California Girls

[dennyschild]

In 1985 David Lee Roth did California Girls. Did he have to get permission from the Beach Boy's to put this song on his album. Did the Beach Boy's get a profit of the sales.

[Andrew G. Doe]

In 1985 David Lee Roth did California Girls. Did he have to get permission from the Beach Boy's to put this song on his album. Did the Beach Boy's get a profit of the sales.

Others better versed in these things will correct me, but as long as you pay the requisite rights, anyone can cover anything... as long as you don't make a substantial change. If you do that, you should get the songwriter's OK (two instances, both regarding Paul Simon, I've just realised: Karen Carpenter was unhappy singing "crapped out" in her version of "Still Crazy After All These Years", so she got in touch with PS, and he personally changed to something less racy. However, he was quite put out when The Bangles omitted a line from their cover of "Hazy Shade Of Winter" without asking).

As composers of the song, Mike & Brian should get a slice of the publishing rights... had Murry not signed those rights away in 1969. 

[D409]

Who actually receives royalties now on the Sea Of Tunes catalogue that Murry signed away ? Haven't the rights to those songs reverted to Mike and Brian as a result of one of Mike's many lawsuits ?

[Custom Machine]

In 1985 David Lee Roth did California Girls. Did he have to get permission from the Beach Boy's to put this song on his album. Did the Beach Boy's get a profit of the sales.

As composers of the song, Mike & Brian should get a slice of the publishing rights... had Murry not signed those rights away in 1969. 

As a clarification, while Murry Wilson did sell the publishing rights in 1969, Brian and Mike, as the songwriters, still get songwriter royalties from the publisher.

Also should add that Carl Wilson does a wonderful and very prominent backing vocal on David Lee Roth's version of Calif Girls, giving it a true Beach Boys feel.

[stack-o-tracks]

Who actually receives royalties now on the Sea Of Tunes catalogue that Murry signed away ? Haven't the rights to those songs reverted to Mike and Brian as a result of one of Mike's many lawsuits ?

I could've sworn I read that they were able to get back the rights to those songs somewhere. Maybe it was different songs?

I remember something about Brian either not actually signing it or not being "of sound mind" when he signed it.

[Andrew G. Doe]

In 1985 David Lee Roth did California Girls. Did he have to get permission from the Beach Boy's to put this song on his album. Did the Beach Boy's get a profit of the sales.

As composers of the song, Mike & Brian should get a slice of the publishing rights... had Murry not signed those rights away in 1969. 

As a clarification, while Murry Wilson did sell the publishing rights in 1969, Brian and Mike, as the songwriters, still get songwriter royalties from the publisher.

Thanks for that - I wasn't entirely sure.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Who actually receives royalties now on the Sea Of Tunes catalogue that Murry signed away ? Haven't the rights to those songs reverted to Mike and Brian as a result of one of Mike's many lawsuits ?

I could've sworn I read that they were able to get back the rights to those songs somewhere. Maybe it was different songs?

I remember something about Brian either not actually signing it or not being "of sound mind" when he signed it.

Brian got a one-time lump sum of several million dollars, but he didn't get the publishing back.

[Rocker]

Who actually receives royalties now on the Sea Of Tunes catalogue that Murry signed away ? Haven't the rights to those songs reverted to Mike and Brian as a result of one of Mike's many lawsuits ?

I could've sworn I read that they were able to get back the rights to those songs somewhere. Maybe it was different songs?

I remember something about Brian either not actually signing it or not being "of sound mind" when he signed it.

Brian got a one-time lump sum of several million dollars, but he didn't get the publishing back.

It's unbelievable how much money Brian lost and continues to lose thanks to Murry selling the catalogue.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Who actually receives royalties now on the Sea Of Tunes catalogue that Murry signed away ? Haven't the rights to those songs reverted to Mike and Brian as a result of one of Mike's many lawsuits ?

I could've sworn I read that they were able to get back the rights to those songs somewhere. Maybe it was different songs?

I remember something about Brian either not actually signing it or not being "of sound mind" when he signed it.

Brian got a one-time lump sum of several million dollars, but he didn't get the publishing back.

It's unbelievable how much money Brian lost and continues to lose thanks to Murry selling the catalogue.

Not just Brian - Mike lost some serious money too.

[Rocker]

Who actually receives royalties now on the Sea Of Tunes catalogue that Murry signed away ? Haven't the rights to those songs reverted to Mike and Brian as a result of one of Mike's many lawsuits ?

I could've sworn I read that they were able to get back the rights to those songs somewhere. Maybe it was different songs?

I remember something about Brian either not actually signing it or not being "of sound mind" when he signed it.

Brian got a one-time lump sum of several million dollars, but he didn't get the publishing back.

It's unbelievable how much money Brian lost and continues to lose thanks to Murry selling the catalogue.

Not just Brian - Mike lost some serious money too.

Of course. Didn't mean to forget him.

[guitarfool2002]

You can go online to see the inner workings of who gets what, although there is a lot of turmoil right now based on the digital media, and who gets paid for downloads, YouTube, website hits, streaming audio, etc. The publishing business was turned upside down by this and I don't think they are ready for it even now.

If you want to cover a song, as Andrew said, you go to a place like the Harry Fox Agency, who administers the useage and rights for songs. They'll quote you a fee depending on how you want to use the song, which you can sign a contract and release and then use the song! Some songs are cheap, some very expensive. Harry Fox then makes sure the proper channels get compensated.

Then you have BMI and ASCAP, which are songwriting and publishing groups who actually record and catalog the use and royalty payments for songs being broadcast, sold, or performed. Even if a songwriter does not own publishing for the song, as with Sea Of Tunes, their group like BMI in the Beach Boys' case will make sure they get royalties every time the song is played. I don't know how BMI works, because I'm a member of ASCAP, but they send you a statement based on the songs you registered with them, and how many times that song was played in that period of time.

They used to base this on sampling airplay in different markets, where radio stations have to log a song every time it's played, and a performance venue has to pay yearly fees to ASCAP or BMI when they charge audiences to hear a live show using music which is under ASCAP or BMI. The internet changed all of that, although some internet radio stations still do log songs they play so the right people at least get something for their work being used.

So every time an oldies station plays "California Girls", it should have been logged and after that period BMI would tabulate how many airplays it received on average and the songwriters get their payment, even if someone else owns the publishing, and they would have been paid too as a separate interest. The record companies also have contracts with the performers, but that's old fashioned now. iTunes basically pays the artist about one penny for every song sold. Total joke, that is.

And the fees for using a hit song in the media can be huge, which is why some lower-budget television shows won't use original songs and will use soundalikes instead - it saves a lot of money, and some people can't tell the difference.

There is more to it, much more and very complex, which is why ASCAP and BMI hold seminars and have help lines for people like me who have questions! 

[Jon Stebbins]

In 1985 David Lee Roth did California Girls. Did he have to get permission from the Beach Boy's to put this song on his album. Did the Beach Boy's get a profit of the sales.

AGD is right, you don't "need" permission to record and release someone else's song. There is a business formula in place through BMI or Ascap, publishing companies and major record lablels where royalties and fees are automatically distributed from sales and profits generated through airings of said recording. I don't know if this will load here, but i attempted to paste in a rights/royalties flow chart which helps explain how the money travels.

[ReggieDunbar]

But to go back to the orginal question...
David Lee Roths version features Carl on backing vocals... which in my world counts as a permission good as any!
//RD

[Rocker]

But to go back to the orginal question...
David Lee Roths version features Carl on backing vocals... which in my world counts as a permission good as any!
//RD

And Brian is a fan of Roth's version and in concert even let Foskett sing a "I dig the girls....whao" in DLR's style.

I wonder how much pain it is for Brian (and Mike) not to own the songs. Don't know how many of you know about John Fogerty's case, but he didn't own his songs for what.... 30 years...? And he was very hurt, had mental problems (I guess depression) and didn't play them live for a long time.

[guitarfool2002]

In 1985 David Lee Roth did California Girls. Did he have to get permission from the Beach Boy's to put this song on his album. Did the Beach Boy's get a profit of the sales.

AGD is right, you don't "need" permission to record and release someone else's song. There is a business formula in place through BMI or Ascap, publishing companies and major record lablels where royalties and fees are automatically distributed from sales and profits generated through airings of said recording. I don't know if this will load here, but i attempted to paste in a rights/royalties flow chart which helps explain how the money travels.

Didn't I say that? 

If anyone is interested for their own music, I'm a member of ASCAP as a publisher and songwriter (far from successful, waiting on the big break, etc... ), and I'd be happy to answer any questions I didn't already address in my post if anyone is interested.

Just search Harry Fox Agency and you'll get the lowdown on fees: harryfox.com That's where you pay to cover a song legally.

[guitarfool2002]

I wonder how much pain it is for Brian (and Mike) not to own the songs. Don't know how many of you know about John Fogerty's case, but he didn't own his songs for what.... 30 years...? And he was very hurt, had mental problems (I guess depression) and didn't play them live for a long time.

I forget if Fogerty is BMI or ASCAP but I remember him saying that he was thankful he was a member so he'd still collect payments when his songs were played, as a songwriter member of the organization, no matter what was happening in the court battles over his contracts and publishing.

Brian is BMI, I believe - no matter what happens with Sea Of Tunes or lawsuits or whatever, he gets paid whenever one of his songs is played and logged in. ASCAP and BMI collect all the fees and divide them up among their members.

[dennyschild]

But to go back to the orginal question...
David Lee Roths version features Carl on backing vocals... which in my world counts as a permission good as any!
//RD

I never knew Carl 's vocals were on David Lee Roth's California girls. I learn some thing new every day.

[Rocker]

I wonder how much pain it is for Brian (and Mike) not to own the songs. Don't know how many of you know about John Fogerty's case, but he didn't own his songs for what.... 30 years...? And he was very hurt, had mental problems (I guess depression) and didn't play them live for a long time.

I forget if Fogerty is BMI or ASCAP but I remember him saying that he was thankful he was a member so he'd still collect payments when his songs were played, as a songwriter member of the organization, no matter what was happening in the court battles over his contracts and publishing.

Brian is BMI, I believe - no matter what happens with Sea Of Tunes or lawsuits or whatever, he gets paid whenever one of his songs is played and logged in. ASCAP and BMI collect all the fees and divide them up among their members.

But only as a songwriter, right? And money-wise there's a lot more to make if you own the song (and we're talking about extremely big songs) afaik. Anyway, Brian makes a good livin' but still, they're his (and Mike's) songs

Fogerty is BMI, too
http://www.bmi.com/news/entry/547481

[guitarfool2002]

I wonder how much pain it is for Brian (and Mike) not to own the songs. Don't know how many of you know about John Fogerty's case, but he didn't own his songs for what.... 30 years...? And he was very hurt, had mental problems (I guess depression) and didn't play them live for a long time.

I forget if Fogerty is BMI or ASCAP but I remember him saying that he was thankful he was a member so he'd still collect payments when his songs were played, as a songwriter member of the organization, no matter what was happening in the court battles over his contracts and publishing.

Brian is BMI, I believe - no matter what happens with Sea Of Tunes or lawsuits or whatever, he gets paid whenever one of his songs is played and logged in. ASCAP and BMI collect all the fees and divide them up among their members.

But only as a songwriter, right? And money-wise there's a lot more to make if you own the song (and we're talking about extremely big songs) afaik. Anyway, Brian makes a good livin' but still, they're his (and Mike's) songs

Fogerty is BMI, too
http://www.bmi.com/news/entry/547481

Only as a songwriter, correct as far as I know. That's still a nice chunk of change considering how many movies about the 60's one of Fogerty's songs has been used in, and how many times CCR is on the radio.

Song publishing is like buying shares of stock: there was just something about Philadelphia Phillie Jimmy Rollins having invested some of his money into song publishing, and one of his investments hit very big: Justin Beiber had a hit song with one of Jimmy's! No joke. I compare it to a small family business hitting it big, going public, and being bought out by a larger corporation. The family aspect is gone, but they got paid for it.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Every time, say, "Good Vibrations" is played, yes, Brian gets paid, as composer of said choon (I was once told he also gets royalties for being a performer, the producer and the arranger - is that so ?)... but the serious money is in the publishing, and he doesn't get a single cent of that. I've seen it written that Murry's under the counter deal has cost Brian something like $35 million to date. Think how many commercials have used - and continue to use - Beach Boys songs.

[guitarfool2002]

Every time, say, "Good Vibrations" is played, yes, Brian gets paid, as composer of said choon (I was once told he also gets royalties for being a performer, the producer and the arranger - is that so ?)... but the serious money is in the publishing, and he doesn't get a single cent of that. I've seen it written that Murry's under the counter deal has cost Brian something like $35 million to date. Think how many commercials have used - and continue to use - Beach Boys songs.

The business has changed so much even in the past 5 years, it's hard to know what kind of deal a guy like Brian is sitting on from "the good ol' days" when record labels still paid artists!

As a producer, yes I can see that if he has "points" on a given album, song, etc. Producers working on a big project even today will negotiate these points on album sales so they can forgo a big payday up front yet continue to receive payments based on sales how ever many years the music sells. Producers who worked on albums that are big sellers going back 40 years can still receive large checks if they signed the right papers.

Arrangers getting royalties: That is a gray area, I'm not aware of an arranger getting royalties but it depends on what kind of a contract was signed. Arrangers used to get paid so much scale for their score if they were union, paid by the page whatever the scale was, etc, but who knows if a deal wasn't struck for Brian to get points as arranger too. Performers at least in today's standard make money touring and selling merchandise after they pay the label back, as far as getting paid for their performance on a recording into the future it would be hard to tell but it doesn't happen much today.

Publishing is the real bread and butter, absolutely!

[adamghost]

Everything that's been written here is basically correct...Federal law dictates these things, which is both the reason why songwriter's income has not been chipped away by the crooked music biz, and why generally it's easy to do a cover song provided the proper channels are gone through.  However, it gets trickier if the song is not administered by Harry Fox.  We never could have done LONG PROMISED ROAD without Alan Boyd's help because at that time the Beach Boys' publishing was in a bunch of different places and not all of them were administered through Harry Fox.  Also, if you are the FIRST publisher of a song (as we were with a couple of songs on that album) you need the permission of the songwriters.  It's a stricter standard than just covering it.

I've also run into trouble a couple of other times.  Once I covered a They Might Be Giants song that they cowrote with a friend of theirs who had no other songwriting credits.  It turned out that his third of the song was not administered by anybody at all through a publishing clerical oversight.  I wound up actually calling TMBG's manager to get their permission to do the song.  I still owe the guy $20.

Another time I covered a song by someone I knew personally, but the release of the song was a little sketchy (indie label) and so it wasn't clear who owned the publishing.  I did not want to get them in trouble in case there were any contracts pending that they were trying to get around, but I could also not get ahold of them personally.  In that case, there is a special procedure where you file with the Library of Congress and pay a fee to say that you could not get ahold of the songwriter, that you're going to cover the song anyway, and if you ever find them you will pay them what you owe them.  I had gone through this process and got clearance when I got ahold of the songwriter through conventional means and sent them the check.

So the bottom line is that you can cover anybody's song provided you pay them the requisite mechanical royalties (or obtain a waiver) and you go through the right paperwork with the publisher.  For most songs that's easy but if the publisher is not administered through Harry Fox, it can get tricky.  And it's absolutely true that the digital era has complicated everything, which is one of the main reasons I don't have my catalog (including LONG PROMISED ROAD) up on ITunes...I want the dust to settle first.

[guitarfool2002]

There are still disputes among ASCAP and BMI members regarding how airplay or the old term "needledrops" are logged and calculated, where cases of bands who have collected a substantial internet/online following see the credits not measuring up to their own records of how many downloads, plays, etc a certain song received. It's really bizarre and kind of sad how fast things moved and yet the old standards for selling albums might still be used in the digital age. I still think it is the biggest rip-off for iTunes to pay the artist roughly one cent for every download which costs buyers 99 cents to 1.29. But that's the modern age.

With Harry Fox Agency, there was also a provision that you only needed to pay the standard fee if you planned to print and sell more than 2,500 copies of the album containing the song in question. Not only has the internet in the past few years alone changed all of that, but it was always a case of how many local bands pressing their own CD would pay for more than 1,000 copies anyway?

It's good to have a lawyer if any of this comes up 

[Jon Stebbins]

Saying that publishing outweighs songwriting, or is somehow more important, isn't exactly the case from my personal experience. I've been a BMI songwriter for nearly 30 years, and I also own some of the publishing on the things I wrote as well. None of it meant much until a song that I co-wrote and recorded appeared in an episode of a prime time TV series in 2006 which has since gone into syndication all over the world. The initial payment was substantial for master use, songwriting and publishing, and every time that episode plays anywhere I get paid. Every quarter a check arrives from BMI the for songwriting. Every six months a check arrives from the publishing administrator for the publishing. The formula is two equal pay outs, one for publishing one for songwriting. Lets say each starts at 100%, so you have 100% publishing/100% songwriting. Two income streams. The co-writer of the song and myself share 50% each of the songwriting half. That's simple. The publishing half is more complicated. The administrator (Wixen Publishing) gets 25%, that's the deal i signed with Wixen in the early '80's. BTW Wixen negotiated our deal with the TV show and he definitely earned his money. The remaining 75% is split four ways between myself and three other band members who performed on the song. My band's orig. agreement was to split publishing equally between us regardless of who wrote the song. Therefore we get 18.75% each from the publishing 100%. So out of the 200% of money I get 68.75%...or approx. 34 cents on the dollar. Songwriting generates more for me only because I own a smaller share of the publishing. However if i did own equal shares of songwriting and publishing, and the deal had been struck exactly as is with the TV show, then I'd get an equal amount of money from both. I realize there are different scenarios where publishing can be huge, as in sheet music sales in the old days, but in this case songwriting and publishing are equal.

[bgas]

Saying that publishing outweighs songwriting, or is somehow more important, isn't exactly the case from my personal experience. I've been a BMI songwriter for nearly 30 years, and I also own some of the publishing on the things I wrote as well. None of it meant much until a song that I co-wrote and recorded appeared in an episode of a prime time TV series in 2006 which has since gone into syndication all over the world. The initial payment was substantial for master use, songwriting and publishing, and every time that episode plays anywhere I get paid. Every quarter a check arrives from BMI the for songwriting. Every six months a check arrives from the publishing administrator for the publishing. The formula is two equal pay outs, one for publishing one for songwriting. Lets say each starts at 100%, so you have 100% publishing/100% songwriting. Two income streams. The co-writer of the song and myself share 50% each of the songwriting half. That's simple. The publishing half is more complicated. The administrator (Wixen Publishing) gets 25%, that's the deal i signed with Wixen in the early '80's. BTW Wixen negotiated our deal with the TV show and he definitely earned his money. The remaining 75% is split four ways between myself and three other band members who performed on the song. My band's orig. agreement was to split publishing equally between us regardless of who wrote the song. Therefore we get 18.75% each from the publishing 100%. So out of the 200% of money I get 68.75%...or approx. 34 cents on the dollar. Songwriting generates more for me only because I own a smaller share of the publishing. However if i did own equal shares of songwriting and publishing, and the deal had been struck exactly as is with the TV show, then I'd get an equal amount of money from both. I realize there are different scenarios where publishing can be huge, as in sheet music sales in the old days, but in this case songwriting and publishing are equal.

For your reaping of cash: What song, what show?