Was there any evidence "Wind Chimes" was Air?

[Cam Mott]

"Imo, he continued to book sessions April through July because he was recording sessions for a post-SMiLE album project and that album is Smiley Smile. "

Glad to see you made that IMO since the evidence to support this is very weak.

It's true, I was just trying to seem humble. 

[filledeplage]

Let's do something criminally dumb, and introduce logic into a BB scenario.

Beach Boy X (not Brian) tells Taylor Smile is scrapped. Given that Taylor was directly employed by the band as their publicist, does he...

a) run to his typewriter, hammer out the release and wire it to D&ME without delay, or...

b) call Brian to seek both confirmation and permission to publish ?

No-brainer: it's b). The problem is now, why would Brian allow that - unless it was true ?  Of course, there is...

c) Beach Boy X is indeed Brian.

Occam's razor.

Let's do something criminally dumb, and introduce logic into a BB scenario.

Beach Boy X (not Brian) Brian (not someone in the Beach Boys) tells Taylor Smile is scrapped. Given that Taylor was directly employed by the band as their publicist, does he...

a) run to his typewriter, hammer out the release and wire it to D&ME without delay, or...

b) call Brian one of the Beach Boys to seek both confirmation and permission to publish ?

No-brainer: it's b). The problem is now, why would Brian the Beach Boys allow that - unless it was true ?  Of course, there is...

c) Beach Boy X is indeed Brian. Taylor's source could indeed have been someone in the Beach Boys.

Occam's razor.

That makes no sense.  If Brian told Taylor, why would he have to confirm it with the other Beach Boys?  If Brian scraps it, it's scrapped - he's the producer and songwriter.

"If Taylor was working publicity for The Beach Boys, and the Beach Boys were arriving in the UK for a major tour, why would Taylor contact Brian for information on the tour when Brian wasn't involved in that tour at all? Related to that, if Taylor is set to publish a piece that says the Beach Boys' long-awaited album has been junked and will not come out, would it make sense or not for him to inform *them* their album has been scrapped and possibly get either a confirm or even a comment?"

What makes you think Taylor would have to contact Brian for info on the tour to have Brian tell him that the album is scrapped?  Taylor and Brian are in L.A., lots of opportunities to meet and talk on the phone.  There could be TWO events - Brian tells him it's scrapped, and he gets tour information (his job as PR guy) to relay to the UK press from whomever.  He writes up the tour info and adds in the scrapped announcement.  Not his job to inform the Boys Smile is scrapped, it's Brian's or Capitol's or somebody in BRI, not him.  

Bicyclerider - I must disagree.  They are working under BRI - and whatever that agreement rules the day that they set forth.  They went to great lengths in terms of risk, to break away for creative control.  Why would they not hang tight with major decisions?  They all put a lot on the line bucking the tide. This was the maiden voyage for Brother.

GF used the term "blissfully unaware" - and I am thinking that is exactly what happened.  They are no longer working under Murry.  They have set up a corporation, where they work things out. Important matters, and maybe some that were not so important.  

They are accountable to each other and in the furtherance of their business.  And it appears even now, no major changes without going to a vote.  Did they vote on this?  It does not look that way. We don't know what happened.  

There may be some evidence in board recordings, of concerts, where the guys are telling the audiences, as often happened, that "Smile was delayed" but a work-in-progress.  And enthusiastically so. These guys were enthusiastic about Smile.  They are great vocalists.  They are not that good as actors.    That would be 1967 going forward.

So, I am disinclined to latch onto a Priore "belief" that it is a named member.   Any "named" member, because they carried on as though it was a "go."  This is not their words, it is their conduct or actions that can show their intent and direction.

After Murry's checkered and underhanded chicanery with the record company, with Carlin even perhaps alluding to Brian not being paid as a producer, and Murry getting some hush money to keep the status quo. Murry's defrauding Mike of royalties that left Brian holding the bag, years later.  

So, there may have been some cooperative arrangement whereby there had to be some "consensus" of all members, either sitting down, or a phone vote, conducted by their attorney or other person charged with that duty.  And, maybe it isn't Murry, but another party who made this go down with Taylor. It was not in any band member's interest to pull the plug on their first album. Not Smiley but Smile.  

They didn't leave the States until the 29th/30th of April to go to Ireland and this Taylor bombshell is dropped on top of the TIKH Tour.  There are too many holes and inconsistencies in the story.  We need more facts and not "editorialized" facts.   None of this "I think" or "I believe"  from someone who wrote a book - you either know or your don't, and can back that up with evidence.  JMHO  

[guitarfool2002]

Taylor's source could have been someone in the Beach Boys.

Except that you disproved that, to your own satisfaction, at least, a few pages back. That's the problem with moving the goalposts - it's a bitch to move them back to where they were. 

Not moving any goalposts...exploring every possible scenario, this time plugging in the reverse variables into your logic and getting a different answer as a result. If you stand by that logic to conclude Brian tipped off Taylor, you could flip it around and conclude someone in the Beach Boys did it.

The question is why were they (the Beach Boys) either blissfully unaware or ignoring the matter entirely when talking to Altbach after the Poll Winners show?

Related: Was there a point man within the group who would be Taylor's main contact for info at that time? Domenic Priore believes that person was Mike. Thoughts?

Altbach ? You know something we don't ? 

As for Dom assuming it was Mike, I think the only possible response to that is "well, he would, wouldn't he ?". Others have made the valid point that, as Brian was the man with all the toys, it's reasonable to assume it was him. Some feel it was Murry. The trick is not to pick an answer, then work back from it, but to scout around for that which might indicate an answer. Sadly, Derek is no longer with us, so I asked the other guy, and he said "no".

BTW, I knew I saw May 2nd as the given date for the "scrapped" article, and eventually, I remembered where - in David Leaf's book.

Altham/Altbach, Paul Williams/Paul Robbins, Studer/Scully...it all starts to blur together sometimes! Yes, *Altham* for the record.

What would be most enlightening is to find out from Domenic what info he used to base those statements from, unless it's implied he either made it up or pulled it out of thin air, which I doubt he did. He had to be going on something he felt was legit in order to publish (and repeat in interviews) his thought that Mike was working with Taylor on the band's PR at this time.

Leaf's date was wrong, no other way to say it.  

And as another poster I see asked as well, who then did Mike say was the source of the "scrapped" info if he was asked? He says he wasn't, so who does he know (or even believe) was the source? Did Taylor pull such a blockbuster announcement out of thin air and publish it without clarification from the band he was representing?

[Theydon Bois]

Sadly, Derek is no longer with us, so I asked the other guy, and he said "no".

I think the only possible response to that is "well, he would, wouldn't he ?".

(NB For what it's worth, I'm inclined, on the balance of probabilities, to believe Mike on this one, with the caveat that the timeline doesn't really make a lot of sense whoever you assume Taylor's source was.  But I'm uncomfortable with the idea of treating Mike as an unimpeachable witness while every other piece of witness evidence in the Smile saga gets stuck under the microscope in search of agendas, biases or factual errors.)

[Cam Mott]

Let's do something criminally dumb, and introduce logic into a BB scenario.

Beach Boy X (not Brian) tells Taylor Smile is scrapped. Given that Taylor was directly employed by the band as their publicist, does he...

a) run to his typewriter, hammer out the release and wire it to D&ME without delay, or...

b) call Brian to seek both confirmation and permission to publish ?

No-brainer: it's b). The problem is now, why would Brian allow that - unless it was true ?  Of course, there is...

c) Beach Boy X is indeed Brian.

Occam's razor.

Let's do something criminally dumb, and introduce logic into a BB scenario.

Beach Boy X (not Brian) Brian (not someone in the Beach Boys) tells Taylor Smile is scrapped. Given that Taylor was directly employed by the band as their publicist, does he...

a) run to his typewriter, hammer out the release and wire it to D&ME without delay, or...

b) call Brian one of the Beach Boys to seek both confirmation and permission to publish ?

No-brainer: it's b). The problem is now, why would Brian the Beach Boys allow that - unless it was true ?  Of course, there is...

c) Beach Boy X is indeed Brian. Taylor's source could indeed have been someone in the Beach Boys.

Occam's razor.

That makes no sense.  If Brian told Taylor, why would he have to confirm it with the other Beach Boys?  If Brian scraps it, it's scrapped - he's the producer and songwriter.

"If Taylor was working publicity for The Beach Boys, and the Beach Boys were arriving in the UK for a major tour, why would Taylor contact Brian for information on the tour when Brian wasn't involved in that tour at all? Related to that, if Taylor is set to publish a piece that says the Beach Boys' long-awaited album has been junked and will not come out, would it make sense or not for him to inform *them* their album has been scrapped and possibly get either a confirm or even a comment?"

What makes you think Taylor would have to contact Brian for info on the tour to have Brian tell him that the album is scrapped?  Taylor and Brian are in L.A., lots of opportunities to meet and talk on the phone.  There could be TWO events - Brian tells him it's scrapped, and he gets tour information (his job as PR guy) to relay to the UK press from whomever.  He writes up the tour info and adds in the scrapped announcement.  Not his job to inform the Boys Smile is scrapped, it's Brian's or Capitol's or somebody in BRI, not him.  

I agree with Lou.

There is no disconnect between the Boys comments and the May 6 article, the Boys answered new product wasn't ready yet. It wasn't ready yet because Brian had scrapped it. Taylor makes it clear the Boys didn't know what was next and their comments make that clear too even on into July, as I pointed out earlier, Mike wasn't even aware as late as after the release of H&V that the album's name had been changed to Smiley Smile. Vosse and Anderle both claimed Brian didn't explain stuff to the Boys. Didn't Mike say something like he wasn't involved in the decision to scrap or even consulted about it?

Dom's belief is discredited. The real question is was his discredited conjecture solely based on the note (his own I presume) under the May 6 article in LLVS speculating that "This press release was ahead of it's time, as it coincides with the bastard release date of 'Then I Kissed Her'..."? Even that is discredited as the April 28th release date of the single was announced in an article in the April 22 issue of D&ME.

[Bicyclerider]

I want to savor this moment.  Cam and I agree on something!!!

[Cam Mott]

I want to savor this moment.  Cam and I agree on something!!!

(high five)

[guitarfool2002]

"I've got some tapes at home of the new tracks to be on the "Smile" LP which would blow your mind. All the ideas are new and Brian is coming up with fantastic ideas all the time"

Bruce as told to Altham, that interview at a gig sometime around May 8-10 1967, published in NME May 27 edition.

Was Bruce wrong?

[Andrew G. Doe]

He evidently was unaware that the album had been scrapped.

[guitarfool2002]

He and the group were unaware *after* Derek Taylor's D&ME piece in the May 6th issue hit by the time they gave the interview to Altham? No one gave them a copy? It wasn't brought to their attention? No one asked them about it after seeing Taylor's article?

I can't buy that without more proof.

EDIT: Keep in mind, the whole band was in the same room as Altham spoke with them, it was a group interview.

[The Shift]

He and the group were unaware *after* Derek Taylor's D&ME piece in the May 6th issue hit by the time they gave the interview to Altham? No one gave them a copy? It wasn't brought to their attention? No one asked them about it after seeing Taylor's article?

I can't buy that without more proof.

EDIT: Keep in mind, the whole band was in the same room as Altham spoke with them, it was a group interview.

"Whole band" = touring band? Or "whole band" = inc Brian?

(sorry, struggling to follow every aspect of this thread's minutia)

[Andrew G. Doe]

He and the group were unaware *after* Derek Taylor's D&ME piece in the May 6th issue hit by the time they gave the interview to Altham? No one gave them a copy? It wasn't brought to their attention? No one asked them about it after seeing Taylor's article?

I can't buy that without more proof.

EDIT: Keep in mind, the whole band was in the same room as Altham spoke with them, it was a group interview.

Your proof is staring you in the face.

[guitarfool2002]

He and the group were unaware *after* Derek Taylor's D&ME piece in the May 6th issue hit by the time they gave the interview to Altham? No one gave them a copy? It wasn't brought to their attention? No one asked them about it after seeing Taylor's article?

I can't buy that without more proof.

EDIT: Keep in mind, the whole band was in the same room as Altham spoke with them, it was a group interview.

Your proof is staring you in the face.

The band in the UK was unaware of an article that had been published in the UK (by their own paid publicist) which declared their album dead?

[filledeplage]

He and the group were unaware *after* Derek Taylor's D&ME piece in the May 6th issue hit by the time they gave the interview to Altham? No one gave them a copy? It wasn't brought to their attention? No one asked them about it after seeing Taylor's article?

I can't buy that without more proof.

EDIT: Keep in mind, the whole band was in the same room as Altham spoke with them, it was a group interview.

GF - is there a place for Anderle in this equation? Would he have had the authority, running Brother, to let Taylor run with this story? It appears in the timeline to have been a unique "Brother" window with Getting' Hungry, Heroes and Smiley, after which there was a "reversion" of sorts to Capitol.

With all these quotes that point to a "go" (and I question how it could even raised as disingenuous) from that week that blindsided them, on many levels, what is going on?

Each of them, while on tour, taken from different points, such as Dennis waiting for Carl, for the first Ireland show, is saying the exact same thing. It doesn't come from a "scripted" place, where they are warned as to a particular line of questioning from an interviewer.  They are all saying the same things, consistently, but not using the same "scripted" press-release verbiage that someone put in their mouths.  It is the old "stick to the same story" and the content is the same but not the verbiage.  They are expressing the same concept that Smile is a "go" differently.  They would have been quoted with "parroted" responses.

It still does not add up.  

 

[Cam Mott]

I don't know who knew what in the band but if they were unaware Brian had scrapped SMiLE by May 6, shame on Brian. As I said Mike didn't even know the title had changed as late as after H&V had been released but he did know that Brian had dumped some songs and changed some and added some songs to the album which was a process that started before they left for UK. So their statements are consistent with that.

[filledeplage]

I don't know who knew what in the band but if they were unaware Brian had scrapped SMiLE by May 6, shame on Brian. As I said Mike didn't even know the title had changed as late as after H&V had been released but he did know that Brian had dumped some songs and changed some and added some songs to the album which was a process that started before they left for UK. So their statements are consistent with that.

Cam - What if someone/someones "worked around" Brian?  

That was the least reasonable point, that particular week or so, to pull the plug on the project especially after Inside Pop.    

Surf's Up was blasted across the US.  And, now,  I wonder if the band even got to see it, between the sets of one of their shows or,  if there was a TV backstage  in that theatre?  

That would make it less likely for the band to pull the plug. The timing and momentum of that program would enhance the release. 

[Andrew G. Doe]

Impossible that they saw in while on tour.

[filledeplage]

Impossible that they saw in while on tour.

I think they were in NY and it was broadcast over the air.  

They did about a dozen songs. 45 minutes max.

Could they have given a courtesy tape in advance?

You could not buy that kind of primetime TV for publicity.  It was a giveaway.

[Andrew G. Doe]

My bad - I was thinking UK tour.

[guitarfool2002]

I don't know who knew what in the band but if they were unaware Brian had scrapped SMiLE by May 6, shame on Brian. As I said Mike didn't even know the title had changed as late as after H&V had been released but he did know that Brian had dumped some songs and changed some and added some songs to the album which was a process that started before they left for UK. So their statements are consistent with that.

Cam, there was a call earlier in this discussion for documentation. Anyone who has LLVS can see a group of Capitol session documents for Smile.

Every one of the Smile sessions dating back to 1966 on those session sheets was logged under the project number 31-5526.

There is a sheet for Love To Say Dada, a session for May 16 1967, logged under project number 31-5526. That sheet also has names and details familiar to the Smile sessions which had come before as we've already mentioned.

If the "Smile" album had been scrapped and as you suggest Brian scrapped it (then told Taylor but the band wasn't informed), why was Brian still recording and turning in paperwork to Capitol under the same project number 31-5526 as he had used for Smile dating back months to 1966?

Who exactly was unaware the album had been scrapped if Brian handed in such a document to Capitol just over a week after something led Derek Taylor to declare the album scrapped?

[Cam Mott]

I believe that is also the Smiley Smile project number, he just kept using it.

[Jim V.]

He and the group were unaware *after* Derek Taylor's D&ME piece in the May 6th issue hit by the time they gave the interview to Altham? No one gave them a copy? It wasn't brought to their attention? No one asked them about it after seeing Taylor's article?

I can't buy that without more proof.

EDIT: Keep in mind, the whole band was in the same room as Altham spoke with them, it was a group interview.

GF - is there a place for Anderle in this equation? Would he have had the authority, running Brother, to let Taylor run with this story? It appears in the timeline to have been a unique "Brother" window with Getting' Hungry, Heroes and Smiley, after which there was a "reversion" of sorts to Capitol.

With all these quotes that point to a "go" (and I question how it could even raised as disingenuous) from that week that blindsided them, on many levels, what is going on?

Each of them, while on tour, taken from different points, such as Dennis waiting for Carl, for the first Ireland show, is saying the exact same thing. It doesn't come from a "scripted" place, where they are warned as to a particular line of questioning from an interviewer.  They are all saying the same things, consistently, but not using the same "scripted" press-release verbiage that someone put in their mouths.  It is the old "stick to the same story" and the content is the same but not the verbiage.  They are expressing the same concept that Smile is a "go" differently.  They would have been quoted with "parroted" responses.

It still does not add up.  

 

I think "filledthepage" needs to "use" a few "more" of those "quotations." Anybody "agree"?

[SMiLE Brian]

"Right" on that "idea" sweetdudejim!

[filledeplage]

He and the group were unaware *after* Derek Taylor's D&ME piece in the May 6th issue hit by the time they gave the interview to Altham? No one gave them a copy? It wasn't brought to their attention? No one asked them about it after seeing Taylor's article?

I can't buy that without more proof.

EDIT: Keep in mind, the whole band was in the same room as Altham spoke with them, it was a group interview.

GF - is there a place for Anderle in this equation? Would he have had the authority, running Brother, to let Taylor run with this story? It appears in the timeline to have been a unique "Brother" window with Getting' Hungry, Heroes and Smiley, after which there was a "reversion" of sorts to Capitol.

With all these quotes that point to a "go" (and I question how it could even raised as disingenuous) from that week that blindsided them, on many levels, what is going on?

Each of them, while on tour, taken from different points, such as Dennis waiting for Carl, for the first Ireland show, is saying the exact same thing. It doesn't come from a "scripted" place, where they are warned as to a particular line of questioning from an interviewer.  They are all saying the same things, consistently, but not using the same "scripted" press-release verbiage that someone put in their mouths.  It is the old "stick to the same story" and the content is the same but not the verbiage.  They are expressing the same concept that Smile is a "go" differently.  They would have been quoted with "parroted" responses.

It still does not add up.  
 

I think "filledthepage" needs to "use" a few "more" of those "quotations." Anybody "agree"?

sweetdudejim - Courtesy of Mr. Andrew Hickey there is an "ignore button" and I kindly invite you to use it.

If I use quotes, it is to cite or set my words apart from another person, a concept, and not to plagiarize another's work.    

And if I use a section of someone else's work, I use those punctuation marks to indicate that I am not the author.  

We are not here for a grammar lesson but to exchange ideas.  

Not everyone needs to agree.  

[guitarfool2002]

I don't know who knew what in the band but if they were unaware Brian had scrapped SMiLE by May 6, shame on Brian. As I said Mike didn't even know the title had changed as late as after H&V had been released but he did know that Brian had dumped some songs and changed some and added some songs to the album which was a process that started before they left for UK. So their statements are consistent with that.

Cam, there was a call earlier in this discussion for documentation. Anyone who has LLVS can see a group of Capitol session documents for Smile.

Every one of the Smile sessions dating back to 1966 on those session sheets was logged under the project number 31-5526.

There is a sheet for Love To Say Dada, a session for May 16 1967, logged under project number 31-5526. That sheet also has names and details familiar to the Smile sessions which had come before as we've already mentioned.

If the "Smile" album had been scrapped and as you suggest Brian scrapped it (then told Taylor but the band wasn't informed), why was Brian still recording and turning in paperwork to Capitol under the same project number 31-5526 as he had used for Smile dating back months to 1966?

Who exactly was unaware the album had been scrapped if Brian handed in such a document to Capitol just over a week after something led Derek Taylor to declare the album scrapped?

I believe that is also the Smiley Smile project number, he just kept using it.

Yes, true, but if it were scrapped...