Songs that would have been on SMiLE in '67...

[Jeff]

It's interesting that no one is mentioning that I Wanna Be Around/Friday Night were labeled on the session sheets as belonging to I'mIn Great Shape.  I think it's a big mistake to simply dismiss that listing as an error, without any evidence that it was in fact erroneous.  Why couldn't the track consist, at least in part, of the "great shape" lyrics, followed by the tape explosion, I Wanna Be Around and the woodshop noises?  That order sounds to me like it works, and it was in that sequence on BWPS.  Without other evidence, it seems to me that is by far the most likely possibility.

As for the Barnyard Suite, I agree with the earlier poster that it was most likely the same as The Old Master Painter--meaning Barnyard, followed by The Old Master Painter, followed by You Are My Sunshine, followed by the cantina fade with YAMS overdubs.  Of course, Brian later used the cantina fade for H&V, so he may well have abandoned this track altogether, but I think the above sequence probably was used at one point in the process.

Not questioning, just curious: what is the evidence for barnyard going to old master painter?

I'm not sure there is any actual "evidence," unless you consider the placement of those tracks on BWPS to be evidence (and I don't).  When I said "most likely" and "probably," I may have been overstating things.  We do know that there was at one point to be a Barnyard Suite, and that a suite is four movements.  So we know it was to be Barnyard and three other pieces, but beyond that, it's really all supposition based on our ears.  Maybe Phoenix can weigh in.

[The Song Of The Grange]

 
My personal opinion, like I said, is pretty darn close to what Brian (and company) eventually gave us:

Our Prayer (unlisted), possibly with "Gee" although I prefer it without it
Heroes And Villains ("two part" version, listed as one track)
Do You Like Worms (with lyrics, pretty much as they appeared in 2004)
The Old Master Painter ("Barnyard medley", 2004 arrangement, finishing with "Barnshine")
Cabin Essence
Wonderful
Child Is Father Of The Man (with lyrics, at least similar to 2004 version)

Good Vibrations (probably NOT preceded by "You're Welcome", tho I put it there on my person version, as my one indulgence)
I'm In Great Shape (medley)
Vega-Tables (I never thought of transitioning the workshop sounds into those of the vegetables but I totally believe that was Brain's plan from at least some point in the 60's)
Wind Chimes (either here or after "GV", possibly merged in some way with "Holiday", which probably went the way of "Trombone Dixie" by the time the tracklist was sent to Capital)
The Elements (as I said, kicking of with the mislabeled "H&V Intro", possibly ending with the "Water Chant", so technically two themes, four songs, and intro, and an outro)
Surf's Up

I agree with the songs of course - they are the track list on the back cover - but would change the order on side one:

Prayer
Do you Like Worms
Heroes and Villains
Cabinessence
Old Master Painter
Wonderful
Child is Father

It's fun to speculate how Brian would have finished the unfinished songs in 67, but 'intro to Heroes" is NOT a mislabelling, the session sheet is pretty clear that is what the piece is, despite David Leaf putting it in front of Fire in 1988 but it does sound good there.  I'm in Great Shape is a mystery because we don't know what would be included besides the "I'm in the great shape of the open country" fragment we have from the Heroes demo for humble harv miller.  But I believe I'm in Great Shape would have been the "Barnyard Suite" since the true Barnyard with animal noises was also excised from Heroes along with Great Shape and of course fits thematically as well as musically.

Thank you for pointing this out. Intro to H&V was recorded after Fire (as we know it) was scrapped. It may have been a reworking of ideas from Mrs. O'Leary's Cow, but it came too late to be linked in any way to MOC. I think Intro to H&V was cut in January 1967? Maybe February? I'll have to check. MOC was abandoned by early December at the latest (see Jules Siegel's piece). It is another example of Smile fans like Leaf influencing BWPS.

[The Song Of The Grange]

It's interesting that no one is mentioning that I Wanna Be Around/Friday Night were labeled on the session sheets as belonging to I'mIn Great Shape.  I think it's a big mistake to simply dismiss that listing as an error, without any evidence that it was in fact erroneous.  Why couldn't the track consist, at least in part, of the "great shape" lyrics, followed by the tape explosion, I Wanna Be Around and the woodshop noises?  That order sounds to me like it works, and it was in that sequence on BWPS.  Without other evidence, it seems to me that is by far the most likely possibility.

As for the Barnyard Suite, I agree with the earlier poster that it was most likely the same as The Old Master Painter--meaning Barnyard, followed by The Old Master Painter, followed by You Are My Sunshine, followed by the cantina fade with YAMS overdubs.  Of course, Brian later used the cantina fade for H&V, so he may well have abandoned this track altogether, but I think the above sequence probably was used at one point in the process.

Don't forget that we have decent evidence that I Wanna Be Around/WoodShop was intended to go after Mrs. O'Leary's Cow as the symbolic "rebuilding". It is also interesting to note that there seem to be a handful of contemporary accounts of the Smile sessions were people seem to blur their descriptions of Barnyard and Woodshop together. Couple this with the evidence we have linking Barnyard to I'm In Great Shape (and the fact that the lyrics for the standard version of Old Master Painter speak of an old master artist who painted the "far away hills", "violets and the daffodills", and "the blue sky"), a hazy image starts to appear of some sort of Elements suite made up of many little parts. But musical sections were getting traded around so much, it is impossible to get a clear picture of any of this.

[Boiled Egg]

Couldn't the Fire/H&V 'intro' have been the Air segment?  It fits Brian's description of an instrumental; it fits his description of a piano piece; and it's covered in aerophones - whistles, bird calls, organs, etc.

[XY]

Couldn't the Fire/H&V 'intro' have been the Air segment?  It fits Brian's description of an instrumental; it fits his description of a piano piece; and it's covered in aerophones - whistles, bird calls, organs, etc.

That's an excellent discovery. And the high organ plays the ... I call it religious-sounding background chant-part from "Who Ran The Iron Horse". When that isn't air! Must be. The wind is blowing through the instruments.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Couldn't the Fire/H&V 'intro' have been the Air segment?  It fits Brian's description of an instrumental; it fits his description of a piano piece; and it's covered in aerophones - whistles, bird calls, organs, etc.

That's an excellent discovery. And the high organ plays the ... I call it religious-sounding background chant-part from "Who Ran The Iron Horse". When that isn't air! Must be. The wind is blowing through the instruments.

Interesting notion. However Brian's description - "a piano piece, an instrumental, no vocals - we never finished that" - doesn't fit in the least beyond it being an instrumental. Does he mention bells, whistles and the like  ?  No, he does not.

Don't forget that we have decent evidence that I Wanna Be Around/WoodShop was intended to go after Mrs. O'Leary's Cow as the symbolic "rebuilding". I

I've only ever found one source for that statement - the same person who still claims, in the face the evidence of AFM sheets, the recollection of the people involved and legal depositions, that she played bass on a slew on MoTown hits. By association, I don't regard that as 'decent evidence'.

[guitarfool2002]

Whether it means anything or not to the bigger picture, I've always been fascinated with what Brian had the "Posse" chanting: apart from Fire which was already a piece of music, you could argue he chanted the other elements: water, air (if we think of air as breathing), and whatever the vegetables concept meant to him at that time.

Also the Intro piece as a possibility for air: I always thought it could be edited to some old hurricane or severe weather newsreel footage and suggest a destructive notion of air, closer to Brian's sonic images of fire as scary. Air can be scary or gentle, fire can be an inferno or a candle...hmm.

[buddhahat]

Couldn't the Fire/H&V 'intro' have been the Air segment?  It fits Brian's description of an instrumental; it fits his description of a piano piece; and it's covered in aerophones - whistles, bird calls, organs, etc.

That's an excellent discovery. And the high organ plays the ... I call it religious-sounding background chant-part from "Who Ran The Iron Horse". When that isn't air! Must be. The wind is blowing through the instruments.

Interesting notion. However Brian's description - "a piano piece, an instrumental, no vocals - we never finished that" - doesn't fit in the least beyond it being an instrumental. Does he mention bells, whistles and the like  ?  No, he does not.

Don't forget that we have decent evidence that I Wanna Be Around/WoodShop was intended to go after Mrs. O'Leary's Cow as the symbolic "rebuilding". I

I've only ever found one source for that statement - the same person who still claims, in the face the evidence of AFM sheets, the recollection of the people involved and legal depositions, that she played bass on a slew on MoTown hits. By association, I don't regard that as 'decent evidence'.

I appreciate your point that there's no other evidence besides Kaye's, but claiming to have played on sessions is one thing - you can understand her motivation behind that. But to make up a story about Fire and I Wanna Be Around  - well ok she may well be mistaken and if it was Vegetables + Surf's Up then by all means write it off, but Fire and IWBA sound so right together, in so many ways: What else would Brian follow the bummer that is Fire with? It's Smile remember - so obviously a bit of humour to lighten things up and reassure us that it was just a joke after all!! Also musically IWBA follows Fire better than any other track. We have the soft thud, thud, thud of the falling timbers gently slowing the tempo of Fire, ready for the soothing lounge music to follow.

[JaredLekites]

Couldn't the Fire/H&V 'intro' have been the Air segment?  It fits Brian's description of an instrumental; it fits his description of a piano piece; and it's covered in aerophones - whistles, bird calls, organs, etc.

That's an excellent discovery. And the high organ plays the ... I call it religious-sounding background chant-part from "Who Ran The Iron Horse". When that isn't air! Must be. The wind is blowing through the instruments.

Interesting notion. However Brian's description - "a piano piece, an instrumental, no vocals - we never finished that" - doesn't fit in the least beyond it being an instrumental. Does he mention bells, whistles and the like  ?  No, he does not.

Don't forget that we have decent evidence that I Wanna Be Around/WoodShop was intended to go after Mrs. O'Leary's Cow as the symbolic "rebuilding". I

I've only ever found one source for that statement - the same person who still claims, in the face the evidence of AFM sheets, the recollection of the people involved and legal depositions, that she played bass on a slew on MoTown hits. By association, I don't regard that as 'decent evidence'.

Not to go off topic, but are you saying Carol didn't play on the Motown hits? She's certainly credited on Motown's Hitsville USA box set. During the mid-60s, Motown began recording certain artists and backing tracks in LA to accommodate busy touring schedules.  By the late 60s, Motown had started recording almost exclusively in Los Angeles rather than Detroit. Then around 1972, Motown moved to California and shut the Detroit studio down.

[bgas]

I've only ever found one source for that statement - the same person who still claims, in the face the evidence of AFM sheets, the recollection of the people involved and legal depositions, that she played bass on a slew on MoTown hits. By association, I don't regard that as 'decent evidence'.

Not to go off topic, but are you saying Carol didn't play on the Motown hits? She's certainly credited on Motown's Hitsville USA box set. During the mid-60s, Motown began recording certain artists and backing tracks in LA to accommodate busy touring schedules.  By the late 60s, Motown had started recording almost exclusively in Los Angeles rather than Detroit. Then around 1972, Motown moved to California and shut the Detroit studio down.

Just for fun, why don't you list the songs she's credited for on the box set...

[Andrew G. Doe]

Couldn't the Fire/H&V 'intro' have been the Air segment?  It fits Brian's description of an instrumental; it fits his description of a piano piece; and it's covered in aerophones - whistles, bird calls, organs, etc.

That's an excellent discovery. And the high organ plays the ... I call it religious-sounding background chant-part from "Who Ran The Iron Horse". When that isn't air! Must be. The wind is blowing through the instruments.

Interesting notion. However Brian's description - "a piano piece, an instrumental, no vocals - we never finished that" - doesn't fit in the least beyond it being an instrumental. Does he mention bells, whistles and the like  ?  No, he does not.

Don't forget that we have decent evidence that I Wanna Be Around/WoodShop was intended to go after Mrs. O'Leary's Cow as the symbolic "rebuilding". I

I've only ever found one source for that statement - the same person who still claims, in the face the evidence of AFM sheets, the recollection of the people involved and legal depositions, that she played bass on a slew on MoTown hits. By association, I don't regard that as 'decent evidence'.

Not to go off topic, but are you saying Carol didn't play on the Motown hits? She's certainly credited on Motown's Hitsville USA box set. During the mid-60s, Motown began recording certain artists and backing tracks in LA to accommodate busy touring schedules.  By the late 60s, Motown had started recording almost exclusively in Los Angeles rather than Detroit. Then around 1972, Motown moved to California and shut the Detroit studio down.

I am saying exactly that, and I am not alone in this: no-one at Hitsville ever recalls seeing her there, her name isn't on the AFM sheets, and one track she claims credit for - "I Was Made To Love Her" - was watched from composition to shipping the singles by the composer, arranger & producer of same, Henry Cosby, who singed an affidavit stating that the bassist was James Jamerson. Her studio logs, which I gather are meticulously kept, make no mention of the tracks she claims. She admits she's never been to Detroit. Her fellow Crew-mates don't support her claims. Yes, MoTown recorded tracks in LA from the mid-sixties, but these were album filler, and not the hit versions. I could carry on, but this website - http://www.bassland.net/jamerson.html#drlicks - does a far better job of exposing her groundless claims than i could ever dream of. Slightly more on topic, she also claims to have played guitar on "Surfin' USA": however the AFM sheet and the memory of David Marks say she didn't. For whatever reason, the woman is relating a falsehood.

Re: the Hitsville box, which one is she credited on - 1959-71 or 1972-1992 ? And which songs ?

[Jeff]

Couldn't the Fire/H&V 'intro' have been the Air segment?  It fits Brian's description of an instrumental; it fits his description of a piano piece; and it's covered in aerophones - whistles, bird calls, organs, etc.

That's an excellent discovery. And the high organ plays the ... I call it religious-sounding background chant-part from "Who Ran The Iron Horse". When that isn't air! Must be. The wind is blowing through the instruments.

Interesting notion. However Brian's description - "a piano piece, an instrumental, no vocals - we never finished that" - doesn't fit in the least beyond it being an instrumental. Does he mention bells, whistles and the like  ?  No, he does not.

Don't forget that we have decent evidence that I Wanna Be Around/WoodShop was intended to go after Mrs. O'Leary's Cow as the symbolic "rebuilding". I

I've only ever found one source for that statement - the same person who still claims, in the face the evidence of AFM sheets, the recollection of the people involved and legal depositions, that she played bass on a slew on MoTown hits. By association, I don't regard that as 'decent evidence'.

I appreciate your point that there's no other evidence besides Kaye's, but claiming to have played on sessions is one thing - you can understand her motivation behind that. But to make up a story about Fire and I Wanna Be Around  - well ok she may well be mistaken and if it was Vegetables + Surf's Up then by all means write it off, but Fire and IWBA sound so right together, in so many ways: What else would Brian follow the bummer that is Fire with? It's Smile remember - so obviously a bit of humour to lighten things up and reassure us that it was just a joke after all!! Also musically IWBA follows Fire better than any other track. We have the soft thud, thud, thud of the falling timbers gently slowing the tempo of Fire, ready for the soothing lounge music to follow.

The "rebuilding" comment, assuming it was made, could mean anything.  It could have been totally offhand, or simply a reference to the order in which things were being recorded.  There's no evidence of anyone saying that IWBA/Friday Night would follow Fire in the album itself.  Plus, how would hammering and sawing represent an element?  I just don't see how that makes sense.

And then there's the session sheet that labeled IWBA/Friday Night as part of I'm in Great Shape, not the Elements.

[grillo]

Couldn't the Fire/H&V 'intro' have been the Air segment?  It fits Brian's description of an instrumental; it fits his description of a piano piece; and it's covered in aerophones - whistles, bird calls, organs, etc.

That's an excellent discovery. And the high organ plays the ... I call it religious-sounding background chant-part from "Who Ran The Iron Horse". When that isn't air! Must be. The wind is blowing through the instruments.

Interesting notion. However Brian's description - "a piano piece, an instrumental, no vocals - we never finished that" - doesn't fit in the least beyond it being an instrumental. Does he mention bells, whistles and the like  ?  No, he does not.

Don't forget that we have decent evidence that I Wanna Be Around/WoodShop was intended to go after Mrs. O'Leary's Cow as the symbolic "rebuilding". I

I've only ever found one source for that statement - the same person who still claims, in the face the evidence of AFM sheets, the recollection of the people involved and legal depositions, that she played bass on a slew on MoTown hits. By association, I don't regard that as 'decent evidence'.

Not to go off topic, but are you saying Carol didn't play on the Motown hits? She's certainly credited on Motown's Hitsville USA box set. During the mid-60s, Motown began recording certain artists and backing tracks in LA to accommodate busy touring schedules.  By the late 60s, Motown had started recording almost exclusively in Los Angeles rather than Detroit. Then around 1972, Motown moved to California and shut the Detroit studio down.

I am saying exactly that, and I am not alone in this: no-one at Hitsville ever recalls seeing her there, her name isn't on the AFM sheets, and one track she claims credit for - "I Was Made To Love Her" - was watched from composition to shipping the singles by the composer, arranger & producer of same, Henry Cosby, who singed an affidavit stating that the bassist was James Jamerson. Her studio logs, which I gather are meticulously kept, make no mention of the tracks she claims. She admits she's never been to Detroit. Her fellow Crew-mates don't support her claims. Yes, MoTown recorded tracks in LA from the mid-sixties, but these were album filler, and not the hit versions. I could carry on, but this website - http://www.bassland.net/jamerson.html#drlicks - does a far better job of exposing her groundless claims than i could ever dream of. Slightly more on topic, she also claims to have played guitar on "Surfin' USA": however the AFM sheet and the memory of David Marks say she didn't. For whatever reason, the woman is relating a falsehood.

Re: the Hitsville box, which one is she credited on - 1959-71 or 1972-1992 ? And which songs ?

Giving her the benefit of the doubt, is it not likely that she is simply remembering one of the countless re-makes of these songs as done by other artists? Surely she IS on someone's version of Surfin USA and could easily confuse her many BB sessions with other, less memorable artists. Same with Motown, although that seems fishier...

[A Million Units In Jan!]

Couldn't the Fire/H&V 'intro' have been the Air segment?  It fits Brian's description of an instrumental; it fits his description of a piano piece; and it's covered in aerophones - whistles, bird calls, organs, etc.

That's an excellent discovery. And the high organ plays the ... I call it religious-sounding background chant-part from "Who Ran The Iron Horse". When that isn't air! Must be. The wind is blowing through the instruments.

Interesting notion. However Brian's description - "a piano piece, an instrumental, no vocals - we never finished that" - doesn't fit in the least beyond it being an instrumental. Does he mention bells, whistles and the like  ?  No, he does not.

Don't forget that we have decent evidence that I Wanna Be Around/WoodShop was intended to go after Mrs. O'Leary's Cow as the symbolic "rebuilding". I

I've only ever found one source for that statement - the same person who still claims, in the face the evidence of AFM sheets, the recollection of the people involved and legal depositions, that she played bass on a slew on MoTown hits. By association, I don't regard that as 'decent evidence'.

I appreciate your point that there's no other evidence besides Kaye's, but claiming to have played on sessions is one thing - you can understand her motivation behind that. But to make up a story about Fire and I Wanna Be Around  - well ok she may well be mistaken and if it was Vegetables + Surf's Up then by all means write it off, but Fire and IWBA sound so right together, in so many ways: What else would Brian follow the bummer that is Fire with? It's Smile remember - so obviously a bit of humour to lighten things up and reassure us that it was just a joke after all!! Also musically IWBA follows Fire better than any other track. We have the soft thud, thud, thud of the falling timbers gently slowing the tempo of Fire, ready for the soothing lounge music to follow.

The "rebuilding" comment, assuming it was made, could mean anything.  It could have been totally offhand, or simply a reference to the order in which things were being recorded.  There's no evidence of anyone saying that IWBA/Friday Night would follow Fire in the album itself.  Plus, how would hammering and sawing represent an element?  I just don't see how that makes sense.

And then there's the session sheet that labeled IWBA/Friday Night as part of I'm in Great Shape, not the Elements.

Just to remind me; does the session sheet say IWBA/Friday Night/IIGS, or does it say IIGS/Friday Night?

[armona]

Couldn't the Fire/H&V 'intro' have been the Air segment?  It fits Brian's description of an instrumental; it fits his description of a piano piece; and it's covered in aerophones - whistles, bird calls, organs, etc.

That's an excellent discovery. And the high organ plays the ... I call it religious-sounding background chant-part from "Who Ran The Iron Horse". When that isn't air! Must be. The wind is blowing through the instruments.

Interesting notion. However Brian's description - "a piano piece, an instrumental, no vocals - we never finished that" - doesn't fit in the least beyond it being an instrumental. Does he mention bells, whistles and the like  ?  No, he does not.

Don't forget that we have decent evidence that I Wanna Be Around/WoodShop was intended to go after Mrs. O'Leary's Cow as the symbolic "rebuilding". I

I've only ever found one source for that statement - the same person who still claims, in the face the evidence of AFM sheets, the recollection of the people involved and legal depositions, that she played bass on a slew on MoTown hits. By association, I don't regard that as 'decent evidence'.

I appreciate your point that there's no other evidence besides Kaye's, but claiming to have played on sessions is one thing - you can understand her motivation behind that. But to make up a story about Fire and I Wanna Be Around  - well ok she may well be mistaken and if it was Vegetables + Surf's Up then by all means write it off, but Fire and IWBA sound so right together, in so many ways: What else would Brian follow the bummer that is Fire with? It's Smile remember - so obviously a bit of humour to lighten things up and reassure us that it was just a joke after all!! Also musically IWBA follows Fire better than any other track. We have the soft thud, thud, thud of the falling timbers gently slowing the tempo of Fire, ready for the soothing lounge music to follow.

As for what follows MOC, I've never had a problem with it being followed by the Water Chant. Water putting out the fire. The eeriness of the Chant matching the eeriness that sometimes follows disaster. With the Elements, though, there's just too much uncertainty to say anything in terms of order aside from that (at one point) Fire may have been part 1. Anderle even said in late '67 that none of them had any idea as to how the elements would tie together.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Couldn't the Fire/H&V 'intro' have been the Air segment?  It fits Brian's description of an instrumental; it fits his description of a piano piece; and it's covered in aerophones - whistles, bird calls, organs, etc.

That's an excellent discovery. And the high organ plays the ... I call it religious-sounding background chant-part from "Who Ran The Iron Horse". When that isn't air! Must be. The wind is blowing through the instruments.

Interesting notion. However Brian's description - "a piano piece, an instrumental, no vocals - we never finished that" - doesn't fit in the least beyond it being an instrumental. Does he mention bells, whistles and the like  ?  No, he does not.

Don't forget that we have decent evidence that I Wanna Be Around/WoodShop was intended to go after Mrs. O'Leary's Cow as the symbolic "rebuilding". I

I've only ever found one source for that statement - the same person who still claims, in the face the evidence of AFM sheets, the recollection of the people involved and legal depositions, that she played bass on a slew on MoTown hits. By association, I don't regard that as 'decent evidence'.

Not to go off topic, but are you saying Carol didn't play on the Motown hits? She's certainly credited on Motown's Hitsville USA box set. During the mid-60s, Motown began recording certain artists and backing tracks in LA to accommodate busy touring schedules.  By the late 60s, Motown had started recording almost exclusively in Los Angeles rather than Detroit. Then around 1972, Motown moved to California and shut the Detroit studio down.

I am saying exactly that, and I am not alone in this: no-one at Hitsville ever recalls seeing her there, her name isn't on the AFM sheets, and one track she claims credit for - "I Was Made To Love Her" - was watched from composition to shipping the singles by the composer, arranger & producer of same, Henry Cosby, who singed an affidavit stating that the bassist was James Jamerson. Her studio logs, which I gather are meticulously kept, make no mention of the tracks she claims. She admits she's never been to Detroit. Her fellow Crew-mates don't support her claims. Yes, MoTown recorded tracks in LA from the mid-sixties, but these were album filler, and not the hit versions. I could carry on, but this website - http://www.bassland.net/jamerson.html#drlicks - does a far better job of exposing her groundless claims than i could ever dream of. Slightly more on topic, she also claims to have played guitar on "Surfin' USA": however the AFM sheet and the memory of David Marks say she didn't. For whatever reason, the woman is relating a falsehood.

Re: the Hitsville box, which one is she credited on - 1959-71 or 1972-1992 ? And which songs ?

Giving her the benefit of the doubt, is it not likely that she is simply remembering one of the countless re-makes of these songs as done by other artists? Surely she IS on someone's version of Surfin USA and could easily confuse her many BB sessions with other, less memorable artists. Same with Motown, although that seems fishier...

There was a cover of "SUSA" as early as mid-1963, which involved the Crew, which almost certainly featured Hal & Carol... thing is (as with the MoTown nonsense), the claim that she played on the Beach Boys hit has been up on her website for years, despite a lot of people pointing out she's wrong. She also claims to be on "Surf City" - again, AFM sheet says not. (A small aside - whenever you question her involvement in something, she waves the AFM sheets like a page of scripture... unless said documentation contradicts her, in which case it's wrong. Heads she wins, tails you lose). I have boundless admiration for what she did achieve - even if all she'd ever done was the bassline on the "Mission: Impossible" theme, she'd be worthy of praise - but for years she's been claiming the work of a fellow musician, with no evidence whatsoever to back it up aside from "I say so".  Here's something she never mentions on her site - back in 2000 or so she brought a suit to prove she'd played on those MoTown songs (in Chicago or Detroit). In pre-trial, the judge read her evidence, told her she didn't have a leg to stand on and threw the case out of court.

[XY]

Couldn't the Fire/H&V 'intro' have been the Air segment?  It fits Brian's description of an instrumental; it fits his description of a piano piece; and it's covered in aerophones - whistles, bird calls, organs, etc.

That's an excellent discovery. And the high organ plays the ... I call it religious-sounding background chant-part from "Who Ran The Iron Horse". When that isn't air! Must be. The wind is blowing through the instruments.

Interesting notion. However Brian's description - "a piano piece, an instrumental, no vocals - we never finished that" - doesn't fit in the least beyond it being an instrumental. Does he mention bells, whistles and the like  ?  No, he does not.

Well, OK. Then I nominate "All Day" for air...or "Air Dada"? Wait, perhaps that piano intermezzo during "Wind Chimes"..or maybe the H&V intro nevertheless? Man, SMiLE is so complicated...

[buddhahat]

Couldn't the Fire/H&V 'intro' have been the Air segment?  It fits Brian's description of an instrumental; it fits his description of a piano piece; and it's covered in aerophones - whistles, bird calls, organs, etc.

That's an excellent discovery. And the high organ plays the ... I call it religious-sounding background chant-part from "Who Ran The Iron Horse". When that isn't air! Must be. The wind is blowing through the instruments.

Interesting notion. However Brian's description - "a piano piece, an instrumental, no vocals - we never finished that" - doesn't fit in the least beyond it being an instrumental. Does he mention bells, whistles and the like  ?  No, he does not.

Well, OK. Then I nominate "All Day" for air...or "Air Dada"? Wait, perhaps that piano intermezzo during "Wind Chimes"..or maybe the H&V intro nevertheless? Man, SMiLE is so complicated...

What no one ever considers for Air, is the third section of Love To Say Dada. Check out Secret Smile:  I Love To Say Da Da (Part 2 Overdub). After the 2nd section the musicians move into a 3rd piano led piece that quickly breaks down. It sounds similar in style to the chorus of Child, or the fast sections of Look, and Holidays. Admittedly it does break down quickly. I'd pass it off as the musicians just messing around if the piece of music didn't sound so Smile. Maybe it's Brian on the piano and he's just messing around? It sounds like has an intent here though and can be heard saying "Let me go on, let's just ..." before he (I presume it's Brian on piano) launches into this piano part. Who knows, but I'm inclined to believe it's a next section, or coda, to Dada. As such, it could be that Dada at this point was considered it's own song, but there's nothing to say that if Dada was to be part of Elements at this point, that the 3rd section in question isn't Dada shifting into another of the elements - perhaps Air. It certainly fits Brian's description i.e. "a piano piece, an instrumental, no vocals - we never finished that".

[rab2591]

Couldn't the Fire/H&V 'intro' have been the Air segment?  It fits Brian's description of an instrumental; it fits his description of a piano piece; and it's covered in aerophones - whistles, bird calls, organs, etc.

That's an excellent discovery. And the high organ plays the ... I call it religious-sounding background chant-part from "Who Ran The Iron Horse". When that isn't air! Must be. The wind is blowing through the instruments.

Interesting notion. However Brian's description - "a piano piece, an instrumental, no vocals - we never finished that" - doesn't fit in the least beyond it being an instrumental. Does he mention bells, whistles and the like  ?  No, he does not.

Well, OK. Then I nominate "All Day" for air...or "Air Dada"? Wait, perhaps that piano intermezzo during "Wind Chimes"..or maybe the H&V intro nevertheless? Man, SMiLE is so complicated...

What no one ever considers for Air, is the third section of Love To Say Dada. Check out Secret Smile: I Love To Say Da Da (Part 2 Overdub). After the 2nd section the musicians move into a 3rd piano led piece that quickly breaks down. It sounds similar in style to the chorus of Child, or the fast sections of Look, and Holidays. Admittedly it does break down quickly. I'd pass it off as the musicians just messing around if the piece of music didn't sound so Smile. Maybe it's Brian on the piano and he's just messing around? It sounds like has an intent here though and can be heard saying "Let me go on, let's just ..." before he (I presume it's Brian on piano) launches into this piano part. Who knows, but I'm inclined to believe it's a next section, or coda, to Dada. As such, it could be that Dada at this point was considered it's own song, but there's nothing to say that if Dada was to be part of Elements at this point, that the 3rd section in question isn't Dada shifting into another of the elements - perhaps Air. It certainly fits Brian's description i.e. "a piano piece, an instrumental, no vocals - we never finished that".

It also sounds exactly like the end of the bridge before the final chorus in 'Good Vibrations' (in tone, not in actual instrumentation) - which made me realize how similar 'Love To Say Da Da' is to 'Good Vibrations' and thus similar to CIFOTM and others. What a ridiculously complex album this was!

[Dunderhead]

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,7251.0.html

That's a good thread.

One thing it doesn't list though is Hokey Pokey from Look. What's with that section? That whole melody, the one that also appears in GV sounds so familiar, any info on it? Any idea why he might have put Hokey Pokey in there with it?

[JaredLekites]

Couldn't the Fire/H&V 'intro' have been the Air segment?  It fits Brian's description of an instrumental; it fits his description of a piano piece; and it's covered in aerophones - whistles, bird calls, organs, etc.

That's an excellent discovery. And the high organ plays the ... I call it religious-sounding background chant-part from "Who Ran The Iron Horse". When that isn't air! Must be. The wind is blowing through the instruments.

Interesting notion. However Brian's description - "a piano piece, an instrumental, no vocals - we never finished that" - doesn't fit in the least beyond it being an instrumental. Does he mention bells, whistles and the like  ?  No, he does not.

Don't forget that we have decent evidence that I Wanna Be Around/WoodShop was intended to go after Mrs. O'Leary's Cow as the symbolic "rebuilding". I

I've only ever found one source for that statement - the same person who still claims, in the face the evidence of AFM sheets, the recollection of the people involved and legal depositions, that she played bass on a slew on MoTown hits. By association, I don't regard that as 'decent evidence'.

Not to go off topic, but are you saying Carol didn't play on the Motown hits? She's certainly credited on Motown's Hitsville USA box set. During the mid-60s, Motown began recording certain artists and backing tracks in LA to accommodate busy touring schedules.  By the late 60s, Motown had started recording almost exclusively in Los Angeles rather than Detroit. Then around 1972, Motown moved to California and shut the Detroit studio down.

I am saying exactly that, and I am not alone in this: no-one at Hitsville ever recalls seeing her there, her name isn't on the AFM sheets, and one track she claims credit for - "I Was Made To Love Her" - was watched from composition to shipping the singles by the composer, arranger & producer of same, Henry Cosby, who singed an affidavit stating that the bassist was James Jamerson. Her studio logs, which I gather are meticulously kept, make no mention of the tracks she claims. She admits she's never been to Detroit. Her fellow Crew-mates don't support her claims. Yes, MoTown recorded tracks in LA from the mid-sixties, but these were album filler, and not the hit versions. I could carry on, but this website - http://www.bassland.net/jamerson.html#drlicks - does a far better job of exposing her groundless claims than i could ever dream of. Slightly more on topic, she also claims to have played guitar on "Surfin' USA": however the AFM sheet and the memory of David Marks say she didn't. For whatever reason, the woman is relating a falsehood.

Re: the Hitsville box, which one is she credited on - 1959-71 or 1972-1992 ? And which songs ?

I only have the 1959-1971 box so I couldn't comment on Volume 2. The liner notes themselves don't list specific tracks the musicians played on but rather, the musicians who contributed to specific eras of Motown's history. Carol is listed as one of the bass players for the last era the box set covers (mid-60s to early 70s).

The only specific hits mentioned as being completely recorded in LA are all The Jackson Five hits.

Sorry to hijack this thread.

[Boiled Egg]

Couldn't the Fire/H&V 'intro' have been the Air segment?  It fits Brian's description of an instrumental; it fits his description of a piano piece; and it's covered in aerophones - whistles, bird calls, organs, etc.

That's an excellent discovery. And the high organ plays the ... I call it religious-sounding background chant-part from "Who Ran The Iron Horse". When that isn't air! Must be. The wind is blowing through the instruments.

Interesting notion. However Brian's description - "a piano piece, an instrumental, no vocals - we never finished that" - doesn't fit in the least beyond it being an instrumental. Does he mention bells, whistles and the like  ?  No, he does not.

Well, OK. Then I nominate "All Day" for air...or "Air Dada"? Wait, perhaps that piano intermezzo during "Wind Chimes"..or maybe the H&V intro nevertheless? Man, SMiLE is so complicated...

What no one ever considers for Air, is the third section of Love To Say Dada. Check out Secret Smile:  I Love To Say Da Da (Part 2 Overdub). After the 2nd section the musicians move into a 3rd piano led piece that quickly breaks down. It sounds similar in style to the chorus of Child, or the fast sections of Look, and Holidays. Admittedly it does break down quickly. I'd pass it off as the musicians just messing around if the piece of music didn't sound so Smile. Maybe it's Brian on the piano and he's just messing around? It sounds like has an intent here though and can be heard saying "Let me go on, let's just ..." before he (I presume it's Brian on piano) launches into this piano part. Who knows, but I'm inclined to believe it's a next section, or coda, to Dada. As such, it could be that Dada at this point was considered it's own song, but there's nothing to say that if Dada was to be part of Elements at this point, that the 3rd section in question isn't Dada shifting into another of the elements - perhaps Air. It certainly fits Brian's description i.e. "a piano piece, an instrumental, no vocals - we never finished that".

though that section he launches into is identical to 'Child Is Father Of The Man (Piano Section Vocal Overdub)' from Secret Smile Disc 1, which does have vocals.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Couldn't the Fire/H&V 'intro' have been the Air segment?  It fits Brian's description of an instrumental; it fits his description of a piano piece; and it's covered in aerophones - whistles, bird calls, organs, etc.

That's an excellent discovery. And the high organ plays the ... I call it religious-sounding background chant-part from "Who Ran The Iron Horse". When that isn't air! Must be. The wind is blowing through the instruments.

Interesting notion. However Brian's description - "a piano piece, an instrumental, no vocals - we never finished that" - doesn't fit in the least beyond it being an instrumental. Does he mention bells, whistles and the like  ?  No, he does not.

Don't forget that we have decent evidence that I Wanna Be Around/WoodShop was intended to go after Mrs. O'Leary's Cow as the symbolic "rebuilding". I

I've only ever found one source for that statement - the same person who still claims, in the face the evidence of AFM sheets, the recollection of the people involved and legal depositions, that she played bass on a slew on MoTown hits. By association, I don't regard that as 'decent evidence'.

Not to go off topic, but are you saying Carol didn't play on the Motown hits? She's certainly credited on Motown's Hitsville USA box set. During the mid-60s, Motown began recording certain artists and backing tracks in LA to accommodate busy touring schedules.  By the late 60s, Motown had started recording almost exclusively in Los Angeles rather than Detroit. Then around 1972, Motown moved to California and shut the Detroit studio down.

I am saying exactly that, and I am not alone in this: no-one at Hitsville ever recalls seeing her there, her name isn't on the AFM sheets, and one track she claims credit for - "I Was Made To Love Her" - was watched from composition to shipping the singles by the composer, arranger & producer of same, Henry Cosby, who singed an affidavit stating that the bassist was James Jamerson. Her studio logs, which I gather are meticulously kept, make no mention of the tracks she claims. She admits she's never been to Detroit. Her fellow Crew-mates don't support her claims. Yes, MoTown recorded tracks in LA from the mid-sixties, but these were album filler, and not the hit versions. I could carry on, but this website - http://www.bassland.net/jamerson.html#drlicks - does a far better job of exposing her groundless claims than i could ever dream of. Slightly more on topic, she also claims to have played guitar on "Surfin' USA": however the AFM sheet and the memory of David Marks say she didn't. For whatever reason, the woman is relating a falsehood.

Re: the Hitsville box, which one is she credited on - 1959-71 or 1972-1992 ? And which songs ?

I only have the 1959-1971 box so I couldn't comment on Volume 2. The liner notes themselves don't list specific tracks the musicians played on but rather, the musicians who contributed to specific eras of Motown's history. Carol is listed as one of the bass players for the last era the box set covers (mid-60s to early 70s).

The only specific hits mentioned as being completely recorded in LA are all The Jackson Five hits.

Sorry to hijack this thread.

I think you just answered my question. 

[A Million Units In Jan!]

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,7251.0.html

That's a good thread.

One thing it doesn't list though is Hokey Pokey from Look. What's with that section? That whole melody, the one that also appears in GV sounds so familiar, any info on it? Any idea why he might have put Hokey Pokey in there with it?

I think you're talking about '12th street rag'.

[Roger Ryan]

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,7251.0.html

That's a good thread.

One thing it doesn't list though is Hokey Pokey from Look. What's with that section? That whole melody, the one that also appears in GV sounds so familiar, any info on it? Any idea why he might have put Hokey Pokey in there with it?

I think you're talking about '12th street rag'.

Yeah, there's no "Hokey Pokey" in "Look", the vamp is from "12th Street Rag". Unless I'm misremembering, I believe "Look" was recorded prior to the final wordless vocal section in "Good Vibrations". Therefore, it's thought that Brian more-or-less abandoned "Look" after lifting the horn melody for use near the end of "Good Vibrations". Note that in BWPS, the final time the "Look" horn melody is used in "Song For Children", it's altered to more closely resemble the wordless vocals in GV.