Dennis Wilson..."Me and Charlie, we founded the family".

[Mike's Beard]

Thanks Ed, I'm a real life crime buff (have ate up everything on Jack the Ripper and JFK assassination and am now firmly into Manson Family territory) so I feel very privileged that someone with firsthand knowledge can take the time to answer one of my questions. I have just finished reading a loooooooong out of print book "Witness to Evil" which covered the murder trial. If the book "Helter Skelter" makes out that the convictions were the result of a great prosecution team than the former implies that the case was won due to a bumbling defense.

[OGoldin]

BTW in his newest communication, such as it is, Manson tells us

"They gave what they could, and like you, fell short, just like all the living do.  As for me, myself, Manson, I was born dead and never learned not to love."

http://www.mansondirect.com/

I can't make heads or tales of what he is saying, but, yes, it gives me the creeps.

[Mike's Beard]

The real scary thing is that despite his unique way a phrasing things, alot of what Manson says about the environment actually makes sense. If he truly cares about these things or is playing mind games however is anyones guess.

[Dr. Tim]

Stopped clocks are right twice a day, and the devil can quote scripture. (see: Jesus's temptation in the desert)

Yes Manson is playing mind games.  That is all the psychopathic personality does.  We've discussed this before.  Everyone is a mark, every encounter a victory or a victimization.  The fact that people still listen to him, and he can still scare the bejeezus out of people 42 years later, is a manifestation of that.  They are extremely persuasive and, when they choose to be, very personable.  Hence Manson's ability to make the rounds not only of the BB, but Neil Young and other famous folk in his time.

My own personal tidbit in this hstory: some may know that the "LIE" record, being a bootleg and all, is not copyrighted.  So anyone can issue it.  When a small (now defunct) record label back east got the idea to reissue "LIE" on CD, my task was to make arrangements with the California Violent Crimes Compensation board to be sure that any funds that otherwise would have constituted Manson's "mechanical" royalties would be paid to them, not to him.  The obvious reasons: so no one could say Manson was getting paid, and no one could say the label was exploiting the victims. They couldn't have been nicer about it.  It wasn't a big seller (how could it be?) but perhaps the victims fund got a little money from it.

[bgas]

Stopped clocks are right twice a day, and the devil can quote scripture. (see: Jesus's temptation in the desert)

Yes Manson is playing mind games.  That is all the psychopathic personality does.  We've discussed this before.  Everyone is a mark, every encounter a victory or a victimization.  The fact that people still listen to him, and he can still scare the bejeezus out of people 42 years later, is a manifestation of that.  They are extremely persuasive and, when they choose to be, very personable.  Hence Manson's ability to make the rounds not only of the BB, but Neil Young and other famous folk in his time.

My own personal tidbit in this hstory: some may know that the "LIE" record, being a bootleg and all, is not copyrighted.  So anyone can issue it.  When a small (now defunct) record label back east got the idea to reissue "LIE" on CD, my task was to make arrangements with the California Violent Crimes Compensation board to be sure that any funds that otherwise would have constituted Manson's "mechanical" royalties would be paid to them, not to him.  The obvious reasons: so no one could say Manson was getting paid, and no one could say the label was exploiting the victims. They couldn't have been nicer about it.  It wasn't a big seller (how could it be?) but perhaps the victims fund got a little money from it.

Interesting. I guess I never thought about it( you saying it's a bootleg).
Always just figured it was a legitimate release, somehow. 

[Mike's Beard]

Stopped clocks are right twice a day, and the devil can quote scripture. (see: Jesus's temptation in the desert)

Yes Manson is playing mind games.  That is all the psychopathic personality does.  We've discussed this before.  Everyone is a mark, every encounter a victory or a victimization.  The fact that people still listen to him, and he can still scare the bejeezus out of people 42 years later, is a manifestation of that.  They are extremely persuasive and, when they choose to be, very personable.  Hence Manson's ability to make the rounds not only of the BB, but Neil Young and other famous folk in his time.

My own personal tidbit in this hstory: some may know that the "LIE" record, being a bootleg and all, is not copyrighted.  So anyone can issue it.  When a small (now defunct) record label back east got the idea to reissue "LIE" on CD, my task was to make arrangements with the California Violent Crimes Compensation board to be sure that any funds that otherwise would have constituted Manson's "mechanical" royalties would be paid to them, not to him.  The obvious reasons: so no one could say Manson was getting paid, and no one could say the label was exploiting the victims. They couldn't have been nicer about it.  It wasn't a big seller (how could it be?) but perhaps the victims fund got a little money from it.

 Incredible as it may now seem, back in '68 it seems Manson and co were tight with half the LA entertainment industry. Honestly, the list of people he was partying with reads like a who's who of stars. Obviously the hippy thing was very much in vogue and the rich and famous wanted in on it.

I have read that most of the tracks on LIE were also the titles of the songs Desper was engineering at Brian's house. Of course they are not the same versions. However this does make food for thought when listening to the album.

One last point before I sign off and I choose my words very carefully as to not appear overly sympathetic towards the convicted, if Manson truly was the king of the mindfuck as many believe, capable of brainwashing young, impressionable drugged out hippies into mindless killers incapable of operating under their own free will, then Atkins, Krenwinkle, Van Houten and even Tex should not have been found guilty of first degree murder on grounds of "diminished responsibility". It seems the prosecution had both it's cake and ate it on this one.

[Mike's Beard]

I should also add on the other side of the coin, having just ploughed through Adam Gorightly's "Shadow over Santa Susana", although far from being an innocent bystander, there is some rather strong evidence that Manson may NOT have been the ringleader in the murders. Even Dennis Wilson has misgivings that he was. For anyone that is interested I thoroughly recommend this book. For those that are bored shitless from this topic by now I apologise for dredging it up again. 

[jeremylr]

Mark Lindsay, lead singer of Paul Revere & The Raiders, recently participated in a long-form interview with PopCultureClassics.com.  He was asked about Manson, and his story was interesting to me.  The whole interview can be found here:

http://www.popcultureclassics.com/mark_lindsay.html






PCC:
You mentioned living with Terry for a while. Was that the infamous house where the Sharon Tate murder took place?

LINDSAY:
Yeah, 10050 Cielo Drive. I actually met, ran into Manson up there one time. But luckily, I didn’t run into him that other time.

PCC:
Did he creep you out when you saw him? Or was there no indication?

LINDSAY:
Oh, yeah. I’d come home from a gig. I dropped my bag in the hallway. There was a meeting going on in the living room. And Dennis Wilson was there, maybe Abe Lastfogel [of the William Morris Agency] and Terry and a couple other people.

And I walked into the kitchen to get myself a cold one. And there’s this guy on the kitchen floor, squatting down, leaning against the refrigerator, like a door stop. So I try to open the door. He doesn’t move. I say, ‘Excuse me... Excuse me!’ And he doesn’t budge. And he braces himself against the door, but he doesn’t look at me. He won’t look up. So I walk into the living room and say, ‘Wait a minute, who’s the weird guy in the kitchen?’ And they said, ‘Oh, that’s just Charlie. He’s okay.’

But Charlie wasn’t okay. And after about two or three meetings, I think Terry realized that there was something really wrong with this guy. And Dennis had found him in the desert and brought him up to get him a record deal. But Terry realized something was way too scrambled to work. So he kind of backed out.

People thought that’s why Manson targeted that place, but Terry said Charlie knew he had moved to his beach house. But since he knew the layout, he sent his minions up there. He knew where everything was, how to get in and so on and so forth. But who knows? Charlie won’t tell.

[?]

My own personal tidbit in this hstory: some may know that the "LIE" record, being a bootleg and all, is not copyrighted.

Hmm, I recall an interview with Jim Van Bebber where he said they had to track down the guy that owns the copyright to use music from it in his film The Manson Family.  According to Jim, Phil Kaufman owns it.

[Mike's Beard]

If asked Charlie would no doubt say that no one can own his music.  BTW, has anybody here read the latest Manson book "Charles Manson Now"? It throws some considerable weight into the whole "Charlie didn't do it" theory.

[Ron]

BTW in his newest communication, such as it is, Manson tells us

"They gave what they could, and like you, fell short, just like all the living do.  As for me, myself, Manson, I was born dead and never learned not to love."

http://www.mansondirect.com/

I can't make heads or tales of what he is saying, but, yes, it gives me the creeps.

It gives you the creeps because you allow it to give you the creeps.  All it shows me is a frail old man that isn't a danger to anybody not walking around looking for a reason to go crazy. 

Manipulators like him (he's great at it) do what they do the same way a hypnotist does what he does.  There's no skeptic in the world who can be hypnotized if they truly don't believe in it. 

This is different from a skeptic looking to believe, there are plenty of those too.  Some people will say "oh he can't hypnotize me" but in reality, they're afraid of it, or think that they might, or whatever and therefore are able to be hypnotized.

Anybody who doesn't believe, as a tenant that Charlie Manson is anything other than an asshole will never fall for his charisma/manipulation/whatever the hell you want to call it. 

I agree with the notion further up the thread, he could have used his talent to be a great person, just like anybody can use their talent to be a great person.  He likes to bitch and moan about what a hard upbringing he had, look at somebody like Aretha Franklin, born in a damn shack and became the greatest singer of all time.  Or look at a clown like Dog The Bounty Hunter.  Had a hard upbringing, ended up in jail, and eventually turned it around to where he can use his ego, eccentric behavior, and bad-ass sensibilities to do something halfway good instead of murdering people. 

All of his excuses are the same excuses a 12 year old gives.  Charlie won't be ruling hell or whatever he thinks when he dies,  he's just going to die and rot in the ground like other losers do. 

[Mike's Beard]

Several observations and questions to be considered when looking in to the Manson case.

1/ Why was the incriminating ravings of Sadie Atkins allowed to be published worldwide before the start of the trial? Gag order anyone?
2/ Why was Charlie forbidden to call any witnesses at the trial?
3/ In one of the biggest, most convoluted murder trials of the century, does anyone else find it a bit odd that the first person the Courts appointed to defend Manson was Ronald Hughes, a lawyer who not only had never worked a murder case but had never actually defended anybody period.
4/ Charlie was not allowed to address the jury for fear that he might manipulate and influence their thinking. Isn't that exactly what every lawyer does for a living?
5/ What was the real reason behind the chief prosecutor being mysteriously removed from the trial two thirds of the way in (allowing Buglosi to move centerstage)? Why has he never gone on the record about the case since?
6/ If Charlie was that obsessed with The Beatles, why does none of his music sound even remotely like them? Even the crappiest bar band can do a ham fisted 'beatlesque' knock off in their sleep.
7/ How exactly would killing a B' list actress actually incite a nationwide race war?
8/ Why did it take Sadie roughly 37 years to suddenly remember that Manson threatened to kill her son if she testified against him? Isn't it more likely that when Bugulosi found a much more lucid and credible star witness in Linda Kasabain he just dropped her?
9/ Bobby Beausoleil admitted decades ago that Charlie never told him to kill Hinnman. He was just trying the same old "Charlie hypnotized me into doing it" line that everybody else was copping to, trying to beat a murder rap.
10/ If the plan was to just randomly slaughter everyone in the house, wouldn't Tex and Co have just stormed the property and done just that? Instead the residents were tied up and (with the exception of Sharon Tate) only killed when they attempted escape. And if they were in the house for approx 20 mins, isn't it probable that some form of communication between the two parties was taking place?

Just sayin........

[dennyschild]

I have no idea what happened with Denny and the manson family. I was told by someone I trust with my life that Denny was affected terribly by what happened and never quite got over that nightmare. He said very little about  the situation, but made it clear, It scared him and he was filled with anxiety the rest of his life over manson. When asked questions about manson, he would turn his head away or look down and say. ( I can't go there, It hurts me) He put his hands over his face one time, he said, I never got over that periord of my life and never will. Ok, thats all I know. I wanted to tell you. Believe me or not, i know my sorce is telling the truth. I still have a hard time reading about his time with the manson family, it gives me the chills. I won't let that stop me from learning about his life, there is more good than bad, we have have good and bad, some more than others. Thanks.