Was the songwriting better without Brian..?

[lostbeachboy]

To me it is obvious The Beach Boys success spells Brian Wilson and (almost) Brian Wilson only. The Beach Boys would not exist without Brian's 1961 - 1966 period. This is the period the general public knows and cherishes. It contains the biggest hits + Pet Sounds/SMiLE. Besides Brian Dennis was by far the most competent songwriter of the Beach Boys. Carl wrote a few decent tracks. I would not say Al wrote any super good songs (correct me if I am wrong). Mike is not able to write/produce/arrange a song by himself - he needs all the help he can get. Big Sur is his best effort though.

Brian wrote the hits, Brian wrote the legendary albums Pet Sounds and SMiLE. He continued writing gems like 'Til I Die, but his output unfortunately waned post 1967 and so did the popularity of the Beach Boys. Brian's songwriting and the success of the Beach Boys go hand in hand.

I think it can not be any clearer.

You guys act like the other Beach Boys brought nothin to the table that matters toward a band being a functioning band that could achieve massive success as a 1960s pop band.

So, if Brian had been an only child and with no cousin named Mike Love, we surely still have The Beach Boys? Like any guys off the street would have made it happen?

It is interesting that Brian scored his first #1 without the Beach Boys...

Giggitty

[GhostyTMRS]

At first I thought this was kind of a jokey thread, but it does seem that a lot of users on this board really prefer the "Carl & The Passions: So Tough" and "Holland" periods where Brian only made cameo appearances. I'm not one of those people. I like those albums but they don't come close to anything before them IMO.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

To me it is obvious The Beach Boys success spells Brian Wilson and (almost) Brian Wilson only. The Beach Boys would not exist without Brian's 1961 - 1966 period. This is the period the general public knows and cherishes. It contains the biggest hits + Pet Sounds/SMiLE. Besides Brian Dennis was by far the most competent songwriter of the Beach Boys. Carl wrote a few decent tracks. I would not say Al wrote any super good songs (correct me if I am wrong). Mike is not able to write/produce/arrange a song by himself - he needs all the help he can get. Big Sur is his best effort though.

Brian wrote the hits, Brian wrote the legendary albums Pet Sounds and SMiLE. He continued writing gems like 'Til I Die, but his output unfortunately waned post 1967 and so did the popularity of the Beach Boys. Brian's songwriting and the success of the Beach Boys go hand in hand.

I think it can not be any clearer.

You guys act like the other Beach Boys brought nothin to the table that matters toward a band being a functioning band that could achieve massive success as a 1960s pop band.

So, if Brian had been an only child and with no cousin named Mike Love, we surely still have The Beach Boys? Like any guys off the street would have made it happen?

The contributions were not equal, but they were still contributions to the success of the band.

I'd say from 61 to about 65 Brian needed the Beach Boys as much as they needed him.

[MugginsXO]

If you believe that main songwriter/producer is equivalent with playing an instrument or singing a part, okay.

[Michael Edward Osbourne]

At first I thought this was kind of a jokey thread, but it does seem that a lot of users on this board really prefer the "Carl & The Passions: So Tough" and "Holland" periods where Brian only made cameo appearances. I'm not one of those people. I like those albums but they don't come close to anything before them IMO.

Completely agree

[lostbeachboy]

As much as I love the fun in the sun era, I think from pet sounds to holland is ethereal. Not saying I like everything but I'm partial to that stuff.

[CenturyDeprived]

To me it is obvious The Beach Boys success spells Brian Wilson and (almost) Brian Wilson only. The Beach Boys would not exist without Brian's 1961 - 1966 period. This is the period the general public knows and cherishes. It contains the biggest hits + Pet Sounds/SMiLE. Besides Brian Dennis was by far the most competent songwriter of the Beach Boys. Carl wrote a few decent tracks. I would not say Al wrote any super good songs (correct me if I am wrong). Mike is not able to write/produce/arrange a song by himself - he needs all the help he can get. Big Sur is his best effort though.

Brian wrote the hits, Brian wrote the legendary albums Pet Sounds and SMiLE. He continued writing gems like 'Til I Die, but his output unfortunately waned post 1967 and so did the popularity of the Beach Boys. Brian's songwriting and the success of the Beach Boys go hand in hand.

I think it can not be any clearer.

You guys act like the other Beach Boys brought nothin to the table that matters toward a band being a functioning band that could achieve massive success as a 1960s pop band.

So, if Brian had been an only child and with no cousin named Mike Love, we surely still have The Beach Boys? Like any guys off the street would have made it happen?

The contributions were not equal, but they were still contributions to the success of the band.

I'd say from 61 to about 65 Brian needed the Beach Boys as much as they needed him.

In many ways that's correct, especially in the touring aspects, but also I'd argue it's inaccurate if one takes into account songs like Don't Talk and Caroline, No.

I'd also say, talking strictly from a studio perspective, that (based on listening to the Don't Talk unused harmonies from the Pet Sounds Sessions) that if Brian, at his 60s vocal peak, recorded the vast majority of the BB vocals himself in that '61-'65 period, doing most harmonies and leads, that the band could still have had a similar level of success. And I say this with all due respect to the other members, whose voices and contributions I love and wouldn't trade for anything.  

[SMiLE Brian]

Pinder, you need OSD back!

[Sheriff John Stone]

To me it is obvious The Beach Boys success spells Brian Wilson and (almost) Brian Wilson only. The Beach Boys would not exist without Brian's 1961 - 1966 period. This is the period the general public knows and cherishes. It contains the biggest hits + Pet Sounds/SMiLE. Besides Brian Dennis was by far the most competent songwriter of the Beach Boys. Carl wrote a few decent tracks. I would not say Al wrote any super good songs (correct me if I am wrong). Mike is not able to write/produce/arrange a song by himself - he needs all the help he can get. Big Sur is his best effort though.

Brian wrote the hits, Brian wrote the legendary albums Pet Sounds and SMiLE. He continued writing gems like 'Til I Die, but his output unfortunately waned post 1967 and so did the popularity of the Beach Boys. Brian's songwriting and the success of the Beach Boys go hand in hand.

I think it can not be any clearer.

You guys act like the other Beach Boys brought nothin to the table that matters toward a band being a functioning band that could achieve massive success as a 1960s pop band.

So, if Brian had been an only child and with no cousin named Mike Love, we surely still have The Beach Boys? Like any guys off the street would have made it happen?

It is interesting that Brian scored his first #1 without the Beach Boys...

I Get Around (1964), Help Me, Rhonda (1965), Good Vibrations (1966). All #1s with Brian.
Kokomo (1988) #1 without Brian.

Maybe he was referring to "Surf's City" with Jan & Dean.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

To me it is obvious The Beach Boys success spells Brian Wilson and (almost) Brian Wilson only. The Beach Boys would not exist without Brian's 1961 - 1966 period. This is the period the general public knows and cherishes. It contains the biggest hits + Pet Sounds/SMiLE. Besides Brian Dennis was by far the most competent songwriter of the Beach Boys. Carl wrote a few decent tracks. I would not say Al wrote any super good songs (correct me if I am wrong). Mike is not able to write/produce/arrange a song by himself - he needs all the help he can get. Big Sur is his best effort though.

Brian wrote the hits, Brian wrote the legendary albums Pet Sounds and SMiLE. He continued writing gems like 'Til I Die, but his output unfortunately waned post 1967 and so did the popularity of the Beach Boys. Brian's songwriting and the success of the Beach Boys go hand in hand.

I think it can not be any clearer.

You guys act like the other Beach Boys brought nothin to the table that matters toward a band being a functioning band that could achieve massive success as a 1960s pop band.

So, if Brian had been an only child and with no cousin named Mike Love, we surely still have The Beach Boys? Like any guys off the street would have made it happen?

It is interesting that Brian scored his first #1 without the Beach Boys...

I Get Around (1964), Help Me, Rhonda (1965), Good Vibrations (1966). All #1s with Brian.
Kokomo (1988) #1 without Brian.

Maybe he was referring to "Surf's City" with Jan & Dean.

I was.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

To me it is obvious The Beach Boys success spells Brian Wilson and (almost) Brian Wilson only. The Beach Boys would not exist without Brian's 1961 - 1966 period. This is the period the general public knows and cherishes. It contains the biggest hits + Pet Sounds/SMiLE. Besides Brian Dennis was by far the most competent songwriter of the Beach Boys. Carl wrote a few decent tracks. I would not say Al wrote any super good songs (correct me if I am wrong). Mike is not able to write/produce/arrange a song by himself - he needs all the help he can get. Big Sur is his best effort though.

Brian wrote the hits, Brian wrote the legendary albums Pet Sounds and SMiLE. He continued writing gems like 'Til I Die, but his output unfortunately waned post 1967 and so did the popularity of the Beach Boys. Brian's songwriting and the success of the Beach Boys go hand in hand.

I think it can not be any clearer.

You guys act like the other Beach Boys brought nothin to the table that matters toward a band being a functioning band that could achieve massive success as a 1960s pop band.

So, if Brian had been an only child and with no cousin named Mike Love, we surely still have The Beach Boys? Like any guys off the street would have made it happen?

The contributions were not equal, but they were still contributions to the success of the band.

I'd say from 61 to about 65 Brian needed the Beach Boys as much as they needed him.

In many ways that's correct, especially in the touring aspects, but also I'd argue it's inaccurate if one takes into account songs like Don't Talk and Caroline, No.

I'd also say, talking strictly from a studio perspective, that (based on listening to the Don't Talk unused harmonies from the Pet Sounds Sessions) that if Brian, at his 60s vocal peak, recorded the vast majority of the BB vocals himself in that '61-'65 period, doing most harmonies and leads, that the band could still have had a similar level of success. And I say this with all due respect to the other members, whose voices and contributions I love and wouldn't trade for anything.  

I agree, and that's why I said 61 to 65: pre Pet Sounds....

[Mikie]

At first I thought this was kind of a jokey thread, but it does seem that a lot of users on this board really prefer the "Carl & The Passions: So Tough" and "Holland" periods where Brian only made cameo appearances. I'm not one of those people. I like those albums but they don't come close to anything before them IMO.

I'm one of those who (with exception to Today & Pet Sounds) without a doubt think the band did a fantastic body of work between 1969 and 1973. I'm a big fan of the early 70's stuff, including C&TP and Holland. Brian may have done cameo appearances in the vocals to a few of those songs in that period, but he was still involved in the songwriting to an extent. And the rest of The Boys stepped up BIG time on those early 70's albums.

[GhostyTMRS]

At first I thought this was kind of a jokey thread, but it does seem that a lot of users on this board really prefer the "Carl & The Passions: So Tough" and "Holland" periods where Brian only made cameo appearances. I'm not one of those people. I like those albums but they don't come close to anything before them IMO.

I'm one of those who (with exception to Today & Pet Sounds) without a doubt think the band did a fantastic body of work between 1969 and 1973. I'm a big fan of the early 70's stuff, including C&TP and Holland. Brian may have done cameo appearances in the vocals to a few of those songs in that period, but he was still involved in the songwriting to an extent. And the rest of The Boys stepped up BIG time on those early 70's albums.

For me, I'll take everything from 1961 through SMiLE. It's unassailable work. Brian's in command and his evolution is fascinating.
My actual favorite period is 1967 through 1970. Brian's still heavily involved. The guys are also contributing great songs. Killer singles, etc.
For me, things start to fall apart around Surf's Up. CATP and Holland have some great songs on them but they (and Surf's Up..although I think it's a far superior album to the two that came after it) feel like patchwork collections of solo projects to me. That's not to diminish Carl and Dennis's contributions because they're stellar, but The Beach Boys sounds like a band without an identity on those two specific albums, which I view as a separate period unto itself.   

[GoodToMyBaby]

Carl and Dennis' songs and POB, as well as Disney Girls are as good as anything Brian ever did ...... But hey, they're all in the same band, so no harm done.

You must be kidding me. But hey, it's just one man's opinion, so no harm done.

Disney Girls is an all-time classic! Brian would be proud to have written it!

I didn't say better than anything Brian's done, just AS GOOD ..... But it's a mere one song vs countless awesome Brian stuff, so hey....

I remember hearing about a soundcheck during C50 Where they were rehearsing Disney Girls and about a minute into the song Brian shouted "Enough!" and that was the end of the song.

[lostbeachboy]

To me it is obvious The Beach Boys success spells Brian Wilson and (almost) Brian Wilson only. The Beach Boys would not exist without Brian's 1961 - 1966 period. This is the period the general public knows and cherishes. It contains the biggest hits + Pet Sounds/SMiLE. Besides Brian Dennis was by far the most competent songwriter of the Beach Boys. Carl wrote a few decent tracks. I would not say Al wrote any super good songs (correct me if I am wrong). Mike is not able to write/produce/arrange a song by himself - he needs all the help he can get. Big Sur is his best effort though.

Brian wrote the hits, Brian wrote the legendary albums Pet Sounds and SMiLE. He continued writing gems like 'Til I Die, but his output unfortunately waned post 1967 and so did the popularity of the Beach Boys. Brian's songwriting and the success of the Beach Boys go hand in hand.

I think it can not be any clearer.

You guys act like the other Beach Boys brought nothin to the table that matters toward a band being a functioning band that could achieve massive success as a 1960s pop band.

So, if Brian had been an only child and with no cousin named Mike Love, we surely still have The Beach Boys? Like any guys off the street would have made it happen?

It is interesting that Brian scored his first #1 without the Beach Boys...
[/



I know...

[Mikie]

Everything from 1961 through SMiLE. It's unassailable work. Brian's in command and his evolution is fascinating.

There's no doubt about that. No argument there.

1967 through 1970. Brian's still heavily involved.

Well........now that's debatable.

[GhostyTMRS]

If we're getting into the area of "Could Brian have done it with other guys?" ..well...maybe, but would it have been as good? Then again, that blend of voices is what makes The Beach Boys special. It's that blend that makes those great songs zoom off into the stratosphere. There have been countless imitators and Beach Boy solo projects but they all lack that blend which is impossible to duplicate. It sounds like being home again even if you don't have a home to go to.

Oh, and to address another subject mentioned in this thread: I love "Disney Girls"..Great track. I thought it was hokey and embarrassing when I was younger, but now that I'm older I cling to wistful sentiments like that like a koala bear clip.

[GhostyTMRS]

Everything from 1961 through SMiLE. It's unassailable work. Brian's in command and his evolution is fascinating.

There's no doubt about that. No argument there.

1967 through 1970. Brian's still heavily involved.

Well........now that's debatable.

Brian's not heavily involved in the Wild Honey, Friends and Sunflower albums as opposed to his meager songwriting credits on CATP and Holland?

[bluesno1fann]

At first I thought this was kind of a jokey thread, but it does seem that a lot of users on this board really prefer the "Carl & The Passions: So Tough" and "Holland" periods where Brian only made cameo appearances. I'm not one of those people. I like those albums but they don't come close to anything before them IMO.

I'm one of those who (with exception to Today & Pet Sounds) without a doubt think the band did a fantastic body of work between 1969 and 1973. I'm a big fan of the early 70's stuff, including C&TP and Holland. Brian may have done cameo appearances in the vocals to a few of those songs in that period, but he was still involved in the songwriting to an extent. And the rest of The Boys stepped up BIG time on those early 70's albums.

Yeah, same here for the most part. Today! to SMiLE was Brian at their prime, while 20/20 to Holland were the rest of the members at their prime.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Okay, time to throw my hat in there...

In my honest opinion, Brian is the greatest living songwriter. Period. I'd rather listen to his 'worst' vocals than just about anybody else at their best.  Production-wise, there was none better in his time (can't compare him to any one else who came in after the advent of stereo). That said...to act like he could have been just as big without the rest of the band is ludicrous. It's not taking anything away from Brian to say that, either. It was the perfect blend of harmonies married with music that was leaps and bounds above anything else out there with lyrics that captured the youth and produced by a genius.  It was the perfect combination at the perfect time. Each of the rest of the band could have been the most talented member in any other band. To attempt to diminish the other members is to attempt to diminish Brian's genius...Brian chose them, wrote parts for them, produced them. They learned from the master, and Dennis grew into a musical genius himself (and in a different manner from Brian. Each was a first rate singer as well.

They were all awesome, and Brian was just a bit awesome-r.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Also, Brian's own contributions from 1967-1972 just so happen to be my favorite of his, or anybody else, for that matter.

[Mikie]

Everything from 1961 through SMiLE. It's unassailable work. Brian's in command and his evolution is fascinating.

There's no doubt about that. No argument there.

1967 through 1970. Brian's still heavily involved.

Well........now that's debatable.

Brian's not heavily involved in the Wild Honey, Friends and Sunflower albums as opposed to his meager songwriting credits on CATP and Holland?

I'd say his involvement started diminishing, especially as a producer, around 1968. This is when his mental state started going South.

[GhostyTMRS]

Everything from 1961 through SMiLE. It's unassailable work. Brian's in command and his evolution is fascinating.

There's no doubt about that. No argument there.

1967 through 1970. Brian's still heavily involved.

Well........now that's debatable.

Brian's not heavily involved in the Wild Honey, Friends and Sunflower albums as opposed to his meager songwriting credits on CATP and Holland?

I'd say his involvement started diminishing, especially as a producer, around 1968. This is when his mental state started going South.

I agree but he was still contributing a lot of good material up through 1970. He's starting to leave the picture with the Surf's Up album and by 1972 we were lucky to get maybe 2 songs on an album (although admittedly Mt. Vernon & Fairway was supposed to be a major contribution that was eventually relegated to a bonus 45).

[18thofMay]

This thread is a complete waste of time.

[Mikie]

Why?  'Cause you can't contribute anything worthwhile to it?