a few people who offered one-sentence descriptions that included the suggestion of autotune. I suppose folks could hedge what they say by saying “I think” rather than “it is”, but beyond that, I see some people quickly mentioning it sounds like autotune. It doesn’t even preclude someone from liking the song in question.

What I then see are much longer posts decrying the suggestion of autotune. The folks frustrated with the mention of autotune seem far more worked up about *that* than those who have said they think they hear autotune are worked up about thinking they hear autotune.

Seriously, if someone says they hate a song that’s okay, but if they say they hear autotune but still like the song, that’s more objectionable?

Seriously, the autotune thing is a legit topic, whether it was used on NPP or not. It was smeared all over TWGMTR and the C50 live album, to the point of testimonials from weird sources like Burton Cummings basically saying “Wtf?” The mere suggestion that some folks hear it on a vocal from a *guest vocalist* on NPP shouldn’t be attacked. Why is it not possible to just say “I don’t think I hear it” or something along those lines?

Seriously, I don’t think those who have uttered the word “autotune” are underhandedly trying to attack Brian.

Frankly, I'm ambivalent to this new music. Having listened to the available songs already, it's possible to have a better idea of where NPP is going. I love the fact the Brian is creating new music; I appreciate the fact that this is fresh-sounding; and also that he is keeping away from production cliche/patchwork of some of his solo efforts (sleighbells, clip clops, etc.).

Having said that, I find it so hard to relate to the sensibilty of these new recordings, that I am starting to wonder if those commonplace production and arrangement traits (even if provided by deafult by his longtime band) are not part of the ethos and essence of this man's music that we all came to love. Fuethermore the problem for me transcends the arrangements into the compositions. There is a classic American feel to most of Brian's music; even his weaker efforts are usually devoid of pedestrian sentimentality and very much colored by jazzy/bluesy-flavored pathos. There is a certain joie de vivre in Brian's music, even in his most pathetic songs, that is lacking here. He may be into writing stock-and-trade sentimental music like this; or it may be Joe's sensibility as a songwriter. Whatever the reason, it is taking me long to get used to this, and I fear this may be the first totally-unrelatable BW album for me.

That’s a fine position to take. But as I said before, some people are saying “autotune is on it but I still like it”, and they’re being attacked for suggesting it might be there. So it’s turning into another semantics debate about whether it’s there, as opposed to whether we like the song. There’s room for all the discussions and debates, but strong assertions that autotune definitely wasn’t used tend to undercut the argument that it doesn’t matter whether it was used.

Not to derail things too much here, but are you familiar with the piece CenturyDeprived is referencing? Whether Brian has never been within a thousand feet of autotune software or if he uses autotune in the shower every day, that “interview” with Mike where he referenced autotune was most assuredly, in my opinion, a heavily backhanded, loaded statement. As I said at the time during discussion of that interview, it would be the same as Brian being asked about a new Mike album and answering “I’m sure it’ll be great, as long as Mike doesn’t reference old BB songs in the lyrics or reference surfing or beaches.”

In other words, it was an obvious dig based on previous criticisms of Brian’s (and/or Joe’s) work as well as probably contemporaneous, ongoing discussion of the song (“The Right Time”) in question.

To each his own but I like her singing and I think it's great Brian has done something fresh. There will be plenty of tracks that Brian takes the full lead on. I did not realize how much better Brian is when he DOES NOT take the lead on everything until I heard TSS vs, BWPS. Same with TWGMTR. This to me is where Brian shines the best... his arrangements/songs/collaborations... and lots of other great voices.

This record has a modern feel to it and there is nothing wrong with that. It's 2015 not 1967.

I hear what you're saying, but it just sounds like a a long fart to me.

Indeed. The context of autotune being mentioned in that article almost seems like the subject was hinted to him by someone else. Perhaps someone on this board, or who reads this board. Because IMO, the autotune thing is something that is actually a real problem (sometimes it has been used acceptably on this band's material, while other times quite atrociously), and while this is a legit and fair thing to be criticizing, it seems Mike in the interview in question was trying very hard to find a criticism which can be considered legit and difficult to find fault with, out of revenge because he couldn't take the press release which stated that a BB album was not to be (implying that had an iota to do with it. Ahem). The irony is that I agree with him. I think autotune is uncool and shouldn't be used. However, it was all about context.

And Micha, I get what you're saying. I was not trying to derail the thread. I just thought it was worth mentioning because someone *else* in this thread brought up Mike in relation to autotune. I feel that it's a very sad bummer that Mike most likely (as evidenced by the interview in question, as well as what we are most likely to see in future interviews) will not be able to give outright praise to the album without throwing in some negative bashing about it… and my entire point is that I don't think that would be the case if he were on it. I think it's pure sour grapes, and my ultimate point is
the things he's complaining about are things that wouldn't even bother him if he were on the album, writing in his own preferred way, to begin with. I wouldn't have brought up Mike in relation to autotune whatsoever, if Mike himself hadn't brought it up in that interview.

I apologize if that was brought up in this particular thread. I was simply stating my opinion about autotune, how I agree in many ways with Mike, and how I disagree with the context in which it was brought up. The irony is that I am complaining about the very thing that you're complaining about, which is what we both feel is instances of appropriate context. If anything, both Mike and myself were wrong with regards to our context. If anything, they're both worthy of criticism.

Yes I did read it. But there's two things that bug me: First, CentDep postulates Mike's behavior when he gets to benefit himself from using Autotune and takes that as further evidence of how low down a person Mike is. Had he actually found an interview in which Mike praises Autotune, CentDep would have a legit point, but in fact he just imagines a scenario. Second, it has nothing to do with the ongoing discussion at all. He only brings the subject up to accuse Mike once more. That's what gets on my nerves. Good that Pinder didn't read that, this thread would derail instantly.

That is correct.  Nobody here knows.  So when the very first response to the OP was "nice thanks..... now this song HAS autotune..at least on Kacey's voice it does..", instead of commenting on the song, it ruffled a few feathers.  Mine among them.  Enjoy the music, if you're able.  Yeah, you can say, I don't like the slick sounding production, or whatever...that's fine.  Or maybe, "I think I'm hearing pitch correction going on...what do you guys think?"  Then maybe we can discuss it.  Cripes, a recording engineer from Nashville came on to say that he doesn't believe pitch correction was used on this particular recording, and the response was, "How do you know...were you there when it was mixed?"  No, he wasn't there, and neither were you.  But he works in the industry in Nashville, and his words hold more weight to me than those of the average Joe around here.  So, maybe, instead of arguing about sh*t that we know nothing about, how about if we talk about the music.  We all like music, right?

In fairness to Musgrave, I don't like Country, so it would have to be someone exceptional to win me over. I think her vocal lacks the needed playfulness suggested by the track. She's just not expressive.  I have no problem with the idea of guest vocalists. I think the jobs done by Nate Reuss, Sebu, and Peter Hollens were very nice indeed.

I'm with Micha. Why on earth should the fact that Mike is supposedly unable of praising NPP be brought up in this thread?

1.  Brian was one of the first to pioneer the use of new studio technology - always pushing the envelope.  Whatever the tools.  Decades ago he'd cut vocals in a lower key and speed them up to make the voices sound younger, something the Beach Boys have continued to do (California Dreamin).  All kinds of tricks at play in Smile and everything else.  While I take exception to auto-tune on the recent live album (the live version of Don't Back Down wins the award for the worst BB live recording ever), if it's at play here, I don't care.

2.  The song sounds GREAT, catchy, can't stop listening to it.

3.  No one has yet commented on the lyrics.  Is this Brian's subtle take on the 2012 reunion ending?

4.  The link from Esquire seems to have gone away.

Still there, still working. Listening to it now.

It's not random and for no reason other than to "bash" Mike, as some people would like to think. And now for some reason, we're debating my right (and others' rights) to dare mention specific items in particular threads as they relate, however peripherally, to the thread at hand. Someone else brought up autotune as it related to Mike. I replied with my take on that, and apologies if it got too off on a tangent, but my true wish (which I'll restate as lightly and refraining from "bashing" as much as possible, as I am guilty of sarcasm in some posts) is that I wish all the BBs would take an anti-autotune stance, or at least a stance against the overuse of autotune, and **not just when it suits their own political needs within the context of the band itself**. I think I have every right to mention it, sorry if my sarcasm got out of hand since I feel strongly about Mike's autotune mention being way uncool in its original interview context. The only thing less cool than that is the very overuse of autotune itself. Hope that clears things up. That is all.

No we're not. You have the right to invent scenarios, derail internet forum threads, and annoy people, as long as you don't get into conflict with legislation, but you don't HAVE to do it.

It's on the VEVO youtube channel now too:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgSU2rnMR_k (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgSU2rnMR_k)

While I would hope that if we all tried saying things like “it sounds like….” or “I think….” rather than “it is…” that it would eliminate the arguments/debates, I fear it probably wouldn’t. For me, I do make the assumption that most folks here weren’t there when the stuff was mixed, so I think it’s kind of implicit in any discussion that we know we don’t know much of anything for certain.

I just weigh all the available evidence accordingly, and given everything we know, I find it very difficult to eliminate the possibility of autotune to the point of not even raising it as a topic for discussion. I also weigh opinions accordingly, and also look at the internal logic of those opinions. Sometimes experts who know their s**t offer some very tenuous assertions in terms of logic. Anything to do with audio (to say nothing of music as an art) is almost painfully subjective; sometimes I’m amazed discussions can be had on the topic at all. I think we do pretty well here.

I also think autotune is a bit like those “invisible eye” 3D posters that became trendy in the 90s; I think some people simply aren’t seeing/hearing the effect. That makes discussion on the topic even more difficult and potentially divisive, as I suspect some who don’t hear the anomalies that result from digital pitch correction are still weighing in on the discussion.

I also don’t think those who bring it up are trying to flame or troll (or whatever the current lingo is). In most cases, they’re fans to the point of being interested enough to preview a BW track on the web and go to a message board and talk about it. It’s not a terribly popular thing to do apparently to suggest autotune. They seem to get criticism from multiple angles; there’s the “there’s no autotune because….” argument, as well as the “so what if autotune is on it?” argument, as well as the “I don’t know wtf autotune is and I don’t care” argument.  So I don’t mind if people have some b***s and stick up for their simple opinion. I also think sometimes what appears to be certitude (e.g “now *this* has autotune”) is more just a case of putting stylistic emphasis on what is inherently nothing more than an opinion. I know the person that says “this has autotune!” wasn’t there and doesn’t really know for certain.

I'm legitimately sorry if I annoyed you, and/or derailed the thread, and that was not my intent.  I've admitted I went too far with the sarcasm. At least I was talking about members of this band; real derailing would be if I started talking about something with zero connection to the band. One could also argue that getting into a long public discussion of thread postings (in and of itself, like this discussion of yours I'm replying to) is much more annoying than any derailing I may have inadvertently done.

Can anyone point to a specific part of Kacey's vocals when they're hearing autotune? Because I don't hear it at all. She sounds multi-tracked with a digital reverb.

 *If* Brian was/is using autotune, I would argue he's probably not “pioneering” the use of it. It has been in heavy use for 10-15 years now.

And that may well be a small part of the unspoken subtext of some of these debates on the topic. Some people feel that implicit in the use of autotune (or, on the other side of the debate, that implicit in the accusation of the use of autotune) is that Brian would in this scenario be a follower, using something that was initially used in the industry to cover up for mediocre singers and which has subsequently become an overused, trendy effect. Let me be clear, I’m not prepared to lodge such a complaint against Brian. I think the evidence is too subjective and circumstantial, and believe it or not, I actually *don’t* care that much about it. Brian has already proved himself a million times over. I don’t particularly care if he uses autotune for whatever reason. But because that’s how I feel, I also don’t mind my brain absorbing the idea and coping with the idea that he has used it, nor do I have trouble finding that something that is not to my liking, while simultaneously still enjoying the work in question.

Autotune was used very, very, very tastefully on the Gershwin album. Whoever worked on that took their time, clearly cared to make it as invisible as possible (despite that I know some people can point out autotune as being detectable in a few isolated spots, which I can hear if I really listen for it, but becomes nearly invisible when just sitting back and enjoying the record).

Seriously, whichever mixer/production person was responsible for the near-invisible autotune sound on Gershwin... they were on point. Imagine if they were used for every record from that point on.. TWGMTR, NPP, and the dreaded C50 live album (which I don't even own). 

That would have been nice.

Someone else claimed it’s old-fashioned plate reverb. I think the use of digital reverb can be distracting as well (and too much of any echo/reverb isn’t to my liking sometimes). Is it considered crapping on Brian’s new album to talk about overuse of reverb?

I will say this: In my opinion, instances going back to the 60s/70s/80s of Brian double-tracking lead vocals with reverb *don’t* give off that autotune-ish sound in any way. So this creates a conundrum, because even some folks who advocate that Brian *isn’t* using an autotune will acknowledge that the way some of these vocals are tracked/mixed can make it sound a bit like autotune does (there was at least one poster some time back who claimed “From There to Back Again” does NOT have any auotune, and was accomplished entirely by multi-tracking Al’s lead and adding effects). So what’s the cause of that? A theory I posited a little while back is that an alternative to actually using autotune to give that “sheen” to a vocal that’s trendy these days would be to use other means (double tracking, strategic use of reverb) to give that same sort of sheen. Is there someone out there trying to get an “autotune-ish” sound without using autotune? I dunno. More food for thought, nothing more.

I would guess there's another effect added, or it's simply the use of digital recording rather than analog that causes these songs to sound different than the 60s/70s/80s.

This is probably obvious, but the easiest way to detect autotune is to hear a voice unnaturally move from one note to another. I'm not hearing that on this song. There's a digital sound to Kacey's voice, but there doesn't seem to be any pitch correction.

I don't want to sound like I'm defending the production on these songs. I wish they sounded more natural, but I definitely don't hear auto-tune.

Here is a song with autotune: https://youtu.be/qet2VkEbcX4 (https://youtu.be/qet2VkEbcX4)

I'm personally not hearing even one instance in Kacey's vocals like that.

(http://www.countryweekly.com/sites/countryweekly.com/files/imagecache/node_page_image/article_images/screen-shot-2014_04_21-at-1.jpg)

This autotune thing is hilarious.  It's to the point that reverb gets called Autotune now.  "Oh, he put echo on the girl's vocals, he's touching up her stuff!"  I"m sure he was thinking about touching up her stuff but it had nothing to do with her great voice.

Kacey has a crisp, nicely tuned voice, and more importantly she knows her voice very well.  Most of her songs have little whistles, flourishes she adds in... she's doesn't have the world's greatest voice or even a voice that's anything special, but she knows how to use it competently and knows it's limitations.  Listen how inside the box it is, she's not singing a great range or anything that would need any kind of help with autotune.  It's clearly got a double tracked (triple tracked?) vocal behind the other vocal, with tons of reverb on it to make it sound like the old school reverb or 'slapback' they used in the 50's...  It's not just the effect because at times you can hear the backing vocal come in slightly different than the lead. 

Here's a great video of her singing one of her beautiful songs live:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjeQtRn5euw

Listen to her style: minimal range (because her voice isn't incredibly expansive) but very solid, even tone all through her range, and sweet beautiful melody runs that she's able to keep the same dynamic volume as her other notes.  She has a 'crisp' sound to her speaking, and singing voice which is what you're hearing on Brian's record, covered in reverb to make it even more crisp. 

I'd agree with the other guy, she's proud and actually very technical with her vocals (even live).  To go around saying everybody related to Brian Wilson is slathering autotune on their vocals is insulting and you should be ashamed of it. 

This is totally a song about the dissolution of the C50 band. In true BW/BB style, the bounciness disguises a lot.

Well I guess you had to be there
Such a different place
I was cruising along
Never thinking that we'd ever change.

Yeah, I guess you had to be there
It was a hell of a ride
Lines were blurry and hurried
But it felt like the stars had aligned

We were sharing a new day
Singing a new song
And everyone's problems
Were suddenly gone

Everything I ever wanted
Is right before my face
And all the beautiful people
Were always at my place

Well I guess you had to be there
All we wanted was more
There were winners and losers
And people passed out on my floor

And you know you should have called me
For that real good time
Guess you miss some of the gold
When you're too busy chasing the shine

We were sharing a new day
Singing a new song
And everyone's problems
Were suddenly gone

Everything I ever wanted
Is right in front of my face
Cause all the beautiful people
Were always at my place

(solo)

We were sharing a new day
Sippin' on a new wine
And everyone's problems
Were suddenly mine

And all you ever wanted
Is in right in front of your face
It starts as a good thing
Turns into a headache

Wow. I haven't heard a note yet, but those lyrics... totally spot-on about the topic. It's pretty obvious. Maybe Mike can write a song about his thoughts on C50 as a response/rebuttal. Let's hope he delves deep into himself to draw out his feelings as lyrics.

Now that's hilarious!   ;D

It was me, and actually I do think the reverb was a tad heavy, but it doesn't kill it for me.

As my sister was just telling me, whenever old rockers start writing about someone chasing gold, they're talking about fellow bandmates (or exes!).

Holy hell. Thanks for writing the lyrics out, Wirestone. Just based on the last line, I knew this song was about a lot more than the bouncy/happy melody would have you believe....but I was so enthralled with the actual music that I didn't really listen closely to the lyrics yet. When considered in this context this song really packs a punch.

I thought the song was more about the Beach Boys rise to success in the 60s, but it totally applies to C50, too.

From Brian's Facebook:
"I am so proud of the song "Guess You Had To Be There" from my new album, No Pier Pressure. Kacey wrote some wonderful lyrics on the verses and her sweet voice blew me away. Thank you Kacey. Love & Mercy, Brian"

Knowing that Kacey wrote some of the verses, I suspect that either she wrote the verses with the C50 fallout in mind or that she wrote the second verse on her own and Brian wrote at least a good portion of the rest of the song first. The second verse is the only one that doesn't seem to directly reference the breakup.

"Well I guess you had to be there
All we wanted was more
There were winners and losers
And people passed out on my floor

And you know you should have called me
For that real good time
Guess you miss some of the gold
When you're too busy chasing the shine"

I was thinking the chasing the shine was Mike ... lol.

An excerpt of the summer 2014 RS article on the session with Kacey, followed by engineer Wesley Seidman's interview from Mix magazine this fall describing the recording of the new album at Ocean Way:

Today, Wilson sits at the console at Ocean Way, recording Musgraves' vocals for "Guess You Had to Be There." He sips wheatgrass juice and munches on a chocolate doughnut. The song is lighthearted and fun, but the session didn't start that way. "Kacey said, 'Boy, he really tells you when he doesn't like your pitch,'" says Wilson's manager.
Wilson is often passive in social situations, but in the studio he barks instructions to musicians and creates complex vocal arrangements on the spot. "When it's good it's good, when it's not – do it again," he says. "But after three tries, Kacey nailed it. I like the way she just slides over the notes – she has a very cool sound."


http://mixonline.com/recording/artists_engineers_producers/brian_wilson_and_friends_at_ocean_way_studios/ (http://mixonline.com/recording/artists_engineers_producers/brian_wilson_and_friends_at_ocean_way_studios/)

Between Brian Wilson and Ocean Way Studios, Hollywood, you’ve got a whole lot of history, and a lot of musical possibilities.

Wilson began his latest project—an upcoming album of solo performances and duets with famous guests—in the three-studio complex a year-and-a-half ago. Now, fans are waiting with baited breath to hear the tracks, which at press time were being mixed by Bob Clearmountain.

“When Brian finished that last Beach Boys record [That’s Why God Made the Radio, 2012], he soon after began work on this one,” says Ocean Way’s senior staff engineer, Wesley Seidman, who recorded the new tracks. “Brian never stops writing. He’ll come in with a vocal idea, a piano demo that he made on his Dictaphone at home or he will just sit at the piano in the live room, and quickly those ideas become a song.”

Seidman captured the performances to Pro Tools in all three of the studios at Ocean Way (A, B and D), but the engineer says Wilson prefers to do live band tracking and orchestral sections in Studio B, a room that has also hosted sessions for award-winning albums by Green Day, Radiohead, and Eric Clapton with B.B. King: “It’s just the sound and feel of the room itself, and the [custom 56-Input 8068/8088] Neve doesn’t hurt,” Seidman says. “He did almost all of the work on his solo records in there. But he also likes Studio A, where we cut a few tracks and is my favorite room for strings. We also cut a lot of the background vocals and guest vocals for the new album in D.”

Though the final track list wasn’t available at press time, Seidman reveals that guests who cut with Wilson for this upcoming album include musician/producer/label exec Don Was on bass; guitarist Dean Parks; drummers Jim Keltner and Kenny Aronoff; and in-demand vocalists such as Zooey Deschanel, country star Kacey Musgraves, Nate Ruess of Fun., and popular singer/songwriter Lana Del Rey.

Wilson’s vocals were recorded in all three rooms with a Neumann U 47. In Studio A, his voice went through the modified Focusrite console to a Teletronix LA-2A. “In D, we would go through the remote Neve pre’s into an [Universal Audio] 1176, and then toward the last third of the record, I purchased a modified API mic pre, which has amazing bandwidth, and sent the 47 through that, into an 1176. And this is all flat—Brian EQs himself by moving around the mic, which he does naturally. We also used a plethora of [UAD] reverb and delay plug-ins. This enabled us to automate the delay and reverb times for each section of the songs where desired. Brian and I both like the FX to be just right.

“It’s always a pleasure to record such a talented and professional artist like Brian,” Seidman continues. “He also is actually a very funny person. He’s one of the few people able to make me laugh out loud on a regular basis.”

One of the advantages of working in a studio with Ocean Way’s history and reputation is the opportunity to audition new equipment, alongside the vintage. On Wilson’s sessions, Seidman tried out a batch of brand-new Sanken microphones.

“Jim Pace brought us these super-high-fidelity mics—the C0-100Ks,” says Seidman whose nine years and counting at Ocean Way were preceded by stints with Nathaniel Kunkel and Conway Studios. “We tried them on drum overheads, orchestra and horn rooms—they were really amazing. We also used them on a mandolin and acoustic lap steel. Another mic they gave us was the CU-55, which is my new favorite acoustic guitar and banjo mic. It really captures the instrument as it is. It complements the dynamics, so there was no need for a compressor. It’s one of my future purchases for sure.

“Ocean Way is one of only a handful of studios left where you get the opportunity to try the latest things in a controlled environment,” Seidman says. “I also think that musicians actually play differently when they’re there. I’ve worked with a lot of these same players in other places and they’re always amazing, but it’s almost like they get into a different zone when recording in these rooms. There is something very unique about the way the rooms sound and feel at Ocean Way, to the point where I’ve had friends call me up and ask, ‘Was this done at Ocean Way?’ They can tell. They’re getting some kind of overall picture of the rooms themselves and the way people play when they record in them.”

All right, we lay it to rest then. :)

Sorry guys but I have to jump in here , as you could not be more off base with this interpetation. This song has zero to do with the C50 breakup , and everything to do with the 64-66 period in BRIAN's life.  When I was out there, Brian had already written the lyrics to the chorus' and then he recorded the chorus vocals. His kids were very into Kacey's record , so he had been listening to it and liked her voice and her lyrics; he really liked the lyrics . The first time they met , she had flown out to LA just to sit and discuss the song with Brian , and what his vision of it was. They talked about how it was when their individual careers got rolling; Brian asked her to write the lyrics for the verses talking about that, which is what you are hearing in the verses. For example, the part " guess you miss some of the gold " ( relationships , friendships, happiness) "when youre too busy chasing the shine" (chasing money and fame).

My recommendation is that you have a good listen to what I think is a great record, and all this distraction from enjoying it turns into a headache.

I'm glad you commented on that, Ray.  I remember reading an official statement that it was about an earlier period in Brian's life. but I couldn't find it.  Good to know I remembered correctly.

Edit: Whoops

Believe me, I'm enjoying and treasuring the music. It's fun sometimes to try poking a little deeper, but it's also great to hear about how the song came together. Thanks for the background, Ray.

How does that line about winners and losers and people passed out on my floor figure into the c50 ? 

I am very glad you are here to set us (including me) straight, Ray.

You weren't there. Most of us aren't just looking for autotune. There is a gross, shiny gloss that comes with Joe Thomas' work that serves to cheapen and badly date Brian's work. It's a problem. It's nothing to do with doubling vocals - they've been doing that since the very beginning. Digital is not inherently bad at all, nor is vocal tuning - it's very possibly to do it seamlessly without said gloss. Not all autotune sounds like T-Pain. That's an extreme, but it can also be overdone to the point of creating... well, the previously described gross, shiny gloss on That's Why God Made The Radio and this album.

I'm sorry, Joe Thomas does a very poor job and it's upsetting to see him preserve Brian's work like this. If you think well-meaning people who say "The vocal sounds bad, it's not necessary. I wish Joe Thomas didn't cheapen Brian's music like this" are annoying, then know that these love-it-or-leave-it "THERE'S NO AUTOTUNE, THAT'S A FACT" fingers-in-my-ears-la-la-la posts are much more obnoxious.

Indeed. Thanks Ray!

Ha! Do you realize how important it was for you to post that response Ray? People here love to spout opinions off as fact and unchallenged it would "become fact". Look at all of the " gee wirestone your right" within such a short time. It would have gone on for pages.

Thanks a million.

Yeah, differing opinions and insights suck. I just want to be told what every song is about right out of the box, I want everything to be safe and easy to understand, and I want to listen to critically-acclaimed, dignified-feeling classic rock only.

Not sure what your problem is but saying a song IS TOTALLY about the c50 by a guy that has been griping about the way it ended for 2 years is not an opinion. Wirestone was spouting it as fact and others hopped on board. That is how myths like "Mike Love killed smile" get/got started.

We appreciate your insights. What are your insights, by the way? All I hear - and correct me if I am not wrong - is childish complaints. No one is forcing anyone to like these new tracks, don't act like that is the case, we are adults. Seems to me you are playing the victim, a fairly flawed modus operandi if you'd ask me.

Personally I love what I have heard and seen of NPP. When I listen to songs on the radio I hear productions and melodies I don't particularly like. When I listen to NPP I hear catchy melodies and solid vocals (Al, Blondie, Brian, Kacey and Nate) that put a big smile on my face. Most other contemporary songs fail to do so. Brian's still going strong in 2015, he survived all the decades of hardships and he is happy and comfortable with friends/colleagues that he loves and trusts.

Sail Away is BW/BB classic.
Saturday Night is a potential hit.
Runaway Dancer is Brian tapping into modern dance music.
Guess You Had To Be There is an ultra catchy tune with a Grammy Award winning and most lovely and adorable country songstress.

All these songs are so much better than anything I, as a longtime Beach Boys fan, could ever have asked for.

This is the best BW/BB album since Love You. I already look forward to Brian's next album should he be willing to record another one! :)

frog, the professor agrees with you. What do you think about our special love and the right time? the professor loves these songs in particular, while also loving the others in particular too. I am looking forward to hearing Brian Al and Dave on what ever happened. I wonder why that one has not leaked out. frog, you are very smart, and the professor enjoys your posts.



ote author=Swedish Frog link=topic=20187.msg507182#msg507182 date=1427310239]

We appreciate your insights. What are your insights, by the way? All I hear - and correct me if I am not wrong - is childish complaints. No one is forcing anyone to like these new tracks, don't act like that is the case, we are adults. Seems to me you are playing the victim, a fairly flawed modus operandi if you'd ask me.

Personally I love what I have heard and seen of NPP. When I listen to songs on the radio I hear productions and melodies I don't particularly like. When I listen to NPP I hear catchy melodies and solid vocals (Al, Blondie, Brian, Kacey and Nate) that put a big smile on my face. Most other contemporary songs fail to do so. Brian's still going strong in 2015, he survived all the decades of hardships and he is happy and comfortable with friends/colleagues that he loves and trusts.

Sail Away is BW/BB classic.
Saturday Night is a potential hit.
Runaway Dancer is Brian tapping into modern dance music.
Guess You Had To Be There is an ultra catchy tune with a Grammy Award winning and most lovely and adorable country songstress.

All these songs are so much better than anything I, as a longtime Beach Boys fan, could ever have asked for.

This is the best BW/BB album since Love You. I already look forward to Brian's next album should he be willing to record another one! :)


[/quote]

Sigh. I've made two posts in this thread, one of which was a pretty rational, well-meaning "Calm down, please" post. I never told anyone they couldn't like anything, I was pretty rational, I'm not sure why you're pinning that on me.

I haven't posted often lately. Thanks for making me want to post a little less.

I think this makes a bunch of incorrect assumptions:

1. Wirestone was 100% certain WTF the song could mean
2. Folks reading his post would think he was 100% certain
3. Anyone or everyone here is dumb enough to take one person’s opinion and cite it as fact

To recap:

1. I got the impression Wirestone was offering an interpretation; one that was interesting and additionally helpful since we don’t have transcribed lyrics yet
2. Same as above, it’s painfully obvious it’s one interpretation.
3. While I acknowledge that some things on boards (or books) can be misquoted or attributed or misremembered after the fact, I don’t think everybody was getting ready to write a headline story that a song co-written by Kacey Musgraves is a clear tome about C50. The positive comments to Wirestone were, as I saw them, meant to commend an interesting interpretation.

Further, Ray Lawlor isn’t going to be here to tell us how every song was written. We’re going to have to guess. Most of us can wrap our heads around the idea that it’s all theories. To that end, Wirestone’s post was interesting.

I think maybe there’s some sort of weird problem lately here with interpretation of language. If someone says “oh man, that’s *totally* about C50!”, it’s sometimes just a use of language to provide enthusiasm or emphasis or surprise. And guess what? Maybe sometimes someone uses that sort of language and really literally means it! For that matter, someone might read Ray’s explanation and first-hand knowledge and *still* believe there’s another subtext to the lyrics. So what?

Again, inherent in anything we post here is that it’s opinion. Unless it’s something absolutely concrete like release dates or session dates (and even *those* can be debated sometimes!), everything else is ultimately some level of conjecture. Seriously. If Brian released a song called “Mike Love can shove the 50th Up His A**” you’d still have someone claiming Brian was just writing a song about a friendly reminder for Mike to have a 50th colonoscopy.

What do people think, is the last word definitely headache? I originally heard it as habit but I accept that I could be wrong.

 :lol :o

The sad thing is, you are probably correct in your assumption.

HeyJude nailed it. Thanks.

It was, indeed, my enthusiasm for and interpretation of the lyrics that led me to write the way I did.

It has been reported that Brian wrote "The Last Song" about the ending of the C50, so I thought it was possible -- likely, even -- that another song might talk about it as well. I was wrong. It happens. I also thought it was nice to have the lyrics all written out so we could take a look at them.

I've been lucky enough to chat with Ray a few times, and he's a mensch. He's welcome to correct me anytime.

Thanks so much for sharing your insight, Ray.   When I read the line "And all the beautiful people / Were always at my place," I immediately flashed back to a "Love and Mercy" scene in Brian's living room, so thanks for confirming that connection!

  +10   :woot

Where's the autotune on this track? Not all autotune is as obvious as T-Pain, but if it's on this track then you should be able to detect it. Where is it? What's the time marking on the song?

Vocal gloss is not auto-tune. I hear vocal gloss on Kacey's vocals, but for the life of me, I cannot hear any autotune.

Saying, "you weren't there, so you don't know if there's autotune" seems very strange when there's no evidence of autotune.

Think the mods need to use that board function where a replacement word for autotune, auto-tune or any possible variation is automatically inserted when someone types it. Suggestions?

I suggest " Incredible production technique"

Acronym: IPT.
Example: "I hear IPT on this track."

That's a little 1984-ish.

Yeah, good idea, let's stifle (mostly) constructive criticism, with the music's best interest in mind, of everything. Maybe change the board theme to be a bit cheerier, maybe a nice blue color, and at the top they can rename it the "Love it or leave it, asshole" message board in bold, red Comic Sans font.

The totally garbled, warbly sheen over the entire vocal of this song (and every other song that's surfaced, while admittedly much worse on every other song. Especially Brian's vocals, which is telling), only achieved by this particular effect and not multitracking, digital reverb, etc. etc. etc. and that's already heavily present on every one of Joe's productions for Brian in the last few years?

I can admit I wasn't there and say I could be wrong. Some folks on the other side of the fence refuse to be wrong and saying things like "these are the facts" and "you should be ashamed" etc. and using it "prove" they're right about this. It's like when kids angrily say "AND THAT'S FINAL" because they're out of things to say and just want to shut the conversation down.

(...)

It's so great to have someone who's in the know like Ray Lawlor being able to contribute to the conversation and even to set the record straight when needed. It's silly that people were projecting this BB50 theory on Guess You Had To Be There when it really crumbles under any close scrutiny.

I don't know if it's auto­tune, "Pro-Tools" (remember how everybody on this board used to complain about "Pro-Tools" on every song? Auto­tune is the new Pro-Tools), vocal gloss, reverb, vocal stacking, Kacey Musgraves sniffing helium, rats eating studio wiring or whatever, but there's something VERY WRONG with the vocals.

Sure, it could be due to the fact that this is a low-quality stream, I've heard that explanation a hundred times, and guess what: each time, that annoying effect could still be heard on the CD, less obvious but still easily noticeable.

I was right! Thanks for setting the record straight, Ray.

Autotune... people.....

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Anyone who's hearing autotune on the 2015 BW tracks so far make fools of themselves..

The whole point of the thing with Kacey is : she doesn't sing anything out of her range, which is pretty limited.  Nothing on this song is a stretch, at all, for anybody to sing vocally.  All of her music is like that, she sings what's in her wheelhouse, because ultimately she's more of a songwriter than a singer.  I linked a video of what her typical live performance is like.  Solid vocals that are right on key, because she's singing competently in her space.  She's very good at it, and all of her songs anybody can sing along to. 

Since we can probably all agree that what she's singing isn't very hard to sing, and it's evident in live performances that she sings in key, why is it so hard to believe that they didn't have to 'autotune' her voice?  Autotune is a pitch correction tool.  If they're singing it on pitch, there's nothing to pitch correct. 

If you hear it on her voice, she's luckily singing words, so each part of the song is easily identifiable as a word.  So tell me the word that's been pitch corrected with autotune.

If you say it's just a 'sound' on her vocals, that's not autotune it's a combination of her natural sound (she has a very clean, almost sterile speaking voice without much of any accent at all) and the multitracking/reverb that's obviously all over the song (and most of Brian's songs). 

Saying a woman's vocals that are pretty simple to record or sing had to be autotuned is insulting.

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So it all starts with, hey, 70 year old Brian Wilson was a drug addict, had mental illness, and it ruined his voice.  Now he uses autotune on his voice!

Then it went to "You know, on some of his songs I can't even hear it, they did a better job of hiding it!" .  It's never even considered that, oh, maybe there's no autotune on it at all. 

All the while we have moments where he sings in concert straight in key.

So then it becomes, well, when he sings live, they use LIVE AUTOTUNE!  If you're in the arena, they're running his microphone through the effect!  They're doing it on the fly!

Then it becomes, The entire band is being autotuned!  Al Jardine (who sounds great in any recording... EVER) is being autotuned.  He's now robo al.  Of course he's also 70.  He just can't cut it anymore, so they touch his vocals up.

Then for awhile people were saying Foskett's stuff was autotuned on the BB's album.





Now we've gotten to, Hey, the 25 year old starlet who's in the prime of her career, singing a <1 octave range is being auto-tuned... because it was recorded by Brian Wilson. 

The reason it sounds like that is because a pro producer got together with a pro singer and they made that sh*t FAB

Can we compromise and please call it something else? Because that's not how autotune works. Autotune is pitch correction. It's when a vocal is tweaked to hit a certain note that the singer couldn't hit naturally. It is obvious most of the time.

That's not happening (as far as I can tell) at all on this track. You have an issue with some sort of effect, not autotune or pitch correction.

That a singer doesn't need autotune is increasingly becoming irrelevant, unfortunately. Many singers who don't need it have had it applied (and not just in the "sure, they might sound off here and there, but that's okay" way, but in the "they sing fine and autotune is still added" way).

It *is* being used as an effect on many songs. The subtext in the autotune discussion that it implies the singer sucks and needs a NASA supercomputer to fix their voice isn't really at play. That probably happens too. But it's also being used as trendy effect for fine singers. So at a certain stage, when someone says "ew, that sounds like autotune", they're not calling the artists' abilities into question. It's just a distracting effect for some. I repeat, I don't believe most people are calling the artists' integrity into question. It's more like a lament; this was certainly the case with "From There to Back Again."


That's not how autotune always works. Yes, it *can* be used to do tiny fixes for individual words or syllables. But whether it's there or not, it's vividly clear that the people hearing autotune on stuff like the song in question are hearing it *throughout.*

To use the "reverb" analogy that has been used, if reverb is added to a lead vocal track from beginning to end and one doesn't like it, they can't then single out "one word" where they hear it. It's on the whole thing.

Criticize all you want. Personally I have a bigger problem with the overall quality of the songwriting rather than any performance/production flaws. It seems a bit Brian-Lite to me, like he started the songs but didn't finish them (although that was part of his q&a songwriting advice I think...to finish them). Before people try track me down and murder me...Brian Wilson is easily my favourite songwriter of all time...maybe I just expect too much. Sorry.

It's not silly. It was just a theory, and one that actually made enough sense to be plausible. Why are people so worked up about it, and still giving Wirestone s**t about it?

This is a board that once had a thread about "What would the BB's be like if they had been born female?"

Wirestone, did you get the memo about the TPS report? Did you? Did you? :lol

That's apparently what needs to be done now. It would probably be easier to stop saying autotune (apparently even if it REALLY sounds like it to you), and just say you don't like the "sound" of it. Then, even when you say you LOVE the song even if you don't like exact mixing or timbre or ambience of the vocal, we'll see if people still jump down your throat about it.

Ridiculous. Now we're calling people "fools"? 

Whether any pitch-altering effect is at play is questionable. It may not be the actual "AutoTune" plug-in. It could be any number of plug-ins that incorporate pitch correction elements. But I don't think we're just getting caught up on calling generic tape "cellophane tape" instead of "Scotch tape."

I don't think it's out of line to question whether some sort of plug-in that incorporates some level of pitch correction/alteration/sustain might be at play.

Googling "plug-ins that sound like autotune" results in a number of *other* software suites that do the same or similar things, and can do everything from correcting one note to giving a sheen to the whole performance, to sounding like a robot, to turning one voice into a choir.

Every mention of these software suites notes that they are *standard* studio equipment now. I presume Brian has probably migrated exclusively to digital recording now (and even if he tracks stuff on analog tape, it's then dumped into ProTools or some similar program).

It all is too hazy to know WTF is going on. We can try saying something other than autotune (even though I don't think it's out of the realm of possibilities that the literal Antares program Auto-Tune could be at play) I guess. I don't know if that's going to help, though.

Right! should have used " Tools"

To clear this up for Ray and everyone else, I didn't postulate a "theory."  I simply asked a question.  Over the last many months, official sanctioned PR on this album noted the presence of a forthcoming song on the album that dealt with the aftermath of the 2012 reunion.  I found the lyrics - which have a great dramatic arc from positive to negative - fascinating and simply wondered if this might be the song in the PR blurbs.

Here's my post:

"3.  No one has yet commented on the lyrics.  Is this Brian's subtle take on the 2012 reunion ending?"

A question.  Simple as that.  Nuff said.

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It's a figure of speech, mate. But I guess you know that. So.. bait not taken.





;D

This debate has been going on in one form or another since Imagination. Whatever program it is, whatever you want to call it, it's more than likely that some sort of pitch correction software has been used on some Brian Wilson recording of the past 17 years.

The question is, what do you do about it? What real contribution does it make to the discussion to start going back-and-forth about the technology's use? All the pitch correction in the world cannot make a bad performance good. If that were the case, GIOMH would be considered a great classic. It's a tool, one of an arsenal of tools available to modern recording artists.

If there was any indication that Brian was half-assing this record, or that Joe Thomas had secretly whisked the tapes away to Illinois to finish them without Brian's knowledge, that would be one thing. But by all accounts, Brian was as active and engaged in the recording of this album as any of his solo projects in the past quarter century.

So whatever is on the record is on the record. Brian liked it or signed off on it in some way. What we now need to do, is figure out a way to talk about the record and its contents without having every discussion derailed into a autotune versus no autotune versus insert pitch correction software name here debate.

Whatever was used on the Beach Boys record was, in my opinion, too much. This album though, sounds to my ears more naturalistic. It's still polished, and it still has a sheen. Again though, that's the choice of the artist. And the ultimate artistic intent and goal is what's worth talking about.

I'm the one who went further, Steve. Your question was fair. I'm to blame on this one.

Does anyone think that were people passed out on the floor during BB50? (unless it was afternoon nap time for the old fellers) As I stated, the "theory" didn't hold water, and yet like wildfire, people were jumping on the bandwagon that the song was about BB50.  I'm guessing that some people were blinded by the thought they had new fuel for their Mike Love-bashing. That's my silly theory. P.S I think Wirestone's posts are pretty swell as a rule.

No supper for you! Now go to your room... ;D

Just don't argue about me. I'm a big boy and can deal with whatever comes my way. I've made a bunch of posts in the past that are stupid, and I'm sure I'm going to make a bunch more.

Brian's wife Marilyn also didn't literally "glow" either as far as I know (and hey, some still swear "Caroline, No" has nothing to do with her). Point is, I've seen *far* crazier theories than the one Wirestone offered. Interpreting lyrics is a minefield of subjectivity. Sometimes even the authors don't know wtf they're saying, or won't say.

I didn't for one second see an angle to bash Mike Love in Wirestone's comments. I understand why one might think that was possible, but I think that speaks more to people who have a distaste for negative comments about Mike Love looking for something to jump on, waiting in the wings for more evidence of nothing more than the possibility of something that could be interpreted as "Mike bashing."

Even if you thought Mike was a total d**k and thought Brian was writing specifically about Mike being a d**k in that song, that wouldn't negate the mere theory of the song being about C50.

One could say "I don't think Mike is a d**k at all, but it sounds like Brian does in that song!"

All good points.

I agree there is nothing on NPP on the magnitude of TWGMTR as far as wonky autotune-ish effects. I think it's quite possible that was in response to complaints from fans and spectators. Maybe Joe Thomas just *really* listens to what Burton Cummings thinks.  :lol

We are indeed getting hung up a on lot of semantics. I would submit that a solution would be for everybody to acknowledge that some folks might think autotune is on these recordings, and to feel free to ignore such theories. Everybody just accepting essentially the simple idea that everybody has an opinion (and implicit in almost every post here is that it is just an opinion, even if it is stated in very plain language (e.g. "autotune is on that!")) would be far easier and more fair than asking people who think autotune is on a given recording to just *not* say anything.

Can you point to a song that uses autotune or pitch correction that sounds like Kacey Musgraves' vocals on this song?

I was very pessimistic about this album until yesterday. The Amazon and Google samples didn't sound promising, although "Right Time" had grown on me.

When I listened to the samples, "Guess You Had to Be There" seemed catchy but unremarkable. Now, hearing the whole song, it's a very nice piece of work.

I've never been a huge fan of the guest vocalist idea, aside from Al and Blondie. It has negative precedents in Stars & Stripes (I forget which volume) and Gettin' In Ober My Head.

This is my first time hearing Kacey Musgraves sing. Her performance is excellent. She doesn't go overboard or over-emote (like Ruess seems to) and she delivers the lyrics with conviction.

The effect on Kacey's voice that some people are hearing as Autotune is most likely either some chorus-type effect, or just the sound of two or three vocal tracks layered together (perhaps with some reverb). It was jarring to me at first - Kacey's lead is produced a little too slick for my liking, when juxtaposed with the backing track and Brian's vocal.

Brian has been stepping up his latter-day vocal game continually since Brian Wilson Presents SMiLe. He's tried new things, from growling on "Goin' Home" to softly crooning on "I Loves You Porgy" from the Gershwin album.

I felt like Brian's vocals on Thats Why God Made the Radio were a step back overall. Probably about the quality level of Brian Wilson Presents SMiLe. I always wondered why this was, considering his stellar, largely non-pitch corrected vocals on Brian Wilson Reimagines Gershwin.

On No Pier Pressure, Brian has some very gifted vocalists singing lead. It sounds like he is once again stepping up his game, and trying new things vocally in order to match and complement the work of his guest vocalists. He sounds fantastic on "Guess You Had to Be There."

Production aside, the song itself could have fit on That Lucky Old Sun. I'm curious whether Scott Benett helped write the lyrics. It is very much in the vein of "Goin' Home" lyrically, with Brian wryly looking back on his early years. In this case, it seems like he is singing about how his success was a mixed blessing (I'm thinking specifically about the SMiLe era).

The backing track reminds me a little bit of a "I've Got Plenty of Nothin'" from the Gershwin album, but with a backbeat. It's a fairly economical arrangement, with marimba, banjo, bass, and guitar (and maybe mandolin) weaving arpeggios together. The arrangement settles down and opens up in the verses, and seems to gain momentum with every chorus.

This is a rare example of a Brian Wilson song that uses a prominent electric guitar solo and rock and roll drums effectively. In other words, it's the opposite of "Bluebirds over The Mountain." The abrupt ending is also nicely thought out - reminds me of the kinds of little details we hear in McCartney's best work.

The evolving harmonies add significantly to the momentum of the song. As with Brian's best work, the harmonies are almost like a song unto themselves.

* Edited to remove redundancies, and to add that Kacie definitely has reverb on her vocal, as well as double- or triple-tracking. At one point, you can hear her vocal in the left channel begin slightly before the rest of the voices. I'm guessing maybe three vocal tracks.

b00ts!!!!! 8)

You understand that a number of producers do not think like this nowadays, though? They throw the filter on regardless, they think nothing of it, it's just like compression or reverb to them. It's a safety net applied to most tracks to ensure everything is "right" when music shouldn't be about being "right". They're not sitting they're debating "Was she in tune? Was it bad?" They're throwing it right in there along with the compression etc. simply because "that's how you do it now." They think said glossy, warbly character sounds "nice", just as people thought chamber-reverbed drum machines and 800 goofy keyboard overdubs sounded "nice" in the 80s.

More often than not, people are not using autotune to compensate for a poor vocal, they're using it just because it's what you do now. It's grating, it's ill-fitting, it's totally stupid and it's not going to age well at all. Joe Thomas' "work" is only serving to greatly cheapen what I hate to say will go down as some of the Beach Boys' final recordings together. It's really, really depressing. You can say "Just listen to the songs", but fuck, there's a point where it becomes a distraction and really takes away from the experience.

You can use pitch correction without lazily throwing a filter over the entirety of it and calling it a day. It doesn't have to be detectable in the slightestl, it doesn't have to have said glossy, warbly sheen all over it. But no, no one wants to put the work in, no one wants to give Brian's music the level of attention it deserves. Just throw a filter on it, it's the thing to do nowadays, it's cool, just collect your fat paycheck and go home and farm your hair some more.

Have tried multiple times on multiple laptops and phones to listen to this from the Esquire site, and every time no audio or video comes up, only a black screen in its place. Anyone else had this problem? Any other way to listen to it?

Nevermind, found another source.

I'm not particularly impressed with this cut

What I'm hearing, more than any putative post-production twiddling, is a very mundane song. Pleasant enough, but... mundane. Or maybe it's becoming obvious I'm not one for girly vocals.   ;D

That said, the majority of the other numbers are hugely encouraging.

... it's an earworm.

Mmmmmmmmm... no. No, it isn't.

"Runaway Dancer", on the other hand, is.  ;D

Having finally given the song some good listens on the good headphones, I can't find a bad or offensive thing about the song musically. I do think the song is very, very simple. It's impossible to hate a song like this, but it is the simplest of three of four chords over and over on the verses.

Little bits of the vocal arrangement are more interesting than the song itself or its chords.

I like the idea of things sounding different from song to song on this album, and I'm in in no position to say Brian needs to write chord progressions on the magnitude of "This Whole World" every time. But I'd say "Guess You Had to Be There" does teeter on the verge of blandness.

I think "Sail Away" is head and shoulders above anything else we've heard, and that song as well as "The Right Time" and even "Runaway Dancer" have more interesting chord changes and arrangements.

It makes me happy that AGD is happy about Runaway Dancer, but it makes me sad that he isn't happy about the other songs. This isn't Pet Sounds, but I think it will be a uniformly strong album, without any truly embarrassing moments.

I'd give it a few more spins Andrew. This has really grown on me after 3 or 4 listens. I really loved Taylor in the mix and always hoped for a lead from her on one of Brian's records. I think Kasey has a bit of Taylor in her. Super unique and instantly identifiable...maybe not... but a really good voice with a nice sense of emotion.

An aside note;
Even though country is not my thing, I checked out Kacey on itunes and NPP & GYHTBT come up so this was a really brilliant move for all involved. A LOT of people that are into Kasey are going to download this tune and probably a lot more Brian and the BB's. This album is finally outside the box of what Brian has been doing. I'm really looking forward to it after hearing this and Sail Away.

Forgot to mention that IMO this song more than any of Brian's recent work has Radio airplay potential. Not saying it will be a hit but it certainly could be because it's the kind of tune that gets in your head pretty quick.

My favorite cut so far...melody gets stuck in your head and won't escape.

Like Runaway Dancer, this one does very little for me.

Can't get enough of Sail Away, though!

With you all the way on this song. Incredible writing, lyrics, singing and arrangement going on here. Fits in very well with what I've heard so far. Total keeper!!  :woot :woot

There's a line in there which resembles the melody for "The nearer your destination the more you're slip-slidin' away…"

Funny, "auto­tune" has been replaced by "Dijon mustard" everywhere on the board. But there's a problem with that...

...Dijon mustard is actually good

I thought about using 'auto tunafish' :D

The only songs that leave me lukewarm are "On The Island" and the subject of this thread. Otherwise, all rather fine, especially "Sail Away".

I have. Not happening. Not objectionable just... mundane.

Want to hear Wild Honey in concert!!!  The over and under on hearing "Sock it to me" in my lifetime seemed small.  I was riding hope on Andre G. Doe  to flow this meaningful phrase.

Not into The Ronettes or The Crystals? Darlene Love?

Like female vocals, solo or group. But these two... don't do it for me.

I had an earworm once....all I heard was chomping..

Like "The Right Time," this is one that seems merely pleasant and enjoyable on the surface but on closer listen reveals much more depth in its harmonies and instrumentation.

I promised myself I wouldn't get my hopes too high for this new album until I heard the whole thing, but that's awfully hard to do at this point.  To my ears, everything released so far has been terrific.