TLOS Sound Quality

[hypehat]

As a certified Young Person, i should probably weigh in a little more on this. I still think no-one really gives a toss in the greater public, or even the majority of the musically aware. It's more of a record geek thing, and I don't notice it that much on modern cds. As well as MAF, i can think that 'Yoshimi Battles The Pink Robots', American IV and Animal Collective CDs are too 'hot'. The rest I have no problem listening to. I'm sure on high quality equipment the difference is palpable (i touched on this in the Insignificant Questions thread about Endless Summer - me and my hand-me-down hi-fi can't make duophonic sound terrible.), but that's not how 90% of people listen to, and fall in love, with music.

And this whole 'the kidz musical memories will be overcompressed rubbish' is, frankly, a little bit overdramatic. My White Stripes cd i bought with my pocket money was probably compressed to hell - did i care? no. I also didn't care how 'bad' it sounded on a cheap portable cd player, or a bit later, my brothers iPod with the free earbuds that supposedly sound horrible. Or sticking one headphone in class. When you're that age, music is simply music. Did you care about the pops, skips and scratches on the no-doubt overplayed vinyl of your favourite record as you played it in your bedroom? Bet your dad claimed his old 78s sounded better than those 45s too. It's us obsessives (don't deny it) that care deeply and it's not a bad thing. Excessive compression does ruin music - but just for us, i suspect. The rest of the population really doesn't mind. They should mind, but thats the industries problem, not theirs. No-one except us is going to seek out TLOS vinyl rips, are they? People just buy the CD and get on with it. We're obsessing, and that's what we do.

Egh, a nice big rambling post. This will teach me to post after a couple of Guinness.

[absinthe_boy]

Hypehat, you can hear the difference between a well mastered CD and a brickwalled one on the cheapest of cheapo-crap shop's own value brand CD player. You can hear the difference on a portable TV. You can hear the difference on a 12 year old car stereo system....trust me, that's what we have in our car. You can even hear the difference on laptop speakers.

I've found a surprising number of youtube videos on the subject of brickwalling, compression and the loudness war. Here's one I found interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMNJEC1G-fE&feature=related


As for your comments about people's musical upbringing...I find them quite arrogant. As I said, you can tell the difference between a well produced record and a poorly produced record on the most rudimentary equipment. If all that is available to today's kids is over compressed, autotuned, brickwalled rubbish....that is what they will become accumstomed to.

I suppose I am lucky (or unlucky) in that I took an interest in how recordings sounded very early. I had a record player and cassette recorder from the age of about 5 and would endlessly play around with both to change the sound. By the time I was 10 I had a 4 track tape recorder, the idea was that I'd be able to duet with myself on the violin. This I did, but I also used to lay down 3 tracks, then dump them to one. I thought I'd invented that (early 80's)...little did I know that this 'ping ponging' had been common from the late 60's. I used to mess with tape speeds, I didn't know the theory but I could hear that a faster tape speed produced better sound...especially bass and the highest frequencies. I played with recording levels, I messed with the EQ bias. I learned - with my ears - what could be done with a tape recording to make things sound worse or better. The boredom of an only child perhaps...but it left me with a lifelong appreciation of music and how it sounds.

Am I atypical. Sure, I know I am. But lots of people realise that there is something 'wrong' in modern pop music. Surely all forms of music deserve decent recording, producing and mastering?

[Runaways]

As for your comments about people's musical upbringing...I find them quite arrogant.

 

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I have a rant coming up later  based upon my own studio experience, but I do have a question for those complaining about how today's music sounds...

do you listen to music via headphones predominately or through speakers?

[Jim McShane]

I have a rant coming up later  based upon my own studio experience, but I do have a question for those complaining about how today's music sounds...

do you listen to music via headphones predominately or through speakers?

Probably 90+ % of the time is through speakers in my case.

[absinthe_boy]

95% through speakers. I've never really been a fan of cocooning myself away in headphones.

[Runaways]

i got a pair of nice headphones that i pull out when i wanna hear stuff reaaal nice.  but usually just speakers

[The Heartical Don]

Wonderful thread. Who started this thing of genius?

I bet it wouldn't appear on the Blueboard.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Hypehat, you can hear the difference between a well mastered CD and a brickwalled one on the cheapest of cheapo-crap shop's own value brand CD player. You can hear the difference on a portable TV. You can hear the difference on a 12 year old car stereo system....trust me, that's what we have in our car. You can even hear the difference on laptop speakers.

I've found a surprising number of youtube videos on the subject of brickwalling, compression and the loudness war. Here's one I found interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMNJEC1G-fE&feature=related


As for your comments about people's musical upbringing...I find them quite arrogant. As I said, you can tell the difference between a well produced record and a poorly produced record on the most rudimentary equipment. If all that is available to today's kids is over compressed, autotuned, brickwalled rubbish....that is what they will become accumstomed to.

I suppose I am lucky (or unlucky) in that I took an interest in how recordings sounded very early. I had a record player and cassette recorder from the age of about 5 and would endlessly play around with both to change the sound. By the time I was 10 I had a 4 track tape recorder, the idea was that I'd be able to duet with myself on the violin. This I did, but I also used to lay down 3 tracks, then dump them to one. I thought I'd invented that (early 80's)...little did I know that this 'ping ponging' had been common from the late 60's. I used to mess with tape speeds, I didn't know the theory but I could hear that a faster tape speed produced better sound...especially bass and the highest frequencies. I played with recording levels, I messed with the EQ bias. I learned - with my ears - what could be done with a tape recording to make things sound worse or better. The boredom of an only child perhaps...but it left me with a lifelong appreciation of music and how it sounds.

Am I atypical. Sure, I know I am. But lots of people realise that there is something 'wrong' in modern pop music. Surely all forms of music deserve decent recording, producing and mastering?

'Xactly - when I first started making cassettes for my Walkman (and yes, I am that old - I had one of the very first), I discovered that if you let the level peak at about +3dB, it sounded ... well, just better. Prior to that I religiously monitored to ensure it didn't go into the red ever. And I thought I was going where no man had gone before.

[The Heartical Don]

Hypehat, you can hear the difference between a well mastered CD and a brickwalled one on the cheapest of cheapo-crap shop's own value brand CD player. You can hear the difference on a portable TV. You can hear the difference on a 12 year old car stereo system....trust me, that's what we have in our car. You can even hear the difference on laptop speakers.

I've found a surprising number of youtube videos on the subject of brickwalling, compression and the loudness war. Here's one I found interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMNJEC1G-fE&feature=related


As for your comments about people's musical upbringing...I find them quite arrogant. As I said, you can tell the difference between a well produced record and a poorly produced record on the most rudimentary equipment. If all that is available to today's kids is over compressed, autotuned, brickwalled rubbish....that is what they will become accumstomed to.

I suppose I am lucky (or unlucky) in that I took an interest in how recordings sounded very early. I had a record player and cassette recorder from the age of about 5 and would endlessly play around with both to change the sound. By the time I was 10 I had a 4 track tape recorder, the idea was that I'd be able to duet with myself on the violin. This I did, but I also used to lay down 3 tracks, then dump them to one. I thought I'd invented that (early 80's)...little did I know that this 'ping ponging' had been common from the late 60's. I used to mess with tape speeds, I didn't know the theory but I could hear that a faster tape speed produced better sound...especially bass and the highest frequencies. I played with recording levels, I messed with the EQ bias. I learned - with my ears - what could be done with a tape recording to make things sound worse or better. The boredom of an only child perhaps...but it left me with a lifelong appreciation of music and how it sounds.

Am I atypical. Sure, I know I am. But lots of people realise that there is something 'wrong' in modern pop music. Surely all forms of music deserve decent recording, producing and mastering?

'Xactly - when I first started making cassettes for my Walkman (and yes, I am that old - I had one of the very first), I discovered that if you let the level peak at about +3dB, it sounded ... well, just better. Prior to that I religiously monitored to ensure it didn't go into the red ever. And I thought I was going where no man had gone before.

Lovely call. And I think a decently recorded Compact Cassette can sound wonderful. Well, the format has its obvious weak points, but if kept with care, they are fine things (still have a like-new Sony CC recorder, and use CCs every now and then - just like others use Polaroid cameras).

[hypehat]

I have a rant coming up later  based upon my own studio experience, but I do have a question for those complaining about how today's music sounds...

do you listen to music via headphones predominately or through speakers?

50/50. At home, speakers - not particularly advanced ones. But then i am always with my ipod when i'm out and about, and listen to music on headphones late at night anyway.

Absintheboy, i suppose i had to argue about this with the only 10 year old to have a 4 track  but i can only speak as to my experience, as can you. And when i was a proper dumb pop loving yoof some 4 years ago, i couldn't even tell you what mastering was, let alone point out songs that had terrible mastering. I should probably state i'm 19, to give you some sort of timeframe. I think a lot of kids are the same, because i know a lot of them who still listen to dumb pop music and still don't care about mastering. Their musical memories listening to Gaga will be just as valid as ours listening to Pet Sounds. Mastering doesn't affect that. I sincerely believe that.

Or put it this way - if i gave a 14 year old a 'hot' Beatles remaster and he fell in love with Sgt. Pepper, how much of a fool would i sound telling him that 'it sounds terrible'?  it's their favourite record! They don't care!

I think my post came too far the other way. I sure do care about mastering. I'd be echoing others sentiments here. But a lot of people don't! I can't elaborate as i've got to move house, so there it is....

[absinthe_boy]

Ah compact cassettes.

Very much depended on the quality of the machine, especially its internal amp and heads, and the tape you were using. My first stereo machine was a Realistic (read Tandy/Radio Shack)...their bottom of the range deck from the 1981 catalogue. You couldn't go over 0dB because the circuits couldn't handle it. Later I got my hands on much better kit.

For type I, +3dB was often the best peak to go for with a decent deck. With my old Nakamichi (sadly deceased) and a good type IV I could push to +9dB. With type II you were wise to stay around +1dB as it couldn't handle much more....at least most formulations couldn't. I believe there are no more type IV tapes being produced these days

I have a Yahama cassette deck these days, not as nice as the Nak and definitely a piece of consumer gear which you can pick up cheaply...but it is capable of fine recordings and plays back my old Nak cassettes very well. Its not widely known that Nakamichi used slightly non-standard bias EQ so the play trim pot on the Yamaha comes in very handy.

The humble cassette may have started out as a voice recorder, but over the years technology allowed it to be on the cusp of true hi-fi. Sure, you'll never quite beat a quarter inch machine running at 15ips with a cassette....but note how reel to reel machines disappeared from shelves by 1990.

[Custom Machine]

Ah compact cassettes. ... Its not widely known that Nakamichi used slightly non-standard bias EQ so the play trim pot on the Yamaha comes in very handy.

Perhaps I'm going off on a tangent here, as far as discussing TLOS sound quality, but the above comment that it is not widely known that Nakamichi cassette decks use non-standard EQ is important for anyone using an Nakamichi deck to be aware of. 

Basically, Nakamichi decks apply less high frequency (treble) boost than normal while recording, but apply more high frequency boost than normal in playback.  The result is that tapes recorded on a Nakamichi sound rather dull when played back on other cassette deck brands, while cassettes recorded on other brands sound brighter than normal when played back on a Nakamichi.  Nakamichi stated that they did this in order to help reduce high frequency overload during recording.  A much better solution to this issue was later developed by Dolby, called Dolby HX-Pro, which was found in a number of higher end decks.  Dolby HX-Pro was used only during recording and maintained compatibility between brands, except for Nakamichi. 

Another issue which plagues cassette deck recording and playback is that even slight tape head azimuth misalignment, which is very common between various decks, even of the same model and/or brand, can cause a tape recorded on one unit to sound dull when played back on another.  Add to that tape speed variations between decks, wow and flutter, and tapes getting eaten by a deck - let's just say that while I have some nostalgic memories of the cassette era, I don't at all miss using cassettes as my primary means of recording.

[absinthe_boy]

Oh yes I remember a friend who had two Aiwa ADF-460 decks (if memory serves) and tapes recorded on one didn't play well on the other. Tracked it down to azimuth issues, which were solved with judicious use of a screwdriver and oscilloscope.

As another aside, I once did back to back tests on C60, C90 and C120 tapes of the same type (Maxell UR) using a signal generator to record sine waves from 25Hz to 25KHz, and a 'scope to examine playback. No doubting the thinner (longer duration) tapes had a significantly poorer high end response, noticable even at 12KHz. Dolby helped the problem, never tried HX-Pro with that experiment.

I guess I am just a geek!

[Mike's Beard]

I just wish to go on the record and say that cassette Walkman's were a conspiracy cooked up by the music industry to force you to buy the same albums over and over! I don't think I ever owned one that didn't chew up at least one tape in every ten.

[filledeplage]

Oh yes I remember a friend who had two Aiwa ADF-460 decks (if memory serves) and tapes recorded on one didn't play well on the other. Tracked it down to azimuth issues, which were solved with judicious use of a screwdriver and oscilloscope.

As another aside, I once did back to back tests on C60, C90 and C120 tapes of the same type (Maxell UR) using a signal generator to record sine waves from 25Hz to 25KHz, and a 'scope to examine playback. No doubting the thinner (longer duration) tapes had a significantly poorer high end response, noticable even at 12KHz. Dolby helped the problem, never tried HX-Pro with that experiment.

I guess I am just a geek!

Glad you are an informed "geek" - you know what you are talking about!

Bravo~!

I learned a lot in this thread, especially about Dylan doing his own work, under an assumed name, just like a "revolutionary!" 

A smart person "knows the difference" in quality and strives for it regardless of the prevailing thought, and trends.

You know the difference.   
 

[The Heartical Don]

filledeplage wrote:

A smart person "knows the difference" in quality and strives for it regardless of the prevailing thought, and trends.

How did you get to know my life's motto?

[filledeplage]

filledeplage wrote:

A smart person "knows the difference" in quality and strives for it regardless of the prevailing thought, and trends.

How did you get to know my life's motto?

Ditto for you! 

[The Heartical Don]

filledeplage wrote:

A smart person "knows the difference" in quality and strives for it regardless of the prevailing thought, and trends.

How did you get to know my life's motto?

Ditto for you! 

  Let's marry!

[absinthe_boy]

You two......get a room!

[The Heartical Don]

You two......get a room!

We did. It was so-so. A second time will be necessary.

[filledeplage]

You two......get a room!

We did. It was so-so. A second time will be necessary.

Your boy, Columbo (your icon) would be so disappointed that you "took the bait!"

You two, are hilarious!   

[The Heartical Don]

You two......get a room!

We did. It was so-so. A second time will be necessary.

Your boy, Columbo (your icon) would be so disappointed that you "took the bait!"

You two, are hilarious!   

  thank you, ma'am. There's just one more thing that bothers me...

[filledeplage]

You two......get a room!

We did. It was so-so. A second time will be necessary.

Your boy, Columbo (your icon) would be so disappointed that you "took the bait!"

You two, are hilarious!   

  thank you, ma'am. There's just one more thing that bothers me...

And the brilliant "closing lines" of his investigatory script...in his rumpled trench-coat...(and we so "off'-topic!")

I would never risk losing this enlightening musical discourse...

[The Heartical Don]

You two......get a room!

We did. It was so-so. A second time will be necessary.

Your boy, Columbo (your icon) would be so disappointed that you "took the bait!"

You two, are hilarious!   

  thank you, ma'am. There's just one more thing that bothers me...

And the brilliant "closing lines" of his investigatory script...in his rumpled trench-coat...(and we so "off'-topic!")

I would never risk losing this enlightening musical discourse...

...what bothers me, ma'am: how is it possible that with all the modern studio wizardry, all that equipment, and all those well-trained engineers, TLOS in its European incarnation sounds so absolutely terrible and off-putting?