Is it time to reappraise 15 Big Ones?

[bgas]

If you think about it, Punkinhead, that's what M.I.U. was.

Yeah, I reckon so.
To be honest, I actually like the production of MIU of 15 Big Ones, except the covers...for some reason, I dont enjoy Come Go with Me on MIU, I prefer (like many do) the earlier version...I think Brian cut that one.

Nope - Alan cut it solo one night when the band had hired a mobile to turn up at Brian's place, and he was the only one to show.

When you refer to Al cutting it solo, are you referencing the MIU song or the earlier version?

[c-man]

If you think about it, Punkinhead, that's what M.I.U. was.

Yeah, I reckon so.
To be honest, I actually like the production of MIU of 15 Big Ones, except the covers...for some reason, I dont enjoy Come Go with Me on MIU, I prefer (like many do) the earlier version...I think Brian cut that one.

Nope - Alan cut it solo one night when the band had hired a mobile to turn up at Brian's place, and he was the only one to show.

When you refer to Al cutting it solo, are you referencing the MIU song or the earlier version?

I think they're the same basic recording, just different mixes.  The "official" version removes the harpsichord and adds a lot of echo to the drums.   There are probably some other, more minor, differences too.  I seem to recall that it might be a shade faster than the alternate version, as well.

[Wirestone]

For those fans of Dennis and Carl, it shows them essentially giving up on the group.

Ed rightly pointed this out for further examination, and I want to clarify. Dennis and Carl were clearly interested in getting Brian back and functioning in the studio. Carl, for instance, did the final mix on the Love You material. Dennis is all over the material as a singer and player. Their hearts were so clearly in the right place that it hurts.

But in as much as Dennis and Carl's songwriting and production were the two strands that made the group seem adventurous and impressive in the early 70s, they basically stopped -- it was out of respect for Brian, I know, but it also meant they never had a big hit album that showcased their songs and their abilities at the highest level. They would eventually return, and contribute highlights to late 70s records (and in Carl's case, BB85), but it was a bit late by that point.

As I said, a lot of decisions were made in a very short time. And those decisions pretty much set the course for the group for the next 10 years.

[Andrew G. Doe]

If you think about it, Punkinhead, that's what M.I.U. was.

Yeah, I reckon so.
To be honest, I actually like the production of MIU of 15 Big Ones, except the covers...for some reason, I dont enjoy Come Go with Me on MIU, I prefer (like many do) the earlier version...I think Brian cut that one.

Nope - Alan cut it solo one night when the band had hired a mobile to turn up at Brian's place, and he was the only one to show.

When you refer to Al cutting it solo, are you referencing the MIU song or the earlier version?

I think they're the same basic recording, just different mixes.  The "official" version removes the harpsichord and adds a lot of echo to the drums.   There are probably some other, more minor, differences too.  I seem to recall that it might be a shade faster than the alternate version, as well.

According to ACJ, all that remains of the original recording are the drums and handclaps. Not done an A/B for many moons, so can't comment on that.

[adamghost]

This is just from my impression at the time listening to the two versions, so I could be totally wrong, but my recollection was that they were very similar, but there was a very disjointed piano part on the original that was removed later.

Interesting what Ed says about the "life being drained out" of the final version of the 15BO tracks.  It does go to support Boyd's theory.

BTW, given that he's a personal friend and an awesome engineer, and it might be misconstrued, NOT referring to or slagging Earle Mankey in any way in anything I've posted (nor intending to slag anyone else for that matter...I wasn't there and I don't doubt everyone did what they thought was their best at the time with what they had to work with).

Great post, Wirestone.

[Andrew G. Doe]

OK, did an A/B - well, actually played both versions on my laptop at the same time (and I don't recommend it, really I don't) - and the major differences are:

Handclaps on the MIU version (which of course makes a nonsense of what Alan said)...

'Original' version is 3 seconds longer, or put another way, later version is just over 2% faster.

There's a tack piano missing from #2.

[bgas]

OK, did an A/B - well, actually played both versions on my laptop at the same time (and I don't recommend it, really I don't) - and the major differences are:

Handclaps on the MIU version (which of course makes a nonsense of what Alan said)...

'Original' version is 3 seconds longer, or put another way, later version is just over 2% faster.

There's a tack piano missing from #2.

So much for Al's "Great" memory

[lance]

15BO has grown on me slowly but steadily. I'm by no means saying it's great as an album, but several of the individual tracks sound great to me. Sure, maybe they could have been mixed better, and whoever is right in pointing out the less-than-stellar vocals--but I think the chief problem is the sequencing and the fact that they used inferior songs when better contemporary  songs were in the can.

Really, the only songs I hate on it are Rock and Roll Music and Chapel of Love. Rock and Roll single Mix is supposedly better--is that the one that's on 10 Years of Harmony? Because that one sounds much better to me, but I don't know if it's just the mastering or if it's actually a different mix. But that one sounds like a Love You outtake, it's really pretty good.

Mike's vocal on A Casual Look is a bit too nasal for me, but the rest of the track and Al sound great.

Blueberry Hill bugged me at first listen, but now I actually think it's one of the best backing tracks, it just shimmers and bounces. The way the Horns and guitars blend sound like molten gold to me.

CArl's songs great, backing track and vocal.

OK and Phone ya great.

Back Home and Same Song a bit flat  and underproduced.

Dennis track and Once in my Life both good to great.

Actually all of the tracks are great except for the two I mention, it's just some of the vocals are a little off.

I think they should have used the original mix and put something in Chapel of Love's place. Of the outtakes I've heard Sea Cruise, Ruby Baby, Shake Rattle and Roll and Mony Mony, and Michael Row Your Boat are all great(I know that some don't like the last two, and that maybe one of those was recorded after 15 BO's release.)

[Myk Luhv]

This is the best performance of "Back Home" because it makes me laugh every single time: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JjiGnd-hk4

Why is it the best? The fight that Brian and Mike have, Brian's seemingly deliberately shitty singing because he doesn't want to be doing it and wants to piss of Mike or whatever, and Brian's anger at the other mike () towards the beginning of the clip. Good times in 1977 with The Beard Boys!

[Mr. Cohen]

To be honest, I find that more disturbing than funny. It doesn't seem like he's mad at Mike specifically. It seems more like he's hearing voices coming out of the microphone or that he's imagining that it's possessed. Or something. I don't know, but it's creepy.

[Mike's Beard]

It's also worth noting that Brian wrote next to no new stuff for the record. "Everyone's in Love with You" was Mike's. "Suzie C" was a six year old Al tune. "It's OK" was a finishing up of a tune abandoned two years earlier. "Had to Phone Ya" was from the Spring sessions in '72 and "Back Home" was one of the first songs he ever wrote! That only leaves "TM Song" and "That Same Song", which are both pretty bad.

Carl and Dennis seemed to notice the elephant in the room if no one else did, that Brian was in no way ready to lead the band to former glories.

[Loaf]

Really, the only songs I hate on it are Rock and Roll Music and Chapel of Love. Rock and Roll single Mix is supposedly better--is that the one that's on 10 Years of Harmony? Because that one sounds much better to me, but I don't know if it's just the mastering or if it's actually a different mix. But that one sounds like a Love You outtake, it's really pretty good.

The single mix of RnR Music, also featured on Best of the Brother Years 3, is 2% faster. There might be other differences, but it sounds so much better. I CAN stand the single mix. The album mix is dreadfully limp.

[c-man]

The single mix of RnR Music, also featured on Best of the Brother Years 3, is 2% faster. There might be other differences, but it sounds so much better. I CAN stand the single mix. The album mix is dreadfully limp.

An even better mix, IMO, is the original mix Brian did (with heavier drums and clashing guitar licks) that was aired on that syndicated radio show (National Album Countdown) in April of '76.  If the whole album had come off sounding like that, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion.  It was a very "Brian-y" mix, if you know what I mean.

[Smilin Ed H]

Yeah but the (Double Rock Baptist Choir) version of That Same Song has balls!

[Awesoman]

Someone else up the thread hit on this point...the only reason 15BO seems better decades down the line is because of the weak BB's releases that came in its wake. The BB's had a nearly pristine history of quality releases until 15BO. In the context of 1976 it was a huge artistic disappointment...and really seemed cheesy and small. The worst part about it (besides the cover and the overall lack of originality and balls)is the fact that rock's greatest vocal group didn't sing well on it. Its shoddy in the vocal dept. Yes it has its charms like every other bad BB's thing(other than Looking Back With Love and SIP)...Its OK in itself is plenty of nostalgia...please lets move on...no need for Happy Days...you ARE the BB's. Had To Phone Ya shows Brian still had good track ideas...but he had no focus, he did not want to be there, and he phoned more than that song in. Love You followed...which just confused EVERYONE. Brian had more weird goodness in the quirk tank no question...but it took a long time for people to get it. POB immediately showed Dennis knew his way around big studio sounds, choirs, strings, giant fat bass sounds, synths and production and arrangements just plain better than the other guys, his stuff sounded current, but still artful and twisted in a Wilson-esque way. Then the career burying string of public pants pooping MIU, KTSA, BB85 with L.A. also ruined by the two H's...HCTN and Heroin. Yes 15BO is better than I thought it was in '76, because at that time I thought the BB's would make another great record...Dennis did...but they did not.

I agree with the Stebster.  15 Big Ones, while not bad, is hardly remarkable enough for re-evaluation.  We fans must be getting pretty bored.  How 'bout we take a 19th look at Pet Sounds again???  Oh no!   

[DSamore]

15 big ones is terrible IMO. No need to even re-listen.

[Mike's Beard]

Someone else up the thread hit on this point...the only reason 15BO seems better decades down the line is because of the weak BB's releases that came in its wake. The BB's had a nearly pristine history of quality releases until 15BO. In the context of 1976 it was a huge artistic disappointment...and really seemed cheesy and small. The worst part about it (besides the cover and the overall lack of originality and balls)is the fact that rock's greatest vocal group didn't sing well on it. Its shoddy in the vocal dept. Yes it has its charms like every other bad BB's thing(other than Looking Back With Love and SIP)...Its OK in itself is plenty of nostalgia...please lets move on...no need for Happy Days...you ARE the BB's. Had To Phone Ya shows Brian still had good track ideas...but he had no focus, he did not want to be there, and he phoned more than that song in. Love You followed...which just confused EVERYONE. Brian had more weird goodness in the quirk tank no question...but it took a long time for people to get it. POB immediately showed Dennis knew his way around big studio sounds, choirs, strings, giant fat bass sounds, synths and production and arrangements just plain better than the other guys, his stuff sounded current, but still artful and twisted in a Wilson-esque way. Then the career burying string of public pants pooping MIU, KTSA, BB85 with L.A. also ruined by the two H's...HCTN and Heroin. Yes 15BO is better than I thought it was in '76, because at that time I thought the BB's would make another great record...Dennis did...but they did not.

I agree with the Stebster.  15 Big Ones, while not bad, is hardly remarkable enough for re-evaluation.  We fans must be getting pretty bored.  How 'bout we take a 19th look at Pet Sounds again???  Oh no!   

I find the failures just as much fun to discuss as the triumphs.

[Mikie]

Yeah but the (Double Rock Baptist Choir) version of That Same Song has balls!

Totally agree with Smilin' Ed on that one. They shoulda released that on 15 Big Ones. They also should have released the alternate "hot mix" version of Rock & Roll Music complete with the original last verse. Why they didn't is beyond me. Always liked Palisade Park though. Carl done that one good. "It's OK" wasn't too bad either - at least it rocked but it was a little dated. Good Summer song for the new fans coming off of the Endless Summer album. "In The Still Of The Night was passable, and one of the best was "Just Once In My Life", albeit the shiity lead vocal. Brian shoulda coulda done a cover of that when he had a good voice. That song could have been replaced with "You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin", which was pretty much all Brian and a great cover version that remains unreleased.

Always loved "Back Home" I always found myself coming back to that one. Even with the disgraceful lead vocal. The rest of the songs are pretty much an embarassment and I always skipped over them.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

That song could have been replaced with "You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin", which was pretty much all Brian and a great cover version that remains unreleased.

Only problem with that is it was recorded after the album was released.

Should've been released on the next one. Great, great vocal from Brian.

[DonnyL]

Alan Boyd has repeatedly made the argument, to me and others, that 15BO was sabotaged in the mix and that it's a much better album in raw form than people think.  I was skeptical but he played me a different mix of "Had To Phone Ya" that really was breathtaking, I have to admit.

totally.  if it had been mixed to mono with a huge amount of echo chamber, it would sound closer to what we expect from the group.  instead, it has that dry '70s sound.

[c-man]

Just found this revealing quote from Dennis regarding "15 Big Ones", while cleaning out my basement yesterday (from the August 13, 1977 issue of the UK mag SOUNDS):  "'15 Big Ones'?  I had a lot of fights over it, becasue I thought that Brian should be making original music.  You really want to know?  '15 Big Ones' is a piece of merda.  That's the truth.  I didn't enjoy making it, and that's the only one...". 

However, he goes on to say "I think Mo Ostin (US Warner Bros biggie) murdered Brian Wilson on that album.  Purposely.  Upfront.  He did not promote that record, and told me he wasn't going to.  He said he didn't like it...that's tragic.  I felt so bad for Brian". 

Now, considering that "15 Big Ones" WAS promoted heavily, so much so that it made it to the U.S. Top 10 and went gold, and considering that there is a "..." between Dennis' two sets of comments above, I tend to think that Dennis was actually talking in the second case about "Love You", which we know WASN'T promoted at all by Warners.  THAT would make much more sense.  I'll bet Dennis' comments were edited (indicated by the "...") and that little part was removed.  This is especially believeable when you consider that the same article shows a picture of Brian with the caption "BRIAN WILSON:  '15 Big Ones was a step forward'", yet in the actual article, the quote comes out a bit differently:  "Where do you think 'Love You' stands in relation to '15 Big Ones'?  Brian 'Very good.  I think it was a step forward, a very big one.'"  Sloppy editing, at its worst!

[Mikie]

Only problem with that is it was recorded after the album was released.

Thought of that after I hit the "Save" button. The song was really a "Love You" outtake. But two Righteous Bros. covers in a row I guess wasn't desirable, and Love You was all originals.

Anyway........."Sea Cruise" and "On Broadway" before "TM Song" and "Casual Look" anyone?

[Mikie]

I don't think Mo Ostin sabatoged anything. Can understand that he didn't like "Love You", but considering the amount of promo material (large posters) and large adds in Billboard and Rolling Stone, I'm not sure "Love You" was promoted much less than "15 Big Ones".

[c-man]

I don't think Mo Ostin sabatoged anything. Can understand that he didn't like "Love You", but considering the amount of promo material (large posters) and large adds in Billboard and Rolling Stone, I'm not sure "Love You" was promoted much less than "15 Big Ones".

Except maybe it just wasn't pushed to radio as hard...'course, it's not the most radio-friendly album, certainly not by 1977 AM and FM standards! 

[Andrew G. Doe]

I don't think Mo Ostin sabatoged anything. Can understand that he didn't like "Love You", but considering the amount of promo material (large posters) and large adds in Billboard and Rolling Stone, I'm not sure "Love You" was promoted much less than "15 Big Ones".

Except maybe it just wasn't pushed to radio as hard...'course, it's not the most radio-friendly album, certainly not by 1977 AM and FM standards! 

Plus, just before it was released the news broke that the band had signed with Caribou.