The Smiley Smile Message Board

So I'm sorry to rake this subject up as I'm sure it's been done to death. I've searched through the BWPS topics and can't really find a topic specifically about this but apologies if I've missed one.

I was reading in the BWPS review section that in an interview Darian said that the 'Brian producing' footage in Beautiful Dreamer was staged and that technically he wasn't needed for the backing tracks. Firstly, did Darian actually say something to this effect? Does anyone have the interview?

I know that some people on the board are sceptical about Brian's input to BWPS, and that Darian was responisble for the choice of tracks, sequencing etc.

So my question is, what's the opinion on who was responsible for what on the album? It shouldn't bother me - I should just enjoy the album for what it is, but the thought that it's more Drian's baby than Brian's I guess niggles me a bit.

In my opinion, surely Brian and VDP are responsible for composing the new musical parts: The clarinet line to SFC, new melody to Da da etc. They must have had opinions about the sequencing of tracks, and sections within tracks (H&V for example). Presumably Darian would make suggestions but Brian and VDP must have had their own thoughts. After all, in the documentary Darian says he had to tell them to stop coming up with ideas(!) - He can't just have made this up.

Darian said he wrote some of the sections between the tracks so I'm guessing maybe the instr version of the cantina section that kicks off Section 3 is his, and the transition between heroes and plymouth rock - that kind of thing. Of course Darian would need to help Brian organise the music for a live performance, as Darian knows the abilities of the band presumably more than Brian. But I just don't believe that Brian was there merely to put his name to this and that it's largely Darian's project (maybe no-one is insinuating this and I'm jumping to conclusions).

I know this is a contentious point, and I don't want to start some board fight but any opinions or, more importantly, facts regarding this issue would be much appreciated. Thanks.

Excellent question, and one to which everyone has their own preferred answer. I've a feeling the truth - whatever it may be, from "Brian did it all" to "Brian was just there for the cameras" (both manifestly untrue, of course) - will emerge in time. Applying the methods of Sherlock Holmes to the material of Brian Wilson is, at best, an exercise in frustration and driving down dead ends.

One thing that sould be writ large across the top of this, and every other page concerning this subject - from the go-get Darian has stated many times that the material performed live and on the CD was chosen because it would work best in a live context. This is a Smile, but not the Smile.

Good point, Andrew, and might I just add that it's unlikely that a 1967 "SMiLE" would've contained ALL the musical material recorded by Brian in that era (e.g. "He Gives Speeches", etc.), without morphing into a double-LP out of necessity (which I've never seen any indication that it would have been).  As is, "BWPS" is about 47 minutes, already past the clock-in time of most '60s single-LPs.  To cram any more music on the vinyl would've downgraded the fidelity significantly. 

Craig

I think another thing worth mentioning is that Brian has always been (from what I can tell, but I'm not an expert by a long shot)... Brian has always been open to input from other people and a SMiLE in '67 likely would have included 'help' from others.  For instance on the pet sounds tapes, someone in the studio comes up with the staccato part that's so cool in "god only knows". 

Don't forget Van Dyke Parks -- he, too, was intimately involved in the creation of the album. By all reports it was an equal-parts contribution started by Darian but ultimately fuelled by Brian and Van Dyke.

..and Unicorns and Leprechauns.  ;)


There, I said it and without any real proof to boot.  I don't know anything, it just seems to me that Brian had little to do with it [in the 21st century that it] and Van Dyke did his lyrics at home and Darian is the real author/compiler of BWPS without much more input from Brian or Van Dyke than a nod that what he did was fine. On the other hand I think Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone, so....

He did?  Well there goes your credibility.  "Without any real proof to boot," for sure!

Actually, the clarinet line in "Song For Children" came from the original sessions for "Look" (If I remember correctly, this was another example of the track being wiped, but Darian was able to make out the clarinet part since the instrument bled onto another track). A good example, by the way, of the care taken with BWPS to resurrect certain musical ideas from the original sessions to maintain integrity. I believe it had been determined here on this site as well that all of the melody lines to "In Blue Hawaii" can be found in "Da Da" if one listens closely. I certainly believe that Darian and Paul Mertens orchestrated the connecting pieces, although I think all of them were written by Brian in some way during the original sessions.

As to the original question: Mark Linett stated emphatically shortly before the album's release that Brian was present and contributing ideas during the tracking sessions. The main difference between recording BWPS and any other recent album is that the idea behind BWPS was to replicate 40-year-old sessions note-for-note, sound-for-sound, an idea that Brian was probably less interested in than Darian and the rest of us were. In effect, he was forced to reproduce the product the same way he had attempted it as a 24-year-old. I'm sure he was excited about finally connecting all the pieces in the studio, but it must have been artistically restrictive at the same time.

As far as staging footage goes, the only footage I know to be staged for certain is the scene in "Beautiful Dreamer" where Darian and Brian are shown discussing the sequencing of "Wonderful", "Song For Children" etc. Producer David Leaf felt he needed to show something to represent the construction of BWPS, so he had Darian and Brian improvise the scene for the camera months after the BWPS premier in London.

So are you saying Darian composed the new stuff: The new melody to CIFOTM, SFC, Blue Hawaii? I'm not so sure. After all Darian said he was responsible for smoothing the transitions out but I don't believe he'd be comfortable writing new melodies for the smile songs. In Beautiful Dreamer, Van Dyke is showing the new melody and lyrics to Blue Hawaii (the ' hot as hell in here' bit) to Brian. This makes me think that if Brian didn't compose as much as we'd hoped then Van Dyke would compensate, but not Darian. I'm not convinced that Brian took a back seat with the new melodies though. Presumably he does still compose new songs so why not for BWPS?

That part sounds vintage 66 to me but I bought this up on the board before and I think the parts that Darian heard from a headphone bleed were actually on CIFOTM not SFC. I may be wrong butI didn't think there was any evidence that the SFC melody was vintage. It definitely feels it though.

I find these very interesting questions, who did what for BWPS - one important factor is who arranged the songs for the live performance?  I would think Darian, since he was working from old session tapes and basically replicating them, but modifying them for the maximum impact in a live show.  I'm sure Brian gave final approval on what he did, such as the Heroes sequence, and Vegetables, but if Darian arranged the stuff for the live show, once they went into the studio they were basically replicating the live show - so Brian wouldn't be needed to "produce" per se.

when it comes to the vocals, it gets more interesting - apparently Brian was trying to produce the vocals and was having problems, and Darian was called in to help, after which the vocals went down smoothly.  Was he just moral support, or did he take over the vocal production/arrangements?

It was more about Brian's initial inability to do a decent lead vocal on some of the tracks, not the overall group vocals. Darian was the only one who was going to tell Brian he needed to do better ("He gave me permission to kick his butt" or whatever Darian was quoted as saying around this time). We don't know what Brian's emotional state was during the time he attempted his first vocals, but cutting a lead for a newly composed song no one has heard before has got to be easier than trying to replicate the lead from "Surf's Up" 40 years later. I can understand why Brian would choke. I think Brian did fine in directing the recording of the backing vocals.

I thought Domenic Priore was behind the whole thing.  :p

I can't recall the specifics right now, but I remember reading that the SFC clarinet line was found on the original session tapes for "Look". I think it was suggested that it was an overdub that was wiped at one point, but could still be faintly made out. I used the phrase "another example" above because, like you said, Darian was also able to make out a previously unheard Carl vocal part for CIFOTM through the headphone bleed on another track.

Where did you hear the sequencing bit on the DVD with Brian and Darian was staged? I mean, it makes sense, but I've never heard or read that.


As far as authorship, I'd be surprised if the 'is it hot as hell' melody and lyric weren't both written by VDP, and I'd even guess that the melody in SFC and CIFOTM was partially written by VDP. They all smell like VDP with very little hints of Brian.

He helped with the sequencing for the live show, but from everything I've heard he was completely absent and non-involved in the recording of the album.

I don't think any of the participants have spoken about this specifically, but I believe it's been noted that Leaf didn't start filming his documentary until rehearsals began for the premier in London (after "SMiLE" had already been sequenced). The scene between Darian and Brian was shot in the same studio with the same lighting as some of Brian's interviews which were shot after the European "SMiLE" tour was complete. The only footage shot during the actual process of competing "SMiLE" for its live debut was done by Darian himself with his handycam; a small sequence showing the first meeting with Van Dyke Parks was included in "Beautiful Dreamer". Leaf's camera was allowed into Brian's home for the early rehearsals (which fascinatingly captured him in the depth of depression); had Leaf started filming his documentary earlier, it's logical to assume professionally shot footage would exist of that first meeting with Parks, the days spent sequencing the project, etc.

As it is, the footage of Darian and Brian looks like a recreation or something improvised for the camera to demonstrate how the two of them collaborated. Brian, not known for his great acting ability, simply states the obvious: "that comes before 'Surf's Up" (after Darian plays him a portion of "Child Is Father Of The Man").

As wonderful as "Beautiful Dreamer" is, imagine how good it could have had Leaf filmed the actual collaboration between Darian, Brian and Van Dyke and had access to the lost "Inside Pop" outtakes showing the recording of "Surf's Up" and "Cabin Essence" in 1966!

I've always thought that Brian and Darian worked together on the sequencing, although this task was probably of far more interest to Darian than it was to Brian.  Brian probably had some ideas to contribute, maybe suggesting some sequences that he was toying with in '66 (the 2nd movement was clearly in Brian's head in some form at that time).  Darian probably did most of the links, although techinically Brian did too, since most of them are little bits from H&V and Surf's Up.  I don't think that there are as many new melodies (instrumental or vocal) as people think.  The melodies from Look (the chorus melody) and DaDa were already there in '66, just not in vocal form.  Darian heard at least some of an original Child melody through headphone bleed supposedly, and Brian remembered the melody from Worms.  That pretty much just leaves the "is it hot as hell in here" melody during the Water Chant and the 2nd verse of Look as being the only really new melodes.  

As far as the production goes, maybe Brian wasn't "needed", since the band knew all the parts and nothing new was being created, but since Smile was Brian's composition in the first place, having him there in some capacity was probably beneficial.  He wrote it, so he should know best how it should sound.  Darian I'm sure was prodding him along the way, in case he lost interest, but I don't really buy the idea that the material from the recording sessions was staged in any way...seems like way too much trouble to go to just to show Brian in control.  I think that Brian is just way more comfortable producing music in a studio than he is anywhere else, and they wanted to capture that on film.  He wasn't as demanding as he used to be, but still was clearly in control.  

The vocal sessions he still seemed interested, although I'm not surprised that him doing his leads wasn't shown.  I'd imagine that was a struggle at times, since it took almost 2 months supposedly to get them all done.  I think situations like that were the times when Darian helped the most, just keeping Brian going and keeping him motivated to put his all into it.  Left to his own devices, Brian probably wouldn't have been able to complete the project and have it turn out as well as it did.  Darian did a wonderful job of steering the ship; definitely an "unsung hero" as Melinda put it.

Which one? as the melody used on BWPS an old one that had Carl singing the original?

Are you kidding? Just watch it--hardly the same "sitting around Brian's house workshopping" as the actual "Darian-cam" footage. Staged... Kind of like Jeff gathering the band for the pep talk about "we're not trying to raise smile, but just to perform an album here..." as if they needed that talk. So much of that doc was clearly for the benefit of the cameras, it was pretty off-putting, I thought. Great to have, but just too phony.  I've said this many times and stand by it: the Beach Boys need a real documentary series of everyone saying any- and everything. Not just Brian's people, not just the rosy Beach Boys story. Everyone about every album. Hell, a full DVD of Smile would be great, including old footage of Carl (such as from the IJWMFTT stuff), anything of Dennis on the matter, and new and old footage of the others.  Never happen, but it should.

Yeah, that's right Roger. And on top of the filming dates, it would be strange for Brian to rent out a studio just to sequence SMiLE.

I think the downer about that clip is that it makes it seem like Darian was the one who sequenced the 2nd Movement with Brian just going along. At least that's the impression I had gotten from it, and it could've been 100% Brian.


I really hope the Inside Pop footage becomes available someday. That's probably the 'holy grail' of unreleased SMiLE era stuff.

The doc is ok but I don't take anything some of the people involved try to promote seriously. I am not talking about Brian, Van Dyke, or Darian. I think they fairly equally brought Smile to us.

This is based on nothing but an absoilute hunch on my part, but I wouldn't at all be surprised if Darian did sequence that, and most of the rest besides. My somewhat sad guess is that Brian was more there to approve or disapprove than anything else at this stage. That isn't to take anything away from the brilliant music he wrote, but I think that 99.999% of Brian's input to BWPS was done 37 (or whatever) years earlier.

My understanding is it was just one of the original counterpoint vocals Carl layed down for the chorus of "Child, child, child, father of the man, father of the man". Apparently it was wiped at some point (not heard on bootleg versions), but Darian could make it out while listening to the original tapes of an overdub session (this original counterpoint vocal was picked up through the headphones of one of the Beach Boys). He then reportedly incorporated the original counterpoint vocal for the arrangement of the new, completed version of CIFOTM. I have no idea which part he was referring to; again, it's just one of the many vocal parts going on during that chorus, but it demonstrates an attention to detail which is admirable.

Adding to this, I would say that a lot of the sequencing is simply logical and inherent in Brian's compositions. Back in '93 I put together a version that took "Prayer" directly into "Gee" into the trumpet flourish into H & V. I also segued "Wonderful" into "Look". Why? The music seemed to demand it. The real brilliance of BWPS was in ignoring Dominic Priore's conventional wisdom (no offense intended) and sticking "Surf's Up" in the middle of the album and creating three movements. That alone makes it the ultimate fan mix for me.

I believe that over 95% of Brian's contribution (I'll leave 5% for "That sounds great" and "Could I hear that part again") - whether it be for the live presentation or the recording of the CD - was simply an exercise in karaoke.

Brian did ALL of his work on SMiLE in 1966-67; he never re-visited it again for any length of time. 2004's BWPS was the work of Darian Sahanaja, Jeff Foskett, and some Van Dyke Parks.

The way Brian's promotional team made it appear that Brian "finished" SMiLE was the best "Brian Is Back" campaign yet. And, in my view, it rendered the project a fraud.

Thanks Roger !

I remember when Brian was posting on the blueboard Jasper said "Brian, I think darian did a great job sequencing Smile" and Brian's answer was "No, I did it !"
Ok, a normal guy wouldn't say he didn't do it, but Brian even tried once to tell his wife that Van Dyke did Smile almost by himself. So I think why should he say he did it, when he didn't? And please don't come with "promotion, destroying myth, etc.". I mean we're talking about Brian Wilson, he doesn't know anything about promotion and probably gives a damn about myth...... Well, that's my point of view. I think it was a work of Brian and Darian.....

Unless Melinda (or some other manager who doesn't happen to be his wife) posted that as "Brian".

Best thing to do? Don't let David Leaf ANYWHERE near it. That Jeff speech was so obviously staged, it made me cringe. Also, I still question the wisdom of including the scene where Brian's not doing well; I appreciate the honesty (FINALLY!), but Melinda's reaction to it rubbed me the wrong way. There. I said it.

As far as what did Brian do, I will say this: I'd bet my working kidney that he came up with the "hot as hell" lyric, which is probably something he came up with spur-of-the-moment. It doesn't sound like a VDP lyric at all; if it did, it'd be more like "the sun beats down on the clown as the unicorns sip from the azure sea" or some other kind of Lewis Caroll-ish bit.

There. I said that too.

Did you copyright this ? 8)

Bwaahahahahahaha!  :lol

Sadly, I think I may end up using that in an actual song.

maybe we should start with who's idea it was to work on it in the first place...haven't read all of every post, but...I say Melinda, if that matters...to answer the original question--less than 50%, Brian probably wanted to get it done, get it out there, and move on...

kinda wonder who's idea it was to assemble a BEACH BOYS version of SMILE on iTunes ?

[edit]well, it was there a day or so ago...

Well, here's what Brian had to say on the subject, when asked the question on the blueboard (September 23, 2004):

"Darian put it in his computer and I sequenced it. Without his help it would have been hard. I am not a computer guy, but I did the sequencing. L&M Brian"

Brian has always insisted that it's really him answering these questions on his website.  You'll have to decide for yourselves whether you believe him on that one, then you'll have to decide for yourselves what value to place on this statement of his, but I just thought I'd share it for those who didn't see it back then.

Craig

Standard journalistic practice. It's the ol' "triumph-over-incredible-odds" thing: had there been no premiere on 2/20/2004, or had it gone horribly amiss, that would most likely not have been included - had there been any DVD at all, which I also severely doubt.

But didn't Van Dyke say in interviews he wrote exactly what it would seem he wrote?  He said he was writing from Brian's point of view, considering what Brian had been through over they years.  Van Dyke has many styles of writing.  None of his solo records sound alike.  He can write simple pop lyrics and melodies, or get more obtuse. 

Read the Darian interview at CrutchfieldAdvisor.com for more info on what he contributed.  I don't think any of the people involved hassle the division of labor, just some fans.  Brian did have the final say in the sequencing and intent of BWPS.  I'm sure he was asked his opinion at every stage, because the "meaning" of Smile was so important to people, for some reason.  And I'm sure it probably doesn't match up with what Brian intended in the '60s, because he can't or won't remember.  Or he had no grand scheme of how it all tied together to begin with, which might play a part in why he didn't finish it to begin with.  Brian also wrote all the original arrangements upon which it was based, and he indicated to Darian he wasn't sure it could be done live.  All Darian had to do was adapt the originals to the line-up and capabilities of Brian's band plus a small string section.  He's probably had more formal training than Brian, so it would be quicker and easier for him to do that than the Brian of any era.

What I REALLY WANT TO KNOW is, who is the guy that came up with stretching out the vocal line in "barnyard"?  On the original tapes, he goes "the cook is chopping lumber." and on the new one, he goes "the cook is chopping lum-burrrrrrrrrrr" sounds really cool.  Now that sounds like an insane person must have came up with it, so my money's on Brian Wilson. 

Well, maybe that's how it was meant to go all along.. there was never an official recording of Barnyard, just a demo.. who knows how it would've been?

That's what I'm pointing at too.  Of course, if Brian was minimally involved, who would have known?  Either Darien wrote it for him, or Brian was at least capable of coming up or remembering that part.  I'm just joking around of course, but that was really one of the coolest "Hell yeah!" moments when I first heard the new version of the album. 

Regardless of who was responsible for what in 2004, I think the important thing to remember is that Brian's input was immense from the get go due to the incredible work he put in in 1966 and 1967.

This clarinet line is one of my favourite parts to BWPS so it would be fascinating to know that it's from 66. It really sounds of the era to me, like some of the melodies Brian was writing for Pet Sounds. If you can remember where you heard the info that it's from an original Look tape, Roger, I'd appreciate it. Not that I doubt you - I'd just love to know for sure that this was an original melody.

I find everyone's input on this topic fascinating. I think it's tempting to be cynical and treat the whole thing as a fraud, just because being a Smile fan always seems to go hand in hand with frustrations and disappointments. However, I just don't buy that Brian and Van Dyke were sidemen on this and that it's 99% Darian's work. Watching the documentary you can see how passionate darian is about Smile and Brian Wilson, and how touched he is that the whole thing comes off in the 1st concerts (he's moved to tears describing Brian's reaction). I don't know the guy but you can't imagine he'd be comfortable faking Brian's involvement with this. If he loves the smile music then he'd have more vested in engaging Brian in it than faking the whole thing. It's great to learn that Brian posted that he'd sequenced it - why not believe him?

I agree that you have to accept BWPS as a presentation of the Smile music as opposed to the finished Smile. It's a chance to hear the best of the sessions as a cohesive, flowing whole, played and sung beautifully (not with the original acid-fried, spooky 60s vibe, but who could replicate that?) and with new (and old) parts added by the original composers. Best of all the whole project is steered by a guy who is a complete Smile nerd and knows  the history of the project and the current Smile nerd theories. Surely therefor BWPS was and is a dream for the Smile fan? If you accept it on these terms rather than 'this is how Brian intended it in 67' then it is a fantastic, satisfying and beautiful album.

Well, Brian's famed for saying things that are, shall we say, less than completely accurate, merely because he thinks it's what the other party wants to hear (or as a means of ending an uncomfortable situation as painlessly and rapidly as possible). Brian's Brian, y'know ?

Do I think he personally sequenced it from first "Aaaaaaahhhh" to last fade out ? No, not at all.

Do I think that Darian did a goodly degree of the spadework, presented it to Brian and Brian made corrections, suggestions and bestowed his benediction ? Absolutely.

And remember - the huge bulk of the work was done by Brian. In 1966 and 1967.

Of course I don't think he sequenced the whole thing, and imo if he'd been left to it I think he'd have paid little heed to do what was laid out in 66/67 and you'd probably find Solar System in there (maybe not a bad thing). This would be valid if he were finishing Smile, but as it's a presentation of the Smile music then I think the assistance/guidance of Darian who has knowldege of the whole story, what does and doesn't belong to the origional proposed album etc, is crucial. Personally I feel that if Brian is saying he sequenced it then that is reassuring and at least suggests that he was involved and gave thought to the sequencing.

Of course as you and others point out, a huge proportion of this is original material and that, after all is what it's about. I do find the question of authorship of the new stuff fascinating though. It's particularly interesting when Brian and VDP have remebered original lyrics and melodies i.e. worms.

On closer listening though it's easy to see that much of the 'new' melodies could easily be created from melodies within the songs. I keep going on about the clarinet line from SFC (the 'Though I know I'm won't to wondering' melody), but I've just realised that it's an adaptation of the horn line at the beginning of the original Look track. This doesn't mean it's not an original melody but just that you can see how the composer (hopefully Brian/VDP) could create a vintage sounding new melody by adapting what is already there.

That's also what appears to have happened with In Blue Hawaii as somebody else has pointed out.

The strings over the echoing pinao part to CIFOTM are also a new addition but ,to my ears, these are a variation on the Surf's Up theme - This works brilliantly over  the part from CIFOTM. Some of these new additions are so effective that it's tempting to believe they might be original but previously unrecorded parts. I suspect though that if this were the case there would have been more made of it in the documentary.

The 'easy my child' melody to CIFOTM sounds entirely new though (you can't hear it anything similar in the original sessions) and the 'Is it hot as hell' bit to Hawaii which, from the documentary looks like it was Van Dyke's creation. Who knows - there's always a danger when you disect something so much that you destroy it's beauty. Maybe I should stop wondering and just enjoy the music.

Does anyone have a copy of the old post, I forget which board it was on, regarding an early (BWPS) tracklisting that included "Time To Get Alone" and "Diamondhead"?  That story is fascinating, as well.  Who came up with this early list?  If Brian, did he simply change his mind, or did someone talk him out of this lineup?  I would like to know more about what went down early in the process.

From what I heard it was Brian who made that list. There was also "Fall breaks" on it, which of course became part of "Fire". I think he just compiled songs that were written (or parts of it) during Smile. Maybe just songs whose concept was thought up during Smile and which were recorded later.
Though I have no idea what's with "Time to get alone". Did he write that during Smile? Was it even supposed to be part of it? Wasn't there also speculation about "Saturday mornin in the city"?

Prayer/Time To Get Alone /Bicycle Rider / Link/ Diamond Head/ Worms / H&V / Holidays / Link / Old Master Painter / Sunshine / Wonderful / Link / Cabinessence / Link / Wind Chimes / Fall Breaks / Veg / Fire / Dada / Cool Cool / Workshop / Surf's Up

I was wondering the same thing. From what AGD said about Brian putting Solar System on it if left to his own devices, I can assume that this surprising list reflected Brian's wishes at one point.


If Brian actually came up with the musical idea for H&V back in 1963, then maybe putting Solar System on SMiLE wouldn't be terribly far-fetched.


Edit: AGD did not say anything about Solar System, but Buddhahat did. My bad.

One more thing: BWPS is the definitive SMiLE, until Brian makes a better one.

I don't think Brian actually had the idea for H&V that early.  I think Al probably meant that they did some of those H&V barbershop types of things in '63 (like that section after the second verse).  As for the early (BWPS) list, who knows?  Maybe Brian did keep thinking about SMiLE after it was scrapped in mid '67.  Maybe he had plans for it, but just never could get it together to finish it.  Who's to say that TTGA or Diamond Head was or wasn't intended for SMiLE at some point post summer of love.  Maybe Fall Breaks was the candle instead of the fire, and was meant to replace Fire.  That's what makes this whole saga so fascinating.  That's also what makes trying to recreate SMiLE as originally intended an impossible task.  The pieces were constantly changing, the pieces within the pieces were constantly changing.  No one, including Brian, knew how this thing was supposed to fit together.

Some months ago there was talk of a audio tape from '63 where Brian is humming the melody of "Surf's up". Are there any news about this? I kinda doubt such a tape would exist.


[quot]No one, including Brian, knew how this thing was supposed to fit together.

You know, I have a feeling that Brian back then knew exactly how it should be. And my respect for that man grows when I think about him being the only guy in the world who could have finished it. I guess he just hadn't enough time and support to finish it.
Brian of today is another story. It could be that he know how it all fits together (well BWPS fits together anyway) but it could also be that he doesn't remember.

Maybe he did exactly know how it was goihg to fit together. When you can actually assign percentages of how much is finished, you must have an idea of the whole picture.

Am I the only one who thought that a completed SMiLE would be much, much more fragmented, with the various musical themes running the whole record, even in brief snippets?

Van Dyke Parks would never, ever, ever have had anything to do with this if it had been the level of sham you suggest. He would have steered miles clear of it, if it had been a sham or a charade to resurrect Brian's career. He has far more integrity than that.

I think Jeff's involvement was minimal.

Andrew wrote:
Well, Brian's famed for saying things that are, shall we say, less than completely accurate, merely because he thinks it's what the other party wants to hear.

This is what bothers me about the Darian/Brian sequencing sessions.  Darian is a fan and was involved in Priore's book, and presumably shares some of the same preconceptions about Smile and its' sequencing as Priore.  Brian, wanting to please Darian, no doubt picked up cues from him as to how he thought it should go, and may have gone along with it "because it's what the other party wants to hear."  I don't think it's a coincidence that the Priore sequence is followed with only a couple of exceptions (Surf's Up, I Wanna Be Around/Workshop), that Wind Chimes is air, Dada is water, etc. 

The list I recall seeing was a bit longer, had at least one song included twice (aside from "Link", that is) and was most decidedly not in Brian's hand. Also, it was not a BWPS tracklisting per se, but a proposed live running order. It's a suble difference, but an important one. I understand that there were at least two proposed track orders before the one they finally settled on.

For the record, my involvement was also minimal. 

:woot

Yer absolutely right... try this instead:

Prayer/Time To Get Alone /Bicycle Rider / Link/ Diamond Head/ Worms / H&V / Holidays / Link / Old Master Painter / Sunshine / Wonderful / Link / Look/ Link / Child / Link / Cabinessence / Link / Wind Chimes / Fall Breaks / Veg / Fire / Dada / Cool Cool / Workshop / Surf's Up ... I missed a line of it on the lil'scrap of paper upon which the list is kept, waiting for the day when I finally assemble it (like I'll ever get around to it.)

But there is no way to ignore the 37 years in between the original conception of "SMiLE" and the completion of BWPS. The myth, speculation, bootlegs, Dominic Priore, the other Beach Boys and the entire music industry had an influence on how the album was completed and received. As has been stated a number of times, BWPS was a reimagining of the original sessions, not an attempt to restore or reconstruct what the original concept was. The cool thing is that it works. The new lyrics bring a whole new dimension to the material and the sequencing plays beautifully. Neither Priore nor anyone else publically proposed the second movement which is pure brilliance. "On A Holiday" was in the first movement for a while until it was decided to move it to the third. The whole "Workshop" must come after "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" theory was ignored. "Sunshine" became an unpredictably perfect intro to "Cabin Essence"; "Good Vibrations" became the surprise finale. Also, it might be pointed out, that while the third movement contains the tracks we have all associated with "The Elements", only "Mrs. O'Leary Cow" is specifically associated with an element; neither Brian, Darian nor the liner notes try to convince the listener the third movement is an "Elements Suite". BWPS is certainly influenced by the expectations built up over time, but the new twists Brian, Darian and Van Dyke put in there kept the project fresh, vital and complete.

Looking at the original proposed line-up posted above, I'm really glad the sequence mutated to what it is now; that original line-up reads more like the ordinary fan's mix tape (apart from the admittedly bizarre choices between "Prayer" and "H & V" anyway).

How about "non-existant"?

And thank you, Jon. You posted exactly what I wanted to post on the subject.

Since it was my original quote (Old Rake did not list the source), I will respond.

The BWPS CD is a note for note reproduction of the live presentation from February 2004. I have no documented proof ( I don't think we're supposed to have any), but I have to believe that Jeff Foskett had SOME input into the live presentation, therefore, would automatically give him input into the recorded version.

Also, Old Rake said that Van Dyke Parks would never, ever, ever, have anything to do with it if it was the level of sham I suggested. Just to clarify what I said - the sham was making it appear that Brian was FINISHING IT. When Van Dyke Parks saw the competency that Darian displayed upon meeting, you probably couldn't keep Van Dyke Parks away. I'm sure he was very aware of the publicity this was going to generate. 

Also, buddhat said, "I think it's tempting to be cynical and treat the whole thing as a fraud, just because being a Smile fan always seems to go hand in hand with frustrations and disappointments". No, I don't consider myself a cynic, just a realist. In my heart, I truly wished that Brian would've made a significant contribution to the production of 2004's BWPS. I simply believe that Brian's significant contribution was 3 or 4 days in the studio singing lead vocals. From what I've recently read (and observed from Brian's recent TV appearances), I don't think he's finished very much for a long, long time.

For the benefit of those that didn't read the 13 page interview with Darian at CrutchfieldAdvisor.com, I'm quoting a section here.  Specifically, on the subject of Darian working with Van Dyke Parks and Brian.  It would seem that Brian was more involved that some would claim, unless Darian isn't telling the truth (the interviewer is Lindsay Planer):

LP: What was it like working with Van Dyke Parks?

DS: Whew! Man. Well, I just saw him again last week at the CMJ panel discussion . . . anyway, he is from another era. What a gem of a human being.

LP: I always considered his aura as a 21st Century Mark Twain.

DS: Right on, totally. He is so eloquent and there again is an example of another iconoclast who was into his own thing. I was sort of worried that they [Van Dyke Parks and Brian Wilson] were both gonna be weirded out by revisiting this. Maybe they were both feeling as if they were past that point in their lives when they could no longer identify with where they were in 1967. I noticed it when they got together for the first time — well, let's be clear, he came because Brian asked him.

LP: Just like in 1967.

DS: Exactly. I found out somewhat later that Van Dyke was also very wary of what was going on. He was concerned about what was happening to their music.

LP: Because of past experience dealing with The Beach Boys' camp?

DS: Yes. But, see, you talk to him now and he is so relieved. That was a word that he used over and over when we were working. He'd say, "I have such a sense of relief . . . this is such a relief!" And I really didn't understand what he meant at the time because all I wanted to do was just to respect the integrity of what they were doing. That was my primary concern and focus. I'd sort of take notes and at that juncture, all we wanted was to perform it live.

So, my role was to try and facilitate their ideas. They wrote the notes and words and I just figured out what was feasible within the context of our band, the voices, and instrumentation. We'd review a piece or a link for instance. I'd play it from my iBook, they would hear it. Brian might hum the melody line and then the next day Van Dyke would come back with the lyrics. I never questioned if they were new or vintage. He would just come in scratching his head saying, "Here is an idea I had about this and that and how it could connect here or there."

LP: How about the lyrical tag at the end of "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow?"

DS: Now, at the time, that seemed to me to have been a brand new idea, although the concept was something that he [Van Dyke Parks] had always wanted to express. It was important to Van Dyke that this be a moment of cleansing and it was extremely important that it be the voice of Brian Wilson.

LP: There are a couple of sections and even some completed songs that were introduced as part of the SMiLE-era canon. We obviously can't say they were meant for SMiLE, since it did not tangibly exist. But for instance, why was "He Gives Speeches" left off?

DS: I have no idea. It was one of the tracks that I played to Brian and he just said "Nah, junk that, I don't want it." I didn't question it any further. I liken it to a cinematic director filming a bunch of scenes for a movie and there is going to be some stuff left on the cutting room floor. That's how I looked at it.

LP: Is the same thing true of the "rock with me Henry" lyrics to the song "Wonderful?"

DS: Again, I played that for Brian and he didn't like that either. That was probably yet another variation and a lot of the SMiLE music really is a lot a variation of themes. "Wind Chimes" has all sorts of recurring different variations — it was just where Brian's head was at the time. He sort of, without knowing it, created this new modular approach to recording with "Good Vibrations."

He just wanted to try different grooves, different instrumentation, and different tempos. It was maybe one idea and he'd go over it and over it and spend a whole day just working on a riff. Then the next day, he'd come in and work on another riff.

And it was like that for "Heroes And Villains," "Wind Chimes," and "Vega-Tables," and any host of the songs. They would cut variations of it in hopes that Brian would put it all together in a way that made sense. However, he wasn't able to do that back then.

Brian finished Smile.

We can twist around as much as we want, but the damn thing is finished.

What's more, it's finished in a better and more complete way than many would have ever hoped.

As for Brian's contributions --

Brian worked with Van and Darian to put it together. Brian presented the album live. Brian was in the studio as tracks were recorded and played keyboards.

Brian sang backup and lead vocals.

Sure, he had nothing whatsoever to do with it. Right.

No-one ever said he had nothing to do with BWPS. We're just questioning the extent of his involvement, based on what others involved have said in public. That's all.

And no, it's not finished. A version has been presented, but it can never be finished.

Since the recording of the CD was a note for note reproduction of the live presentation, what were Brian's contributions in the studio as the tracks were being recorded, if he was in fact in the studio AS THE TRACKS WERE BEING RECORDED, not after?

And what parts of what songs did Brian play keyboards on? I'm not denying that he played something, that way they can list his name on the musician's credits.

That pretty much tells the story right there, doesn't it? 

Why isn't it "finished"? I mean the original composeer and the original lyricist added elements that weren't there in all of those bootlegs right?

If Van Dyke had never been involved with the 2003 work, then I would absolutely agree with you. But bringing him in changed everything. Dramatically.

First point. I think it is an insult to Van Dyke Parks to insinuate that he was gleefully waiting for a huge payday.  Am I reading that correctly? You would think Parks would set side his integrity for the sake of getting some publicity and gain out ofBWPS? The man is the complete opposite of Mike Love. Parks has always conducted his career with the utmost integrity.  For Mike, "will it sell" is always the first notion. For Parks, that doesn't even enter into the equation.

And Brian's contribution to BWPS was it was his music. So what if he didn't do the fucking grunt work? Darian did that. I'll share a story with you that explains  my opinion on the subject.

My wife and I were fortunate enough to have spent some time with both Darian and Probyn Gregory in New Orleans after Bran's show at Jazzfest last year. (it was gumbo at the Gumbo Shop in the French Quarter, but I digress) I, of course was peppering Darian with questions about the SMiLE CD and he was happy to indulge me. Dee (who keeps pretty quiet around discussions like this) flat out asks Darian (I had been telling her about the comments over the last 2 and a half years about Brian's true involvement with the project) "what do say to those who say the CD is just Darian's fanmix?" He looked shocked as hell. Probyn then interjected, "Darian's track list might be more interesting than what we did play". Darian asks "what do you mean by 'Darian's fanmix?" I explain the rumours and the scutlebutt and the cynicism. He responds, "I was just doing what I was told. Every decision was Brian's". Darian, of course did the hard work or researching the material which he then presented to Brian, but it was ultimately Brian's decision. Nobody did it for him. It wasn't Melinda approving of the final sequencing,  it was Brian.

Very interesting thread - in fact it prompted me to register and post after lurking for awhile. For whatever it is worth (see AGD's earlier post above) in my Katrina charity call from Brian I  asked him which parts of the 2d movement were newly written (I was thinking of the melody lines in SFC and CIFOTM). He immediately answered that oh no, the 2d movement was all written back in the 60s. I then asked specifically about the melody in the verse of CIFOTM and he said that it was written in the 60s. Before I could ask anything more the conversation was over. Now who knows, maybe Brian was thinking of the chorus to Child or the basic track or whatever, but I like to think that the melody in fact was original and would have been sung by Dennis.
Also, what Darian said about uncovering Child vocals was that he could hear in the headphone bleed a whole additional layer of background vocals, not a melody line. I also remember reading about him finding the clarinet line in SFC, but I can't remember where I read it. Love this thread, keep it going.

Great story about Darian and Probyn, RobMac.

Thanks for sharing it!

Bottom line..."SMiLE" wasn't finished in the '60s.
It was finished in the 2000s.  By the same guys who started it.  Assisted by a
huge fan/musician.
It was then performed live, in its newly-finished entirety, and then recorded again
from scratch, and released.  To huge acclaim.

End of story.

OK, now you all may continue.
:)

Thanks MDC and Robmac for your posts.

It's very reasurring to hear Darian's reaction to the idea that it was his fanmix and this does lend creedence to the hope that this is predominately Brian and VDP's work imo. It's also fascinating to hear that Brian has said that the 2nd movement, melodies etc., were all already there in the 60s. Of course he may be mistaken but this does imply that these 'new' melodies could well be vintage 66/67. I agree Dennis would've sounded great singing that Child lyric!

Also, Sherrif John Stone, I didn't wish to imply that having reservations about the authenticity of BWPS automatically makes one a cynic. I have just read some very cynical posts and these have effected my perception of BWPS. I've ended up questioning the authenticity of the album which makes listening to it less of a pleasure. I have the same experience when listening to the original sessions sometimes - the 'what might have beens' cloud my enjoyment of the music. To hear that Darian inists this is predominately Brian/VDPs work is reassuring and renews my love for BWPS!!

Yes, it is re-assuring.  But then, as Mandy Rice Davis said...no, no, banish the thought!

I guess Brian and Van Dyke think that Smile may be finished, but there's no question that it would be another album in the 60s. What they finished is Smile '04 and not Smile'66/'67

One clarification ---

Andrew's in one sense wrong -- as a composition, Smile was most certainly finished by the release of BWPS.

As an album, the 1966/7 sessions cannot and will not ever be finished.

The structure of the music is done but the production is not finishable.

Keep this distinction in mind as you discuss.  It is vital.  Carry on.

Yeah, see, that goes back to what I said earlier.  Of course we got SMiLE 2004, because that’s when it was assembled for presentation to us.  Yeah, it would have been different in October, 1966.  It would have been different still in December, 1966.  And it would have been different again in April, 1967.  But it was left unfinished.  They didn’t get it done.  It really is a shame.  It would have been fantastic.  There is really nothing that can be done, 40 years later, to ‘finish’ those original recordings.  We will never hear a ‘SMiLE ’66-’67’, because it doesn’t exist (unless Brian has a ‘special’ reel of tape stashed away somewhere).  I think Brian and Van Dyke, with Darian’s help, gave us the next best thing.  I know some of you folks find the new recordings unlistenable, but I think it’s great.  Seeing Brian and the band perform this music live was, hands down, the best concert experience that I’ve ever had, and I have seen some good ones in my nearly 50 years.  That said, c’mon box set.

Is there enough material, in the opinion of those who have heard the vast majority of the 66/67 tapes, to construct what could be deemed a completed SMiLE album right now? (My definition of 'completed album' is pretty loose, but it wouldn't include the versions of songs heard on 20/20 or Surf's Up.)

No.  Too much unfinished.  Surf's Up, Do You Like Worms, etc.

I could not agree with that more. If you honestly think Van Dyke was in it for the payday or the publicity, or if it was just a matter of "wow, that Darian's pretty good, I guess let's finish it with him then" then YOU DO NOT KNOW VAN DYKE PARKS, full stop. I said it before and I'll say it again: Van Dyke Parks would NEVER have been involved with the completion of this album if it had been any kind of sham to make it seem like Brian was active again. NEVER EVER NEVER.

The whole thing was a raw wound with Van Dyke in his life. He would have not for one second revisited it unless he felt it was 100% done with purity and integrity, and that his co-writer was anything but 100% involved.

You are welcome to ask him yourself.

And further: of COURSE this album reflects the subsequent history of Smile, and of COURSE it reflects some of the stuff that Priore believed, via Darian Sahanaja. Further, it reflects just some interesting musical connections that the collaborative folks made NOW, in 2004 or whatever. And it probably also reflects some stuff from 1966 or 67 that we just weren't aware of. And there's probably a goodly chunk of stuff that Priore was just RIGHT about. Its all of the above, and its place historically necessitates that it is all of the above.

It was NOT EVER meant to be an accurate rendition of "What Smile Would Have Looked Like In 1967."

What I don't understand is why that MATTERS to people. Is it good? Is it listenable? Your milage varies, but I'd say absolutely, yes, it is. It is a listenable, coherent, cogent rendition of a composition partially written in 1966 and partially written in 2004 in the style of 1966. It is a recorded performance of "SMILE: THE COMPOSITION."

If you want to trace the album's roots historically, and absolutely that still matters to me, that's something wholly seperate from the modern album, and always should be. There's a lot we can learn from the modern Smile in terms of certain historical things -- like the vintage melody on "Worms" and the likely-vintage one on "Child" and the possibly-vintage one on "Dada," for example. But is it EXACTLY HOW IT WAS SUPPOSED TO GO BACK THEN?

Of course not. It couldn't be. It shouldn't be. It should reflect how the artists, at the time they rendered it, felt about the material.. Otherwise its not an honest album.

Fascinating topic!

One thing that I love about "BWPS" is the fact that there are a lot of references to it´s one history. For example the pirates/bootlegers on "On A Holiday" and of course Brian's prayer at the beginning of "In Blue Hawaii". Or the little links between some tracks that are a variation of other parts. I think these references are enriching the album a lot. They add another dimension. You could say that the album is not only about american history or the elements, but also about itself.

And am I the only one who thinks that the second movement was MEANT TO BE? It fits and flows so well that it's impossible for me to imagine a different order.

Did he mean it was Brian's decision to use Darian's fanmix?
 :p

By the way, one thing that bothers me about this whole discussion (generally), is that most people assume that the SEQUENCE of a SMiLE'66/67 would have been a lot better than what we have now. Of course it could be, but how do you know that? Maybe, just maybe it would have been inferior.

Imo, BWPS is finished but SMiLE remains unfinished.

I think I have to make something clear for myself. I said that Smile '66 would be different. But still I think BWPS is one of the greatest works ever. I also don't think that Smile '66 would be better, just different.
But we have to say that the hype was always about Smile '66/'67, because that album got so much promotion and didn't come out. Not Smile '71(or around that time), Smile '88 or BWPS. So when we're talking about Smile, it's the unfinished album of the 60s. BWPS is another album in a way. That's my point of view.

Yup, and furthermore: WHICH Smile would have been superior? The one from October '66? November '66? January '67? March '67? July '67? Smiley Smile? Because the conception of the album changed so much from beginning to end. Its ridiculous to assume there was a GRANDE PLAN involved back then which remained constant across the months, because it didn't. There's no "historical accuracy" regarding the lineup to follow, really, apart from vague notions, I'm sure.

(http://img489.imageshack.us/img489/8043/explodinghead3hh.gif)(http://img489.imageshack.us/img489/8043/explodinghead3hh.gif)(http://img489.imageshack.us/img489/8043/explodinghead3hh.gif)(http://img489.imageshack.us/img489/8043/explodinghead3hh.gif)

That reminds me - I must have chili for dinner tonight...

The March '67 one.

How does that one go?

"There's no "historical accuracy" regarding the lineup to follow"

Well there's the back cover track list - and I think we all believe Brian approved that list even if he didn't physically write it.  Then  there's the historical accounts of Vosse, Anderle, Williams, Siegel, and now Van Dyke and Brian.  None of these give us an exact sequence for 66/67, because the project never got that far back then, but they give us suggestions of what was talked about and planned for a 67 Smile, and we can use those accounts to highlight differences between what 67 Smile could have been versus what BWPS is.  Why do we care?  Because we're BB/Smile obsessives who like to think and speculate about these things.  Because we believe Smile and BWPS are important works of twentieth century music that reward in depth analysis and theorizing.  Because if BWPS isn't a recreation of what a 67 Smile would have been, as Brian, Darian, and others involved with it have gone on record saying, then that raises the question what WOULD a 67 Smile have been?  If Brian never knew what Smile 67 would have been like, how could he say that BWPS isn't what  is would have been like?

I think I would prefer hearing Brian and Van doing their interpretation of the album soley at the the piano rather than all of the studio recordings. I listen to the "Heroes/Barnyard/Great Shape" demo more than the sessions themselves. They're more animated.

Yes, but that was almost 40 years ago...when Brian could sing. There's a reason for the backing band to handle vocals. Brian can't. That would have been awesome, though, in 1966 or 1967. Absolutely priceless.

Yes! I absolutely love that piano demo...

I love every solo-piano demos from Brian in the 60s and part of the 70s. Though there are not that many.....

BWPS = the composition, the published version of Smile that can be covered and performed.  Smile = the production as envisioned in 1966.  I could agree with that.  But if you tell me that Brian can't finish his own compositions and call it Smile, I have a bone to pick with you.

Ummmmm... no we don't. When Peter showed it to Brian for the first time, BW declared he'd never seen it before. And in this instance, I believe him.

Also this list doesn't claim to be the final oder I believe.

It strains credibility to think that the album producer wouldn't be required to sign off on the back cover track list before it was finished by the art department.  I for one do not believe Brian never saw the back cover (which has the list).  If he dictated the list and someone else (Carl) wrote it down, maybe he never did see the written list - but that doesn't mean he didn't come up with it and/or approve it.

Brian not remembering something I can certainly believe.

The track list is a historical artifact that gives us one lineup, at a particular moment in time, of the Smile album.  I never said it gave us the sequence, if you read my post I specifically note that point.

Has BWPS made any "best albums ever" list yet? Has it been performed as a "cantata" by anyone anywhere?

The cd was cute, but it was just a curious recorded by the original composer 35 years after the fact.

Many years ago, I went to the local record store and spotted an album titled "Golden Greats Of The Sixties". I couldn't believe how many great songs were packaged together on one album. It had a shiny album cover, 17 great songs, and a budget price - this was a no-brainer. I quickly purchased the album and sped home to play it.

When I first started playing the album, I noticed that something was wrong. The songs were the same, in fact, they were well recorded. The notes, arrangements, and instruments were all the same. Even the lyrics were the same. But the singers sounded differently; not only differently but not as good. What was going on here!

I picked up the album cover, and on the back, near the bottom, in small print, it said "These are new stereo recordings performed by the original artists". What!?

Now I was really mad. I felt that I had been taken. Why would somebody do something like this, and who is to blame? Was it the artist (or the artist's wife), or was it the record company. At first I blamed the record company who put this sham together. Is the record company excused because they included the disclaimer about the "new" recordings?

Then I got mad at the artist(s). Why would an artist with any pride do this. Was their recording career at such a dead end that they had to re-record their own songs? Were they so obsessed with the money that they would cash in like this? What artistic merit did they gain from this? The real art was found in the original productions. Didn't they have enough respect for the original recordings to leave them be? Then I noticed that all of the artists on the album were has-beens, and I felt kind of sorry for them. I guess we all do questionable things when we are desperate.

Needless to say, I didn't listen to "Golden Greats Of The Sixties" very much. I don't care for "new stereo recordings performed by the original artists". When I want to hear the real versions, I'll put on the original recordings, the way the songs were originally intended to sound, with the original vocals, with the original backing tracks, with the original vibe, and even with the original scratches and tape hiss.

I have a three-disc 60s compilation from like 10 years ago that had "new stereo recordings".. THIRTY YEARS AFTER THE FACT!!! Ugh.

There's some Ronnettes stuff like that.

Go to metacritic.com -  It's the best reviewed album of the past several years based on their formula for averaging out major reviews

I don't particularly like it. It sounds like three medleys of Smile music strung superficially together without any big idea behind it, and if you read Darian's description of how it was put together in the tour programme, that 's more or less how it went down. I guess that's why you still partially obsess about the historical facts, even though the answers are probably lost forever.

Søren

Those collections exist because the artists don't own the rights to their own material.  Sometimes the old masters, too, are held back by the original owners and all that exists are the rerecordings.  For example, many of Spector's records were held out of rerelease, so the Ronettes would have no choice but to rerecord if they wanted to get their old music out.  Many artists have these types of collections, even people like Johnny Cash.  You sometimes have to look very carefully to determine if it's released on the original record label, which will usually tip you off if it's a redo or not.  Some don't even give that much info on the CD or record cover.  I don't consider what Brian did to be anything like that.  For starters, it's called "Brian Wilson Presents Smile," so there is no misrepresentation, you know what it is when you buy it.  Secondly, there is no "Smile"!  Except for bootlegs.  It was never released.   If you don't happen to care for BWPS, fine.  But you can't compare it to labels that put out old hit records and don't give you what you were expecting.

When you locate the original recordings of Smile with the original vocals and backing tracks, please let us know, K? A few of us would like to hear it too.

Thank you for realizing that my post was a comparison to BWPS. I was getting worried that people thought I was merely expessing my disdain for re-recorded oldies compilations. That wasn't the main point. Neither was the one you made that I referenced above.

My main point was that I consider BWPS to be merely a re-recording of old Beach Boys' songs, not done as well as the originals, and with the major motivation being to salvage a failed solo recording career, and the minor motivation being TO CASH IN on Brian's previous work. Is nothing sacred?

And Ian, if you're looking for original (is this a matter of semantics?) SMiLE era recordings, there's about a half an hour of them on the boxed set - CD 2.

Aw, come on. It's Friday night (didn't Dennis sing that?), the board is usually dead over the weekend (should that be in the Pet Peeve thread?), I was listening to some Syd (R.I.P.), some posters commented that they were enjoying the thread, so I thought I'd write a little something. I didn't think it was that bad...

No.

It's too soon for someone else to perform it yet.  And I DID see it in a Top 10 list recently:  Top 10 albums to take on family road trips (criteria: music that crosses generational appeal, that mom and dad (and grandpa) can listen to and enjoy as well as the teenagers).

If you hear no big idea behind it, I guess that's fine, but I couldn't hear ANY big ideas behind Smile until I heard the 2004 version.  Now I do hear a superstructure not available to me before.  My thoughts are posted on an essay on this site.

Yeah--mine!      :D

Is that an excerpt from the hours of unfinished studio tapes from the original Smile sessions I have had since 1989?

How would I know? They're YOUR tapes, not mine. You asked me about original recordings and I referenced where you could hear them, at least officially released ones.

In your opinion, Ian, on CD 2 from the boxed set, how unfinished was "Our Prayer", "Heroes And Villains", "Cabinessence", "Wonderful", "Wind Chimes", "Vegetables", "Surf's Up", and "Good Vibrations"?
 

Good Vibrations was released.
For the rest, as unfinished as the rough versions of Pet Sounds material on Disc 3 of the box set. A good outline, but unfinished.
Imagine if those were the only PS tapes you had heard, they'd sound pretty "finished", right? Brian's never finished till he releases something.

I guess no one buys me when I've said that I've been told by former 1960s Capitol art directors, one of them SMiLE's art director George Osaka, that no artwork and printed material went without review and approval by the album's producer.  Whether Brian remembers it or not or was holding the pencil which wrote the list, it would not have been accepted or acted on without Brian's review and approval and more than once in this case judging by the existing proof.

I'd like to see any proof of a date on the list or proof too, I'm betting [a donut] it is actually from March '67 though December '66 is also a good possibility.

Ok so he approved the tracklist on the back of the proposed sleeve but didn't it include the proviso "see record for correct playing order". Therefore Brian's approval of this sequence doesn't mean he had any intentions that the tracks would run in that order.

Edit: Oops I see you're talking about the lineup, not the sequence.

Sherrif John Stone, I don't agree with your comparison. Firstly I think if you perceive BWPS to be a replacement for the original sessions, then you're always going to be disappointed - although beautifully produced it obviously doesn't have the same magic sound, BB vocals etc. Neither Darian, Brian or VDP ever presented BWPS as the definitive Smile but merely a chance to organise the best of the sessions into a cohesive whole. To do this successfully meant that the music had to be unified with ideas and structure, missing gaps had to be filled in with lyrics and melody (and wow, how great is it to hear Worms with the missing vintage parts?). The result for me, is a fantastic opportunity to listen to the fragmented music created in 66/67 as a flowing piece, instead of organising the sessions into my own dubiously constructed fanmix. Don't get me wrong - I love listening to the original sessions in this way and regularly do. Therfore I view BWPS as a companion to the sessions and a crucial element to the Smile experience, rather than a last word that inevitably falls short. I think part of the beauty of the original sessions is their unfinished state too - they're like a musical Venus De Milo (excuse the pretension). The listener fills in the gaps and imagines a finished album in 67 that would have been more beautiful than any other music in history. To finish the music limits this potential, and so to call BWPS the finished Smile is always going to cause problems for people, me included. To suggest it's a sham or a fake though seems particularly unfair and, I think, misunderstands the intentions of those who created it.

Buddha, you got it. Very fair and objective assessment.

Cheers Spaceman!

Another thought I just had about Brian's involvement:

Why should Darian film/record these writting sessions with the famous "Darian-cam" if he did it all the work alone??!!?!? Why should he tape himself? Using the camera only makes sense if he was recording the idea-exchange between Brian and Van Dyke (and Darian), so that he could do his job as "musical secretary".

Really hope you get what I try to express.

What happened to all that footage I wonder?  That would make a great DVD, all the out-takes of the BWPS collaboration and Inside Pop.

You would probably just see some feet or an elbow most of the time, when it came to the stuff being filmed with the "Darian-cam".

Søren

I don't think anybody said that Darian did it all alone, no doubt Brian was involved, it's more about the degree of his involvement and how much he was up to it.

Søren

If I remember correctly there were some voices saying that they thought it was Darian's work and Brian just said "yes".

Give me a C, a bouncy C. I've been in this town, da da da dee dee dee ...

I thought it was C#.  (ducks)

Right but I'm one of those who think the existing info shows SMiLE was an album of 12 distinct tracks with fade outs where the significance of sequence of those tracks is different then in BWPS. That note does not mean the track order would necessarily be different in mind.

To finish the music limits this potential, and so to call BWPS the finished Smile is always going to cause problems for people, me included.

Bingo! Hallelujah! Thank you! You just made my point for me.

Wasn't it BRIAN who stated in every interview concerning BWPS, "After 37 years, we finished it". And yes, that caused problems for me. It actually ruined BWPS for me because of the respect I have for the original 1966-67 work.

I won't elaborate on the feelings I have for the 1966-67 Smile sessions. Everybody on this board probably has similar feelings. But I meant it when I rhetorically asked "Is nothing sacred?" And Luther corrected responded "No". Maybe I hold that music as too sacred, along with the contributions of Mike, Carl, Dennis, and Al.

When it was first announced that Brian and company was going to perform Smile live in 2004, I was ecstatic, just like everybody else. It was great that Brian was able to deal with  all the "issues" surrounding Smile. And it was especially great that the public would now get a listen to all of this fabulous music. Everything was positive.

I had no problem with the Smile being presented as a live piece. I found Jeff Foskett's statement in Beautiful Dreamer quite sincere, about not wanting to recreate Smile, but to do the best live presentation possible. I viewed this more as a tribute to Smile, not FINISHING Smile. Whatever sequence/configuration they came up with would've been OK. It was just a concert. Yeah, we probably would've still debated the sequence, but the chosen sequence (and lead vocals) would not have been etched in stone.

Then, somebody, probably Melinda, or David Leaf, or a combination of people, came up with the idea of recording and releasing BWPS, and everything changed for me. I didn't question Brian's right to record BWPS, I questioned the motives behind the decision.

I'm not going to rehash my feelings on BWPS, you can read the previous posts. But I will say that everytime Brian appeared on TV or in print, and he said (and I'm paraphrasing) -  We FINISHED Smile. We added this and that. Darian did this and that.  Van Dyke did this and that. Now it's a rock opera. My wife thought it was time. I thought it was time for the public to hear it. I didn't think people were ready for it. I couldn't believe how much people liked it... - I just shook my head in disgust. So, you finished it, Brian? YOU, the Brian Wilson of 2004, finished it? OK, whatever.

I have a bad habit of repeating myself, so I will say again - I respect Brian's right to do whatever he wants with his music. He is/was the artist. And to quote the late Dennis Wilson, "Hey, he can do whatever he wants". I just wish he would've chosen to not re-record the music, and proclaim it as the finished document. You're right, Luther. Nothing is sacred anymore. What happened with the Smile music is proof of that...

Smile is two things -- a composition that is published with a publishing company and a production done by a specific band at a specific time. Both were left unfinished in 1967.  He most definitely finished to his satisfaction the composition in 2004, but there is no way to finish the 1967 recordings.  Clearly when Brian says "Smile is finished" he means the former.  Why is this so hard to understand?

I don't understand it for one.  When they started work on Smile, it was to be a live presentation of Smile material, with links to make it a continuous live performance.  It was not in any way supposed to be a "finishing" of Smile, of the compositional material from 1967 - it was an "adaptation" of that material for a live performance.

But after the fact, it became a "Smile is finished" - meaning Brian and Van Dyke completed their work from 1967, at least that's what the words mean to me.  But that's not what BWPS is, it was not in any way meant to be a completion of the work as it was intended to be in 67, but yet that's what is implied in Brian's and others' comments.

I think that Smile was whatever hazy musical vision Brian had in his head around 66/67 and that was what people was also obsessed with before Smile 04 came out,  the completed version sounds more like some of the Smile music strung together with the purpose of a live performance, so I don't know if Brian finished Smile, meaning his original ideas for that music, it's more like he got it out of the way.

Søren

If you started to write a book, got sidetracked, came back to you notes years later, and finished the book, you would say you finished the book.  Not a version of the book, or a variation on it, but the book itself.  The only difference in music is that we have two things to consider -- the form of the composition, and the recorded specific version.  Brian can't finish the latter but he can do the former.  The ONLY reason people are objecting is that they have his notes and are making judgments based upon their opinions of those notes (which aren't public knowledge).

And Bicyclerider -- why can't it be this?  When they STARTED, they only wanted to make a live version.  But halfway through it, they realized that they were basically completing what they had started 37 years before.

There is a clear line, in fact, between the two.  When it was just Brian and Darian, they were making a version for a live performance.  The moment that VDP stepped into the picture, the possibility of finishing the composition for real entered the realm of possibility.

Yes, in a very formal sense, but if you also told that you didn't really remember, what you wanted to do originally, then I think you could question how finished it really was.

Søren

Didn't seem to bother Stephen King when he re-wrote parts of The Gunslinger because the original novel no longer fit what he decided 30 years later was the actual ending of the Dark Tower.

I think you have to add a third thing, which is the condition of the author, or, in the case of music, the condition of the composer.

When you're talking about  music, when you're talking about a 37 year time span, and especially when you're talking about Brian Wilson, you can't consider enough the physical, emotional, and spiritual state of the composer.

Because I love Brian's work and wish him the best, I have tried to be sensitive in not addressing his emotional state and remaining talent while "finishing" BWPS. But Brian's condition is a huge factor in determining the legitimacy of his contributions.

Don't know the story of The Gunslinger, but it also seems that King had an original version from which he worked. Brian doesn't really seem to remember what his original ideas were and there also seems to be some missing pieces, like the Air element which he apparently didn't finish. That's why you get the impression, also from hearing the music,  that Smile 04 is really the music, that was recorded  before Brian left the project, strung together for a live performance, not really a finishing of his original ideas. Of course Brian has every right to do that, but when you know the story, questions like these are bound to arise.

Søren

But as you said, Brian has every right to do that. Because he's the creator. If he says this is it and it's finished, that's it, even though we know it could have been more or better. I do think it's comparable to authors finishing their work years later. It's also comparable to classical composers, the old masters, finishing their work years later, many of them having gone through all kinds of turmoil in the meantime. Their final product might have been different had they completed the work much earlier, too. But it is what it is. We know what Smile might have been, but it's not our place to second-guess the artist. The artist gets the final say.

If only that were true -- it would have been better.  But King had no idea where the story was going until he wrote the last three books.  That's why he had to partially re-write the Gunslinger.  I can fault him for his decisions (and do) but it was his decisions and his ability to say, "It's done."

And we aren't in Brian's life, so it's not for us to say he's too unhealthy to create.  That's condescending IMO.

I'm happy if Brian is brought happiness by BWPS but I'm still very cynical about the method and especially about the disregard for and dissing of his BB bandmates. 

OK, now the dissing and disregard I hear you on.  Very classless of Brian.

It's still a different thing. Brian wasn't following his muse, he was told by his wife and manager that it was time to finish Smile and you can also question to what degree it was actually his work or the work of Darian.

It's a completely different scanario, apparently King was in the process of writing those books and then decides to rewrite the beginning, that's not the case with Smile.

Søren

Darian cam: Its been stated that the camcorder was used with the intention of recording audio, so that Darian could go back and listen to conversations he and Brian had. So for the most part it isn't even pointing at them, or it is just placed on a table vaguely looking at them...therefore the idea that the footage could be used on a DVD is not viable.

However, I suppose it would be interesting to listen in to the converations, but remember they were private conversations between Darian and Brian...one would presume however that if Darian himself basically pieced SMiLE together then he wouldn't need to refer back to conversations he'd had with Brian...

Is SMiLE finished?

Darian has said that in the beginning of the process to resurrect SMiLE, Brian sometimes had to be coaxed. So Darian would say, "we're not completing an LP here, we are presenting the music of SMiLE in a live concert". That put Brian at rest, made him more able to tackle the emotions involved in working on the project again.

AS things went on, it seems that Brian and VDP decided that what we ended up with (BWPS) *is* a finished SMiLE. But Brian fully accepts that it is not the same SMiLE we might have had in 1967 had he completed it then. He's gone on record as saying because he's happier and in a better emotional place these days, that BWPS is more "up" than a 1967/68 SMiLE would have been.

But...he has on several occasions said that he and VDP finished SMiLE...with help from Darian. But he freely admits it's not the SMiLE we might have had in the 60's.

What Brian and Van Dyke and Darian "finished" was an extended suite or medley of Smile songs designed and composed with live performance in mind (the links and transitions).  They did not IMO finish "SMile" (the original 67 album, which, as Cam pointed out and I agree with, would have had separate tracks, fade outs, etc., with a different lineup and different structure to some of the songs) although the new contributions by Van Dyke and Brian distract some into thinking that.  It certainly made better press to present BWPS as the completion of

Perhaps what Brian really meant with "SMile is finished" is "I'm finished with Smile."  ::)

I left out  " as the completion of the beach boys' unfinished 67 psychedelic masterpiece rather than just a medley of Smile songs performed live."

I give up.  No one here seems to get the diff between a composition and a production.  A song and an album.

How do you know?  Were you there?  Do you have notes?  How do any of us know what happened beyond a few comments on session tapes and testimony from interviews (which you are discounting as you see fit)?  The point is, none of us know exactly what happened, and to dismiss a masterpiece composition (which does production-wise pale with the original production) based upon such ill-founded opinions is annoying as heck.  Brian wrote the songs, he can finish them however he wants.  Then the BB versions should be kept separate as productions.

It sure as hell bothered me, esp. the ending. I'm not going to spoil it for anyone, but it REALLY pissed me off; I guess being hit by that truck messed up more than we think.

Didn't that just SUCK????  I hated it too.  But you must admit -- it was his right as creator to do what the heck he wanted with his series, including trash it.  That's all I am saying.  He can trash it in his writing, and I can pan it in any review I offer.

Exactly.

Technically, yes, it was a composition (or a bunch of songs projected for the next album, doesn't matter) started in 1966 and finished in 2004.

Subjectively, I don't like BWPS (on a musical level) and the whole multimedia project (and the PR blitz) feels like David Leaf trying AGAIN to prove that Brian never needed the other Beach Boys. Or they didn't deserve him. Whatever.

So am I - for the excellent reason that, when I asked someone who would know (and I mean, really, really, really know), that's what they told me - single album, banded tracks, no crossfades or segues (except within one title). And this was maybe four, five years ago. That's why I've never taken Brian's statements that "we had it all back in the day, the first two movements" at all seriously. Remember, this is the guy who, if you look out the window and say the sky's green with McDonald tartan stripes will, nine times out of ten, agree with you just to be amenable.

Andrew, keep in mind Peter Reum's claim.  Once Smile was out there, people began sharing things that they had been sitting on for years as secrets.  Peter claims that Brian told him in 1981 that Smile was to be a three movement piece as conceived, a la (in Brian's way of thinking) Rhapsody in Blue.  Make of that what you will.  Peter is no liar.  For my money, I see the initial concept (in summer 1966) as a three movement (or some type of movement structure) edited down to a 12 track list by December because there was no practical way to make a 3 movement piece on an LP.

And that's cool -- you don't have to LIKE it to realize that it is Brian's final word on the subject.

Wouldn't dream of even hinting that Peter is a liar - he's way too fine  ahuman being for that. I don't doubt for one second that he's reporting exactly what Brian told him. I'm sure that Brian did think of it as a piece in three movements, just as he originally thought of it as Dumb Angel. Then the moment passed, just as the 24-hour telescope shop did.

OK, my tuppence.....

How much input did Brian have? THe brief was to prepare SMiLE for a set of live performances. Darian and Brian got together and they went through what was there. Darian asked where things went, Brian answered as best he could remember. Sometimes he has a very good memory, other times not so good. Van Dyke got involved and the project moved up a gear so that songs that were unfinished were finished - some by the addition of the original unused lyrics, others by new ones. The Blue Hawaii lines are new and would not have been anything like that back in 67. Darian helped with some linking stuff following the structures and melodies that were already there.

SO - Brian wrote all the music and there were guidleines in the vaults for all the basic tracks and most of the vocals. All it needed was stitching together in an order that worked and the finishing touches.

Having done the shows to an incredible response the obvious move was to record what they had, and the album is a pretty straight version of the live show.

For me as a thirty year plus BB fan all of this was better than the second coming (I'm not christian so that one would be a bit of a shock) - and just as unexpected.

The very existence of BWPS is a miracle. If you don't like it fair enough, but you can't be much of a Beach Boys fan, as it's the nearest we are ever going to get to hearing what it might have sounded like back then, as we will never know.

Some people don't know when its Christmas in Beach Boy land. What do you want? A magic copy of the finished SMiLE to appear and validate your lives? NOT going to happen. BWPS is what we have and if you asked any fan in the 1980's or 1990's if that was a possibility they would have laughed in your face. Be happy with what we have.

Did anybody save that post and if so could you repost it?

I think this rehashing is interestng f the latecomers. Yes, Brian did tell me in 1981 that Smile was meant to be 3 movements. Two were sequenced in 1966. The Elements was not fully conceptualized or done, and Brian did not finish it. I think that what happened is that the Boys voted Brian down on the movements concept, and Carl submitted an album list on December 10, 1966 to Capitol based on the BBs vote.

I think that there were some serious fights after the concept of movements got voted down, and I think Brian began a slow but steady decline into amphetamine dependence and eventual psychosis afterward. I think he never recovered from the shock of losing control of his group, and that is why, in my opinion, he never finished another album for The Beach Boys alone after that. He did work on songs, but really did not finish most of them either.

Smile as released is the original concept, and the 12 track album in December 1966 was but a shadow of Brian's vision.

The same thing happened to John Fogerty with CCR on Mardi Gras (?), and he never cut anything with CCR after that either.

Put that in yer pipe and smoke it, hater latecomers.
Thank you, Peter.

I read it.  It's King's book to end how he sees fit; it made sense to me.  He even warned you not to read the ending if you were going to take it that way! Lol. 

I feel like I, or somebody, has smoked something.    :p

Well from what you tell, it seems like two different scenarios. I don't see I'm discounting anything, there's just so many contradicting and vague accounts about what happened, that you have to look at it from all angles. I'm not trying to dismiss anything and if it's a masterpiece it will stand on it's own and it won't matter what I or anybody else says about how it came to be. I don't personally think it's a masterpiece composition and that may be something I don't get. I still think it sounds pretty fragmented and unfinished, and this whole going into how it was made, is really just an attempt of trying to explain or make sense of that fact. I never disputed Brian's right to do whatever he wants to and he doesn't owe me or anybody else any masterpieces, he's still one of the greatest, but of course I have an opinion about the music and what happened.

Søren

So therefore, we can conclude --

*BWPS is not what Smile would've been had it been completed in '66/'67, but at the same time:
*BWPS is Brian's vision of a finished Smile

Interesting.. very interesting.

Aegir: yes, you actually summed it up perfectly.


The original concept, yes. The identical lineup? Nope.

Much as I hate to dispute anything Mr. Reum says, let me throw this out there:

Brian mentioned to Peter that Smiile was going to be in three movements.  Did he say in 1981 that the first two movements were sequenced?  Because this is the first I've heard this.  He's said in numerous recent interviews that the first two movements of BWPS were "done," and that the third had to be created anew, but this is demonstrably false, as in the second movement Child and Look/song for children were not completed in 66-67 but new lyrics and melody lines were created to complete it.  So perhaps what Brian was saying was that the concept for the first two movements were done, but not exactly what would go in them or in what sequence.  So I would echo what Jon said, he may have gone back to the original concept of movements, but that doesn't mean BWPS is the same as what a 67 Smile would have been, including sequencing, song choice, whether link tracks would be used or fade outs, etc.

Those months when Brian, the band, Van Dyke and the posse were devoted for the next big qalbum (Smile) were scrutinized to death. Whatever 'big event' that ocurred, like Mike bitching about how Pet Sounds was intended as a one-off album and then the group projects would be more commercial is well documented. Whatever ressentments Brian and Van Dyke had about Carl, Mike, Al and Dennis was vented in the press during BWPS promotion.

That's why I doubt that there ever was a big definitive turning point as a group vote about Smile's structure. Why would Brian fail to mention it in recent interviews? He even said that Dennis f***ed their wives, I don't think he's afraid to tell all.  ;D

He could have forgotten about a group vote, but this would raise a whole new view about everything discussed in this thread.

Then how do we explain Carl's list?

a) Brian would eventually finish the master, look at the printed sleeves with this absurd track-list and have a laugh with his kid brother about his little prank.  :-D

b) Carl had an evil plan where Brian would look at all those printed sleeves and finally go along with Carl's desire to have a 12 track Smile. Then it would sell three million copies and Carl would be lauded as the one who saved the day making up that list behind Brian's back.

c) Brian dictated the list to Carl and eventually forgot about it.

It literally couldn't have been, as it incorporates not only new material, but also ideas based on subsequent speculation. Not that there's anything wrong with that whatsoever.

My theory is that when Brian refers to two movements as being "done," he's talking about two movements being essentially sequenced in his head, or the loose ideas of them were sequenced in his head years ago. I think those two movements are likely "The Elements" and whatever you want to call the "Americana" movement -- the "Barnyard Suite" or whatever. I think he probably had some idea of how those were all going to fit together, and I'm not sure we got EXACTLY what they would have gone like, but I think we got something very similar to it.

The one that was sequenced subsequently was the middle movement, and we know from Darian's commentary that the connection between "Wonderful," "Look" and "Child" were realized only when the songs were placed next to each other on the computer and they realized how similar the basslines were. I imagine that based on the "Child" connection with Surf's Up, that song was added as well.

Brian has stated that the blueprint for the first two movements was safely locked in his head for 36 years.

I take that to mean that he, and only he, would have known pretty much which pieces of the musical jigsaw to put together to make the first two movements.

The real key to this mystery is gone forever.  Brian and VDP were writing together in summer 1966.  The first Smile session proper was in October, bypassing a (lost) May H&V session and a few scattered August sessions (and GV natch).  What did Smile look like in August before recording started?  What had they done before they hit the studio?  Give me a tape from that period (or keep the May H&V tape from being wiped) and we will learn something.  My guess is that the concept was already reduced from its original scope even that early on.  Don't forget that Smile existed in a form lost to us prior to any studio sessions.

I don't see any problem with Carl carrying out the wishes of a majority of the shareholders in American Entertainment. The majority heard Brian's proposal for three movements, nixed it, and directed Carl, (who was already the person who did the footwork with Capitol after the Pet Sounds debacle) to submit a 12 track album. Brian may have even tried to go along in seeing his contemplated masterpiece sliced and diced. That doesn't mean he wasn't devastated. For the first time, the rest of the Band had rejected a creative idea of his in a major way. I see the rest of his time with Smile as a creative collapse, and a growing amphetamine dependence, with rapid psychosis developing.

The idea Jon posited seems the most logical to me. He had a couple of movements tentatively sequenced in his head, and they went out the window when the band took over Smile and turned it into a 12 track album of songs.

Smiley Smile was Brian's passive aggressive response- a creative but fragmented statement showing the band what their vote had created.

This is and always was a family business, and the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one. The Beach Boys, in their vote, nixed the idea of a cantata or rock opera, or whatever you want to call it. They had not gotten accurate sales figures from Capitol on Pet Sounds, which we now know was a strategy to pressure Brian into more surf and summer music instead of "art rock."

This what Brian always meant when he said "we got too far out on that music-it wasn't going to sell." That's what the Band told him when they voted to reject Smile. My guess is that Murry had a lot to offer to sway the vote, as he hated Good Vibrations. There is no wonder those later vocal sessions in December were so contentious.

Seeing as all the scholars are weighing in, here's my two cents for the 33 1/3rd time:

For a piece that was finished in 2003-04, why is there already such a mystery (flames appropriately fanned) about who did what?   Are we supposed to think everyone's lying so soon after about how much Brian really did just to make Brian feel better?  Or to sell records?  Was there a second gunman on the grassy knoll?  Did men really land on the moon?  Who shot JR? Holy guacamole...

Clearly some things Brian remembered and/or rediscovered; Brian Van Dyke and Darian had some new ideas (i.e. the salon orchestra Cantina reprise in  IIGS); some outside help worked on it and suggested ideas too, just like Pet Sounds.   What's that got to do with the price of rice, right?

The finished CD and DVD performance work as a composition and a performance, and that's all that ultimately matters. Many prefer the live DVD over the CD, and that's a valid choice.  Either way I consider* the finished "Smile" a work of genius, even if  it was somewhat finished by committee - it was a talented committee, which included the original authors.   Let's see how time treats it, bet money that it will hold up.  In the meantime, watch what happens when you play it for people who don't know the backstory - like your children.    Do they bop along to it or tune out?  Most likely the former.   End of that story.  That said, the backstory is fascinating, and thanks to other enthusiasts and the people on this Board I made it a point to search out the 66-67 tapes.  They are a necessary companion  if you're a student of the music, showing how ahead of its time that music was, and how close it was to completion  (or how far).  So much thanks for that discussion -- but can we lose the revisionism?  It's just as tedious when Serious Rock Critics do it (i.e., is Sgt. Pepper genius?  Crap?  Inferior to [insert favorite LP title]?  Tune in next week for the answer).   And I'm as guilty of it as anyone else.   So do as I say, not as I do.  That is all.  Lather, rinse, repeat...

*But who cares what I think?

I almost agree with Peter, except:


I think if anybody turned the album into a 12-track album of songs, it was Brian. Sure, it might've been as a RESULT of pressures from the group, but I think it might very well have been about time constraints and the pressure to finish the album that led him to pare down his original concept out of pure necessity. The date is looming? Crap, what's finished. Can we turn that into 12 songs? Okay, sure, we make Vegetables its own song, maybe Wind Chimes too -- throw "Great Shape" in there as its own thing -- uh lessee, Look isn't finished enough, I don't know what to do with Holidays, those are out. Old Master Painter? That's its own track. And so on.

I think its real likely the track listing we have is a result of Brian sitting down with Carl or whoever and hashing out a logical way to finish something that was unfinishable at that point in time. And the NEED to pare down is probably what cost Brian his enthusiasm.


I think its just as equally likely a) Brian's attempt to make a "fun album" a la "Beach Boys Party" through the haze of LSD *OR* b) a reflection of Brian's fragmentary mental state that he actually saw this as an aesthetic choice rather than an attack on the boys.

*I* think his passive aggressive response was to subsequently pour his true creative energy into Redwood rather than the Beach Boys. I think *THAT* was Brian's f-you to the group.

Do you think there was a group vote or are you certain there was one? This is conjecture.


Where is the evidence that the 12 track plan ever got started? The Nov/ Dec unfinished tracks were left lying on the shelf and Brian moved his amphetamine-ridden attention to hours and hours of Heroes & Villains. We can rationalize that the band "resisted" and Brian half-heartedly tried to finish another hit single to "show them", but it was Brian's show all the way. If Carl & Co. had taken over Smile would have been finished in January.

The point I'm making is it didn't even NEED to get started. If Brian had wanted to, and Im' pretty sure he ended up NOT wanting to, but if he'd wanted to, he coulda finished the 12 tracks in a matter of weeks, or even really *days* -- which I think is probably WHY the list was concocted, no matter who concocted it.

Given the status of the songs on that list, it was a clearly a "what's most finished" list.

Dancing Bear, Peter has been involved with the inner circle.  He has spoken at great length to all of the individuals involved.  He therefore has access to information not published in interviews, which I believe he's saving for a book someday.  What he is sharing is from those discussions.  It is not conjecture.  If Peter is posting it, he is posting something that someone at some point in the inner circle said.  Not saying it's the gospel, but it is better than the vague "something happened" that most books are stuck with. 

Well, I just have a crazy thought, sorry, but if it's true that the others voted him down to make a 12-track album, is it possible that he, not wanting to let so much of his great music being layed aside, tried to put it all into "Heroes & villains"? I mean he really began working his ass off on that song in from January on and put fragmenst into that song that were "own" songs before, like "great shape" and "Barnyard" I believe.
I guess this will be proven wrong in just the next post (or the first to answer on this) but I just started thinking about it and didn't look at any tracklists and dates. So, forgive me....

I consider Peter a gentleman and I apologize if I was disrespectful to him.

If this voting event was described to him by someone in the inner circle or Brian himself, he'll have no problems saying so. If it's info he's keeping for his book, fine. It's all good.

Peter, I refrained from mentioning this before, even when you were criticising me for supposedly leading an interviewee and lecturing me on how to ask open questions to get reliable answers, but the way I remember your account of this exchange you asked what I thought were leading questions and got responses in line with premises in your questions.  Maybe it's just me, I didn't save the post, if someone did please post it.  Do you think that is a possibility at all?

Regardless, Brian is always a question as to his reliability and 1981 seems like it might have not been a good year for reliability in Brian's life. 

On the other hand, inspite of any  possible leading and reliability issue, his answers could still be his true recollection.

Is there any other evidence for these proposed pre-list movements?  Or this proposed vote.

imo Brian's more reliable before the second Landy-years than during or after them. It seems his mind got really damaged in those years....

Isn't it easier just to listen to the music?

Exactly. Who cares how much Brian was involved? Does it really matter? How is your life going to change if Brian Wilson wasn't 100% involved in the creation of SMiLE. Just listen to it. It's a work of genius. It's above and beyond almost everything that's out there. It's over a year after it's release and I still listen to it. The SMiLE music belongs to Brian Wilson. But the SMiLE arrangments were a collabrative effort between Brian, Darian and Van Dyke. I would love to go to my local record store and see this (http://rateyourmusic.com/album_images/s13346.jpg) but I can't so I have Brian's version instead and I can live with that.

Hell yeah.

Sometimes just listening to the music is the hardest thing to do, actually.

My 10 month old son seems to light up when I put this on. He starts jumping up and down to H&V and really starts grinnning and bouncing during the Who Ran the Iron Horse bit of Cabinessence - he even slaps the speaker like a bongo!

I believe too that this recording will stand the test of time and show up increasingly on dubious best of lists. It's already in the book '1000 albums you should hear before you die' btw. Somebody posted asking if it was in any top 100 lists so thought this might be worth mentioning.

Gimme The Beach Boys
And free my soul
I wanna get lost
In your rock & roll
And drift away...  :listening

I would echo Cam's request for confirmation or more information about there being a voting down of the movement version of Smile.  Certainly Al and Mike would recollect such a crucial point in Smile's genesis/destruction, and yet they've never mentioned it in interviews.  Perhaps someone could ask them?  Peter, do you have a source for this vote or is this supposition based on what Brian has said about originally conceiving three movements?  Which is fine if that's what it is.

I think the notion that Carl and the boys could finish the 12 tracks on their own after "taking control" of Smile after a vote is mistaken - Carl and the boys couldn't even finish it in 1972 when they had a lot of money riding on their finishing it.  They were nowhere near that point musically in 1967.

One more thing:

Today I was sent a lengthy essay "MacAndrew" once wrote about the meaning of Hawaii in SMiLE. Reading it again, it reminded me how much thought and care was put into SMiLE, both in 1966/67 and 2003/04:

The whole spiritual-rebirth-theme that Van Dyke is expressing with "In Blue Hawaii"; the hawaiian queen Lili'uokalani, mentioned in "On A Holiday", who once wrote a song which lyrics amazingly resemble "Wonderful"; the idea of the pirates as synonym for the bootlegers; mentioning a "wholly holy cow" as a mirror/yang to Mrs O'Learys Cow etc etc etc.....

I think it's almost an insult to say that Brian, Van Dyke and Darian just randomly put some songs together for a flowing live-show.

Good point, JR - there's an authenticity to this album that is not accidental.  The lyrical connotation and denotation is too well-crafted (as you've noted), and the music's flow is never jarring to these ears.  It sustains common motifs through each movement, e.g., reflection/discovery, joy/lamentation, comedy/tragedy, and is treated in a tasteful manner (at the very least, "tasteful" in a relative sense to this day and age, for the keyboard naysayers).  All said and done, the album works and one would be hard-pressed to find a chink in its collective aesthetic.

The family dynamics centered around the family business and Brian wanting to take the BBs into fm album rock, which he correctly realized was the next thing to happen in radio. The BBs were stuck in am singles mode. Brian went along out of family duty, feeling he was no longer trusted. After the session on 12/6/66, they met on 12/7 or 12/8, with the BBs rejecting Brian's movement concept for a more conservative, 12 track conventional lp concept. This was submitted to Capitol on 12/10/66, and Smile as a rock opera or cantata was dead.

Brian began working on a 12 track album, when he got told he had to do a single. The rest of the Era we call Smile was essentially a search for that single. Brian's mental state, already fragile, deteriorated rapidly after 12/10/66. Carl took that list to Capitol, but he was not a rebel. His suggestion was probably the 12 track album. But make no mistake about it, Brian stopped having complete control after that meeting in December 1966, and never was the same. He was deeply addicted to amphetamines by January 1967.

Does this comment make anyone else wish even more we had those Inside Pop reels....?

12/15 would be an interesting date to eavesdrop in on if what Peter is saying is true.

What was his intention for all those fades for all those titles recorded after PS but before 12/7-8/66 I wonder?

So then, really, by the time Derek Taylor wrote that piece saying SMiLE was "scrapped", it'd really been dead for months, really. Interesting.


Ha! Ya know for the longest time I thought Dobie Gray WAS singing "Beach Boys" as opposed to  "Beat Boys".

What fades do we know are Brian Wilson mono mixed-fades and which are acetates-in-progress (i.e. faded for convenience possibly) or Mark Linett-mixed fades?  It was my understanding that the only real BW mono mix of any Smile track we have was for H&V as released on the twofer.

Judging by the session logs, the songs that Brian may have recorded fades for before 12/7 or 12/8 would be Cabinessence, Child, Worms, Holidays and Wind Chimes.  Heroes probably didn't have a fade yet, the end of Wonderful isn't really a fade, and the ends of other songs could have been intended for crossfades.  Maybe he intended crossfades for some of the other titles like Worms and Holidays also, and maybe Cabinessence was meant to end one of the movements with a fade out.  Or it might even be as simple as Brian didn't know which songs were going to end up closing out movements, so he recorded fades for a bunch of them just in case.  Always more questions it seems...although I totally believe what Peter has been saying.  Makes a lot of sense to me.

They are mostly (as with Barnyard, Worms, Vegetables, etc) Brian Wilson-created fades.

And Cam, just because Peter is talking suite does NOT mean that he means a suite that is identical to the one released. Do the songs necessarily have to run together to be a "suite?" They could have simply been songs grouped into themes -- much like the suites on "After Bathing At Baxters" or something. I think suite or no suite, the fades were meant to be fades.

THERE IS LITERALLY NO WAY that BWPS is an identical rendering of EXACTLY how Smile would have gone in 1966. I think if anybody is clinging to that idea, and I'm not saying anybody is, that they have to let it go.

And, to restate the obvious, we know that Brian would go home after the studio with a collection of acetates and was continually playing them in a different order. By the time he stopped work it is by no means likely he had any sort of finished order, merely a set of tracks, some of which had an obvious thematic and musical link that could be placed together - even if some of the order of parts within songs themselves still needed to be worked out - and others which really were of themselves.

Surely part of the recoginised problem was that Brian had lost the will and the facility to finish what he had started, hence the decision to stop.

37 years later he puts the pieces together in an order that works. There could have been many ways in which it would have differed back in 67 - in fact in any given week there would probably have been at least 7 ways it could be put together.

It is what it is, the only version we are ever going to have that can claim to have been assembled by the people that wrote it, albeit with the benefit of hindsight, Darian and pro-tunes!

It's always the same, you solve a mystery and people debate what sort of mystery it could be if someone has actually managed to solve it, and is it the right answer anyway. They want their mystery back!

There is a monster in Loch Ness that could do with photographing anyone has the time.....

Or, like King said to end the Gunslinger, the real story is in the journey, not the destination.  Once the album's done and released, it lost a little magic and of course never lived up to the 40 years it sat on a shelf. 

Jon, we are talking about what Brian said which was "Yeah, I wanted to do a long piece with 3 movements like the Rhapsody in Blue that would take up an album."  [http://vandykeparks.com/miscfiles/opensky.html].  So 3 movements of individual tracks with fades is not inconsistent with a 12 track album, I guess since virtually anything could be called a movement, but is that consistent with a long piece like RIB?  Does RIB really have 3 movements, are there fades? I'm just wondering what other evidence there is besides this one mention by Brian.

I'm also interested in the evidence for this meeting; I noticed it has gone from conjecture to fact. 

Rhaphsody in Blue does not have multiple movements.  It's a concerto in one movement, with a continuous score.

Brian's such a mess sometimes, you can't ever figure out what he's saying.... on one hand he said Rhapsody in Blue has 3 movements, but if you look at it again, he doesn't necessarily mean that... he could have just meant he wanted something that had similar themeatic repetition like rhapsody in blue, and his would be a long piece with 3 movements that take up an album. 

I think these are very good points. What's amazing (perhaps unique) about Smile is that the 'the album that might have been' is different for every listener to the incomplete 66/67 sessions. It's a fantasy album and as such is a very personal experience for fans of the sessions. Therefore, putting a lid on Smile, which Brian and VDP have every right to do, threatens the existence of this fantasy 67 Smile and will cause such a debate - Is BWPS the finished Smile?

I posted earlier that I have problems with people saying Smile is finished and that this is not what Brian et al set out to do, but as somebody's pointed out, Brian is saying they've finished Smile with BWPS. I think that's ok. I believe it is a conclusion to Smile - what further developments could there be regarding the original composers organising and adding to the Smile material? Compositionally, they will do no more with this. Even if they had some assistance, you can't deny their right to alter and 'finish' their own work. Now, like it or not, BWPS is part of the story of Smile - but it doesn't negate the possibilities of what a Smile 67 may have been. That amazing music still exists in a parallel universe. Evidence may arise that gives a clearer picture of Brian and Van Dyke's intentions, the box set may be released, but that won't minimise the achievements of BWPS imo.

So I think Smile 67, Smile 72 and Smile 04 can all exist without cancelling each other out. I think BWPS is stunning. I put it on after a break recently (Some of the doubts raised on this board had given me concerns about it's 'autheticity' and diluted my obsession somewhat) and it took me by surprise just how amazing this is - not just the old stuff but the new stuff too, like the pirate rap that Old Rake expressed appreciation for. And as J Rauch commented, there is a lot of thought behind the new lyrics and concepts that give it credibility above and beyond it just being a presentation of the original music.

Cam, until you can say you have unreleased interviews with every band member and many inner circle folks as well, you won't have the right to call this sort of thing "conjecture".  "Conjecture" means that you jump from known to unknown by a leap of logic or intuition.  You are filling in the gaps.  Peter is reporting his understanding from discussions with the principals who have told him what they wouldn't have told a newspaper reporter.  Just because he doesn't cite a book we all would have read (and had we read it the debate wouldn't have existed) doesn't mean that his view is conjecture.  It just doesn't have evidence we have access to.  BUT it is the only explanation I have seen that fits the evidence we DO have access to.  No explanation of the known facts has ever satisfied me as much as this has.  Certainly "they all loved Smile and hated to see Brian junk it" never came close to satisfying me.

OK, time to stop my usual pussyfooting.

The person I asked about how Smile - the original, 1966 version, just to make this totally clear -  was going to be structured was Van Dyke Parks, and his reply was that it was going to be a single disc of banded (i.e seperate) tracks with no segues and crossfades between them. He then added that the only crossfades and/or segues were going to be within one track, and that track was "The Elements".  He also denied that "H&V" was in any way concerned with Viet Nam.

This exchange took place five, six years ago.

Kittyfooting ?  :thud

I think the filter needs tweaking.

I think the fact that Peter is prepared to stand up here, in public, and say what he has, removes much of the conjecture. Speaking as one of considerably lesser eminence in this particular field, I'm very careful about what I state as fact as, legal considerations aside, my ego doesn't take kindly to others pointing and shouting "wrong !".

Peter called it conjecture in his first post: "I think that what happened is that the Boys voted Brian down on the movements concept...".  Maybe speculation or supposition would be a better word?

The later posts state it as fact which implies evidence rather than thought process; I'm just wondering which it is.


To each his own they say.

The same way as they are sequenced now in fact?

What seems odd to me is that the group had been notified around the 3rd of December that they were the best vocal of '66 in NME [NME] and GV had earned Disc & Music Echo's Silver Platter in England while in the US GV, with movements, had been #2 for 3 weeks and was headed to #1 on the 10th [Billboard].

That doesn't meant that the BB liked it.  Based upon their reactions I hear on the first live shows of it, their feelings were not one of amazement over the great sounds that they were hearing.  I could easily see them thinking that they got lucky (not to mention that Mike wrote all the lyrics which made it more palatable).

Peter Reum stated that THE GROUP vetoed the idea of the 3 movement opera/cantata - or however you want to refer to it - and elected to go with the standard 12 separate tracks.

But somebody else made the point (correctly, I believe) that a 3 movement opera would not fit in a two-sided album format. This theory is easier to accept.

It is common sense that Brian and Van Dyke Parks were familiar with the constraints of the album/lp format. They had to know, from the start, how many minutes and how many songs would fit on one side of an album. Knowing that 3 movements WOULD NOT fit on 2 sides- simply math and logistics, 2 doesn't go into 3, unless you mess with lineup, but that would compromise the art  - why would they even start with the idea?

Yeah, three movements would go into 2 sides
side one:  movements 1 and 2
side two: movement 3

This sort of spliltting of a work happened all the time in classical music records.

Yes, it could've been laid out the way you displayed above, but I again raise the question about the available minutes.

If the total album was between 45-47 minutes (using BWPS as the template - I know it's not absolutely the way Brian would've made it 67-67), it's reasonable to say that Movements 1 and 2 would've clocked in at around 30 minutes combined.  Would've 30 minutes fit on one side of an album? I ask because I don't really know.  And also, would Brian and VDP (and the record company) be happy with the lopsidedness?

Pet Sounds was the band's longest album at that time and that clocked in at about 35.35 total.

In purely technical terms, yes, you could fit 30 minutes of music on one side of an LP - if it was folk, or acoustic, not the kind of dense compositions Brian was producing. The fidelity loss towards the end of the side would be catastrophic, something Brian would have been well aware of. I don't doubt for a minute that he'd originally envisaged a 3 movement piece, but my opinion - and it is just that - would be that he rapidly canned it as being unworkable in the strict technical sense.

Double post. Rats :shrug

If you have 12 banded tracks, even if they're arranged thematically, they're very much able to fit on two sides, even if one of the movements needs to get divided in two.

I'm am as certain as can be that certain tracks on Smile were meant to fade out or come to a definite conclusion -- "Heroes and Villains" was unequivocally going to fade -- it fades in virtually all incarnations, beginning with a version that likely ended with "Barnyard" (which fades) and ending with the single version. Cabinessence obviously fades. Worms fades. Child comes to a conclusion. Wonderful is up in the air. Wind Chimes fades. Vegetables has multiple fades recorded for it. Surf's Up fades, most likely -- I guess we're not sure, but I'll bank money on it. Fire comes to a definite conclusion.

No tracks were recorded to link songs together, and the songs were not structured so as to readily provide for easy linking, which is why Darian and Van Dyke and Brian had to write new linking material and/or restructure the songs to allow for linking, i.e. stripping off the fades.

However, its obvious that at least SOME of the songs are grouped thematically. Right? I mean, for years we had the "Americana" and "Elements" thing pegged, at least kinda. There's a lotta songs about old-timey Americana, and there's a lotta songs about The Elements, or pieces we think are connected with "The Elements." Then there's just some other songs about other stuff -- "Child," "Wonderful," "Surf's Up" -- that can all be kinda grouped together. Right? I mean, right?

From those thematic groupings, we can assume one of two things:

- either Brian and Van Dyke were just coincidentally writing about similar topics across groupings of songs without having any direct aim in mind OR

- they were deliberately grouping songs together.

Either way, we end up with groupings of songs, and I can see it very likely that it probably occurred to them -- "Hey, we have a lotta songs about old-timey America. We should put them together."

I don't know why that's so hard to fathom for some people! -- its not like the songs are unconnected at all, they are definitely connected both thematically and occasionally melodically.

Can you imagine trying to fit 30 minutes onto one side, and one of the songs is 'cabinessence' ?  All of that stuff behind 'who ran' would turn to mud.  I can imagine how crappy that would sound with the grooves thin.  Yuck.  (not saying they were trying to do that, just saying they wouldn't have).

I think the point in question is that, according to what Peter reported what Brian said in 1981, the original concept was three movements, that is three long, continuous pieces of music per BWPS. 12 tracks was the norm back then. No problem there. BWPS in 1967 ? I'm seriously dubious it could have been done, at least in a technical sense.

People in this thread tend to focus on the artistic side of things and forget that American Entertainment was a BUSINESS employing an entire family. These 3 brothers, their cousin, and Al were all sustained by a recording contract and personal appearances. Their father and mother published their songs.

Brian was fairly avant garde in his commercial instincts, and also SOLD records. What I love about Jules Siegel's piece from 1968 is he recognizes this immediately. He tals about GENIUSES, people who are hip, avant garde, and who sell records.

Brian had an idea. He wanted to take the Beach Boys into fm album recording. He saw it coming, correctly intuited that albums would be the new sales vehicle for music in the late 60s, and did Pet Sounds.

He came up with an idea to do an album on humor and music to God. He called it Dumb Angel. He conceived it in movements. He engaged Van Dyke Parks to help write lyrics. Van Dyke introduced the idea of a theme of moving across America from Plymouth Rock to Hawaii. The theme of Americana was born.

Brian was deeply concerned with his family and how they interacted. He saw the insanity first hand and recognized it as such. He also was impressed by how some families could function "normally" and be loving, and how some were like his...he saw how from generation to generation these things get passed down He wanted to change his family's manner of interacting...in his generation. He wanted his kids to grow up feeling loved unconditionally. This is how Cycle of Life came into creation.

The Third Movement was more troublesome, and how to express that feeling of Spiritual Searching and thirst quenching was more difficult. There is a reason it was not done. In early December buildings burned down in Hollywood, and in Brian's amphetamine addicted mind, that meant he felt he was screwing with primal spiritual forces he had no business screwing with. Scratch the Elements.

Brian has told me and Domenic Priore there were movements. He told me three. he told Domenic there were two. That would make sense if he scratched the Elements. That Van Dyke would not necessarily know possible sequences is plausible. Brian as a producer often kept these options close to himself for fear of his ideas being copied. I don't think he mistrusted Van, but I don't think he trusted some others that Van knew.

The business meetings were not recorded. The votes are in the memories of those who were there. Several people have described the meetings of American Entertainment to me as "brutal." Those same people describe the meetings after Pet Sounds did not supposedly "sell" as "especially brutal." There was a struggle for the direction of the family BUSINESS. Brian lost.

Brian then, as a family business member, tried to go on as best he could, feeling untrusted, unsupported, and isolated. Whether those feelings were what actually happened, they were HIS perceptions and HIS reality, and he acted on them. The Beach Boys did not realize the seriousness of his addiction, his growing untreated bipolar illness, or his sensitivity to their "minor course corrections" they thought they had instituted. Brian saw them as a coup d'etat.

As time went on, Brian's condition worsened. As do many families, they thought by going along (smoking hash with him) they could modify his behavior. Thousands of families do this every day. The result was more addled confusion, and a stoner's insider album, Smiley Smile.

Brian, slowly getting more and more addicted, gave up trying to work with The Beach Boys because they got more and more demanding, and controlling, which is also characteristic of addicted families. When they tried to control his output, he tried to produce Redwood. They cut him off financially, from using AEI money to produce acts outside the BBs, and Brian in turn stopped working on Wild Honey, including several works in progress, like Can't Wait Too Long and Cool Cool Water. Carl stepped in and helped finish the album, possibly with Bruce.

Brian got over his snit, came back to try one more album with the group, Friends (which is why it is titled that title), and actually did a few tracks, with Carl again finishing what Brian left undone.

By this time Brian has cross addicted to cocaine, and had MUCH less of an attention span. His ability to focus was impaired, and hsi ability to concentrate was shot. He broke down, and was insttutionalized. The psychotropics began. He was misdiagnosed as schizophrenic when he was in fact Type 2 bipolar (schizoaffective).

From there, things went down the toilet, because Brian would not stay on the meds he was prescribed, rightly perceiving they were not helping. Instead, he would go out and score cocaine, which would let him feel normal for 30 minutes until the feeling went away.  Brian correctly got the reputation of not being  able to finish anything. This is because when the cocaine wore off the horrible, crippling feelings of depression returned. That's where Til I Die came from.

Dylan often had sides close to 30 minutes, even with the "dense" music of Highway 61 and Bringing It All Back Home.  It certainly could be done, but there is no doubt sound quality would suffer on the last track.

But we're assuming that the "movements" and tracks and sequence are the same as BWPS, and I'm still not convinced that even if there WERE movements planned and tentatively sequenced in Brian's mind, that those movements and sequences would be the same.  Movement two could have been shorter, for example (no Surf's Up, with Surf's Up taking GV place at the end of side 2, just as one example of a way the movements could work on a 2 sided LP).

Peter - thanks for that great post.

I don't necessarily believe that the movments contemplated in 1966 by Brian are those of 2004 Smile. I believe the Smile of 1966 was designed to be a studio creation.

The Smile as finished in 2004 is obviously designed for live performance, and as such, is far closer to Rhapsody in Blue than 1966 Smile would have been as modified by The BBs. I think Brian rewound his idea to pre BB input, and redid Smile in 2004 according to his original idea, not necessarily his original sequence. I think he HAD to do this psychologically to reown the concept and the album as HIS, before the BBs nixed the concept of movements and Carl proposed 12 tracks....

Peter.  Thanks again for your time in posting. You sum it all up very well.  For people with the never ending need to find more info regarding how much input Brian really had in BWPS, I feel we've never hit hard enough on Darian instead of Brian.  We can try tirelessly to contact Brian and his friends about the 2004 project, but isn't there more in depth talk with Darian to see what he has to say.  I wonder if time will permit him to speak total truth on what happened.  He's an intelligent guy who I'd not have a problem believing if asked the right questions.  Maybe he was told not to indulge too much info to outside sources on how much Brian did, but maybe down the road it will be easiler.

I'd alos like to hear what Paul von Mertens has to say. He had a huge role in the orchestration of PetSounds (as did Bob Lizik and Jim Hines on the rhythm parts), and he had a significant role in BWPS too.

I have the feeling that Darian knows a lot but will say only a little. I think his ability to be discrete in the midst of all this is one of the things that leads Brian to trust him.

Now that some of the issues about Smi,e 66 are clearing up, I'll try to address Darian. He is a man who saw his function as therapeutic, that is part of a therapeutic milieu, a TEAM designed to help Brian.

When you work as part of a therapeutic treatment team, which is what Smile 2004 was about, a project outcome and who did what is secondary to the OUTCOME of the therapy. The designated outcome for Bran's therapeutic milieu is his improvement to a maximal degree given his acknowledged mental illness, and with luck, a GREAT album as well.

Darian functioned, for lack of a better term, as a Music Therapist for the period of Smile 2004's rebirth. He did not function as a collaborator so much as a facilitator, providing a safe therapeutic environmment for Brian to REOWN and finish Smile.

It could not have succeeded had they told Brian he was finishing Smile 1966. The Beach Boys had "perverted" that Smile in Brian's mind and heart. His beloved music had to be reclaimed through a new medium, live performance.

Darian served as a mirror, idea generator, friend, secretary, and mess cleaner upper. This requires suspension of EGO, and allowing the process to flow and govern itself, with occasional adjustments or jumpstarts. Darian, a humble man, was perfect.

I can tell you all that this is the way psychotherapy functions in an ideal manner, as long as the patient WANTS to work and change. Brian did, but it was terrifying for him. He is emotionally VERY STRONG. He came through.

Smile 2004 was a artistic triumph because the people Brian needed on his therapeutic TEAM put their EGOS aside and all worked for the same outcome. Darian's role as that of almost a Music Therapist, was critical. I doubt if he will say too much ore publically. Just as therapists do not discuss case details openly, I doubt he will either. But if he ever wants a job as a Music Therapist, I'd hire him in a New York minute.  

 

Peter,
   Thank you for that extremely concise encapsulation of the BWPS story.That's the closest to making the most sense of anything I've seen written.Excellent piece of  work Peter.
Brian

I agree, Nathan. Darian is THE man who would know. But, in the world of rock and roll, and especially Brian Wilson, you can never REALLY be sure. Here's a hypothetical:

Just say the (late, great) Syd Barrett moved next door to you. And every day he ignored your casual wave or "Good morning". And you observed that his garden was really a mess of weeds, rodents, and bugs. And his famous bike was actually parked on the back porch, rusting away, rarely used.

Now, a rock journalist is writing an article about Syd, and gets permission from Syd's family to contact you for an interview. When he asks about the Syd you observed, are you going to tell the truth? Or would you say "Oh, yeah, Syd, a real friendly guy. He's an excellent gardener, you know. And he's in good shape, has his own bike that he rides, just like his song". To be honest, that's probably what I would say.

Before I tie this in to Darian, let me say that Darian is a true hero in Brian's story. I have nothing but praise for his work with Brian.  I don't know him, obviously, but he appears to be a down to earth, open, friendly, and HONEST man. I do not question his integrity in any way. But...

When somebody is interviewing Darian about his work with Brian, he has to be very aware of the consequences of what he says. Remember, Darian was/is a fan, and he knows all about Tony Asher, Don Was, Joe Thomas, and Andy Paley. Maybe Darian measures his words, maybe there are details he leaves out, and should leave out. There are things that are none of our business. Maybe he's protective of Brian. I know I would be.

Darian isn't going to say to himself, "Gee, I think I'll ruin my relationship with Brian Wilson and tell this journalist everything I know". Now, before somebody responds that Darian's interviews are better than Joe Blow's opinion on the Smiley Smile message board - yes, of course they are. And before somebody accuses me of insulting or questioning Darian's integrity - no, I'm not. What I'm saying is that you can't always believe everything you read, no matter who the source is. There is nothing wrong with taking EVERYTHING into consideration and forming your OWN opinion. Basically, isn't that what we all do, unless you base your opinion entirely on what has been written.

In other words: discount what people say, and just make up your opinion based on nothing whatsoever.

Did you actually READ what I said. Obviously not. If you did, you would read the following quote, "There is nothing wrong with taking EVERYTHING into consideration and forming your OWN opinion".

Did you see the word "EVERYTHING"? I even put it in all capitals! If you did, then why would you respond "just make up your opinion based on nothing whatsoever"?

Do you have any quotes from anyone involved in the making of Smile 2004 that claims that had nothing to do with its construction save signing off on it and that Darian did all of the work alone?  What sources are there for that?  All sources involved say that Brian was an integral part.  Cynicism and expectations from previous letdowns are the only sources I can see saying that this was a hack job.  If you believe it is instead of the sources saying otherwise, what part of "everything" are you believing?  Objective evidence or cynic outsiders?

i definitely disagree with the opinion, but that sounds like objective evidence too, to me.



Like has been said previously, Brian is responsible for over 90% of the input of BWPS based on his writing alone. Brian actively remembered some old melodies, put them to sequence and called VDP for help finishing some of the unfinished stuff.

I'm happy to agree with the statement from Brian's camp which is to say that Brian did most of the work but it would NOT have happened without Darian and his trusty computer.   They haven't ever denied Darian's enormous contributions and I personally believe that once again, Peter had a nice summation of the general events above.  I feel lucky that SMiLE 04 happened and appreciate the many pieces of the puzzle that happened to fall into place to make it happen like Brian meeting Darian and the rest of his ensemble along with the Stockholm strings to having Van Dyke agree to rejoin etc etc.  Its seems too difficult to really happen, but it did. And to Brian's credit, everything that happened didn't fall on their front porch step. Melinda and Brian worked and pushed for these things to happen and the result was very good.

You would be a fool to deny Darian's key role or to claim that Brian did it all with Darian as secretary.  But some want to claim that Brian was told by management to finish Smile (gee, like that hadn't ever happened before -- sure made Brian do it then....) and so Brian foisted the task on Darian who did it all and then sent the travesty out on the road. 

My point is this -- there is no external objective evidence that says that Brian was a potted plant in this process, unless you hold previous disasters against him and assume the worst.  Every objective source claims Brian as a full creative partner in a 3 way process of him, VDP and Darian.  To see the evidence and still say that he is the pawn of Melinda and David Leaf is to ignore the facts for a negative picture based solely upon cynical conjecture.  It also ignores that the finished composition is amazing (even if there are some occasional arrangement/production flaws due to some decisions that Brian and co. made.), which a bastardized product would not have been.  It far exceeded what I was expecting, and I had heard all of the fragments used to make the final version before 2003.  To say that there wasn't some genius work in knitting the pieces together is to be numb to an amazing work IMO.

I think there are many intelligent, fair-minded observers - they won't post here, and who could blame them - who are familiar with Brian's years from 1967-1975, are familiar with the damage done by Landy, have heard Imagination and GIOMH, have seen Brian's recent interviews on TV and in print, AND have read Darian's and VDP's interviews - and could still have reservations about Brian's input to BWPS. Reservations, that's all.

That is what I mean by considering "everything". Some people can call their opinions foolish, ignorant, and cynical. I'm going to respect their opinions. For those who feel the other way, I'll respect their opinions too.

...and who do not, presumably, know Brian personally, nor were they at any point privvy to first-hand witness to the creative process during the creation of Smile. In other words, they are speculating. In other other words, they really know nothing more than your average person other than being "familiar" with things. They are familiar with things and have done a lot of reading. Which makes them qualified to comment how, exactly?

This "everything" you are taking into consideration -- you're weighing the actual first-hand accounts of the participants and other band members who were present at various stages of the creative process as somehow LESS IMPORTANT than the words of these fans and speculators? Do I have that right?

You must be doing, to come to the conclusions you have, especially Van Dyke's, in your eyes, cynical reasons for participating.

Or else you are saying that Darian, Probyn, Paul M., and Jeff are flat out lying to perpetuate the deception of a coherent Brian Wilson.  Not to mention the Hollywood job in making Brian Wilson appear more lucid than he has in 37 years in the BD doc, regardless of what you think of it as a movie.  The cynical approach needs to be explicit -- people who believe that believe that all parties involved are deceptive and lying, at least those saying that Brian was a creator (and that includes those I listed above, as well as VDP).  Quite a conspiracy, that.

Again, not discounting the input of the others in the process.  But to remove Brian totally from the 2003 process of creation and to say that this is nothing more than Brian's Back 2004 is to basically call the whole lot of them liars.

Darian has too much integrity. He would not have agreed to set his own musical career aside to basically serve Brian's vision if it was the sham that Stone thinks it is.

Argue till you're blue in the face, but that's fact, bud.

Almost right. I wouldn't say that I weigh the first-hand accounts as LESS IMPORTANT, but I don't give them the weight that you and some others do.

It's back to beating the proverbial dead horse again, but, since you asked, here you go...

In 1976, I witnessed the "Brian Is Back" campaign. There were so many people coming forward, credible people, band members, engineers, family members, journalists, people of character (so I thought), and they were all proclaiming that Brian was indeed "back". Well, now we know that he really wasn't back. Were those people lying. No, they weren't lying. I'm sure those people were well intentioned, and said what they thought Brian's fans wanted to hear.

Now, fast forward to 2004. Do I think the people in question today (circa 2003-04) were/are lying. No I don't. But here is my point, hopefully for the last time, again.

The people who know or work with Brian have something to lose, and that is their relationship with Brian. I'm not the first person to make this point. I have seen and read about many people in Brian's circle who are worried about losing their relationship with Brian. Maybe they want to stay as a collaborator. Maybe they want to stay in the band. Maybe they want to be recognized in liner notes. Maybe they just want to get a Christmas card from Brian. Does that mean that they would lie to preserve that relationship? Hopefully not. Does it mean that they could leave details out, exaggerate other details, and be very careful to make sure that Brian looks good? Possibly. Or in some cases, depending on the source, probably. Am I calling them liars? No, I am not. And I'm definitely not calling Darian or VDP liars. I just feel they fall into that category of people who are well-intentioned, don't want to offend Brian, and only want the best for Brian. Their opinions can't be considered objective. Because of their relationship with Brian, they have to be considered subjective.

This is nothing new. It happens, not just in rock & roll, not just with BW, but with life in general. People are careful to cover each others' backs. That's not always a bad thing. Sometimes it's almost like a mutual admiration society. Be nice, be positive, give credit. It's better than being negative, and sometimes, better than being brutally honest.

The reason I advocate people forming their own opinions (you can call it speculation if you like), is because I don't see the merits of pitting quotes against quotes. You might post a quote of Darian saying, "Brian contributed heavily to the completion of BWPS". Then I would respond with David Anderle and Ginger Blake's quotes that, "This isn't the real Brian, today. The old Brian is gone". And then you'd post a Peter Reum quote that Brian told him something in 1981. And then I'd dig out a quote saying that Brian was close to being institutionalized in 1981. And on and on. It just turns into a battle of quotes, like there has to be a winner and a loser. Besides, I like to read/hear others' OPINIONS. I really don't care if they have a quote to back it up. If I don't agree with, I'll just dismiss it and move on. I actually enjoy reading your opinions, Old Rake, even though you probably disagree with everything I just wrote...

I wonder if that too contributed to SMiLE being scrapped. Or maybe it would've came out as a double album...?


Well, let's see what happens when Darian's Disney commitment is over; if he returns, or maybe "comes clean" about what "really" happened (in quotes because none of us know the truth except those who were there). 

I happen to think the truth is somewhere in the middle, but maybe that's just me.

I will say this, though...BD rubbed me the wrong way, esp. Melinda's reaction to Brian's condition during the early stages.

This is sort of like the old days, where we theorize away and then riff evidence.

If Dumb Angel was the RIB-like "movement" period Brian erroneously suggested [or not depending on your adherence to whether RIB has movements] it would have been short lived indeed it seems to me and dumped well before the proposed December vote of the Boys. 

With Frank Holmes memory of when he was brought into the project tied to his beginning studies at Otis and with the help of Otis' registrar he has put it at within a week or few of mid-September and Dumb Angel was already past and SMiLE was already begun when Frank came on-board.  Frank wasn't sure but thought Van Dyke and Brian had started together within a few weeks of that, Don Richardson [VDP scholar] said he thought VDP had started around July 4, I've asked Van Dyke a few [?] years ago and he said then he may come into possession soon of material that might answer that question.  Haven't followed up, haven't heard anything from anyone else either does anyone know if that info became available?

Point being, recording of tracks had barely begun when DA became SMiLE by September and therefore BB vocals/invovement had not really begun [had they?] and even VDP didn't know about movements so it seems funny if the continually touring BBs did which doesn't seem to fit a December vote down of movements if movements were not in play even in September.  Album movements anyway, Brian was all about movements within individual songs though and VDP was well aware of that and so were the Boys having sung vocals for GV and having heard dubs of the tracking of GV and WC for instance. Yet the tracks with parts/movements march on from April through August and October and December and on into March '67 and beyond into Smiley even TE was in play thru December and even beyond [according to music press and Siegel] and other songs.  Curious or what am I missing?

I'm definitely confused.  Why would a vote on "movements" even come up - if Brian didn't feel compelled to tell Van Dyke about the movement idea, why would he have to tell the Beach Boys, before he had even recorded enough material to mix into a "movement?"  Seems to me he would record the songs, just as he was doing, then when he went to combine the songs into movements without spaces between tracks (the mixing stage), then the Beach Boys would become aware of the plan and be able to object or consent.  I'm reminded of Ray Davies' original plan with Face to Face, which was to have continuous sides with link tracks between songs, mostly sound effects stuff, which was vetoes by the record company (Pye) - so he had to rework the album tape, deleting some songs and adding some new ones, and cutting out most of the intros.  But he had already mixed most of the album before this idea was rejected.

Van Dyke Parks didn't like everything in "Smile."  He's gone on record as not liking Vegetables, as well as Fire.  He also didn't like what went on at the sessions for Fire.  It was one of the things that made him leave.  He didn't like the direction of some aspects of the project, and he didn't like the way Brian was behaving.  A lot of people had problems with the way Brian was behaving, not just Van Dyke and the Beach Boys.  And that was all through 1966, including Brian's reaction to viewing "Seconds."  Though I don't doubt what was going on with Smile wasn't helping, it's a little bit like the chicken and the egg, which came first?  The lengthy, epic production of "Good Vibrations" also may have taken a lot out of Brian, which might have led to his difficulty on focusing on how to complete Smile.  Plus, the eventual blockbuster success of that single set the bar for Brian's future work that much higher,  while he was still working on that future work. 

I'd have to think what Carl did amounted to running interference with the record company.  It's hard to blame the Beach Boys entirely when Capitol Records fronted an astronomical amount of money for all those sessions with nothing to show for it.  And in the wake of the (relative) failure of Pet Sounds.  Maybe what Carl did was prevent the pulling of the plug entirely, whether or not the Beach Boys were vetoing the original idea.  After all, what exists of Smile are fragments.  There is no complete movements, no putting of it together, because Brian was nowhere near that stage yet.  It was still an idea, albeit with some well-executed and nearly complete components.  And Brian still had to integrate the Van Dyke Americana aspects with the principles of humor and "the elements."  So, dear Carl, a 20-year-old kid, had it placed on his shoulders to try to commercialize it for TPTB.  Maybe because of the reported Brian meeting where he went into Capitol with tape machines with loops for his answers (yeah, it's in the ABC miniseries, but reportedly true).  Plus, weren't the Beach Boys suing Capitol somewhere around that point?  In any case, the relations between Capitol and the band plus Brian were at a very low ebb.  They probably were not at all happy with "Smile" whether it be in three movments or 12 tracks.  And not really overjoyed with "Smiley Smile," but they were forced to put that out, after Brian scrapped all the music that Capitol had doubtless paid six figures for in session work. 

VDP has also gone on record to say he didn't hear the "fire" music until 2003, in Brian's music room with Brian and Darian.

So I seriously doubt that VDP left the project because he didn't like Fire, or because of what went on in those sessions....the man himself says he was pushed out (by Mike Love) before they even began work on the Elements suite.

Also, if it just took a vote to usurp Brian's authority as producer and change the fundamental course of an album [which the Boys allegedly never liked anyway but Brian's soul depended on] why would Brian then later be able to fundamentally scrap the whole project [which the Boys allegedly now gained control of and endorsed but Brian was bullied to accept] over the objections of the Boys, to not fundamentally scrap SMiLE, to the point of nearly breaking up the group [Brian's 1967/68 words]?  Why didn't they just vote Brian down then?

I propose [again] it is because Brian didn't ask or care what the Boys [or VDP or Capitol or...] wanted, he did his thing over any objections and the Boys stood by his choices even as and after  those choices became increasingly affected by Brian's illness and addictions.

I have to say that is a very compelling point.

While I still stand by my rant back on page 11 about 2004:
"Are we supposed to think everyone's lying so soon after about how much Brian really did just to make Brian feel better?  Or to sell records?"
- Has it occurred to anyone that actually Peter, Cam and John are quite possibly 98% in agreement in discussing the events of 1966?  The points of view are not inconsistent.  It can be tied together if you remember what Peter said (and has said before): regardless of what really happened in Dec. 66, Brian came away with a certain feeling/perception, which he truly believed, and then acted upon (in the midst of otherwise coming unglued with the difficult behavior Cam describes).
The "decision" or "vote" may well have been in substance no more than "I think we can make three movements out of this..."  "Nah, let's not" (leaving out the other unpleasantnesses that no doubt took up a  lot of time).  (OR which might not have been said in so many words, but was perceived as such).  And keep in mind the movements idea might not have been fully formed when the writing began in the spring/summer, so Van Dyke would not be privy to it.  And that the other Boys' pushing back afterward was part of their effort to make sense of what was going on (with who was "right" or "wrong" being flame fodder for the old Male Ego board).
I'm not trying to join in the speculating, I'm just trying to  suss out what looks like a consistent conclusion one can reach from this discussion, which is a fascinating (though ultimately unknowable) anlysis of the history. 

Yep -- that is a definite and crucial inconsistency in Peter's account.

I agree there are some consistencies between the competing speculations but there are also fundamental disagreements in the consistencies.  Whos' on second? I don't know.

Melinda asking her father, or anyone who has access asking Al or Bruce, if there was ever a vote to change Brian intentions for SMiLE or otherwise take control from him as their producer or bend his muse or crush his soul, unintensionslly or otherwise, in regtards to any production or creation would be good start toward making unknowable a little less unknown.  [batting my doe-like eyes. Not Andrew-Doe-like...well...maybe]

I'm wagering a donut that the answer will be a resounding "no" and "as if". After all, Al and Bruce have said they even lumped their humiliation over the demands Brian was making of them in how they "sang".  Mike wondered about a line of lyrics yet he lumped it and sang 'em. Bri bagged 10s [maybe 100s] of 1000s of dollars of tracking for SMiLE, over their objections, and they lumped it.

I think we ought to quit dreaming up ways to make B-dub a victim, while appreciating his struggle against his illness and addictions, and put more effort into appreciating the sacrifices the Boys, Marilyn, et al, made out of love for Brian. But, that's just me.

I agree to a certain extent. However, all one has to do is look at BD and see how obviously disturbing it was for Brian to reconnect with the SMiLE music. He felt it necessary to check himself into a hospital! I don't think anyone's TRYING to make him a victim, more like we're trying to figure out what the hell happened, because, again obviously, it had an effect on the guy that lasted for decades.

There was baggage galore for him to deal with, and deal with it he did, but for it to have been so painful is a real indicator of it's importance to him personally, and professionally. It was his crucible.

Man, this thread is a big deja vu, all over again!!! Paging Dan Lega!!!

Is it possible that the group, including Brian, simply made a BUSINESS decision?

Smiley Smile has always served as Exhibit A in the case against Brian scrapping SMiLE because of resistance from the group. Why would the guys object to Brian's "crazy", non-commercial music and ideas on SMiLE, then agree to record even weirder, and I believe inferior versions of the songs on Smiley Smile?

I always thought (just a theory - yes, I'm speculating!) that there was an official end of SMiLE. I believe there was some kind of discussion/meeting in May 1967, with the group and maybe Derek Taylor in attendance, where Brian announced that he couldn't finish SMiLE in a timely fashion. Maybe Brian told the guys that he only had 7-8 songs that were completed, and that he needed another 9-12 months to complete the rest, enough to fill an album, movements or no movements.

Maybe Brian offered them an alternative. He could take them into the studio, record enough songs to fill an album, but in order to unify the album, the available SMiLE songs would have to be reworked. After they get that album out, Brian could resume working on SMiLE to the appropriate completion.

Now, the group, including Brian, is thinking: It's been over a year since their last album (Pet Sounds - and in those days, 1 year was like the equivalent of 3-4 years in today's market), all these great groups and albums are coming out - The Beatles (mainly), The Doors, Hendrix, The Stones, Love, Jefferson Airplane, etc.), they want to get back in the game, sell some albums, make some money, get the record company off their back, and basically just move on.

Well, we know what has always driven the Beach Boys - money - even back then. Maybe the guys succumbed to the record "business", and maybe made a purely business decision. So, the group agrees to getting a "new" album out, product if you will, and thus we have Smiley Smile. Other than an occasional Brian interview, I have never read where any of The Beach Boys praised Smiley Smile. But, in the summer of 1967, it served a purpose.

  l

Could have been a business decision but my first thought is if getting something out and maximizing assets were the concern and especially if the proposed notion that the Boys were taking control was in effect it seems counter-productive that they would delay and throw good money after bad especially to repeat different versions of songs on 2 albums.


Just to keep the speculative riffing going: Seems much more likely to me that Brian didn't want SMiLE and therefore bagged it, inspite of what anyone else wanted and spent more money regardless of what anyone else wanted, to satisfy his muse. 

Another riff: I'm even thinking Van Dyke got elbowed out by Brian as Brian lost interest in SMiLE: soon after lyrics done Van Dyke seemingly becomes more distant till absent [me], Brian seems to begin to fiddle stuff [me], Van Dyke is getting tired of Brian's ways [Parks] and feeling music is to simple [Anderle], Brian is feeling music is too elaborate [Brian, Anderle] and old-fashioned  [Brian/Taylor] and lyrics are too arty [Brian and Anderle] and needing explanation [after Feb 28: Parks], can't work together [Anderle], Van Dyke signs with Warners instead of Brother [Parks or Vosse?] and Brian quickly stops work on all but H&V [me] and eventually bags many of the songs they had written together and recorded for SMiLE inspite of objections of rest of group [Brian]. 

I'm sure you have addressed this question at least once (hahaha - I wasn't around then and would like to know your opinion), but why do you think Brian "didn't want SMiLE and therefore bagged it"? Also, why do you think he REVISITED some SMiLE songs on Smiley Smile, instead of moving directly to Wild Honey? Do you think it was the time constraint and/or a lack of enough new material to fill Smiley Smile? Not disagreeing with your premise in any way (I appreciate different theories), just curious...

That's not quite true.  Van Dyke felt guilty about leaving Brian.  Van Dyke was feeling under pressure, but it was his choice to walk away.  And he was disturbed by Brian's behavior, as well as the Beach Boys.  He didn't listen to "Fire" because he didn't want to hear it.  He knew what went down at the Fire session;  he chose to stop attending sessions because of Brian's behavior.   Van Dyke was one of the reasons work was stopped, but not the only reason.   This was stated in an interview in ESQ and elsewhere.  He may have felt abused by Brian's erratic behavior, as were others in that circle at the time.  They really didn't have a clue about mental health issues anymore than Brian's family did.  They thought he was being selfish, acting weird, and on too many drugs (or couldn't handle drugs, which was a character flaw among people that did drugs with few apparent after-effects).

You also have to realize that Brian was taking too long for everybody, including the label and the band.  It's now not uncommon for people to take years to work on an album, but back then, especially for someone as prolific as Brian, it was making people nervous.

If Van Dyke stopped going to sessions, and he did, I don't think it was because of Brian's behaviour at the sessions specifically, because according to the session tapes, he was completely professional at all the tracking sessions.  So I think it was probably more in general that Van Dyke tried to avoid Brian, well, not Brian but perhaps the "Brian-scene."

I have a question:  If Brian was routinely dropping old best friends for new best friends, was there a new best friend to replace Van Dyke at some point?  Or was there a gap?

Wasn't it Danny Hutton after Van Dyke?

I think it is important to acknowledge two very important factors in this discussion. First, several albums were proposed during the Smile Era. It is not a leap to see that there were at least three Smile albums. First, the one with movements, second the one organized more traditionally with 12 tracks, and finally Smiley Smile.

The Beach Boys were ALWAYS about money. While their art is admirable, they enjoyed the fruit of the work, and they wanted to keep it going. Their business,American Entertainment, was a family business.

It is also important that Brian's feelings are his reality, just as each of the other members of the group's were theirs. I do not believe that the group was happy with the growing difficulty of performing the music onstage, and I think that they communicated this to Brian when they came off tour in 1966. Brian has said this to me and to other people as well.

Another point is that The Beach Boys felt comfortable as a singles band, and when their first attempt at album rock didn't "sell" according to Capitol, they got queasy about more stuff like this.

I see what The Beach Boys told Brian on December 7 or 8, 1966 as being framed in the overall discussion of the band's next album, and Brian's movement vision. It appears that Brian heard this as them saying "we don't trust your instincts commercially, Brian." After several gold albums and top ten singles, this must have sounded like a vote of no confidece to Brian. The lyrics were an issue, but the bigger issue was "do we become an fm album band, or do we keep making am single hits a our focus?"

It appears that this decision really did hit Brian hard. I don't say this to make him sound lie a victim. I state it because the aftershocks WERE felt in May of 1967 when Brian gave up the idea of the 12 track Smile lp, and later that fall when he and the group had a falling out over Redwood and he stopped working on Wild Honey as a producer in retaliation.

Brian went on working on the 12 track Smile for about two weeks in 12/66 before the next single became the focus. In February he heard SFF/Penny Lane, and he got even more queasy about his ideas for the future.

I think it was the doubt of The Beach Boys over Smile that inspired the great Marilyn Wilson quote about The Beach Boys "wearing Brian down."

As for the Brian quote from 68, I think Brian was talking about when he bagged the 12 track album, not the initial concept of movements. I think Dumb Angel and later the movement type Smile became quite important as a symbol to Brian of his lost sanity. I think he saw that time as a turning point in his mental health, and in his music, for the worse.  

My take is that there is a lot of conjecture here and little facts to support it.  I am happy to be proven wrong if there is evidence. 

Smile is out and done Brian took part in it. Could he of done it alone? No. Did he really want to do it, who knows? What we have on the LP or CD or on stage is fine and far better then we could have hoped for at this point. Brian did a good job on it whatever his input was. It sounds like a real Brian Wilson record to me and that's all I care about.

We can't change what he did or didn't do in 1966-7. He may not have gotten full support, but he was the boss. If he felt 100 percent confident in the music he would have stuck to it no matter what. Pet Sounds is proof of this. Besides The Beach Boys did a lot work on Smile. As late as May 67 even Mike was expecting it to come out. Read the articles and interviews of the era, the rest is hearsay. Never heard of this meeting before now. Wouldn't of Domenic jumped all over it in his book if it happened in such a dramatic fashion. They were fighting with each other as early as August.

This idea that the Beach Boys wanted to overthrow Brian is crazy. The fact that so much was done to encourage him to work from 67 on tells me that the Beach Boys always wanted Brian to work with them and direct them, at least until the 80s Landy era. Not counting half of 20-20 Brian was central to everything The Beach Boys recorded until So Tough. Even the Surf's UP LP.  Brian was too strong before Murry died to do anything he didn't want to do. If he felt like playing live he did, if he felt like recording he did. If not he didn't. Sure he was depressed before Murry died, he was depressed in 1964. The point is Brian could and did produce who ever he wanted. Ron Wilson, Spring, Fred Vail, Kalinich, The Honeys were all done by Brian in the late 60s early 70s. He did not change all that much at first after Smile. Why would Redwood have been a real problem? Mike was doing the Pickle Brothers, Bruce this Amy singer. Perhaps Mike didn't want to give Redwood a fair contract, but maybe Mike was telling the truth when he said Brian tinkered too much for the groups liking. I mean they never did go back to the sound of Time To Get Alone did they? I don't really buy the Al and Mike forces Brian to leave a session tale. Brian spoke very proudly of albums like Wild Honey to me. He stressed how well The Beach Boys worked together as a group in the late 60s early 70s.

Brian was taking pills for years, who is to say when he became an addict. Nobody has ever claimed Brian was a full-blown cokehead in 67-9. Nobody has claimed he was even on coke until late 68. 'Til I Die is being taken too literally. Brian has said it’s about being humble, what that have to do with coke. It's no more depressing then She Knows Me Too Well. Brian was always insecure, and he wrote beautifully about it. He wasn't on medication in 67 or diagnosed with anything until 1975. Carl claimed in an interview that Brian didn't have a coke problem until around the time of So Tough. That makes a lot more sense. Murry didn't hate Pet Sounds or Good Vibrations! Read the interviews he gave in Europe in 67 and in Rolling Stone in 1971 he bubbles over with pride about Brian and his music. In fact the things Murry says about Pet Sounds are among the best things I ever read about the LP.

"If Brian was routinely dropping old best friends for new best friends..."   

I had always thought that BW was dropped by the new best friends when it was obvious things weren't going as planned.

Just one question that's not totally adding to the discussion, but is it know what Van dyke thought about "Fire" when he first heard it?

Amen, MBE.

Re. Redwood:  I'd love to see a copy of their Brother contract because I'll bet it was just as Hutton has said, Redwood had a contract to do singles but they wanted to do an album.  Brother couldn't/didn't even put out their own album, Wild Honey, at that very time. 

Jimmy Lockert thought Brian was in control of SS, WH and Friends; I had the impression Desper feels the same, does he?  One day I hope we have the memories of Bill Halverson of that period. 

I wonder what Mike's recollection of all this today would be? [doe-eyes in Melinda's direction, again] Or Bruce or Al's?

You'd have a hard time getting Bruce or Al to talk, but I bet Mike would wax rhapsodic, after protesting that he "wasn't the right guy to talk to" about it.

If there was this meeting in December 7 or 8, 1966, I guess at the end Brian, Carl, Mike, Dennis and Al made a blood pact that nothing would transpire, ever. Van Dyke, Anderle, Marylin, Derek Taylor, Paul Williams, Siegel, Hutton never commented about the three movement album being voted down in a meeting. If something BIG like this had happened and hit Brian hard as Peter is saying, at least one of them would have told us about it in the last 40 years. And at least half of those people have said very harsh things about the Beach Boys to documentary film makers and balding punks.

I mean, we all read about the incident in front of the Inside Pop cameras. Which may have happened or not, it doesn't matter. It was transpired with gory details. Why would a 'meeting that became pretty brutal' have been such a secret for 40 years that only insiders knows about?

PS: This 3 movement stuff is overrated. What's the big deal in having transitions between the tracks, does it place Smile above pop music? They are still 3 minutes pop songs after all. The last time I checked everybody and their dog loathed Thick as a Brick and Supper's Ready.  :-D

Uhhmm...in my opinion: yes

Okay, why?

First of all, it´s a very revolutionary idea. Maybe not in 2004, but certainly in 1966/67. Just look at what a big deal Sgt. Pepper was. There we have the title-track flowing into the second track, or we have a reprise etc. and everyone raved about how it changed the way people look at albums. Now imagine a complete album that way...

I also think that much material of SMiLE doesn´t really work as stand-alone pieces. "Barnyard" or "I'm In Great Shape" are nice, but they REALLY start to work as parts of a larger whole, for example movements...

Another thing:

Jeff Mason explained it in his essay much better than I could, but by grouping the songs into three movements, Brian and Van Dyke created a form of "superstructure" (intended or not), that just wouldn´t be there if you would stick 12 songs together.

I recently got the opportunity to sit in on an interview with Al, and the subject of the increasing difficulty of performing the material came up.  While he said point blank that it was very hard to do live, he clearly relished thosed days and counted it a exciting challenge to work up live versions difficult material.  He also made it pretty clear that Carl felt the same way, in my opinion.

When I spoke to Brian on a couple of occasions, he also said the group was excited about the receptions they were getting, but upset about the criticism they were getting about not sounding like they did on the records. He said Carl specifically asked that the music be arranged so that the group could do it justice  That is why Brian said he went to Michigan in October. The complexity of the music was challenging, but they did not like the reactions they were getting.

The three movement concept in my mind is a big deal because it was the gestation of Smile. It was tossed out, and when Brian set out to reown the concept, he returned to it. For that reason alone, it is huge historically.

As for Lockert, I also spoke to him, years before Cam Mott did, and he said Carl played a huge role in keeping those sessions going. What you folks don't understand that I HAVE spoken to most of these people, either by correspondence or in person. I am not just pulling this stuff out of my butt and speculating..

I think there is an important concept to remember here, which is that as these people age, they are going to try to put the best possible spin on their roles in this history. Why is this a big deal? We get statements from principles in the situation denying things they are on record saying 15 or 25 years ago.

As for MBE's assertion that Brian was deeply involved through Surfs Up? I suppose you can convince yourself of lots of things, but having heard nearly 90% of the tape from those years, I can tell you that the Beach Boys after Smiley Smile did a very good job of convincing the record companies that Brian was there, when he wasn't. Why? Because he was mentally ill with untreated bipolar, and because he was full tilt in cocaine dependence.

I'm sure that Al and Carl, and probably Bruce, did enjoy the challenge of working up live versions of difficult material.

But the overriding question that they were facing at that time was, would their AUDIENCE ENJOY hearing it?

Did you ever look at the audience in those old black and white vidoes from 1964-66?  The majority of the audience seem to be teenage screaming kids. They look so young. I wonder what their reaction would've been to following Surfin' USA with Vegetables? Or to follow Little Deuce Coupe with Heroes And Villains?  Now that I look at it, that would've been pretty cool!

Anyway, didn't the Beatles have a similar problem which forced them off the road. Not so much the material, but screaming kids who weren't interested so much in LISTENING to the music. It's 20/20 hindsight, but I can certainly see why they (The Beach Boys) would have reservations about playing the new stuff live.

The idea of the band circa '67 trying to perform Surf's Up or Cabinessence makes me shudder. Can you imagine the reaction to THAT?

You're not saying that they lied are you?

Just kidding, Peter. Excuse my sarcasm, but when I tried to make a similar point (about covering for Brian) a few pages back, I was referred to as cynical, foolish, and condescending.

Alright, I've been reading theses forums for years, and I have never registered until now, but I thought I'd add a few points that certainly help me see clearer in the whole thing :

1 - There are two huge forces at play that are bound to have an effect on all the information that is given or repeated regarding BWPS :

a) from a marketing and media-friendly point of view, "pop genius Brian Wilson overcomes his demons and finishes long-lost masterpiece" is sellable. It works. It's good. But "little-known indie-rocker Darian Sahanaja puts together old session tapes based on fan-established theories and asks Brian Wilson to lend his voice to them" doesn't work. So anything that comes from the record company, from Brian Wilson's entourage or from the people who want the record to be a success will be influenced by that.

b) most fans are emotional, and want to believe the first version above, and not the second, which is so much less satisfying.

2 - Ok, the thing about quotes. A quote is something that somebody once said to a certain person, in a certain context. It's not the absolute truth. Think of everything you said today, and think of how trustworthy it would be if somebody extracted from it one line and used it again in 10 years later in a different context. When it comes to Brian Wilson producing BWPS or not, instead of trying to find the truth based on quotes, let's analyse the released product. Is there anything on it that seems to imply than today's Brian Wilson, based on all we know about him, made any impact? If he really was in charge, why is everything mostly a note-for-note remake of the old tapes? Wouldn't a man in charge of his own work add of substract to it, change arrangements, make surprising additions? If the whole record sounds like a fan-made compilation of the old bootlegs, with lyrics added to fit the existing melodic lines, it probably is.

3 - We BB fans tend to think of all the people in the BB universe as either heroes or villains. Somehow Van Dyke Parks became a saint. Now, I'm sure he's an honest man who wouldn't participate in something that is clearly a rip-off or an awful piece of crap, but from there to assume that surely BW was in charge of BWPS, because VDP wouldn't have taken part in it otherwise, is to project our own purist-fanboy unrealistic ideals on people who maybe just thought : "hey, this is good music, it'll end up a fun album, and it makes sense financially, so let's do it".

Doing family therapy everyday for years has convinced me that people want to be thought of as valued and important and "good." I have no objections to these folks changing their perspectives, because with age comes perspective. Sometimes the wisdom we think we have at 25 we realize at 50 was foolishness.

My challenge in family therapy is try to look at the events recounted from each person's perspective, and to attempt to grasp their unique point of view. Brian's is easy for me to get because I work with people like him daily. It can be more difficult with other people. But the Wilson family is a pretty classic set of adult children of alcoholic situation. I think the softness of all three Wilson brothers, for example, comes from their mother, whose positive influence is rarely discussed. Brian, Carl, and Dennis all have a deep and sensitive side to their music that grabs people and touches their hearts. I think that came from Audree's influence. She is pretty much the classic pattern of a woman who unwittingly married into a fairly disturbed situation. That she plowed through it and tried to teach her sons spirituality is important, because it is that music''s spirituality that touches many of us today and in the past.

One last quick point before I go to work...in reference to Kreen's point about Van Dyke. He certainly does NOT think he is a saint in this process. He feels quite a load of regret for not going to bat for Brian and more vigorously defending his lyrical ideas back in the day. His sense of integrity is such that he would NOT get involved with Smile 2004, if Brian were not the one having final say over the project. The tracks of Smile were preserved because they were worth saving. Brian feels they are his best arrangements ever. Surprises? There are a few dozen of them in the finished Smile, and I for one was delighted, moved,  and surprised when I heard them.

Excellent post.

Actually, I would say that.  And there is a diff -- the BB needed to use Brian to get a record contract, whereas Brian really doesn't need to do anything today.

Right on, Jeff! Brian really doesn't need to do anything today. Darian and Jeff and VDP and Melinda and others will do it for him. Other than sing of course. And sometimes they even do that for him.

But back to the issue, did the group lie about Brian, even it if was for a "good" purpose?

Great post, Kreen!

"If Van Dyke stopped going to sessions, and he did, I don't think it was because of Brian's behaviour at the sessions specifically."

Van Dyke was quoted in Gaines' book as saying Brian's behavior regarding the Fire sessions (calling a session, then waiting outside in a limo while the musicians were waiting, and finally cancelling it because the "vibrations" weren't right) put him off going to sessions.  Nevertheless, we have session logs that place Van Dyke at several Heroes sessions after the Fire sessions, so his "boycotting" of the sessions didn't last for more than about six weeks.

First point -- you KNOW what I mean -- Brian has no financial incentive to record or perform.  The group had major incentives to have Brian produce and write.  So Mike/Al/Carl had a financial reason to participate in deception whereas nobody's livelihood depended upon Smile.  And yes, If you re-read my post, I WAS saying that the group lied.  I think that they often acted shamefully when it came to Brian's needs.

Why are you so cynical when it comes to Brian?  Do you REALLY think that he is a brain dead vegetable?  Do you really think that he doesn't care about what happens in his name?  Did you really watch BD (as manipulated as in parts it admittedly was) and not see a healing process begin to happen and Brian be far more coherent than he had been on any camera in almost 40 years?  And compare Brian on IJWMFTT to compare -- it was post Landy, Melinda was there, and he still seemed shell shocked.  BD showed a new man (and that can't be faked by Darian or by anyone).

Why do people have to assume that Brian was completely out of the Smile process?  Other than past hurts, does you have one scrap of evidence to show that Brian was totally passive and uninvolved?  Even ONE?

The 3 movements of BWPS seem likely to be what Brian had in mind for SMiLE originally if one considers SMiLE to be representative of Brian's religious/spiritual experience. There are a number of quotes which imply a 3 part experience. There's the "birth & death & rebirth" summation of BW's life in the Siegel article as well as the "moment of clear light" experience in the Surfing Saints article which suggests a before/clear light/after scenario, and there are the accounts of other mystical experiences which obviously follow the before/mystical experience/after pattern.

If one applies this to BWPS, the second "cycle of life" movement would correspond to the "clear light" ego-death part of the religious experience. After this would emerge the new spiritually reborn person.

"Song For Children" would then correspond (as in the Surfing Saints article) to Brian being alone on the beach, looking up at the sky. This may be why one of the titles for "Song for Children" was "Look." And perhaps Brian decided to run on the beach during this part of the experience. That would perhaps yield the title "I Ran." And if this part of the total religious experience was followed directly by Brian's "enlightenment" then perhaps it would appear that the exercise (running) actually aided in producing the spiritual experience, and this would lead Brian to believe that fitness helps in promoting the spiritual experience.

Well, I had nothing better to do, so I asked Bruce if he recalled being told about any meeting on December 7th or 8th 1966 (not being a voting member of the BB corporation, I doubt he'd have actually been asked to attend). He replied:

"Hmmmmmmmmmmmm......I don't remember anything like this happening."

I present this as recieved for your further discussion and dissection.

Interesting notion Bill, but a bit too top-heavy with "ifs", "maybes" and "perhapes" for my total comfort. Plus we don't know what the lyric to "I Ran" was (do we ?).

As you said, Bruce wasn't a voting member of the corporation (was Al?) so he wouldn't necessarily have been told. If it happened at all. In all interviews regarding Smile Brian also only mentioned the original other four. No one ever seemed to be talking about Bruce and his opinion about Smile.

In July 2006 this is what I want to know about Smile.  In September 2000 Durrie Parks E-mailed me stating she had Smile acetates and tapes.

Could someone please tell me if the tapes and acetates are safe?  Further, has anyone (Hello David Leaf) listened to them?

"I suppose you can convince yourself of lots of things, but having heard nearly 90% of the tape from those years, I can tell you that the Beach Boys after Smiley Smile did a very good job of convincing the record companies that Brian was there, when he wasn't. Why? Because he was mentally ill with untreated bipolar, and because he was full tilt in cocaine dependence. "

Was he not that invloved in Friends   >:D or Wild Honey?

Valid point, which is why I mentioned it... but he was a member of the band, and during the next vocal session (12/13/66, I think, please correct me if in error), surely he would have noticed a certain tenseness and quietly asked what was up ?

Like others here, I find it hard to grasp that no-one involved has, in the ensuing 40 years, not made even the mildest of  public allusions to this meeting and its repercussions. Also, on 12/10/66 (a Saturday) the band played a one-off gig at Michigan U.

For Friebds, the tracks for several songs were cut at the home studio, with Brian the only BB, and producing. Others cut at ID Sound were similar. Going by the documentation, I think Brian was very involved in Friebds.

So would Peter.  This would be part of the 10%.

When were Dennis' and Carl's compositions recorded? Maybe those songs had something to do with the voting.

Can you give some examples? 

No offense Glenn, but have you ever read any biographies of the band?

No offense taken.  And no, I haven't.  I've only been a fan for about three years, and only just now starting to build my Beach Boys library.  (Still waiting for Catch A Wave to show up from Buy.com!)

OK.

Like Bruce Johnston said in Endless Harmony, "I think we forced Brian to stay longer than he wanted to creatively".   For years no major label would touch them as far as giving them a shot at making an album unless Brian was involved in a major way. Forcing that pressure on a mentally ill man who really wanted nothing to do with the band could be called by some as cruel and demeaning. 

To name just one instance.

Thanks!  But can you give me an example of what they did to compel him to stay?  I mean, if Brian said, "No, I don't want to," what did they do to make him stay involved?

\

Of course he has, he's already stated it -- the opinions of other fans, and hs own opinion. He's already said we can't count quotes as definitive proof of anything at all, so that's really all that's left, isn't it?

Carl in particular would produce Brian's songs (the Brian songs on CATP=ST are Carl productions) in Brian's style, creating the appearance that he was still involved.  As to what they used to get him to stay, that would take a book to explain.

Well, there was the infamous "give Brian a hamburger for every song he writes for us" phase of trying to manipulate Brian.  If you really want to drege up the garbage.

I thought that was just Dennis, during the infamous "Cocaine Sessions."

Now it's steak. He's graduated to Big People food.  :lol

Is GIOMH an example of "forcing Brian to stay longer than he wanted to creatively"?   

I think it's almost the other way around, most of the major songs on Smile work as stand alone pieces and most have been released as such. Tying them together in movements makes it sound more like medleys. There really isn't much of an organic musical flow in the Smile movements, except in the second movement and they overutilize that idea by coupling "Song For Children" with "Child". If you look at the descriptions of how the movements were created it was really more about grouping songs together that seemed to fit together musically and thematically, there was no big concept. That's why I, listening to the music, have a hard time buying, that Brian originally wanted to do a three movement piece. Doesn't mean that it probably wasn't supposed to be some kind of concept album, but more in the way that Pet Sounds or Song Cycle were concept albums.  Fragments  like "Barnyard" and "I'm In Great Shape" sounds more like they were thrown in because they were to good to just leave on the cutting floor, IMO they don't really work on the record and arent really used to their full potential. They should have put Great Shape in H&V, where it belongs and cut out the Bicycle Rider theme, whose appearance in H&V seems to originate from the Smiley period. Also I don't understand why it seems so important hang onto the idea that  Smile is a three movement opera or cantata when it doesn't work better than it does. It's like trying pin some kind of high art validity to Smile even though it probably would have worked better as a straight concept album, with some link tracks here and there.

Søren

I'm with Søren.  The "movements" aren't movements at all, just groupings of standalone songs or fragments.  There are still songs just butt-ended up against each other.  And there's nothing wrong with that.  But to me, "movement" still implies some kind of through-composition.

I think it was earlier, but it was Dennis -- who WAS a Beach Boy.  Just one example.  How about "Brian is Back", a PR exercise calculated to get media attention on Brian as producer, even though it was obvious that in 1976 Brian had no business being in the studio or on tour?  Their desire to get him healed was selfish, to get him to produce for them.

Or without thinking about getting him to produce (that was Rob's thing), the whole RockyNStan thing was pretty grim, and that was Mike's idea.

Actually, Brian wanted to do that album.  The whole reason that the Smile album came out was that it was a condition of getting the contract to release GIOMH.  You may hate it but it was something that Brian apparently wanted to do.

I don't know if the Beach Boys thought Brian was mentally ill.  His wife Marilyn wasn't sure of it.  If you don't know what mental illness looks like, how are you to say someone is mentally ill?  Syd Barrett's sister was interviewed shortly after his death, and she insists Syd did not suffer from any mental illness, had never been medicated for it, and was only hospitalized once, very briefly.  There's so much guilt and shame built up around such things, it wouldn't surprise me if they thought nothing in particular was wrong with Brian, other than too many drugs.  Plus, he always was eccentric, so he just became more eccentric, in their view.

Besides, the family probably thought it was good for Brian to be working.  It's not that much different than what the people around Brian think today, who continue to encourage him to keep working.  The difference, of course, is that Brian was more ill then and was not in any kind of treatment.  So it could have been detrimental at times for him to be forced to do work he didn't want to.  Or be around people he had bad experiences with.  Still, it may have given him some sense of purpose, because nothing else was.  Brian actually declined after Marilyn had the studio removed from their home.  He was also doing some writing and recording on his own in his home studio, without the Beach Boys, that was never released.  Plus, he did some work with Spring.  He worked with the Beach Boys to a fair degree up to "Sunflower."  He's all over the SOT boots from the later Capitol albums, more than reading a book such as "Heroes and Villains" would lead one to believe.  The failure of "Sunflower" for a new label probably made him less inclined to work with the Beach Boys anymore, plus he was getting sicker.

I don't think The  Beach Boys Love You was a total waste for Brian (it's one of my faves, so I'm biased), nor was 15 Big Ones, for that matter.  What was going on behind the scenes may have been bad, and maybe getting a guy who didn't like to tour to tour again was dicey.  But even Brian has gone on record as enjoying those albums. 

Brian gave one extremely negative interview when GIOMH was released.  He claimed the songs were chosen for him, and he wasn't happy with the results.  He gave different views in different interviews.  It's hard to say what Brian feels about things at times.

He did the same in a dutch newspaper in connection with the european Smile tour, where he said he wasn't able to make any decisions and other people had to do it for him. Melinda had to tell the bewildered fans that it was one of Brian's bad days and there was bad vibes between him and the interviewer.

Søren

And why is that hard to believe?  I say things I don't mean when I am in a snit. 

Andrew G. Doe said;

Andrew, I'm sure you picked up on the idea that if Brian made this sort of connection between fitness & the religious experience then that would pretty much explain yet another one of Brian's "obsessions" during SMiLE. We already know that laughter can prompt the spiritual experience (Vosse), and that vegetables & heath are an important ingrediant in spiritual enlightenment (Wilson), and now if we go way out on a limb...Brian's fitness "obsession" may very well be another part of the spiritual thing.

Sorry about using so many qualified statements. Just trying to present an "interesting notion" that fits perfectly into the big picture.

After I run...I could really use a drop to drink.

Well, if its true that he wasn't able to make any decisions and other people had to do it for him, then its no wonder that he has bad days. Not the only time he's said that, too.

You're gonna have to elaborate on that one.  I'm still a newbie, remember?

I don't think it's any secret that Melinda, David, and others around Brian make decisions for him regarding his career, his concert tours, and even what his next project will be.  If Brian had his way, and he's said as much in interviews, he would stay at home, watch TV, and eat steak and drink Heineken beer.  The Smile live tour was not his idea - resurrectiing the Smile music in any form was not his idea or his wish, it was suggested to him by Melinda and David Leaf.  Nevertheless Brian acquiesced (sp?) to the tour and the album, despite misgivings and a trip to the hospital.  Apparently Brian realizes he is inherently lazy (along with many of us) and that he "needs" some prompting to work.  Once the work is done, he is happy he did it, but along the way he has his "bad days" where he feels he doesn't want to do it.

The bottom line is that the people around Brian feel they know what's best for Brian, and make decisions for him and his career that he goes along with it, mostly happily but sometimes not so happily.  I've heard this justified by the reasoning that if Brian really didn't want to do it, he would find some way out of it or just would refuse - maybe that's true, maybe it isn't.  The theory is a "productive Brian" is ultimately a happier Brian at the end of the day.

And the problem with that would be...? Sh*t, if that would make him happy, then so the hell what? I mean, personally, I'd love it if he kept making music (selfish, yes) but not at the expense of him being happy.

Since we are questioning what everyone tells everyone, I have to question what Carl told Peter about concert arrangements.  Maybe because he was older and it was later day Carl misremembered.  Only a couple of British writers questioned the concert not matching the album as far as I know and back at the time it happened Carl basically told the writer anyone who expected the concert to sound like the album was an idiot.  He wasn't cowed by it a bit.  Their matching shirts got ridiculed in England too but they didn't stop wearing them as long as Brian was in charge.  They were already playing PS and GV to sold out crowds and if it was such a problem why did they continue to play them in concert, even adding H&V.  Did any of their concerts ever sound like the albums?  Did no music equivalent to whatever would be a single from SMiLE get played in concert?  Al's memory of his and Carl's attitude of artistic challenge rather than avoidance rings truer to what actually happened imo.

I don't think it was cruel of Melinda and David.


Carl was creating a false appearance or doing it the way he had learned from his mentor?

As for MBE's assertion that Brian was deeply involved through Surfs Up? I suppose you can convince yourself of lots of things, but having heard nearly 90% of the tape from those years, I can tell you that the Beach Boys after Smiley Smile did a very good job of convincing the record companies that Brian was there, when he wasn't. Why? Because he was mentally ill with untreated bipolar, and because he was full tilt in cocaine dependence.

Nothing personal Peter but you have to go on what you have been told and so do I.What I have been told differs greatly from what you have I guess. I have heard plenty of tapes myself and of course studied the albums. Desper and Brian himself both told me was involved with almost every track to one point or another during that time. Desper's book tells us exactly what everone did. You can hear the difference when Brian did stop. Ed Roach and Debbie Keil among many others say the saw a big change after Holland. Like everyone here I have listened to records seen pictures and heard interviews that tell me what Brian acted like on stage, in the studio, and in interviews. My opinion the Brian of 1967-71 was in far better shape then he ever was later. Again I have to go on what I have been told and my own observations. Still enjoy your posts Peter even if we disagree.

... as was the Pet Sounds Tour[/b] and, indeed touring in the first place.


Maybe it's just me, but does the fact that most, if not all, of Brian's albums since Imagination have been released on different labels worry anyone ?

As for Brian wanting GIOMH to be a part of the BWPS package - well, we know that's not true. The album was being shopped around for a good few months, and the original release date was January 2004. Scott Bennett got ripped a new one when he told a fan that they were having trouble getting a record deal for it and said fan repeated the news on the Beach Boys Britain MB.

Yeah in one of the saved threads of this site there is talk of Smile acetates sitting in Durrie Parks garage waiting to be listened to when her and her family have time to clear the garage. I have wondered if there have been further developments with these acetates - does anyone hane any info please?

Andrew, it was my understanding that GIMOH was done before the Smile tour and no one would release it without Smile being part of the deal, and that Brian was miffed because what he really wanted to release was GIOMH.  Is that wrong?

I'm just glad the last 3 have been on vinyl and that they don't sound "modern"

GIOMH was in the can by late fall 2003 and being shopped around the record companies by itself... and no-one would take it. That's when it became part of the BWPS, especially post-2/20/04.

As for Brian wanting to release it, well, my ears tell me he wasn't all that interested in the project at all. He didn't pick the tracks and he sure as hell didn't waste too much time doing the vocals properly (when the material engages Brian's interest, he responds... when it doesn't, it's very obvious). In my opinion, the sole redeeming feature of the whole farrago was that it made someone realise that 1) Brian had to sing way better for BWPS; and 2) doing all the bvs by himself wasn't such a good idea in 2003/4.

Why would he sing all the background vocals if he had little interest in the album?  Why not just leave the band to arrange and perform them?

Because someone else thought it was a good idea ?

A question regarding Brian's involvement with the Beach Boys circa 1969-71:

If the Boys were desperate for Brian to be involved with them during that time--or at least to create the APPEARANCE that he was involved with them--is it possible that they added his name to the credits of songs that he didn't really write or co-write on albums like SUNFLOWER, SURF'S UP, SO TOUGH, and HOLLAND?

Well, Elvis got his name added to stuff he didn't write, and so did Spector.

I'm now feeling very disillusioned.

He didn't write any of Pet Sounds.  David Marks did.  Wait for Stebbins' new book.

You can believe anything you want. The point is that you get a lot of contradictory stories about Brian's situtation, also from himself. He was probably exaggerating somewhat, but I think there's also some truth to it. I don't think he's a vegetable, but he's probably not up to his full capacity. I think you can also hear it in the music, his lead vocals sound somewhat stilted and unsure, like he's had to relearn singing and considers every word he's singing, it doesn't just flow from him. Doesn't mean that he still hasn't got  something to offer, I think there was still good things on GIOMH and his christmas album, but I just think he still has to fight a debilitating insecurity and some heavy mood changes, he's probably not just lazy. It's great that he's still trying, and some good things can still come out of that, even if he's probably just able to work at half speed.

Søren

I don't know if it's a big problem, he was probably sometimes cocredited for songs like "At My Window" or "Deirdre" even if he contributed very little. The big songs like "'Til' I Die" must have been Brian, there's just a marked difference in quality.

Søren

I can agree with this.

Yes, and yes. I can buy the concept of movements if we're still talking about, as Van Dyke Parks told Andrew further up the thread, "twelve banded tracks." In other words: movements in name or placement on album only. If, when we talk about movements, we're talking about songs that join together like they do on the MODERN Smile, I have a major problem with that because as Cam has pointed out many times, the songs have fades recorded for them. They were VERY CLEARLY cut as stand-alone songs. Joined-together movements aren't borne out by the songs COMPOSITIONALLY.

If the idea is that Brian's ORIGINAL idea was to have songs join together but that got scotched along the way, it must have gotten scotched pretty early because Wind Chimes, cut very first, quite a while before the other stuff -- and actually, before Van Dyke was even on the project, right? -- was recorded first with a definite ending and then, in the redo, with a fade. In fact, all the songs besides "Wonderful" were cut with a definite ending or a fade -- there doesn't seem like an "early stage" of the compositions where they seem like they were being cut with joining together in mind.

I have no problem with the songs being joined together on the modern Smile, because it works with way they arranged the songs for that album -- meaning they lopped off a lot of those definite endings/fades and found ways to join the songs together via new pieces of music. I like it, it works great. But I'm virtually certain after hearing all the sessions, and seeing all the pictures of boxes with "fade" and such labeled on them, that the songs were just that in '66 -- *songs*.

Now, as to how Brian meant to place them in the track lineup -- that's open for debate. He may very well have planned on grouping them thematically into "movements" -- hell, lots of folks did that in the 60s, Brian probably wouldn't even have been the first! But I'm not at all sure a) why the Beach Boys would object to that, since it really makes no nevermind how they sit on the album, does it? I mean, does it? and b) why it matters so much that we write history such that the songs need to be "joined together" into THAT kind of movement for the album to be "true to Brian's vision" or whatever.

This business-meeting veto -- until I hear a direct quote from somebody who was at said meeting, or who could describe it, I think it needs to sit in the realm of speculation. I just have a hard time with the Beach Boys objecting to the way the songs are arranged on an album. That seems like such a tiny, niggling sticking point that I cannot imagine they'd care about when the GIANT WHITE ELEPHANT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE ROOM is that the songs were effing weird to begin with!

It'd be a bit like hiring a painter to paint a wall brown, and then when you saw it the next day it was painted garish pink, and all you could think of to object to was that he missed a spot. You know?

Further, to J. Rauch's point earlier about the fragments not working as songs -- of course, that's because they haven't been edited together into songs! Do you really think that "Great Shape" in 2005 bears more than a passing resemblance to what "Great Shape" in '66 would have been like? I'm virtually certain it was assembled in modern day with no rememberance of what the plan was back then regarding that song, based on session documentation. Brian was so meticulous back then -- each song had so many different parts and they fit together in such an intricate way, that "Great Shape" the way it exists in modern day sticks out like a sore thumb.

I mean, heck, "Old Master Painter" exists on the modern album without the fade they cut for it (and I do miss it), so they definitely were not following the mold from '66.

So yeah -- those songs would have worked far better as SONGS back in the day, because they would have been assembled differently. In the context of the modern album, I think they work well as fragments, parts of a whole or parts of a movement, but they certainly could have existed as banded tracks, and I'm sure would have.

I think that what they did, frequently, was finish fragments of Brian's. I think "Marcella" is an example of that. I'm not sure at all that they didn't just take part of "I Just Got My Pay," put new lyrics to it, and re-produce it as a "new" song.

If I was Brian I'd want my name taken off some of those later songs!

Pure speculation on my part, but I don't think Brian would include "Marcella" in his concert setlists if he didn't have at least SOME involvement in producing the final version (as it appeared on SO TOUGH).

What was the story about the actual *recording* of that album? I mean, we now know what happened *after* it was done...are there any outtakes?


Well, Bruce has said Brian had like 5% of contribution to Deirdre. As for At My Window, he probably just wrote the part he sang in French, and the harmony parts (He came...to my...windo-whoa)

Maybe I don't understand, but "Old master painter" didn't have a fade then and does not now. Or are you talking about another fragment which I don't know....?

It did have a fade originally, but Brian took it out to use it as the fade to the 'cantina' version of H&V.  The fade is commonly referred to as 'False Barnyard', because there was a time when folks thought that it was a part of 'Barnyard'.  Definitely one of the pieces that I miss the most in BWPS.

It's easier to hear the connection of the two in outtakes, as the initial feel of FB was much closer in the cellos to the close of OMP.  But then Brian corrected the tempo to what he wanted and you have the feel of the version appended to H&V on the twofer.  BTW -- wasn't there a question as to whether FB on H&V was a vintage Brian move vs a later splice, or did Brian edit that all together?  Sometimes it runs together for me.

They would have added him to every song if this was the case. Deirdre for instance may not have had Brian do 50 percent but what he did sing and write is great (I assume it's the several lines he does lead on). Brian was involved 69-71, maybe not in charge but involved.

It's just one more tidbit to add to the collection of questionable Brian interview segments, but I recall a raw interview tape done with Brian in 1985 (for Westwood One I believe) to promote the BB '85 album. At one point, the interviewer brings up the "Surf's Up" album, and specifically I believe "Take A Load Off Your Feet", which is a song that has sometimes carried Brian's name in the credits and certainly features Brian singing the first line, and Brian reacts in this interview in total confusion as if he's never even heard of the song and seems to have little or no recall about the album as a whole. Whether this just means his memory failed him, or if he was not terribly involved in the song or the album, or some other reason, I don't know. I imagine that if the interviewer would have played him the song, Brian probably would have recognized it.

According to Bruce, Brian contributed maybe 5% to the song, but Bruce gave him 50% anyway. As i recall his lyrical contribution was along the lines of "My friend is Bob/He has a job".

Been some time since I listened to it - which lines does Brian sing ?

These lines:
These nights, pretty nights, that were meant to be
With you and me
It's the way that we
Always had our love, Deirdre

Or something like that, anyway.



That was mainly a Jardine joint.

Oh, I know the song was mainly Al's. I think sometimes (if not most of the time), the songwriting credits don't even list Brian's name. (This is one of those weird songs that has conflicting credits over various releases). It just seems odd that Brian did not even remember the song at all (I don't recall exactly how the interview exchange went, but it wasn't as if Brian indicated he just didn't recall too much about the song; as I recall he indicates he has zero recollection/familiarity with the song at all, as if the interviewer could have made up a song title and Brian would have given the same response), considering he did sing on it, and *may* have been involved in some element of the song's creation if his name has sometimes appeared on the writing credits at some point.

That '85 interview was pretty interesting, though. Brian talks a lot about the recording of the BB '85 album and has some strange stories.

That was, with 100% certainty, Brian. An edit done Feb. 10th 1967, and found on a safety reel. From there, straight to the Smiley Smile twofer and the GV box. No tampering (well, besides some no-noise, alas) necessary.

Excellent point.

Feel free to elaborate!  :)

Re: Deirdre

These are the lyrics Brian sings throughout the song.  Is it possible he wrote all these sections, or just one?


Good things turn bad but it's over now
So don't look sad 'cause you're older now
Lots of people miss Deirdre


These nights, pretty nights, that were meant to be
With you and me
It's the way that we
Always had our love, Deirdre


You may not live with me every day
All that I care is that we find a way
To stay together with Deirdre

Heh. Forgot to type the other lines...

Are you sure it's Brian? Bruce and Bri sounded awfully alot singing with high voice

Um, the last lines of those are Mike, not Brian. And to my ears, the rest is a group vocal, Brian taking the top.

I thought False Barnyard was originally cut with the OMP lyrics (you can just about hear them on certain outtakes) but Brian wiped them to use FB as the fade to Heroes? He then re-recorded OMP with the Dennis vocal in the form that we hear it in BWPS?  Surely then FB was never intended as a fade to OMP but was just an earlier version of it, or am I mistaken about this?

I do miss False Barnyard on BWPS too. The Western Theme that is on BWPS though, I always think sounds like an elaboration on FB though, so perhaps Brian intended it as a fade to replace FB as the Heroes sessions progressed in 66/67?

You're close -- False Barnyard was originally cut with the OMP lyrics -- but  sung, presumably, by Dennis the same time he sang the verse vocals. Some have said its Mike, but who knows. Point is: they were tracked. And the instrumental session was done on the same day the rest of OMP was cut.

The fragment then moved to H&V in January '67, presumably after "tag to part 1" (recorded Jan. 3) was scotched. The "barnshine" lyrics were then wiped. He then RECUT False Barnyard in February, adding in a Carl "doot-doot" vocal line.

No other version of OMP was ever cut until BWPS.

My now 4 year old son listened to BWPS on Rhapsody about 5 times, from beginning to end.  He loved it.  He even referred to Mrs O'Leary as FIRE.  :)

The most recent speculation I have on the acetates can be read here:

http://smileysmile.net/documents/durrieparksacetates.pdf

Dennis' "I Don't Know" was recorded Jan 12, 1967.
Carl's "Tones" was recorded March 1967.

Thanks for clearification ! So, it might have to do something with the voting. What do you think ?

I have been told not to ask such questions, but I do anyway:  is this based upon sources you cannot specify for reasons that are none of our business?  Or sources, perhaps, like Carl or Dennis, who are no longer here to discuss such matters?

Perhaps in the sense that if Brian felt before those dates he was losing control of SMILE, he would have also been losing interest in it, and would have been working on or allowing other recording sessions like these.  Also interesting to me is that Brian was involved in "Tones" and as I understand cancelled sessions for it in late March 67.

Chuck, I have conducted well over 400 interviews myself, and have another 400 archived. Some of them are unpublished due to senstive personal connections between people. I have several that were done with Carl and Dennis before they died that are unpublished. If I outlive some of thse people, perhaps someday they can be published. But in spite of all that, lots of the signs are there in what HAS been said or published through the years.

That said, I still learn new things every month, and Peter Carlin's book has some great new material in it.

Yes, but doesn't that book ask the very question that started this thread? I remember PAC posting on the Smile shop the very same line of thinking that has run off and on for twenty odd pages now. Darian finally sent a message, through a fan, that Brian was indeed involved in every facet of the making of the album. But this was after the book went to press.

Peter, you need to publish your book. Then we'll have something close to definitive on the subject of Brian, SMiLE, and BWPS, finally.

Understood, and thank you.

Sorry for just now bringing this up, but...I think this concert date might be a case of "Badman strikes again".  His book says they played Michigan State in East Lansing (not the University of Michigan) on 12/10 (December 10th in American terms).  We all know they played the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor back on 10/22 (October 22nd in American), two shows on that one date.  Over the years, the venue of the October shows has been mis-stated as Michigan State, and the European way of numberizing this date would be 22/10.  I could be wrong, but I really think it's another case of Badman (and there's many times where he clearly did this) taking conflicting data and "making" it fit.  In this case, it seems he changed "22/10" to "12/10" (both of which were Saturdays) because he was thinking it's supposed to be the American numberization (meaning there are not 22 months in the year, but there are 12) and because Oct. 22 and Dec. 10 were both Saturdays.

Maybe Ian Rusten knows?

That might make sense, except that "GIOHM" and "BWPS" were released by two different labels (at least the CDs were, which is what really matters in terms of sales).  Rhino for "GIOMH" and Nonesuch for "BPWS".  Granted, both are distributed by WEA, but they're still separate labels requiring separate contracts and essentially they are competitors. 

Maybe this belongs in a separate thread, but the Desper book (as printed) gives Brian credit for playing the piano on "Don't Go Near The Water" when other sources such as Alan J. say it's Daryl Dragon, and for playing the organ on "Feel Flows", when Carl tells us in the 1971 "Rolling Stone" interview that it was him.  Interestingly, the original draft of Desper's book as it appeared online did not credit Brian with some of the things that the printed book did credit him with. 

As for Brian's state of mental health and recording participation:  it seems clear to me that it deteriorated after 1966, then deteiorated even MORE after 1972.

I'm sorry this answer comes 20-odd pages later, but here's the quote from Darian as published in Dominic Priore's "Making Of SMiLE" book regarding the clarinet line in "Song For Children":

"I think 'Look' had vocals intended for it, by the way Brian reacted to music and the way he came up with the melody; working on that song was something like the experience I'd had with 'Do You Like Worms'. When I was able to listen to the multitracks of the song, there was bleed-through on the tape. That's where I got that clarinet line from, and Brian was very quick to sing the melody, based on that clarinet line."

With respect to to Dec 10 Satuday thing...Capitol memoranda are always stamped as received at the individual's desk, so it wouldn't matter if it was a Saturday or not. Capitol's mail room probably received the list of December 9th, a Friday, and it hit Ray Polloey's desk on a Saturday.

It looks like this:


RECEIVED

Dec. 10, 1966


by Ray Polley

with his initials under the date between the date and his name on the rubber stamp.

Why would someone work on a Saturday? Even I have been at Capitol on a saturday working on a BB project. That happens sometimes.

Charles,
Thanks for the info on the status of the Durrie Parks tapes and acetates.
Bottom line is that no one has heard them.  Hard to believe.
I can't help but believe that if the missing 45 minutes cut from "The Magnificent Ambersons" was found, someone wouldn't want to check it out.

Then again, maybe these tapes and acetates would show that a true Beach Boys "Smile" could be released?

You're welcome Michael.  What surprises me is that we don't have more recent information on them, as in, I'm not aware of anyone reaching out to Durrie Parks and either asking her if the acetates were found and thus heard.

Well, who has access to her?...if anyone on this board does, this is your cue.

Hey thanks for the reply.

It's funny but I bought this query up before as I was sure I'd read that Darian had heard a bleed for Look aswell as Child but I ended up assuming I was mistaken. It's good to know that he apparently did hear the clarinet line from a 66 session. Cheers.

I simply can't believe that when David Leaf interviewed Durrie Parks for the "Beautiful Dreamer" documentary, that he wouldn't have asked her about the tapes and acetates?

My gut tells me that these tapes have vocals and sections thought lost or missing.

Paging Alan Boyd and/or Aeijtzche!

I have no idea about the Durrie acetate situation.  Sorry.

The last we all heard from Durrie she and her son were planning to "inventory" all that stuff, and she was very willing to talk to someone about archiving it. Then she seemed to change her mind (possibly after talking to Van Dyke?) and backpedaled, saying the inventory was quite a long way off. I think, although I'm not sure, that Alan made several attempts to contact her, and that was the last we heard of it.

It upsets me that those things are probably rotting away somewhere, too, but Michael, if you're so concerned, why don't you get back in touch with her, or get her in touch with Alan or Mark Linett who could possibly DO something about archiving it?

Brian and Van are such creative guys that they wouldn't have to hear Durrie's acetates to finish Smile...

What I am trying to mention is that many of us did not know whether Brian or Van would remember the material, and that perhaps Durrie's artifacts would help jog their memories. What apparently happened isthat Brian had no trouble remembering his compositions, but needed lyrical help, which Van had no trouble remembering once they got together to listen. Hence, Durrie's stuff was unnecessary. If there is material she has that is not on the finished composition, it probably truly is an outtake, and would be interesting only for an archival release of the session sketches, like outtakes from Pet Sounds on the Pet Sounds Boxed Set (e.g. Brian screwing up the verses to WIBN). Hence, our wishes to get Durrie involved were more out of our fear of Brian and Van not remembering than anything else. We think like historians, not artists. Their approach was as artists, picking up where they left off and doing what needed to be done to make Smile complete. To them, it didn't matter that they used 60s material or wrote new material.


The above was written by Peter Reum on the old Smiley board in 2004. While I always enjoy reading Peter's posts I couldn't possible disagree with the above any more. I can't understand why he speculates that the Parks acetates would be like "Brian screwing up the verses to WIBN"?. Why assume that they aren't that interesting? I would think that the acetates are rough mixes and edits supervised by BW in 1966. Considering the lack of vintage '66 BW mixes in the vault one would think that acquiring the acetates would of been a priority during the preparation of BWPS. We know there is lots of significant Smile tapes missing and that it's likely the acetates contain material and mixes that aren't on the tapes. I just can't understand how anyone that is a BW fan wouldn't be salivating at the thought of unheard '66 Smile material. Maybe I just find the work BW did in the mid 60's more interesting than the work he did in 2004. What if tone of the acetates is a BW edit of I'm In Great Shape for crying out loud? Just one man's opinion...

Chris

At this point, with Smile done, they are artifacts from the 60s. It isn't that they are not worth pursuing, they are. But when Briian and Van Dyke picked up in 2003, they were working with what they had plus their memories. Smile as finished is from 2004. A Smile Box would be welcome, and I would buy one, but at this point, anything found would be unrelated to the finished Smile.

Anything Brian does is usually worth hearing, Smile 66/67 especially. I hope they put aside differences and assemble a box set. It is tragic that full compilations of the Basement Tapes and Smile 66/67 are not available commercially.

Excuse my naiivete but where does the main resistance for a Smile boxset come from? Is Brian still dead against it? I would have hoped with the success of BWPS that the original sessions would not be such a source of anguish for him. Or is it to do with the legal dispute between Brian and Mike at the moment?

Surely the Smile sessions will be released soon?! David Leaf practically said as much with Brian present.

Been some time since I listened to it - which lines does Brian sing ?


More like 20 percent I would say but Brian didn't do 50 if these were his lines. Still it adds to the song

Good things turn bad but it's over now
So don't look sad 'cause you're older now

These nights, pretty nights, that were meant to be
With you and me

You may not live with me every day
All that I care is that we find a way
It's the way that we

Brian has once said in the last few years something to the effect that Capitol will be allowed to release more Smile "over my dead body" or some such thing.  It seemed more like spite to me than anguish to be honest.

I'm sure I'm in the minority here, but I totally agree with Peter.  "SMiLE" is a work that was unfinished and abandoned in the '60s, returned to and finished in '03/'04, with the original recordings serving as the templates.  I would not call them demos, but rather "Brian's first attempt to do 'SMiLE'", as compared to the new version, which is "Brian's finished 'SMiLE'".  That's how history should view it.  Again, the originals DO have great value, and should be pursued, but as for a finished piece of art...only "BWPS" can lay claim to being that, and anything that didn't make it into the finished version needs to be considered "outtakes" out of necessity.  And Brian's outtakes ARE usually worth their weight in gold, for sure...especially the ones from such a significant project.  Let's hope Brian's healed enough to allow their eventual release. 

And its important to nobody that:

- these acetates, which are on degradable material, will deteriorate at some point and be unplayable, so its key that any of this stuff be preserved digitally as quickly as possible, and

- these acetates could possibly contain items of great historical importance -- edits, vocal takes we haven't heard, etc. Things which are not currently in the Beach Boys archive.

It doesn't matter ARTISTICALLY whether you think they're important -- it matters HISTORICALLY that they ARE important. Even if they're nothing we haven't heard before, they're still historically important and need to be preserved. Its relation to a completed Smile is irrelevant.

They are important historically and artistically. Of all the acetate versions I've heard, many of them have unique mixes with instrumentation that is not heard (probably) on the master tapes. I recently heard an mp3 of an acetate of "Do you like worms" that has a an extra bass drum rhythym over the chorus that isn't on the multi tracks- now that IS important artistically.
It is likely that Brian wiped many guide vocals and group vocal takes. The acetates are the ONLY place where these may be found. It is imperative that they are located and copied.

The mistake I made when I had Durrie Parks ear for fifteen minutes, was not offering to buy all the tapes and acetates lock, stock and barrel from her.
 

Could you ask about their status? Alan probably knows. While you're at it -- what's up with the Oppenheimer stuff? Status report, please.

As to the SMiLE box -- people should remember that there is an ongoing lawsuit between BRI and Brian that needs settling before they can even talk about that incredibly touchy subject. My guess -- it will be many years before we will see it. I'd love to be wrong, though.

Guys: remember, the Beach Boys Central website is launching soon. I think if they've managed to compromise on THAT, a lot of the bitter feud stuff has probably been if not worked out, then at least hatchets laid down. I bet we see Smile or some variation on that on the new site.

Peter Reum siad;

There is also the Tracy Thomas article on page 30 of LLVS in which Brian mentions that the album will include "Good Vibrations," "Heroes & Villains," and 10 other tracks. This article seems to be from around late October, 1966. Could it be that Brian had pressure on him, even then, to make a conventional 12 track LP?

That may explain Brian's hang up about addressing SMiLE in 2004. Maybe he associates the idea of an album with a compromising of his original vision of a 3 movement piece. When Darian suggested they put together a SMiLE suitable for a live performance the old album based constraints were lifted.

I don't get the obsession with the acetates.   It's nice to have more stuff, but can you really say that's what would have wound up on the final any more than what's on the other outtakes?   I don't think the fact they wound up as acetates makes it necessarily more likely that's what the final would have been.  Plus, no, I doubt they would be in good shape.  It would have more value if the master tapes they were cut from could be located, otherwise it would be scratchy listening.  It's also not fair that people have bothered Durrie Parks about this.  She owes Brian Wilson fans absolutely nothing.  It's to her credit that she hasn't sought a secondary alimony by selling them off.  Plus, we have no idea what the circumstances were in her divorce.  It might be a painful thing for her.

I think the fact that Brian drove to an emergency room during the making of BWPS speaks for itself.  I don't blame him at all for not wanting a Smile boxed set.  If Brian doesn't want it, it's good enough for me.  No matter what his reasons are, and I don't think BRI and lawsuits are the reasons. 

Frankly, I'm kind of surprised by the lack of interest some fans seem to have in vintage "Smile" material. Just as it serves no purpose to place the 2004 BWPS in the context of what the 66/67 recordings "could have been", I also don't see any point in placing the original recordings in the context of what the 2004 BWPS ended up being. In other words, I don't care whether the original recordings reflect what might have been released back then or what ended up being released in 2004.

My interest in the original "Smile" recordings has nothing to do with a "finished" album. It has to do with the fact that there is a huge cache of recordings made in 1966-67 by Brian Wilson and the Beach Boys during their creative peak, and a lot of this material has never been released or even bootlegged. To suggest that it's all just unfinished outtakes ignores the history of the Beach Boys, in which often times great stuff went unreleased. It also ignores the simple historical significance of the recordings.

As for the acetates, they *may* contain material not on any tapes in the archives. The acetates are likely historically important. Again, it doesn't matter whether the acetates reflect what could or would have been actually released. It's about Brian/BB recordings (and in some cases, actual compositions or variations of compositions) that we haven't heard.

Also, while the acetates most likely would not sound pristine, nobody knows for sure. Acetates properly stored and rarely played back then could still sound pretty good. Listen to the "Love Me Do" outtake on the Beatles "Anthology 1". That's an acetate from 1962, and it sounds like it could have come from a tape.

Somebody else mentioned the possibility of a "Smile" boxed set being one of the things offered on the upcoming beachboyscentral.com website, but I would think that while most archival BB material does have relatively limited appeal worth offering via the internet, a "Smile" set would be easy to launch as a mainstream release through Capitol.

It was always assumed by many that Brian was blocking a "Smile" archival release over the years because the whole subject was too sensitive. Given that he has now recorded a new version of the album and performed it probably 50-75 times in 2004-2005, I don't think the old excuse holds much water. It seems to me, and I'm just speculating, that assuming Brian is the only one holding such a release up (I've seen no evidence that the other BB's are opposed to such a release; at most, I would think the other BB's would want some input along the lines of Mike Love's booklet essay in the PS Sessions set), his unwillingness to go along with such a release has nothing to do with legalities and everything to do with the typical group politics.

Given what has gone down in the last few years, I still think a "Smile" boxed set of some sort is likely in the next few years. Maybe Capitol and their crack anniversary marketing team will motivate Brian to allow a 40th Anniversary "Smile" release.

Peter, since you mentioned it publically, could you please site and quote your source for the December vote or do you mean you are projecting the idea of it from "signs" in published interviews?  Thanks.

Am also enjoying CAT so far.

I agree. Those acetates may contain some music not heard on any boots. Nobody will say that they were to be on the original album and therefor BWPS isn't finished (though this might be another discussion). It's all for historical matters. It's like someone finds a whole chapter for "Faust" by Goethe (which imo has some similarities historical-wise to "Smile") not used in the finished work.

What everyone is saying. Totally agree.


Doesn't matter. They're recordings. They are, therefore, of historical importance, and should be preserved. Even if they're acetates of Brian farting into a microphone, the very fact that they exist as recordings means they should be preserved. End of story, full stop.

I agree, maybe up to the farts.

Surely contacting Durrie Parks can't be a very hard thing to do?  Someone in the know must have some way of reaching out to her?

as far as I know Durrie Parks is quite easy to find re: the film school she teaches at..?  is that right ..?  I remember finding her quite easily on the net a couple of years back

Arizona Film Society.

I found her E-mail so I'll drop her a line to see what's up.  Hope she or VDP respond.

By the way, having had the opportunity in the past to listen to material thought to be lost or erased; I can assure that it is a great rush listening to it.

Okay, whatever.  I'm sure Van Dyke and Durrie are thrilled to be continually bugged by Smile fanatics.  It's almost like some value recordings more than their fellow human beings, including those that created the recordings and those associated with them.  I don't get the sense of entitlement people have about having access to anything and everything Brian Wilson recorded.  Not that I don't own boots.  But it was thieves that made it possible.

Plus, you still are never going to know what Brian's real intentions were with Smile.  You just won't.  There is a distinct possiblity that Brian never knew where he was going with it, even if he had the idea of movements in mind (and it's not really conventional movements in a vocal work with distinct songs).  Your guess is probably as good as his.

I second this sentiment.  It sounds like this thread is turning into an instruction manual on how to stalk Durrie Parks.  Leave the poor woman alone.

I don't think Durrie being asked twice in 6 years about Smile acetates constitutes bugging her.  But I could be wrong.

I suspect if Van Dyke, or Durrie, doesn't want to talk about Smile acetates or Smile anything, they won't.

Never hurts to ask.

Fine.  I won't bother the woman.

Somehow, I get the feeling she will end up on Antique Roadshow asking if this box of tapes and acetates is worth anything?

I'm sorry,  maybe I was a little harsh.  Was just my gut reaction.

Oh please! Sending someone an email is not stalking.

And for the chance to hear the first version of Heroes & Villains I think I could justify more than just emailing someone. I might approve of a (shudder!) letter being written and, yes, sending it to her. Failing that, I'd countenance a full-on ringing of her doorbell, despite the risks and legal quagmire  that might ensue. Oh, yes! I'd do all this and more!! Mwaa ha ha ha!!!

There's empty tape boxes in the BB vaults -- the only place one might hope to hear what was on them would be the acetates! Of course, all I want is for them to land where they belong -- in the vault, transferred to digiital or analogue (I don't give a flying f**k which!) and compiled for the box set so I can smoke a joint and listen to them. Is that so wrong-a?

I would hope Alan & Co. might already be on this case. I know I would be.

Okay, a few things:

1. Trying to contact somebody once via e-mail or even phone/snail mail to inquire about the possible existence of archival recordings is not stalking, or even overtly bothersome, assuming the correspondence is polite and formal. The recipient of this correspondence could consider it as bothersome, in which case they can ignore it or answer by stating that they don't wish to be contacted.

In fact, I'm not even 100% sure that somebody who takes home an acetate technically owns the thing. I'm sure an argument could be made that the acetate was cut at the studio and the studio and/or artist and/or record company owns the acetate and it was only being borrowed by somebody working on the project (VDP in this case) for reference purposes. So it may be that somebody could conceivably make contact about these acetates to point out that they should be returned to the rightful owners. I don't know about this, maybe whoever ends up with it owns it. Beatles acetates pop up for auction all the time, so I doubt anybody would try to take acetates away from the Parks or anybody else.

2. Regarding the statement that "It's almost like some value recordings more than their fellow human beings", I think this is obviously a bit of hyperbole. Some fans are interested in what  happened to the acetates, and a few are apparently tossing around the idea of e-mailing somebody who may have access to the acetates. This means that people value the recordings more than fellow human beings? I don't follow that one.

3. Those who are interested in the acetates are not by default "Smile" fanatics simply because they're interested in the acetates and even, gasp, would like to see the acetates properly archived.

4. I don't see any sense of entitlement from fans about the recordings, at least in this thread. Heck, I don't even see anybody stating they have to hear the acetates themselves! We all would of course! But most who are interested in saving the acetates are probably interested from an historical perspective. Unless a "Smile" boxed set is release, the very fans who are trying to save the acetates will likely never even get to hear the acetates even if they are recovered!

5. Regarding the actates and what Brian's intentions were with "Smile", let me repeat as I mentioned in my previous post: The acetates are important all on their own! It has nothing to do with what Brian intended to do regarding finishing the album, or what Brian did years later.

I don't understand the apparent argument that we shouldn't bother with the acetates because "Brian never knew where he was going" with the album or because when it comes to a finished album "Your guess is probably as good as his." This reasoning doesn't address the actual issue. People don't want to hear the acetates solely to try to prove some harebrained theory about what they believe the finished album would have been! They want to preserve any archival recordings because they are BW/BB recordings! Frankly, it doesn't even have anything to do specifically with "Smile." The fact that they are "Smile" recordings only lends more interest to the thing for some fans. But for me, it would be just as important to preserve acetates with on-the-fly mixes that aren't in the tape archives for "Please Let Me Wonder" or "Wild Honey" or "This Whole World", etc.

Brian or the BB's or anybody else involved with "Smile" don't owe the fans anything. But I don't buy into the idea that fans with a strong interest in history should be painted as trying to abuse the artists or something simply because the fans want to help preserve some archival recordings. Does anybody really think VDP or Brian are crying themselves to sleep at night because fans want a "Smile" boxed set, even after BWPS was released? I wouldn't have even asked this question in past years when it seemed Brian might well freak out over the subject. But given his eventual enthusiasm over "Smile", I don't think fans should ever again feel any guilt for wanting to hear the original "Smile" recordings for fear that Brian will freak out over it.

We can take the whole thing in the other direction and paint an extreme scenario such as: Imagine watching the new updated A&E Brian Wilson Biography in 2015 or so. They get to the segment on "Smile", and discuss the amazing recently uncovered photographs of "Smile" acetates. We see the labels, many marked "final mix", maybe there's one in there marked "He Gives Speeches - Final Mix for b-side", and maybe there's a test pressing in there somewhere marked "Dumb Angel - Final Compilation" or something. I'm making this all up of course, and I'm not even trying to match the acetates up time-wise with what they could or would have actually been. The point is, I can imagine the narrator stating "unfortunately, the photographs that only recently turned up were taken years before the acetates were lost." Again, all made up, and rather hyperbolic to boot. The point is, we wouldn't want to hear some BB historian saying "if so-and-so had just been contacted and reminded about the acetates, we might have been able to save the acetates, but historians were afraid to be bothersome."

Beyond all of this, I don't think any fans even need to contact anybody regarding the acetates. I would imagine Alan Boyd and his crew have already or will inquire and do everything they can do find out about the acetates. Wasn't there some story where they fairly recently went through Al Jardine's stack of old junk in his studio to see if there were any interesting acetates or other items?

Why not try one of those dating sites, as a means of getting close to Durrie. "Looking for a woman with Smile acetates". Well if you're that desperate and you never know, you might get lucky   ;).

Søren

Plus:


Why do you keep assuming this is why any of us care? I could give two figs about that.

I'm glad you're not in charge of, say, preserving historical documents at the Smithsonian. You'd turn on the heater, crack open the glass and let the kids play with 'em -- why not? You'll never know the founding fathers' true intentions by looking at old documents!

Well, if you want to bug Durrie Parks, go right ahead.  See what happens.   Or wait for a Smile boxed set of every single take put down.  Even if Brian ever agreed to that, which he probably won't, wouldn't it be just a limited selection of them, as the PS boxed set it?  Then, you'd still be disappointed.  Having every single take of every single thing that Brian ever did is just not going to happen, particularly as official releases (not to mention the fact that many tapes are just plain missing).  There just aren't that many people out there that care that much.   Look how well the Hawthorne set sold, which probably has caused some other discussed releases not to happen.  Whether the new Web site is going to change things remains to be seen, in terms of releasing studio stuff, not just live recordings. 

I still don't understand this reasoning for not bothering with the acetates. First, it was:

Fans wanting to preserve "Smile" acetates = Fans who are only interested in using said acetates to "finish" the album the way Brian should have

Now, it has morphed into:

Fans wanting to preserve "Smile" acetates = Fans who are only interested in hearing and seeing released every bit of "Smile" sessions ever recorded

Let me repeat again: While fans would love every bit of "Smile" sessions to be released, and many fans actually do enjoy piecing together their own "Smile" lineups (but aren't delusional enough to believe what they're doing reflects what actually would or could have been released; they just do it for fun), these facts have nothing to do with preserving some potentially important "Smile" acetates! I repeat: The fans want to see the acetates preserved for historical purposes! End of story. It has nothing to do with what the finished album could have been. It has nothing to do with wanting to see a "Smile" boxed set or wanting to see every second of sessions released. As I mentioned before, it doesn't even have anything to do with wanting to neccesarily hear the acetates. As my previous post indicated, the very fans trying to look into saving the acetates may well never get to hear the acetates *even if* a "Smile" boxed set of some sort gets released.

So far, the only reason for not pursuing the acetates that makes the slightest bit of basic, logical sense is to not bug the person or people who might have the acetates. I don't agree that one e-mail for instance is particularly instrusive. But what doesn't make any sense is to not pursue the acetates because we don't know what the final lineup would have been, or because even an in-depth boxed set may not contain the acetates. These reasons have nothing to do with the acetates at all.

No one seems to have mentioned that these acetates are intellectual property, protected by copyright.  So, let's say you contact Durrie Parks, and she agrees to let you hear them, or even buy them from her.  Can you legally copy them and share them with other fans?  No.  So, the only useful way you can get Durrie to give up her acetates, assuming she has them and they're in at least listenable shape, is to persuade her to give them up to someone who will be able to get the legal clearances to release them officially.  Which brings you right back to Brian Wilson.  So, unless he changes his mind up about original Smile material (and there may be some resistance on his part because of the fact that fans bug him about it, he's stubborn that way, not just that he's got an emotional hang-up), it's not going to happen.  Or you could get the acetates from Durrie and circulate them illegally, which would make you a bootlegger and could get you in trouble.  And Durrie Parks in trouble as well.   

If anyone does have the chutzpah to get in contact with Durrie, let us know what she has to say, if anything.

One more time, since you seem to completely fail to grasp the concept.

We do not want these to bootleg them. We do not want these to sell. We do not even necessarily want them to HEAR them. Nobody thinks its going to solve any problems. THEY SIMPLY NEED TO BE PRESERVED FOR HISTORICAL PURPOSES.

Full stop.

They ARE preserved, in Durrie's house.

True, but I doubt a house is the ideal archive, even under the best of circumstances (heat, water, and etc). 

Easy definition of an archive:

An archive refers to a collection of records, and also refers to the location in which these records are kept. Archives are made up of records which have been created during the course of an individual or organisation's life. In general an archive consists of records which have been selected for permanent or long-term preservation. Records, which may be in any media, are normally unpublished, unlike books and other publications. Archives may also be generated by large organizations such as corporations and governments. Archives are distinct from libraries insofar as archives hold records which are unique. Archives can be described as holding information "by-products" of activities, while libraries hold specifically authored information "products". The word 'archives' is the correct terminology, whereas 'archive' as a noun or a verb is related to computer science.


Notice that there is no STEALING or SELLING mentioned. 

Yes indeed.



At the very least, hopefully they can go to someone who can make copies of the material so it isn't lost forever. Ideally, someone affiliated with Brian and/or the BB, or Capitol, or...you get the point.

Durrie HAS been approached by "official representatives" about archiving the acetates and then returning them to her and her daughter, since the acetates were the way a collaborator could take home and listen to "work in progress" back in the olden days.  Ownership was Van's, and by default Durrie's.
Cutting a working demo/acetate was common practice and part of the price of doing business in a recording studio.
Durrie did reply to said "officials" that any compensation (BRI did agree to offer a finders fee to her for the use of the acetates) should go to "Van's daughter".
I am chronically uninterested in the "hub bub" that accompanies Wilsonia & Beachboydom in general these days.  Old I guess.  But, I admit I would love to hear the acetates.  The sessions and the working tapes are where the truth and inspiration seem to come together to insinuate the possibilities of genius.  I find that stuff most rewarding.
Listening to Brian "catterwalling" on the Cocaine Sessions or hearing him directing the studio musicians, whether it is on material from 1964 or from SMiLE is awe inducing in the extreme.
IMHO, Ask Durrie again, I have no idea where she lives these days.  It's been so many years ago, and she moved once, I found her again, and then I heard she moved again, but I lost momentum for the "hunt".
GOOD LUCK all!

Whatevah.  ::)  Of course I don't grasp the concept.  I'm a woman, like Durrie Parks is a woman.  Dumb chicks.  She probably let the grandkids destroy them long ago, since she can't grasp the concept and shouldn't be trusted with something so valuable.   

You aren't that stupid, are you?

Rather than all this, why don't you just ask Brian to re-record the whole thing so we can hear what it would sound like now. :-D

Now folks...let's play nice, shall we?



Roflmao

Anyone who thinks that acetates and possibly tapes stuck in a box in someone's attic is "preserved" or "archived" clearly has no experience whatsoever in keeping such material for decades.

OK I have no direct experience of acetates but I maintain my own archive of magnetic tapes of various formats and I know the stuff has to be carefully looked after. Acetates are likely even more fragile in certain circumstances. Have you ever listened to a tape that was made 30+ years ago and stored in somebody's house?

Regardless of whether we ever get to hear this stuff...it is widely known that Durrie Parks has some acetates from the SMiLE era. They ought to be preserved. From what we know, it seems that Durrie might well agree but hasn't got the time to sift through her "junk" and locate them.

Obviously the music contained within them should be archived and preserved...both by preserving the original media and by copying to a modern lossless digital format. Whether any of it is ever released or bootlegged is IMMATERIAL.

In an ideal world there'd be a huge SMiLE box set with all extant material released officially......but assuming that isn't going to happen anytime soon...at least preserve what we know to exist.

I cannot understand the attitude of someone who would not wish to see Durrie's material somehow archived.

I can see you're not actually listening to what people are actually saying, and so I bow out of this lovely conversation gracefully.

Just for the sake of throwing a pebble to see what the ripples look like...

Alan Jardine has acetates too.

Maybe I missed this in the last 27 pages, but why would Durrie Parks have the acetates? And how bout some more background info on her? I did a search but not much comes up. Then again, Desper has pointed out that I suck at googling...:shrug

So does Bruce Johnston...but he's not willing to hand em over.
 :-X

What if Mike Love has some acetates, do you think he's willing to share?!

He's going to sue you for saying that.

I think Durrie Parks was living in Scottsdale, Arizona circa 2003.

 ???

um.. she's Van Dyke's ex-wife. Van Dyke brought home acetates. Then, presumably, when they divorced, she kept them.

First time I met Van Dyke (his place, March 1985, LA) his opening words were along the lines of "I expect you want to ask me all about Smile and listen to any tapes or discs I may have... well, I suggest you ask my first wife about that, she has all of that stuff". Thus, we spent an enchanting, and entirely Smile & BB-free evening. Van Dyke is a true gentleman.

It was Andrew who told me that Durrie had Smile tapes and acetates.  At the urging of Doug Sulpy I took a flyer and sent her an E-Mail.   Not that it did me any good.

Still can't understand the big deal about saving and restoring some old tapes and acetates? 

One of you will have to marry into her family and then have a poke around whilst you're visiting.

Thank you for insulting me personally in this thread not less than three times, including this one, and thank you for leaving.  Insulting people is not presenting an argument.


There is a lack of respect towards Durrie Parks in some of this thread, because like it or not, it's her property and there's nothing anyone can do about it.  I'm probably wrong to chalk it up to sexism, but I just wonder if she were a guy if people would feel differently, or at least people would feel less inclined to try to "persuade" her repeatedly, when she's already given a no or a non-reponse.   Durrie worked in the record industry, so she knows what she has and likely knows how to take care of things such as acetates.

Acetates are not magnetic tape, and don't deteriorate in the same way.  They can last for decades (check out E-Bay for the large number of playable acetates for sale).  They won't warp like a vinyl record, since they have a metal base.  The worse thing you can do with them is play them, since the grooves wear out very quickly.  They also get scratched more easily with handling.  The best thing to do with them is not touch them.  If Durrie is not touching them, then they're very likely to be okay.  It's strictly up to her if she's going to allow anyone to digitize them, which should be done by a professional archivist who would know the best way to handle and play the acetate during the process.  If anyone is interested in maintaining the acetates for the sake of posterity, you should be grateful that she hasn't allowed fans to buy them, look at them, or listen to them. 

Of course you are... but don't let that stop you!  Durrie Parks needs you to save her from the crazy stalker SMiLE fans!  Come up with ANYTHING!  Her life is in your hands!

Yeah, or maybe elect her as "Woman Of The Year" of the Smiley Smile site. Find out where she lives, buy her some flowers and try not to look like a scruffy, desperate Smile geek and then take it from there. That would take some work, I know.

Søren

BWPS is a collage put together by his bandmates and Mr. Parks to honor the album that never was and sadly freinds never will be.  Still, it is a awesome listen at times and I feel BW put his heart and soul into the collage.

     I've only just now ventured to look at this topic, and I have no idea if I'll ever make it through more than these first few posts, especially seeing as how I just have to respond to the second post, which is by none other than my good friend Andrew!  Andrew, I'll admit that when Brian and Darian first started on this enterprise that the goal was to just cobble together a version that could be played live.  But from what I can see in the end product and from subsequent discussion and especially from the fact that Van Dyke Parks was brought in, I don't see any evidence that the SMiLE that was presented in concert is any less than a true attempt to FINISH the album!  Please show any other evidence that SMiLE 2004 might be watered down for a concert presentation only.  Were there parts that were left out because of the difficulty of playing?  If parts were left out, then why didn't they put them back into the CD version?  Sorry, Andrew, but this idea doesn't fly with me one bit.  As I said, it does look like they started it that way, but from all evidence I've seen is that the concept changed and they truly tried to finish SMiLE as best as they could.  Show me one part that was left out because you think it was too difficult to play or sing and maybe I'll change my mind.


           Love and merci,   Dan Lega

    Your thinking that Jeff Foskett had anything to do with sequencing the new SMiLE just renders the rest of your observations moribund, also.  It may be true that Darian did it all, but I've never heard one bit of evidence that Jeff Foskett had made even the tiniest of contributions to SMiLE 2004.  Yes, he announced he was going to be helping with putting SMiLE together, but after that the only evidence we have is that Darian (and possibly Van Dyke) helped with the sequence, and that Jeff was totally out of the sequencing loop.  Jeff has never said he helped with the sequencing.

     But let's look a little more at Darian and Brian sequencing SMiLE.  Suppose Darian came up with an idea that certain songs might work together well, and then he and Brian agreed or disagreed.  Once they agreed, then they sat around and played with those songs in different sequences until Brian said he liked that or didn't like that.  Now, would that be Darian or Brian sequencing it?  To me it would be both.  Now if Darian just came in with a sequence and Brian just listened to it and said "okay", then, yeah, that would be as if Darian did all the sequencing.  But I don't think Darian worked that way.  I think he wanted to involve Brian in the best way that he could, and I think Brian was interested.  Obviously, you don't think Brian was interested at all.  But please don't say that Jeff Foskett sequenced it, there isn't one tiny tidbit of evidence for that scenario. 










      First we get Jeff Foskett helping with the sequencing and then we get Brian writing the "Hot as hell" lyric?  Whew!  Van Dyke has forthrightedly stated that he came up with the idea of putting a lyric in "Water", and that he himself wrote the lyric.  This info is not hard to find.

              Love and merci,   Dan Lega

Well, someone needs to ask *him* then  ;)



Whoa...I missed the insults...Joe, did you delete them? 'Cause I don't really see any actual *insults*.

I have no idea where the sexism argument comes in. One person said he asked her, and that's it (unless I missed something). I don't see the lack of respect. Now, if someone had said something like "b*tch better give my my motherf*cking acetates", then that'd be different.

Meh...everybody play nicely.

Yay! Dan, I've been mentally paging you for some time now! There is a boatload of horse-sh*t like the posts you just answered. Good luck!

Wow! No one insulted you. But I'm getting tempted...

As stated by Bob Hanes, the BRI team has been speaking with Durrie about the acetates, which is all any of us wanted in first damn place!

edit -- this is where I gave in to temptation and got insulting. Deleted because you DO have one of my favorite Lee Hazlewood songs as your screen-name.

Well, I felt insulted by the manner in which he presented his arguments. 

"You don't grasp the concept!" 

"You'd let the kids play in the Smithsonian among the documents!"

"Period! End of story!"  and my favorite, "FULL STOP!"  Like a frigging telegram.

But I apologize to "Old Rake."  I was being silly, particularly in my argument about sexism.  I know he means well and is one of the resident experts.  One person's "anal" is another person's "Smile Scholarship."  And I mean no insult by that.

Can't speak for Jon, but I always accept 'anal' as a mere statement of fact, rather than an insult.  :-D

I think we are really just grousing about the lack of info about what, if anything, is going on with the SMiLE box. We don't even know if there is one, much less what it would contain. If it came out sans Durrie's acetates, it would seem an opportunity lost, for her and us.

I know,I know. I was just hoping there *wasn't* any insulting going on, 'cause I'm kinda crackin' down on that. I think its more of mutual frustration on both sides, as I think you folks are disagreeing about two different things. It happens.

Thanks for the self-edit. And no, I'm not being sarcastic...I mean, really, THANK YOU. I'm in a lazy mood today :lol

As for the "Blue Hawaii" lyric that I thought Brian wrote (the intro), I honestly thought it was a Brian-ism. Either way, still think it's a cool-as-hell joint.

Hey, all. I've been reading this site for awhile, but haven't posted until now. I'll step gingerly into this, because with SMILE, it just strikes me that there will be only questions, never answers. I would be interested in your views on one thought I have: Does the never-ending fascination with SMILE in any way diminish PET SOUNDS? Because for all the talk of the "lost masterpiece" of SMILE, my opinion is that even if Brian had completed it, it wouldn't have necessarily been a greater artistic achievement than PS. And I wonder if all of our interest and investment in what SMILE could have been/should have been makes us a little blind to the fact that he DID create a masterpiece without any kind of interference and it's called PET SOUNDS. Yes, yes, I know this is a SMILE site, but it intrigues me that PET SOUNDS, which is a masterpiece of which there should be no dispute, has never engendered the level of fascination/obsession/whatevah that SMILE still does. I guess what you don't have is always more interesting than what you have.

By the way, I've finished reading Peter Carlin's book, and he does add a lot of new textures to the ongoing literature on the Beach Boys.  One thing he said at the beginning of the book really struck me, since it kind of relates to this board: He said the one thing all BW fans want him to do is to look back and that's the one thing Brian wishes to never do. So, there will never be any sense of satisfaction, perhaps, on either side.

   Also, Carlin's book made me realize that we really need a good bio of Mike Love. I'm no fan of Love's actions over the years, but I'd like to hear more from him, whether I agree with it or not. Carlin's book, in its need to cover a lot of ground, didn't have time to look into Love's contributions . I also wish somebody would write a full book on the pre-PS years, and look in-depth into Brian's work with Jan Berry and other outside artists and give a real feel into the studio work of that era. I've never read a book on just the sheer creation of the music that satisfied me (To his credit, Carlin's book made me feel some of Brian's creative process more than previous books have).

OK, I've covered a lot of stuff that's probably off topic to this thread, but it was on my mind....

I contacted Mike Love, and he was really warm and forthcoming, and has invited everyone over to his for afternoon tea, and to discuss and listen to his private SMiLE tapes. He says he's got the proper sequenced version which he made in 1987 (with help from John Stamos).

:lol

John Stamos would have suggested that they record a video of them performing it live, with Stamos wandering around stage with his Telecaster acting like he doesn't know what he's doing. If you've ever seen a concert with Stamos, you'll know what I'm talking about.  :)

I'm really glad I don't    :-D

Well, "General On Topic Discussions" means anything Beach Boys/Brian Wilson-related, not just talk about "SMiLE". "Pet Sounds" has been discussed in-depth at times on this board, but your last line in the quote above does sum it up: "SMiLE" engenders more discussion/speculation/arguments than "Pet Sounds" because the original sessions for it in '66/'67 did not result in a finished album. I seriously doubt anyone here dislikes "Pet Sounds"; I think there may be quite a few who do think it's better than the culmulative "SMiLE" material. Personally, I love "Pet Sounds" and the stereo remix release a decade ago was almost as exciting for me as hearing a completed "SMiLE". But I still love the "SMiLE" sessions more and, in concept, I find BWPS to be better than "Pet Sounds" (of course, nothing can compete with the great Beach Boys vocals/harmonies circa 1966). Perhaps it's because the subject matter and song arrangements of the "Pet Sounds" material had been done before (just not as accomplished), but the "SMiLE" subject matter and arrangements were something completely new, completely different.

Roger, I can't really argue with you. i've been sitting here listening to my Vigatone two-fer and the music is indeed groundbreaking and glorious. I wish I could get more excited by BWPS, I liked it in concert much better than the finished product. I think it's the somewhat pristine qualities of the harmonies as opposed to the warmer blend of Brian's voice on the boots or what the Boys did with/could have done on some of the songs. But, as always, this is splitting hairs.  Of course, I gather that splitting hairs is pretty much what this site is all about. :lol

Dan Lega,
     Before you take the time to criticize somebody else's post, it might be a good idea to actually read that person's post - at least a little closer, which obviously you did not. No where in my post did I even mention the word sequence, much less that Jeff Foskett helped with the sequencing. I used the word WORK. You can read anything into that that you want, but don't put words in my mouth. It is possible, that after Darian (and Brian?) sequenced BWPS, and began working on the LIVE PRESENTATION, that Jeff Foskett ASSISTED in the live performance preparation, IN SOME WAY, even if it was just helping with the rehearsal of the material. Even though I haven't come up with the proof to satisfy you, is that too much of a stretch to think that Jeff did help out with the live presentation, which then became, note for note, the finished CD? He is one of the Brian Wilson Band leaders. You wouldn't argue that would you? And in Beautiful Dreamer, it appeared to me that David Leaf featured Jeff Foskett in a lot of the footage leading up to the concert.   

And SMILEY, you're an asshole who SHOULD page somebody else for help, because after reading your posts, you obviously have nothing constructive to say.   
     

Dan  wrote:  "Please show any other evidence that SMiLE 2004 might be watered down for a concert presentation only.  Were there parts that were left out because of the difficulty of playing?  If parts were left out, then why didn't they put them back into the CD version?  Sorry, Andrew, but this idea doesn't fly with me one bit.  As I said, it does look like they started it that way, but from all evidence I've seen is that the concept changed and they truly tried to finish SMiLE as best as they could.  Show me one part that was left out because you think it was too difficult to play or sing and maybe I'll change my mind."

Dan, it seems you haven't read the entire thread because you're arguing for things that no one has argued against as far as I can see.  Nobody said anything was left out because of playing difficulty, or singing difficulty.  What the thread is about is whether BWPS, the concert and subsequent CD which is very faithful to the concert version, is a finishing of Smile AS BRIAN AND VAN DYKE MIGHT HAVE FINISHED IT IN 1967.  And it's clear that it's not.  Peter Reum says that BWPS is a finished Smile following Brian's original intentions to create something in three movements.  Others question that assertion, since Van Dyke and others were never aware of this three movement idea in 66-67 (Van Dyke specifically told Andrew that SMile was to be 12 tracks, banded, with fades, no links), and because virtually everything Brian was recording included FADES - so the idea of movements with continuous musical sections and links between sections/songs is not borne out by what Brian was actually recording at the time. 

What was left out of BWPS that would have been in 67 SMile is the more relevant question that this thread has been about.  And that would be . . . the fades!  Fade to Vegetables, the OMP fade/false Barnyard, the Wonderful tag (if he was thinking about movements, why record a tag to something that has a definite cold ending?).  What's in BWPS that wouldn't be in 67 SMile?  Link sections, cross fades, the Asher lyrics to Good Vibrations.  The different, simplified (and less eerie) arrangement of Mrs. O' Leary's Cow.  Etc, you can come up with more examples.  So while BWPS is a "finishing" of Smile in terms of completing a recording and a live concert arrangement, it's NOT finishing SMile along the lines of what Brian and Van Dyke were doing in 67, at least IMO and some others in this thread.  Even Peter admits that the movement sequences and song choices in BWPS are not what would have been done in 66-67, they are modern creations (of whom?  Darian, Van Dyke, Brian, how much each contributed is also in contention, but you addressed that in your post).  And they are essentially sequences and song choices initially dictated by and framed around the live performance - obviously , fades wouldn't work in live performance.  Once they had completed the live performance arrangement, which was a tremendous effort for Brian, he (and Van Dyke and Darian) weren't about to try and reconceive the whole project, change the order and put in fades and try to "finish" the album as it would have been in 67.  The live performance became the recording.

 The live performance became the recording.


........that's a great point. The live performance became the recording, not the other way around, as we are usually used to. It was the path of least resistance, and when you're dealing with BW, that's a good thing. It could mean the difference between a finished product, or more unreleased sessions in the cabinet...

What is the Wonderful Tag? All I hear is a subtle ascending bass part at the end that, if anything, actually implies the movement into another song, or do you mean something else?

The only "Wonderful" tag that I'm aware of is the "mama mama mama" thing on Sea of Tunes. And I'm fairly  sure that isn't associated with the original version of Wonderful. Different key. I'm certain we don't know how "Wonderful" was going to end, and that makes it semi-unique among the Smile songs.

To me the Smile-era Wonderful has a fade, shorter than some some but a fade, it is not left open ended; the session tape shows it trails out like other fades [as I remember]  rather than end on a single mutual stop as do the sessions of the 2 or 3 movements within other Smile songs.

Yeah, I'm thinking of that "mama mama mama" part.  My point being that if the original version of Wonderful had a cold ending (the ascending bass bit) that could have transitioned into  something else, then why record a tag/fade later?  Jon is probably right that the Wonderful tag was for the January Wonderful rerecord.   Also, since we don't have a final Brian mix of the original, how do we know he wouldn't have faded it out before the final bass notes?

Dan Lega,
     Before you take the time to criticize somebody else's post, it might be a good idea to actually read that person's post - at least a little closer, which obviously you did not. No where in my post did I even mention the word sequence, much less that Jeff Foskett helped with the sequencing. I used the word WORK. You can read anything into that that you want, but don't put words in my mouth. It is possible, that after Darian (and Brian?) sequenced BWPS, and began working on the LIVE PRESENTATION, that Jeff Foskett ASSISTED in the live performance preparation, IN SOME WAY, even if it was just helping with the rehearsal of the material. Even though I haven't come up with the proof to satisfy you, is that too much of a stretch to think that Jeff did help out with the live presentation, which then became, note for note, the finished CD? He is one of the Brian Wilson Band leaders. You wouldn't argue that would you? And in Beautiful Dreamer, it appeared to me that David Leaf featured Jeff Foskett in a lot of the footage leading up to the concert.   

And SMILEY, you're an furo do burro who SHOULD page somebody else for help, because after reading your posts, you obviously have nothing constructive to say.   
     

I have plenty of constructive things to say, but if someone makes as many assertions and accusations and assumptions as you did in the first quote above, then I suppose there is nothing to say that's constructive, because they are all wrong. Like, pathetically wrong.   :o
Why, when in doubt, go for the most negative assumptions you can make? Brian put 5% into BWPS? That's a stretch and a half. And your Karoake accusation is not very nice. Why should I be nice when refuting it? It's a bit disingenuous to call everyone in Brian's camp a fraud and then get huffy when you're called on it.

Jeff Foskett, BTW, had medical problems during the SMiLE period.

But, hey, here's a constructive tip -- try knowing what you are talking about before making negative statements.

Smiley, talk about making negative statements...Karaoke exercise INDEED!!  The project a fraud??  Try knowing what you're talking about before making negative statements? Listen to yourself. You're not focused on this one.

That's an interesting psychological phenomena too, there... part of the BB's resistance and the tension within the group back in the day was that Brian was making music that was increasingly complicated to perform live, or couldn't supposedly be replicated live.  Now the word is out on whether or not Brian deep-sixed SMiLE because the boys didn't like it, or because Brian didn't like it, but either way,

t's kind of interesting that to get Brian's mind capable of finishing the album in 04, he first made sure to create an album that was capable of being performed live! Only then did he finish the SMiLE album.  Heh. 

Of course Brian toured 'Smile' with a 17 piece band.  In 1966 and 1967 the Beach Boys were still touring as a 5 piece (it was a year before supporting mucisians were added).   

And the 66/67 BBs [nor any other band as far as I know] never toured an entire album anyway, only the single and maybe one other album track.

kind of interesting that to get Brian's mind capable of finishing the album in 04, he first made sure to create an album that was capable of being performed live! Only then did he finish the SMiLE album.  Heh.   "


...I'll go you one better than that. When they performed Smile live in 04, there was no talk of an album from the live performance. Only after Brian felt comfortable with the material, did they probably propose laying down the live performance in a studio setting. Musicians there, arrangement and song order already worked out. Studio available. What a no-brainer. But Brian was the boss, and none of this would have happened if he had not given his wink and nod. Don't labor under the misconception that he was not listening to every note in every arrangement on every song on that cd, and giving his final approval. As they say, it's his name on the sign: "Brian Wilson......presents Smile"
 
 

     Look, when you say BWPS is "the *work* of Darian Sahanaja, Jeff Foskett, and some Van Dyke Parks" and that Brian's involvement was only 5% or less, and the project was a big fraud, then EVERYONE is going to think you mean that Jeff Foskett helped in the creation, e.g. sequencing and writing of new music and lyrics, for BWPS.   If you didn't mean that, then good.  But I don't see how you can write it like that and not expect it to be taken the wrong way. 

            Love and merci,   Dan Lega

Darian said Brian and Van Dyke worked hard on BWPS together..  arranging and rearranging over and over.. yet the album says "Produced and arranged by Brian Wilson."

Who knows.

Considering how awful their performances of Good Vibrations were at the time, I'd hate to see the 5-piece try SMiLE.

Even if they had released SMiLE the touring band would have carried on with the crappy 45 minute hit shows they were doing till 1970. They wouldn't have attempted it the same way they barely reconised Pet Sounds - or any of their LP tracks, until late 68 anyway if memory serves me.

The recent boot A Vocal Element with shows from Nov-Dec 1967 show the live band doing album tracks from Wild Honey as well as Pet Sounds material, and doing it pretty well.  Interestingly, no tracks from their most recent release, Smiley Smile, other than Good Vibrations.  No Heroes!

   It's no big deal, but Wild Honey came after Smiley Smile, so Wild Honey would have been their latest release.


          Love and merci,   Dan Lega

Also, too, Wild Honey was a LOT more basic than SMiLE. The Pet Sounds songs were stripped down a bit. If the SMiLE songs were performed then, they would've been stripped down, too, and ironically would've likely sounded like Smiley Smile.

I think the live band was great through the Beacago tour. The 60s shows were rough by today's standards but great for their era.

"It's no big deal, but Wild Honey came after Smiley Smile, so Wild Honey would have been their latest release"

Only Wild Honey hadn't been released yet - they introduce the songs as from their forthcoming album to be in the stores before Christmas.

     Oh, well that makes sense, then.  Thanks for clarifying!

              Love and merci,   Dan Lega

Just read through some (tho not all) of this thread.

Seems worth noting that the real gem of BWPS' sequencing is the second section.  "Wonderful" flowing into "A Song For Children" (ie, "Look") is just perfect (BTW, never noticed how much "Good Vibrations" are in there with the celeste part at the end) which then of course moves into "CITFOTM."  It's one of those things that when you've been listening to the boots forever you almost don't realize. 

Who did it, I dunno (my guess is that Darian was responsible for CITFOTM's turnaround at the end into "Surf's Up") -- but this part sounds like the way it was going to be presented back in '67.

What a cool thread. I haven't read it in years. I think a lot of good give and take was here.

I agree this was a really good thread. I too recently re-read it. It gets particularly interesting when Peter Reum weighs in with his belief that Brian always intended Smile to be a three movement suite. Definitely a controversial theory, but it'd be great if it were true.

Well, regardless of whether there was the intention to make it a three movement thing, there have always been three main themes to Smile:

1) Heroes and Villains -- Old West morality play, with good guys, bad guys and a big dose of how those battles drove the Westward Expansion
2) Loss of innocence -- from the loss of virginity (Wonderful) to the changing of the guard (Surf's Up)
3) Elements Suite

The thing that made Smile both interesting and hard to unravel absent a final product is that these themes pop up all over the place -- they're not isolated within their "section."  According to Andrew's book, there's a little H&V chant in the back of Wonderful, Look/SFC has Good Vibrations in it, etc.  As I said above, the transition from Wonderful's outro to Look/SFC's intro is so natural and obvious on BWPS it's kind of shocking to me I never noticed it before.

These three themes and how they interlock are what make Smile really resonate, IMO.  The upshot is just an incredibly profound yet whimsical meditation on America -- not only what had become (by '66-67 anyway), not only its failures (Bicycle Rider), but also its enduring potential.  Those themes have been explored since by others, but rarely as compellingly or lucidly as Brian and VDP did here.  Fans like us always knew that the music of Smile lived up to the legend -- but the real surprise about BWPS was that whatever Brian's final input was, and definitive or not, the final product actually managed to present that vision succinctly and coherently.

And I don't think any of us ever thought we'd live to see the day where we could say that.

Practically everything Peter writes is worth its weight in gold. I just wish more people on this board actually listened to him and weren't so dismissive.

Dream on.  ;D

I hear Mike Love needs a historian. Why don't you and Cam try out for that gig?

Mike's so incredible he needs no apologist. By the way, that reminds me of a conversation I had with him when he was dating that juice jug in 1970. He told me he never heard about three movements albums or anything like that.  :)

Then why the hell did I see you and Cam eating breakfast at the MIU cafeteria last year?

Someone done got himself butthurt.

Whatever happened to the Durrie Parks acetates?

Holy old topic, Batman!


Seriously, though, IIRC turns out nothing of real value was on them.

Didn't it turn out that it was just a safety of something still in the vaults?

Dre wins.

Yep, that's the go, apparently.

I recall one of the TSS players expressing (in writing or in interview) disappointment when he finally heard the acetates - but I can't remember/locate the source doc.

Andrew G. Doe once posted:
Durrie's acetates were auditioned: that nothing on the box was sourced from them should say something about what was found to be on them.